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Wii

Super Meat Boy WiiWare Cancelled

by Pedro Hernandez - December 24, 2010, 3:02 pm PST
Total comments: 82 Source: (Team Meat Twitter), http://twitter.com/SuperMeatBoy/status/18065209377...

Retail version of the title not likely either. Update: Cancellation due to size limit on WiiWare.

Super Meat Boy developers Team Meat have announced on their Twitter page that the WiiWare version of their title, the first platform for which the game was announced, has been cancelled. The game has seen many delays due to WiiWare's size restrictions, forcing the team to move the game to Xbox Live Arcade and PC where it has received critical success.

In addition, the team confirms that while things are looking grim, they are interested in creating a retail version of the title but this seems unlikely at the moment.

Update: Team Meat have told Joystiq the reasons behind the cancellation of the WiiWare release. It comes down to the fact the the game will not fit within the 40MB size limit for WiiWare titles.

Designer Edmund McMillen said, "We knew of the limits early on but overestimated our ability to get Nintendo to raise the file size. It's lame that there is a 40MB cap on WiiWare games... but it was our fault for blindly assuming this cap wasn't set in stone, and we are sorry for that."

Were the game to be released on WiiWare, it would have no leaderboards, Dark World levels or downloadable content. Music tracks would be limited to six in total, and boss fights and cutscenes would have no audio. Team Meat were not wiling to compromise the game content found they were unable to compile a satisfactory version that fit within the size limit.

McMillen confirms Nintendo's strict policy on WiiWare size adding, "Probably, honestly we got so lost in making a cool game we totally forgot about how strict the limitations for the Wii were, we just wanted to make something huge and the game got a little out of control."

Talkback

vuduDecember 23, 2010

I'd be so pissed right now if I didn't buy the game a couple days ago on Steam.

I'm normally not one to complain about Nintendo's inane policies, but this sucks.

Kytim89December 23, 2010

I am getting sick of the file restriction on the Wii and this is why I am looking forward to the Wii 2. I guess Nintendo did not provide a wavor for this game?

leroypantweatherDecember 23, 2010

just when i thought i was going to pop my wii ware cherry, i get this kick to the face

TheFleeceDecember 23, 2010

I'm not sure if there was a Wiiware game that I looked forward to playing that was cancelled because of it's file size. This is messed up. It feels like the corners that Nintendo cuts fans would rather walk. They really messed up online everything for the Wii and it's going to take another console to make up for it, which shouldn't be the case. At least Meat Boy is available for more than one system.

TJ SpykeDecember 23, 2010

Having played the XBLA demo, I find it hard to believe they couldn't have fit it in 40MB. Obviously they would know more since it's there game, but I hope they do go through with the idea of making it a retail release (which they mentioned a few months ago).

It would have been nice of them to announce this when people still had a chance to buy it on sale on Steam for $3.75.

ThePermDecember 23, 2010

when porting games to wiiware go midi

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 23, 2010

Can someone remind us all again how big the entire Super Mario All Stars ROM is?

TJ SpykeDecember 23, 2010

Not sure about the Wii one, but the original SNES cartridge was 2 Megabytes (16 megabits).

BboyDecember 23, 2010

Can someone explain to me why the limit even exists? Are they just so cheap they aren't even willing to pay for servers or something?

Kytim89December 23, 2010

It seems to me as though the file restriction is going to become increasingly common as indie develped games continue to grow in a similar way to Super Meat Boy is that the Wiiware service will lose quality titles. The service will be relegated to smaller titles that will eventually over saturate Wiiware and people will lose interest because there was never any room for qualitative expansion.

Can I...can I at least get a PSN version?

Luigi DudeDecember 23, 2010

Quote from: Halbred

Can I...can I at least get a PSN version?

http://twitter.com/SuperMeatBoy/status/18065386889019392#

Quote:

ATTENTION: we have no beef with ps3, we cant ever do a ps3 version because of our contract with MS.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 23, 2010

Quote from: TJ

Not sure about the Wii one, but the original SNES cartridge was 2 Megabytes (16 megabits).

So, Super Mario All-Stars, which holds four platforming games (plus the "Battle Mode" - the original Mario Bros.), roughly 200 levels, one of the greatest platformers of all time (SMB3), along with a wide variety of level design, music, power-ups, enemies, etc., etc...  fit in less than half of the WiiWare file restriction?

Curious, how big is the All Stars + Super Mario World version? :D

TJ SpykeDecember 23, 2010

Quote from: UncleBob

Quote from: TJ

Not sure about the Wii one, but the original SNES cartridge was 2 Megabytes (16 megabits).

So, Super Mario All-Stars, which holds four platforming games (plus the "Battle Mode" - the original Mario Bros.), roughly 200 levels, one of the greatest platformers of all time (SMB3), along with a wide variety of level design, music, power-ups, enemies, etc., etc...  fit in less than half of the WiiWare file restriction?

Curious, how big is the All Stars + Super Mario World version? :D

About 1/20th of the limit.

Just for those actually wondering, SMAS + SMW is about 2.5 Megabytes.

Mop it upDecember 23, 2010

Quote from: Bboy

Can someone explain to me why the limit even exists? Are they just so cheap they aren't even willing to pay for servers or something?

There's no official answer, but it appears to be a technical limitation of the system, which seems to download the game into the RAM before saving it to the internal flash. Even if the limit could be raised, it wouldn't be very much, since the system has so little internal memory.

Quote from: UncleBob

Can someone remind us all again how big the entire Super Mario All Stars ROM is?

I see your point, but companies shouldn't have to heavily compress their games just to fit within an arbitrary size limit.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 23, 2010

Quote from: TJ

About 1/20th of the limit.

Just for those actually wondering, SMAS + SMW is about 2.5 Megabytes.

Bytes, bits, it's all confusing... :D

Quote from: Mop

Quote from: UncleBob

Can someone remind us all again how big the entire Super Mario All Stars ROM is?

I see your point, but companies shouldn't have to heavily compress their games just to fit within an arbitrary size limit.

Considering you just explained that (as far as we all know), it's a technical limitation - then it's hardly an arbitrary limitation, now is it? :)

Mop it upDecember 23, 2010

Eh, maybe, but the size limit could have been easily prevented if Nintendo had any foresight in designing the Wii, whereas back in 1993 it would cost a lot of money to use a cartridge larger than 2MB.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 23, 2010

Quote from: Mop

Eh, maybe, but the size limit could have been easily prevented if Nintendo had any foresight in designing the Wii, whereas back in 1993 it would cost a lot of money to use a cartridge larger than 2MB.

I won't argue that point.  But, did developers throw up their hands and QQ because they were limited to 2MB carts, or did they design some of the most kick-ass games around?

TJ SpykeDecember 23, 2010

Actually, many SNES games were larger than that. The largest SNES games were 6 Megabytes (no surprise that those were RPGs: Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean. Still, the fact that Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island was only 2 megabytes shows that you can make a technically impressive game and make it be small.

Mop it upDecember 23, 2010

Developers didn't complain about the size of cartridges for several reasons. Firstly, the size of the cartridges of the time were plenty large enough compared to the system's capabilities, so most companies couldn't create games that needed more space than the cartridge sizes available anyway. The Wii is designed with a 4.7GB disc in mind as its primary storage medium, so if you have to limit yourself to a mere fraction of that (somewhere around 1/100th the space? Maybe less), you can't really utilize the system's capabilities. Secondly, developers didn't really have an alternative to the small size of cartridges, as the SNES and Genesis were basically the whole gaming market. Sure there were a couple of CD systems available, but they sold poorly and were not a viable platform to make money. Today, the XBox 360, PS3, and PC provide a much more lucrative platform than the Wii, so developers are justified with their complaints of its limitations, and they will move to whatever platform can satisfy their needs.

Also of note, the Internet didn't really exist back in the day so developers didn't have a window to go and speak out to the world. I'm sure we would have heard a lot more complaining, such as about Nintendo's policies from the time and other things, if it did exist.

DasmosDecember 24, 2010

This really shits me off. I don't want to buy this game on the shitty PC, that's hardly any fun. Also if MS could build a fucking console that doesn't break every 2 seconds I would have been able to pick this up for XBLA.

This is a chunk of horseshit.

PlugabugzDecember 24, 2010

I have a Wii and a PS3. It's coming to neither. No money to them.

Retro DeckadesDecember 24, 2010

The blame has to lie somewhere. While both Team Meat and Nintendo may share it, I'm more inclined to blame Nintendo for their ridiculously inferior so-called storage "solution", but moreso for their downright lack of caring. Whereas Microsoft recognized the potential of this game and set out to ensure that their gamers could experience it, Nintendo didn't give two shits. If I want to download only one game from the WiiWare service and have it take up the majority of my Wii's memory, then that should be my perogative.

It's probably a combination of a couple of factors.  Firstly, Nintendo's size limit on WiiWare games.  Secondly, the fact that Team Meat probably COULD have worked to cram it all in there, but they probably sized up the situation and decided that the extra time and effort wasn't worth it from a business perspective.  I mean, it's not like Nintendo is going to do stuff like make a demo for the game, or advertise it beyond maybe the Nintendo channel.

There just isn't much incentive for independent developers to work with Nintendo on WiiWare titles, and it really sucks.

coffeewithgamesDecember 24, 2010

"I mean, it's not like Nintendo is going to do stuff like make a demo for the game, or advertise it beyond maybe the Nintendo channel."

Well, Nintendo is improving slowly in the demo department, so I wouldn't say dismissing a demo is correct.
The demo situation though, is up to the developers from what I understand...and they must make and submit it to Nintendo for approval.

happyastoriaDecember 24, 2010

Hmmmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this game first being developed for the Wii? Also, I swear it was Nintendo that went up to Team Meat to make this game, so that makes Team Meat a bunch of backstabbers? Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

ejamerDecember 24, 2010

Lindy has a great post, and hits the very heart of the matter.  While surely possible to compress the game with enough effort, it apparently isn't worthwhile for Team Meat (especially if the 360/PC versions are already available and selling) to make that extra effort.  Business decisions aren't always what gamers want... but they really are what drives development.


One thing I don't understand, however, is blame being placed on Nintendo.  The limit for WiiWare sucks, and I'm not giving them a free pass there... but that limit was CLEARLY understood when Super Meat Boy was starting development.

What upsets me is how Team Meat announced the game first on WiiWare, publicized the game for months on that service (although I don't recall them ever talking about it being "exclusive" and don't believe any such claims), and then created a game that ignored all known limitations of the system.  It's not smart development, it's not smart marketing*, and it's annoying as piss to people who actually believed the game would come out on Wii.

*This is debatable.  Maybe it's smart marketing to get your name out as much as possible, and it certainly seemed to build anticipation and hype for Super Meat Boy before release.  It also left a lot of people disappointed and/or upset with Team Meat though.


From a total fanboy perspective, it feels like a money-hat situation.  Their contract with MS prevents PSN release, and (oops!) the game doesn't fit on Wii and isn't worth spending time and effort to compress.  At least it's not a surprise: all signs have been pointing this way for months now.  As a Wii-only gamer (due to budget, not choice), Team Meat is on my blacklist by default.  Screw them - I've already got more games than I have time for, so why care about small dev studios who choose not to meet their promises?

happyastoriaDecember 24, 2010

I would like to share a comment posted on Destructoid:

"Nintendo came to them to ask for a bigger version of Super Meat Boy, and they were to develop for them a WiiWare version.  http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/indie-queue/5931-Indie-Queue-Meat-Boy-Gets-Supersized

They haven't given Nintendo ANYTHING.  ANYTHING.  Instead, they developed for the XBLA, and released a PC port which I've heard was bug riddled, and now they're saying "Oh, Nintendo's file size restrictions are the problems" and not the fact that they didn't develop for the system, like they were supposed to.

They owe Nintendo SOMETHING for their success, as they really wouldn't have Super Meat Boy without them.

I don't care if a Nintendo release would result in a loss of profit, it needs to happen.  It's the least they can do, since they wouldn't have made the damn game in the first place if Nintendo didn't come forward in asking for a game.  I understand why Team Meat doesn't want the game chopped up, but it's pretty shortsighted of them to be asked to make a game for a console, and not pay attention to the maximum file size.  In fact, it's stupid.

Don't shaft Nintendo, Team Meat, they're the only reason you've had your success."

He makes a lot of good points.

broodwarsDecember 24, 2010

Figures.  Nintendo puts out a digital download service infamously unfriendly to small developers (between the file size limit, the lack of marketing, and until recently the lack of demos), a small developer finds it's not worth it to make a bastardized version of the game for that service, and naturally people blame the developer.  Guys, we've been hearing complaints from small developers about the problems with WiiWare for years.  Remember when Telltale Games was complaining about the many issues with WiiWare when they were releasing Monkey Island (they even named a location in the game after one such problem)?  Yeah, they saw that WiiWare wasn't going to work out, so they took their game to a service where the console maker actually gives a damn if they succeed.  Oh yeah, let's blame the developers for Nintendo's lack of interest in putting out a service that suits anyone else's needs than their own.

ejamerDecember 24, 2010

@broodwars:
Don't you think that TellTale Games is a bad example though?  They are another company that doesn't know how to compress games well, and haven't even put in enough polish to even have their games run well on the (considerably more powerful) 360.  And let's not even start talking about pricing of those downloadable episodes...

Nintendo's downloadable service has one huge flaw: Nintendo hasn't been involved enough in promoting and advertising the service and the games available.  File size restrictions aren't the end of the world when it's a known factor going in, and there are numerous examples of small developers who claim that Nintendo has been very good to work with during the development process.  All of this was known before Super Meat Boy was announced as an upcoming WiiWare title.



@happyastoria:
The reason Team Meat has experienced success is because their game is (by all accounts) very good and worth playing.  They don't owe Nintendo anything in that regard, as far as I can tell, and deserve whatever success they might find.  The sentiment and sense of disappointment is something that I can certainly relate to though!

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterDecember 24, 2010

Quote from: broodwars

Figures.  Nintendo puts out a digital download service infamously unfriendly to small developers (between the file size limit, the lack of marketing, and until recently the lack of demos), a small developer finds it's not worth it to make a bastardized version of the game for that service, and naturally people blame the developer.  Guys, we've been hearing complaints from small developers about the problems with WiiWare for years.  Remember when Telltale Games was complaining about the many issues with WiiWare when they were releasing Monkey Island (they even named a location in the game after one such problem)?  Yeah, they saw that WiiWare wasn't going to work out, so they took their game to a service where the console maker actually gives a damn if they succeed.  Oh yeah, let's blame the developers for Nintendo's lack of interest in putting out a service that suits anyone else's needs than their own.

This.

I am sorry guys, while I do agree that Team Meat made mistakes, I think Nintendo is the bigger culprit here. Team Meat LOVED Nintendo, BELIEVED in the WiiWare service. They kept singing its praises back in the day, just like many other indie developers did. Nintendo sold them a dream that they would limit in the end.

Truth is Nintendo kept botching up WiiWare. Yes, we have a storage solution, but the size limitations remain the same. Yes, we have demos but they are only for a limited time. I mean, they are so limited that Gaijin Games told people to buy their games so they can rate them on the Nintendo channel and thus the demo stays there FOR TWO MORE WEEKS. Most people that buy the Wii have no idea that it can connect online and download games. The advertising for WiiWare games suck. A trailer on the Nintendo Channel for a week and POOF, its gone. Developers would have to rely on luck and word of mouth just to get sales. Finally, even if the game gets a lot of promotion and great ratings the chances for success are small, especially when you compete against killer apps like My Aquarium and The Hungry Caterpillar.

Team Meat is not a big company with disposable income like Activision and EA. They NEED the money in order to keep creating games. It's very likely that they saw that the grass WAS indeed greener on the Xbox and PC side and decided to give that a chance, and they have seen a much deserved success there. To me, this isn't about them screwing over. Yes it sucks that Nintendo fans won't be able to play it on the Wii but with the economy in such a bad state right now developers need to SURVIVE first and foremost.


Also, Team Meat should have the right to create the game they want to create. Obviously, their vision of the game is bigger than the WiiWare service allows it to. A lot are saying "hey, compress that fucker!", but there's more to it than that. Compressing is an ideal solution, but they would still need to cut out a lot of stuff just to make it happen. They simply don't want a botched idea of their product.

Seriously people, stop trying to paint Nintendo as the main victim here. They have made many mistakes that have affected many developers, and Team Meat is just another cautionary tale for everyone to take note of.

Ryan CannonDecember 24, 2010

Well this sucks, this was one Wiiware game I was getting excited about, because lately a lot of them have sucked! I guess moving to the Xbox was a good move, and the Computer because almost everyone has one. but i would rather play this game on a system. *sigh* maybe they should make the game bigger and better and then release it for the 3DS. of course that would take time and money, but I know I would buy it. unless of coarse they made it an iphone app

Killer_Man_JaroTom Malina, Associate Editor (Europe)December 24, 2010

I'd be lying if I said I was surprised, but this is deeply unfortunate if this was the only version you had access to (glad I got Super Meat Boy off Steam while it was cheap). The 40MB limit has made no sense since the SD Card patch -- with all the extra gigabytes to work with, file size should be irrelevant.

MorariDecember 24, 2010

Super Meat Boy is insanely fun. It's not very demanding on your system either. Seriously, who doesn't have a PC nowadays? No one is being deprived of the game except for maybe Nintendo themselves. And you know what, I don't think that it bothers Nintendo at all. Nintendo only cares about catering to their own games and to Hell with everyone else, fans and consumers included. What's ironic is that the game is so full of references and allusions, that you'd expect it to have been originally released on the SNES.

I do wish that they hadn't limited the unlockable characters to specific platforms however. As much as I enjoy the Minecraft guy, I really wanted to play around with Tim from Braid.

First off, Nintendo's attempt at demos is improving, but it still a joke compared to XBLA and PSN. Yes, they're making larges strides in the right direction, but it still sucks.

Second, from talking to the guys at Team Meat a few times, this is the story of the game's genesis:
Nintendo met with Edmund at GDC or something along those lines. Nintendo told them to contact them later. Team Meat contacted them later, and then after some discussion, Super Meat Boy came into existence.
I also know from talking to them that the XBLA release was in the works for a long time, but because of Microsoft's policies, they couldn't announce it until closer to release.

Also, that article that someone linked to before has a line in it that makes me feel bad for Team Meat. They had to scrap together for a Wii dev kit, which ain't exactly cheap. Yes, Nintendo might have suggested that they make Super Meat Boy, but Team Meat actually invested a lot of time and money into Wii development.
I could suggest to the dude who made VVVVVV that he makes Super VVVVVV for consoles, but I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape if the game comes out on XBLA and not WiiWare. I have no real investment in the game; I just think it would be cool. I'm inclined to believe from what I've read that that is all that Nintendo did.

TJ SpykeDecember 24, 2010

A Wii dev kit is $2,000, which is super cheap as far as dev kits go.

Retro DeckadesDecember 24, 2010

Quote from: TJ

A Wii dev kit is $2,000, which is super cheap as far as dev kits go.

$2,000 + the money needed to rent/own a location that has a different address than your residential one.

ejamerDecember 24, 2010

Quote from: NWR_pap64

...

Seriously people, stop trying to paint Nintendo as the main victim here. They have made many mistakes that have affected many developers, and Team Meat is just another cautionary tale for everyone to take note of.

A good question: who is the "victim"?  Not Nintendo, who (at most) might like Super Meat Boy to be on their console as another small flag to wave in an effort to prove the service isn't severely flawed for indie devs.  Certainly not Team Meat, who are making the decisions necessary to earn enough money from their development effort regardless of what announcements were made earlier.  The only victim that I see are people who actually believed the game would be coming out on WiiWare as stated, people who wanted to play the game exclusively on that platform...


It is funny to see how many people need to draw lines and point fingers at one side or the other being at fault.  For everyone trying to paint Nintendo as a victim, there is someone else painting them as a villain.  In actuality, they don't fit either role, aren't really even involved in this particular decision, and probably don't care that much about the whole thing.

Luigi DudeDecember 24, 2010

Well Nintendo has admitted that their current online system sucks and they're looking for ways to improve it for their next systems.  The problem with this though is they've basically written it off as a lost cause now and would rather just start over on their next system then try to fix the current one.

So if we're lucky, maybe Super Meat Boy will be able to show up on the 3DS since if Nintendo seriously made the 3DS with third parties in mind then I'd imagine it'll have a higher size limit for digital download games then the Wii does.

I would love to have the game in portable form. Even though I already own it on XBLA and Steam, I'd buy it again if it came to 3DS.

TheFleeceDecember 24, 2010

Some quotes from a Joystiq article:

"We knew of the limits early on but overestimated our ability to get Nintendo to raise the file size," McMillen said. "It's lame that there is a 40MB cap on WiiWare games ... but it was our fault for blindly assuming this cap wasn't set in stone, and we are sorry for that." McMillen added that the team's finances would take a hit after the file-size showdown, but it wouldn't wither their support of Nintendo platforms in the future.

"Right now we have talked to three larger publishers who have passed on the title because they believe Wii retail is a bad idea profit wise. Most places we have talked to believe that only Nintendo brand games sell well on their system and don't even understand why we want to release Wii retail."

When asked if Super Meat Boy's problematic squishing crisis could have been foreseen back in 2009, Edmund gave us this answer: "Probably, honestly we got so lost in making a cool game we totally forgot about how strict the limitations for the Wii were, we just wanted to make something huge and the game got a little out of control."

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/24/super-meat-boy-what-went-wrong-with-wiiware/

AdrockDecember 24, 2010

The victim, I would say, are the Wii owners who want the game but can't play it. If the reason they can't play it is because of Nintendo's silly policies and limited online vision, then Nintendo is pretty much the villain here, assuming one has a need to point fingers. Honestly, the best way to send a message to Nintendo is with your wallets. Unfortunately, most of us aren't willing to do that. I might detest many of Nintendo's boneheaded moves, but I'm not going to not buy Zelda. Nintendo is and always will be in the driver's seat. Their ability to produce phenomenal software will ensure that they remain profitable which, in turn, ensures their ability to sell mediocre hardware and enforce facepalm inducing policies. Conventional wisdom would suggest that someone at Nintendo would have learned years ago that they're making significantly less money by being so.... well, Nintendo. I still have high hopes for 3DS... though part of me feels like a beaten wife going back to her abusive husband who will never learn.

TJ SpykeDecember 24, 2010

Nintendo is not the villain here, at all. The cap size has been known for years, so don't get mad at them because a developer didn't want to make a game that size. If anything, Team Meat is the villain because they announced it as a WiiWare game, then said they would release the game with few features, then said they wouldn't bother. Team Meat look worse in this situation.

AdrockDecember 24, 2010

So, wait... You're seriously chastising Team Meat for deciding to add a bunch of stuff to make their game better, something we all hope for, if not flat-out expect, from every decent developer. What is this? I don't even....

In 2006, Xbox Live Arcade used to have a 50MB limit. When Konami said they couldn't fit Symphony of the Night within those limitations, Microsoft actually increased the limit just for the game which seems like peanuts now considering the current limit is something like 2GB. For a company like Nintendo that values quality above all else, it's absolutely ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical, for Nintendo to force or even politely ask any developer to sacrifice their vision of a particular game because of a file size limit. Nintendo could simply... oh, I don't know, lift that restriction. What exactly does Nintendo have to lose? (Hint: nothing) When 3rd parties have all but abandoned the Wii for greener pastures, you'd think Nintendo would be a little more flexible when any company willingly offers their services. Given these circumstances, I'm a little surprised Nintendo even allowed WayForward to sell Shantae: Risky's Revenge for 1200 Points earlier this year.

TJ SpykeDecember 24, 2010

They announced it as a WiiWare game, then bitched about it being too big but saying they would make it fit, now basically telling Wii owners "F*** you, we don't want to put the effort in". They knew the cap size but chose to ignore it because they thought Nintendo would give them (some third party developer that no one had even heard of before this game) permission to go above it.

Microsoft is determined to take Sony down no matter what the cost, that is why they let Konami go up the cap limit on XBLA for the game.

leroypantweatherDecember 24, 2010

so for all the linux running wii owning ps3 playing gamers out there, we gets noooooooooo love,  booooooooooooo team meat booooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

The 50 MB cap for XBLA games was based on the idea that there were people with 360s without hard drives, and the original memory cards Microsoft sold for the system were 64 MB, so Microsoft set the limit so any game would fit on one of them. The initial raise of the limit was, as TJ Spyke said, to prevent Symphony of the Nighht from being exclusive to PSN. Over time the proportion of 360 owners without hard drives has dwindled, and that combined with newer firmware allowing people to use any USB drive as storage has let them increase the limit.

I think the idea that the 40 MB limit is something that Nintendo can't change because of how they designed the system is the only one that makes any sense at this point. Nintendo is an incredibly stubborn company, but I truly believe they would have upped the limit by this point if they could. If this is indeed the case, the best we can hope for is that they were smart enough to design the 3DS (and all future systems) in a way that it wouldn't be a problem.

Looking for a villain in this isn't going to help anything. Nintendo made some boneheaded, shortsighted mistakes when designing the Wii hardware, but there isn't really anything they can do at this point. Team Meat made an amazing game, but it's too big to fit on WiiWare, and they'd rather not release it than cut a whole bunch of stuff out of it to make it fit. I understand why someone with no other way to play it would be upset about that, but if they're not comfortable releasing what they feel is an inferior version of their product, I respect their artistic integrity.

I urge everyone here who hasn't already done so to play this game on one of the other platforms; don't let bad feelings toward the developer prevent you from playing what I consider to be one of the absolute best games of 2010.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 24, 2010

Quote from: Adrock

So, wait... You're seriously chastising Team Meat for deciding to add a bunch of stuff to make their game better, something we all hope for, if not flat-out expect, from every decent developer.

Game isn't better if I can't play it.

MorariDecember 24, 2010

Quote from: UncleBob

Game isn't better if I can't play it.

You own a PC, I'm assuming? Play it there in its full glory. Otherwise, you're simply limiting yourself by insisting that the Wii receive a gutted release.

That said, this limitation is pretty ridiculous. Certainly the Wii would be forced to have a limit simply due to the small amount of RAM, but 40mb is asinine. SD media is too slow to outright run the games off of. Perhaps we should have been given the ability to hook up USB hard drives instead? Regardless, it's becoming near impossible to defend the Wii anymore. Nintendo designs their systems for their games and doesn't care whether or not it's flexible enough for others. Hell, even most of Nintendo's own efforts have had pathetically tacked-on motion controls. Now they're setting their sights on 3D gimmicks? Yeah...

Guitar SmasherDecember 24, 2010

There's blame to go around to all parties.

Sure Nintendo could have designed the system to be capable of handling larger games.  But it can't be easy to guess what developers want to do several years down the road.  The best you can do is decide what kinds of games you picture being released, and decide what constraints will be necessary.  That said, I'm pretty confident this game could have been released, if the development was properly managed.

As for the development team, is this their very first project?  Constraints are a fact of life that every project is subjected to.  The spirit with which they aimed to make the game better and better should be applauded, but management should have kept them within their boundaries.  It doesn't matter whether you're an indie dev or a major player - selling the game is all that matters.  They've wasted a bunch of time and money; hopefully they learn from this experience.

What I find interesting is the outcry against Nintendo for not allowing a one-time size allowance.  I can understand how gamers are upset that they won't get to play the game, but think about the big picture.  How many devs would be pissed off if Nintendo did make this exception, when they wouldn't before?  For an industry that already has perceptions that Nintendo only does what's best for themselves, siding with a single developer over all others would only worsen the situation.

I'm not surprised to see such a passionate response to this news. It really sucks for Wii owners who have been waiting a long time to play Super Meat Boy on that platform. If you have the capability to play it on a different platform, do not hesitate to do so. It is a spectacular game that can be acquired for a ridiculously low price (even at the standard rate of $15, it's a steal).


The comparison to Super Mario All-Stars is, frankly, asinine. That game is rendered at 240i and upscaled to 480p by the Wii emulator. Super Meat Boy is a similarly expansive game with art assets rendered at 480p (and even higher on the HD platforms). The music is also quite a bit more complex; I don't know if it is already programmed in MIDI (with more channels and instruments than SNES could produce) or would have to be scripted in that format for WiiWare, which could be a very complex process. All-Stars was also coded by a huge team of veteran game developers at Nintendo, some of whom were probably involved in the hardware design. Team Meat is a tiny group of independent developers using stock Wii development kits. They are not necessarily experts in file size optimization, nor should such expertise be necessary in any reasonable development environment since the advent of disc-based media and digital distribution for a freaking 2D platformer.

AdrockDecember 25, 2010

Quote from: TJ

They announced it as a WiiWare game, then bitched about it being too big but saying they would make it fit, now basically telling Wii owners "F*** you, we don't want to put the effort in". They knew the cap size but chose to ignore it because they thought Nintendo would give them (some third party developer that no one had even heard of before this game) permission to go above it.

It's unfair to say they didn't "put the effort in" because by all counts, they did everything to make their game the best it could be. I'm aware that the development team overstepped their boundaries due, in part, by poor management. However, they made the game the best they could and they shouldn't compromise their game just to fit a file size limit. That's something Nintendo would never do themselves so, in the interest of fairness, they shouldn't be imposing that on other developers. Of course, it's their system to do as they please but ultimately, the people who bought their console are losing out on a great game. This is less about who is to blame (though I would place it more on Nintendo's shoulders for reasons already stated) and more about Wii owners who don't get to play the game on the Wii.

Quote:

Microsoft is determined to take Sony down no matter what the cost, that is why they let Konami go up the cap limit on XBLA for the game.

Obviously. Who said that wasn't the reason? The point is that Microsoft increased the limit because there was no reason to impose it for a game that only helped their platform which inevitably means Microsoft makes more money. There was no downside to increasing the limit. In Super Meat Boy's case, Nintendo basically hands Microsoft a game that has a lot of positive buzz surrounding it. Who loses? Nintendo and Wii owners. How does that help Nintendo at all? Nintendo should want this game on their platform. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Quote from: UncleBob

Game isn't better if I can't play it.

Except you can play it... just not on the Wii.

Retro DeckadesDecember 25, 2010

Quote from: Adrock

That's something Nintendo would never do themselves so, in the interest of fairness, they shouldn't be imposing that on other developers.

There was no downside to increasing the limit. In Super Meat Boy's case, Nintendo basically hands Microsoft a game that has a lot of positive buzz surrounding it. Who loses? Nintendo and Wii owners. How does that help Nintendo at all? Nintendo should want this game on their platform. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I have to agree with this. I am simply incapable of comprehending those who are blaming Team Meat for wanting to make a more robust game. If such a size limit were imposed on a game such as Zelda, I would not be at all happy to hear that Nintendo would have to downsize their grand vision into something much smaller.

I haven't seen Nintendo show nearly the interest Microsoft has in getting developers to make games for their service. Both are obviously driven by the all mighty dollar, but on Nintendo's side it's as though they just don't care -- they just want to sell a lot of dev kits, which I don't even think they make all that easy since you need to have a business address that is different from your residential address. That, coupled with the seemingly arbitrary file-size limit, can't help but make me think that Nintendo could deliver such games to Wii owners if they truly wanted to. The only time they seem to take an active role is when they can considerably profit from a release, such as publishing a game like Fluidity.

TJ SpykeDecember 25, 2010

Team Meat knew the limit before they started the game and admit that they just ignored it on purpose, so it is easy to see why they are to blame. The Zelda team would develop the game knowing they had 8.7 GB to work with, Team Meat should have made the game for the 40 MB limit rather than be delusional and think Nintendo would let them go over (and this could have happened by asking Nintendo early on). That is fact, they were making this as a WiiWare game but chose to ignore the cap size.

Adrock, I was referring to them not wanting to put the effort to fitting it in 40 MB, especially since they had previously said they could do it (it would just feature less music).

Retro DeckadesDecember 25, 2010

Quote from: TJ

Team Meat knew the limit before they started the game and admit that they just ignored it on purpose, so it is easy to see why they are to blame.

The Zelda team would develop the game knowing they had 8.7 GB to work with

I cannot blame Team Meat for viewing the size limit as I do -- pointless and arbitrary. If they didn't think that it was simply some stupid regulation that has little to do with the limitations of the Wii, then why wouldn't someone think that it could possibly be removed? Nintendo's bull-headedness is nothing new (there is far more precedent there).

There are solutions which would have helped this, such as the previously mentioned hard drive, but in that case the Wii is basically the airport of consoles -- basic freedoms are being sacrificed for the sake of crazy levels of security.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Nintendo saying that when a game would have to exceed their hardware's limitations, then they begin to develop new hardware on which to run it. Unfortunately, Team Meat does not have this luxury.

AdrockDecember 25, 2010

Quote from: TJ

Adrock, I was referring to them not wanting to put the effort to fitting it in 40 MB, especially since they had previously said they could do it (it would just feature less music).

I get what you're saying, but it still makes no sense to me. The only reason the game went over 40MB (according to the internetz, the XBLA version is 90.4MB) is because Team Meat added a bunch of stuff and made a better game. You're basically saying, "Put even more effort into development by taking content out to make a shittier overall game." Then, people would be pissed off that Super Meat Boy is worse on WiiWare than it is on Xbox Live Arcade rather than being glad they even got the game. Even if you wanted the same 40MB game on both 360 and Wii, you're still asking for a shittier game.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 25, 2010

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

The comparison to Super Mario All-Stars is, frankly, asinine. That game is rendered at 240i and upscaled to 480p by the Wii emulator. Super Meat Boy is a similarly expansive game with art assets rendered at 480p (and even higher on the HD platforms). The music is also quite a bit more complex; I don't know if it is already programmed in MIDI (with more channels and instruments than SNES could produce) or would have to be scripted in that format for WiiWare, which could be a very complex process.

First, you are, of course, welcome to your own opinion.  I do have to partially agree, that comparing a ~20 year old game to a current game is asinine.  It's asinine that the 20 year old game was, apparently, able to do things beyond what the current game can do.

But, beyond that - the pretty graphics and sounds are nice - but ultimately, game play is what matters.  Just as a good graphics or music won't make a bad game good, even the best graphics and music won't make an unplayable game playable.  If you've put so much focus into the graphics and sound development that your game can no longer be played, then you've obviously focused on the wrong area.

As for the music, it doesn't matter how "complex" it is - the musical tracks in the original Mario games are some of the most famous and most recognized tracks in video game history... which just goes to show that you don't need 40MB of space just for music to have great tracks to accompany your game.

Quote:

All-Stars was also coded by a huge team of veteran game developers at Nintendo, some of whom were probably involved in the hardware design. Team Meat is a tiny group of independent developers using stock Wii development kits. They are not necessarily experts in file size optimization, nor should such expertise be necessary in any reasonable development environment since the advent of disc-based media and digital distribution for a freaking 2D platformer.

I'll agree with this.  However, all this does is point out that the folks at Team Meat aren't "good enough".

Look, I think we can all pretty much agree that Nintendo's 40MB limit is either just bat-**** crazy (if it's an arbitrary limit that's not hardware based) or stupidly short-sighted (if it's hardware based) - but none of this changes the fact that Team Meat designed a WiiWare game that was beyond the limits of what WiiWare could do and are now sitting there scratching their heads wondering why Nintendo screwed them.

I'm going to build a house on my land that's bigger than my land and goes onto my neighbor's property.  I'm sure they won't mind - I'll wait until after I've designed it and started construction on it to ask them.

Quote from: Adrock

Except you can play it... just not on the Wii.

Quote from: Morari

You own a PC, I'm assuming? Play it there in its full glory. Otherwise, you're simply limiting yourself by insisting that the Wii receive a gutted release.

If that's the case, why are we even having this conversation?  If the train of thought is "the game in on another system, go play it there", then it doesn't matter if Nintendo has a stupid 40 MB limit or anything else.

The fact is, "Super Meat Boy" cannot be played on the Wii - so adding more stuff to the game doesn't make it a better Wii game.  Period.  If you want better 360 or PC games, then sure, use the pros of those hardware setups to make your game better - for the 360 or the PC.  Don't design a 360 game to use the Wii Remote, then wonder why no one is able to play it.

But they weren't trying to make a WiiWare game; they were trying to make a game. Initially it was targeted at WiiWare, but it grew beyond what they could do there and so they focused on the platforms on which it would work. They weren't doing it for us, or for Nintendo; they were simply trying to make the best game they could. Stop portraying this as some kind of insult to Nintendo. It's not like Nintendo funded the development, or gave them a devkit for free. Team Meat owes Nintendo nothing, and they just did what they did because it was the best option available to them from a business and creative point of view. Stop taking it so personally.

TJ SpykeDecember 25, 2010

They WERE trying to making a WiiWare game, just because they later decided to make more versions doesn't change that fact. It was designed to be a WiiWare game. They announced it as a WiiWare game, hyped it as a WiiWare game, promoted the hell out of it as a WiiWare game. Fans accepted it when they announced it would be ported to Xbox Live Arcade and PC since it was still for WiiWare, then then said a stripped down version would hit WiiWare, then all of a sudden they cancel it and announce that right from the beginning they ignored the limits of WiiWare. It's a insult to Wii owners and everybody who supported them since them since the beginning (especially since nobody had ever heard of them before this was announced for WiiWare).

Retro DeckadesDecember 25, 2010

There seem to be two major points of contention here: That they originally announced/developed/hyped this game as a WiiWare game, and that Nintendo has a size limit of 40MB for games developed for WiiWare. If either of these conditions were removed, this thread wouldn't have garned the response that it has. However, removing one of them would make Wii owners much happier than removing the other (and this could be a happiness beyond Super Meat Boy).

Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based.  New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 25, 2010

Quote from: insanolord

But they weren't trying to make a WiiWare game; they were trying to make a game. Initially it was targeted at WiiWare, but it grew beyond what they could do there and so they focused on the platforms on which it would work. They weren't doing it for us, or for Nintendo; they were simply trying to make the best game they could. Stop portraying this as some kind of insult to Nintendo. It's not like Nintendo funded the development, or gave them a devkit for free. Team Meat owes Nintendo nothing, and they just did what they did because it was the best option available to them from a business and creative point of view. Stop taking it so personally.

I'm not taking it as an insult to fans or Nintendo.  I'm just saying that the idea that 40MB isn't enough seems very weak to me - even more so considering what Nintendo did ~20 years ago with 1/20th of that space.

Quote from: MegaByte

Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based.  New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.

Good point - however, is this something that's due to the nature of the program itself (i.e.: the fact that it's pretty much just a video)?

vuduDecember 26, 2010

Quote from: insanolord

It would have been nice of them to announce this when people still had a chance to buy it on sale on Steam for $3.75.

The game is back on sale for $3.75 (today only!).  Buy it now unless you already have it on XBLA.

Mop it upDecember 26, 2010

Wow, Team Meat seems a little arrogant with some of their comments. I'm a little surprised that they would expect Nintendo to raise the WiiWare limit just for them (assuming they actually could, which I'm not convinced), that's just odd.

Quote from: UncleBob

Quote from: MegaByte

Just throwing it out there that the 40MB limit is not explicitly hardware-based.  New Wiis come with a intro video channel that's far larger than 40MB.

Good point - however, is this something that's due to the nature of the program itself (i.e.: the fact that it's pretty much just a video)?

To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

Killer_Man_JaroTom Malina, Associate Editor (Europe)December 26, 2010

While I appreciate the difficulties Team Meat have had to work around, after playing a smidgeon of Super Meat Boy, I will say that it's a little surprising they are supposedly having so much trouble compressing their data. The graphical style is one of minimal detail and there doesn't seem to be many pieces in the soundtrack. There are WiiWare games which I feel are stronger in the visual and audio camp that clearly had no such problems. I suppose some programmers are better than others...

Dirk TemporoDecember 26, 2010

Compression is hard and not everybody is John Carmack.

TheBlackCatDecember 28, 2010

Sorry, personally I have absolutely zero sympathy for the developers.  I am no fan of the size limit, but you do not develop software for a system while totally ignoring the capabilities of that system.  I am frankly dumbfounded that even the most incompetent developers in the world could ignore something as simple as a file size limit for the game's entire development cycle.  The only possibilities here are that either the developers have no sense whatsoever, are extremely arrogant, or were never intending to release it on wiiware to begin with. 

Based on the interview, it seems it was the second.  The developers just assumed that Nintendo would bend to their whims.  If that is their attitude, then frankly they deserve to go out of business.  Game development is a business.  In a business some small-time provider can't just assume that distributors will break the rules for them, and any one that does deserves to be smacked down hard.  If I was Nintendo I would personally be tempted to deny their request just on principle.

Imagine a company was contracted to build crates for oranges.  The truck company, based on some totally arbitrary rule, decided years ago to only allow crates up to 3 ft square.  The company building the crates supplies crates 5 ft square, since they think it would be better to carry more oranges per crate.  The truck company refuses to carry the crates.  Should the company that hired the builders praise them for making crates that can't be used, or should they be fired?  Obviously any sane person would fire them for failing to take into account the constraints of the job.

To put it bluntly, the developers did not do their job.  They developed a game, from square one, that could not possibly be a wiiware game, yet they marketed it as one.  So I think the blame of their failure rests solely with them.  I don't like the size limit Nintendo has imposed, I think it is seriously hampering wiiware.  But that doesn't change the fact that the developers didn't do their job properly.

Sorry if I seem gruff here.  There are few things I can't stand, but one of them is a business that tries to make itself seem the victim for its own poor business decisions.  And frankly I see no other way to describe this.  They knew what they had to do, and they made a conscious decision, over a prolonged period of time, not to do it.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: Mop

To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel.  Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB.  Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?

EnnerDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: UncleBob

Quote from: Mop

To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel.  Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB.  Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?

I'd imagine they coded the program to efficiently stream video within the Wii's hardware capabilities. When I decide to skip around in a movie, Netflix has to buffer even if I only skipped a little.

TJ SpykeDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: Enner

Quote from: UncleBob

Quote from: Mop

To be fair, you don't have to download the video (the download process is probably why the limit exists), and you are supposed to delete the video after you watch it.

This brings up an interesting thing as well - the Netflix channel.  Obviously, the movies that are streamed/downloaded to the Wii are over 40MB.  Perhaps the limit doesn't apply to video for whatever reason?

I'd imagine they coded the program to efficiently stream video within the Wii's hardware capabilities. When I decide to skip around in a movie, Netflix has to buffer even if I only skipped a little.

It does the same thing when streaming on PS3, it has more to do with Netflix itself.

ejamerDecember 28, 2010

"...  They developed a game, from square one, that could not possibly be a wiiware game, yet they marketed it as one.  ...  They knew what they had to do, and they made a conscious decision, over a prolonged period of time, not to do it."

Truth.

KnowsNothingDecember 28, 2010

The developers thought that the 40 MB size limitation for Wiiware games was too strict.  Since they are not in the position to change Nintendo's policy internally, they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations.  I'm not sure Team Meat expected Nintendo to necessarily give them an exclusive exception, rather that they would change the policy for ALL developers.  If enough companies wish to release high profile downloadable games on the Wii that are over 40 MB, it's reasonable to expect Nintendo to change their policy because they stand to profit so much from changing the rules.

I also think that Team Meat must have spoken to someone at Nintendo who at least implied that the limitation could be changed at some point in development (probably early on).  That's just a hunch though.

vuduDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: KnowsNothing

they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations.

Everything I've read indicates that the limitation isn't as arbitrary as you seem to think it is.

If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now. I can't see how staying strict with it benefits them in any way, which leads me to believe they can't change it, or at least can't change it without a lot of work.

Dirk TemporoDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: insanolord

If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now.

Just like Friend Codes, right?

MorariDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: insanolord

If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now. I can't see how staying strict with it benefits them in any way, which leads me to believe they can't change it, or at least can't change it without a lot of work.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but Nintendo is historically famous for doing stupid things for no particular reason. They don't need to see any benefits in order to stick to their guns. Maybe it's an issue of pride? Fixing a mistake first requires you to admit that you made a mistake.

Regardless. I beat the game over the weekend. It was definitely worth the $3. Anyone who missed out while it was on sale for the PC should be ashamed of themselves. ;)

Quote from: Morari

Quote from: insanolord

If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now. I can't see how staying strict with it benefits them in any way, which leads me to believe they can't change it, or at least can't change it without a lot of work.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but Nintendo is historically famous for doing stupid things for no particular reason. They don't need to see any benefits in order to stick to their guns. Maybe it's an issue of pride? Fixing a mistake first requires you to admit that you made a mistake.

They've caved to popular demand already on demos, even after trying them once before and then abandoning them.

Quote from: Dirk

Quote from: insanolord

If it were arbitrary, Nintendo would have changed it by now.

Just like Friend Codes, right?

1. Friend Codes aren't arbitrary; there's a difference between being arbitrary and being stupid. I may not agree with Nintendo's reasoning for them, but they at least have an argument. 2. You conveniently ignored the second part of my quote, where I said that changing this limit might be possible, but require too much work to be worth the trouble, which I would bet changing that system would too.

TheBlackCatDecember 28, 2010

Quote from: KnowsNothing

The developers thought that the 40 MB size limitation for Wiiware games was too strict.  Since they are not in the position to change Nintendo's policy internally, they decided to apply external pressure to the situation by making a great game that does not it within the (arbitrary) limitations.  I'm not sure Team Meat expected Nintendo to necessarily give them an exclusive exception, rather that they would change the policy for ALL developers.  If enough companies wish to release high profile downloadable games on the Wii that are over 40 MB, it's reasonable to expect Nintendo to change their policy because they stand to profit so much from changing the rules.

Nintendo gave no indication that we know of that they intended to change anything.  So Team Meat made a decision to develop a game they had no indication would ever have any chance of coming out. 

Have you ever heard the saying "hope for the best, plan for the worst"?  The reasonable course of action would have been to develop the game strictly for the size limit, but develop in such a way that they could add more content given time and a change in policy.  At the very least they should have been developing the game for a larger size limit, but leaving themselves ways to cut it down if the limit didn't change.  But they developed the entire thing based on the hard requirement that Nintendo changed the rules, and then had to scramble to totally re-design the game at the last minute.  I don't see how any half-competent business could put themselves in such a position, at least not ones outside of a field like law where changes are inevitable. 

Could you imagine someone writing a flash program targeted at the iphone, despite the repeated assertions by Apple that it will not support flash?  Does that seem like a reasonable business decision?  Would it be reasonable for them to play the victim card when Apple didn't change their policy by the time the software was finished?  I think the decision by Apple to not support Flash is as bone-headed as Nintendo's limit (assuming the limit is indeed arbitrary and easily fixed), but that is not excuse for developer making a program that they had no reason to think would ever actually work.

What about someone developing a program aimed at windows running on ARM processors?  It seems inevitable that Windows will eventually be ported to ARM, but that doesn't change the fact that a software developer who wrote such a program has no right to complain that it isn't out yet, since Microsft hadn't announced it was even going to happen, not to mention when.

Even if Nintendo's decision is arbitrary, even if it is stupid, even if it should be changed, it is still theirs to make, and it is not an excuse to ignore it.

Quote from: KnowsNothing

I also think that Team Meat must have spoken to someone at Nintendo who at least implied that the limitation could be changed at some point in development (probably early on).  That's just a hunch though.

I strongly suspect that if Nintendo had done so Team Meat would have used that as a defense for their actions already.  The fact that they have made no mention of such a discussion despite all the flak they are getting for this indicates to me that no such conversation took place.

KnowsNothingDecember 28, 2010

I'm not saying that what Team Meat did wasn't stupid, just that I think there was some sort of perverted logic to it all.  As Edmund McMillen said, they overestimated their ability to change the rules.  It was a gamble and they lost.  Oh well.  They're still at fault for marketing it as a Wii game and ignoring the limits, but I can't say I'm too angry at them for wanting to be the catalyst for a change long overdue.

And that last part about Team Meat speaking to Nintendo was just a random thought I had, but it likely isn't true.  Feel free to ignore that haha.

AdrockDecember 28, 2010

One possibility may be the limitations of the Wii's 512MB of internal flash memory. If Super Meat Boy is 90.4MB, that's a little over 1/6 of the Wii's storage capabilities, even more considering some of that memory is reserved for system updates. Not sure if this is true, but I remember reading that the Wii runs games from the internal memory only and can't actually play any software from an SD card, it moves data back and forth between the SD card and internal memory. Perhaps the Wii can handle larger file sizes but Nintendo just drew the line at 40MB because transferring larger files from SD card to the Wii's internal memory is more trouble than its worth. Purely speculation on my part though.

Even if the above was the case, Nintendo's lack of foresight has, once again, cost them quality software and the biggest losers are Nintendo themselves because even if Wii owners would prefer to play the game on the Wii, they still buy the game because if they have the internet access, chances are they own a PC and can still experience the game. I'd honestly be surprised if any household with access to the internet had a Wii as the sole device that could go online.

Quote from: TheBlackCat

But they developed the entire thing based on the hard requirement that Nintendo changed the rules, and then had to scramble to totally re-design the game at the last minute.  I don't see how any half-competent business could put themselves in such a position, at least not ones outside of a field like law where changes are inevitable.

See, the reality of the situation isn't anything like the picture you've painted. Team Meat developed the game knowing that they had 3 completely viable alternatives: XBLA, PC and Mac. Nintendo doesn't owe them anything and vice versa. The development team decided, instead, to make the best game they could knowing it could still be released and still offer the game to Nintendo who declined. So be it. I don't see how Team Meat is playing the victim card. They apologized to Wii owners but they're hardly licking their wounds. The game is out, they're making a profit on the game, Microsoft if making a profit on the game and the only company who isn't is Nintendo.

PeachylalaDecember 28, 2010

Quote:

The game is out, they're making a profit on the game, Microsoft if making a profit on the game and the only company who isn't is Nintendo.

This is true, but Nintendo is making a profit on everything else (WiiWare or not), and any Wii owner jhas to have internet access for Steam. So Nintendo isn't missing out of the profits, just the game itself.

Though I find Super Meat Boy to be a great game, people are just making too much of a big deal out of it. Fun, but seriously, nothing to get too crazy over.

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