The Zelda posters are actually really nice if you're looking for something to spend coins on.

You sound a bit butt hurt.

I liked them... :(

How?! I spent 300 coins and got mid-grade cardstock trading cards.
Also, @Bboy: I totally would have jumped on the Zelda posters if the Phantom Hourglass one had been Wind Waker instead. We all know how I feel about Phantom Hourglass.

Now that's just snotty.

They neglected to feature a few other GBA SPs.  I live in the US, and I got one of those snazzy NES-styled SPs.  I guess it being a limited edition is why it wasn't mentioned.

it being a limited edition is all the more reason it should be mentioned.

R u serious? U know what!?!?!? U POSTER THIS BLOG POST 2 HOURS AFTER I ORDERED IT!!! O MY GOD!!! THATS SO SAD! LITTERALLY I MEAN LIKE 2 HOURS B4 U POSTER THAT THING ABOUT HOW IT SUX I ORDERED IT. OMG I MIGHT CRY NOW >.< :@

Lol, it's funny that I should see this story today. I stopped coming here not too long after Berghammer stopped running the site. Basically, it'd just become a center for all the NWR/PGC writers that were left to nonstop whine and complain about the most petty things and trumpet how Nintendo was "DOOOOOOOOMED" if they didn't go "MATTTTOOOOR" with their games. Yeah, you guys were totally right about that one.

I check out this story today, mildly interested in the reward, and it's (about the petty things) still the same crap. Shall we dissect a few of your offending points and make you just a little less prone to excessive hyperbole? I think we should.

1. No good games? Really, bro? I can understand wanting more of a killer app for launch, but there were *plenty* of good and fun games available for launch. And I'm sure you know that, so I'll refrain from list wars. Half an OS, I'll give you. There certainly are some features I was missing and still even want.

2. Excessive complaining about a free collectible? Come on. Of course all the info is available on wikipedia. Heck, I'm sure a lot of Nintendo fans can recite the info from memory. That's not the point. It's a cool little collectible freebie for long time fans to keep and hang onto. Like your wife said, I wouldn't be surprised if some fans frame them. You sound more like you want an in-depth 200 hundred page glossy history of handhelds book to put on your coffee table. Me too actually, but that's just not something that's going to happen as a free reward. Your expectations are off-the-wall unrealistic here.

And finally, just drop the snark and entitlement. Nintendo doesn't have to give you rewards at all, you realize that? You spent your money on games. These items are just free bonuses, and generally pretty nice ones at that.

I understand people not taking kindly to the snark, but the history cards reward is cheap and the 3DS line-up (both at launch and today) is incredibly weak.


For people who have a limited number of Club Nintendo points, it's worth knowing that there are better places to spend them on this unimpressive collectible.

Except that these aren't "free rewards".  They are incentives to purchase Nintendo 1st party software new and preferably near their original release date, and to even get these incentives you have to supply Nintendo with marketing data via the surveys.

And let's take a look at that "free" angle again.  Let's assume a couple of things for the purposes of easy math:

1.  You're only buying Wii retail games at full retail price (rounded up a penny to $50).  No sales.
2.  You only concern yourself with the registration and post-play survey coins (60 total).

According to Halbred, these useless cards were 300 coins or the value of 5 Wii 1st party retail games.

5 x $50 = $250.  These cards cost you $250 in Nintendo Wii 1st party retail purchases, maybe around $150 when you factor in things like sales and VC/WiiWare releases.  Maybe you were going to buy those 5 games anyway, and maybe you weren't.  Maybe you only bought some of them because you were mildly curious and wanted the coins.  Regardless, do these cards look like they're worth what the player has to pay to obtain them? 

This cheap crap on Club Nintendo certainly isn't free, and Nintendo of America has an obligation to have the things on the service worth getting, especially since there have been some genuinely good stuff on the store in Japan and Europe.

They should have done a set of Playing cards with 52 different Handheld pictures on them and then on the Suit have Nintendo Characters playing around.  That would have been interesting.

It's not that I think the 3DS launch lineup is perfect or that the history cards reward is beyond any criticism. I take issue with his exaggerations and whining. To say there were no good games at 3DS launch is an out-and-out fallacy. The same tone extends to the rest of the article - He might be a genuinely good guy, but here he comes off whining and entitled. It's annoying, and he should stop it.

I like my articles to be a genuine, realistic look at things. Not a competition to see how much snark can be added to each line for cool factor. We have enough of that crap on the internet as is.

But is anyone really buying New Super Mario Bros Wii for the coins? No, they're buying it for the game. Whatever plushie, towel, or end of year bonus gift Nintendo happens to send your way is just that: a bonus. Even the surveys tend to be short and to the point.

And if somebody really is buying games to rack up coins and not for the games themselves (My mind is blown), they should be made aware that this stuff regularly sells on Ebay for far, far less than having to buy a bunch of games.

And minus two popularity points (TM) on my post. Really? How about the downvoters come in here and explain why I'm so wrong for making the points that I did? Or are you too busy opening wide? I hope that's not the case, and you have a genuine disagreement with my post - I'd be glad to discuss it.

So because something is a "free reward" (which, as broodwars explained, it's not), I shouldn't have ANY expectations as to quality? Sorry, but I've gotten other "free" Nintendo rewards that have been FAR higher quality than this: Kirby patches, the Mario hat, the Mario figurine, the Zelda CD, the box of playing cards.

What I'm saying is that THIS reward sucks by comparison to the others, or even to itself. I could make these handheld cards myself with some graphic design skill. That's not good enough--I expect more. Look at what Club Nintendo people in Japan, Europe, and Australia are getting, then come back here and tell me why these handheld cards are an option at all.

One likely has issues if they just purchase games for coins at the Nintendo Club Store. But it is true that NIntendo does benefit from the surveys, and they make these rewards as incentives to fill out the surveys. If they release a lot of crap no one wants, people will be less likely to fill out surveys, and in turn it will hurt Nintendo, since a chunk of their marketing data is derived from this.

They're free in the sense that I get them for buying games I would have bought regardless of the Club Nintendo Coins. I still think Nintendo could do better with the rewards, but they're definitely free, at least for me.

Not if everyone filling them out is adding comments like "XENOBLADE OR DIE!!!111". :D

They could benefit. They just choose not to.

Wow... if people are taking a deep, personal offense to Zach's snark, I am afraid to see how they react to the worst the internet can offer in terms of butt hurt, angry, snarky commentary... :p

It's not really beneficial for a company to pay to find out what they already know.  It's like me telling Nintendo that I bought another Professor Layton game because I like Professor Layton games... I'm sure they're thankful for that spectacular input. ;)

It would be cool if the grunts tasked with reading all these keep a running tally of how many of them mention Xenoblade.

As I said, the key thing Nintendo wants is for you to buy these games new, and as close to MSRP as possible.  In  the past Nintendo coins didn't determine whether I bought specific Wii retail games or not (though they did influence me in experimenting with some titles on WiiWare and the Virtual Console), but they did factor into my decision over whether to purchase specific titles new or used.

Of course, that was back when I still believed that Nintendo of America would put something I'd actually want to buy on the service, and back when I still believed that Nintendo of America deserved a single dime of my money.  Now that the Club Nintendo store has proved itself a complete waste and NoA decided to kill off the Wii a year early, **** 'em.

Unless the moment you buy the game in Club Nintendo your game is registered and the surveys are filled out then they do cost you something.

Nothing is free.  Take lawn mowing as an example.  I lot of people have people more there lawn when they could do it for free, assuming they have all the equipment already.  Though is that really free spending the Hour or 2 I could spend with my family or gaming mowing the lawn?

I was jaded when we didn't get rewards back in the day for registration so, I didn't do Club Nintendo at all when it came out because I figured it would amount to nothing unlike the pure awesomeness of all the Japan items.  I only did Club Nintendo this year because I knew I could get Platinum and might get something cool but I doubt I'll get anything but Recycled Trinkets.  In retrospect the hour or so I spent putting in codes could have easily bought me a Pizza or two.

This seems like a wasted opportunity, they could have made some cards that could actually be used for something. A set of some sort of playing cards would have been nice, although what would have been awesome is if these were AR cards. Imagine if you could view a 3D model of each handheld, walking around it to rotate it.

Holy crap, Mop, that would be amazing. It would require new software, though, I think. Maybe a downloadable game whose code comes with the cards? But that would, you know, require effort...

I'm a little late on this, and I have no idea if this is still a relevant discussion (probably not) but I'll reply anyway.

To the author of the article: I did reply to the post that you cited as an example of why the rewards aren't free. I just can't, in any way of looking at it, view those items as what I'm spending 50 dollars for. This month, I'm buying Skyward Sword, not a work around to get a hat. And as I pointed out, I've seen these items sold on Ebay for far less, without having to buy an expensive game.

The concept of seeing a 200 hundred coin reward, and going, "Oh man, that bag costs 200 dollars!" is completely asinine.

Could those cards have been better? Does Japan get better rewards in general? Yup, and yes that does deserve criticism. But it deserves reasonable criticism that we could all learn from, not the writer lashing out at the entire Club Nintendo store and even the 3DS for no good reason. Had you just reported that fact without all the negativity and exaggeration, I would have just read your opinion, and just taken it into consideration with others I've seen.

I'm not offended. In fact, I'm pretty sure I must have been linked to an article of yours that I quite liked at some point in time as your name seems familiar. But the tone of this article just irritated me, despite being quite informative in other ways.

That is why this is a blog, an unedited commentary, not news, formal review, or editorial.

A few suggestions for anyone who finds themselves perpetually pissed off/disappointed in Nintendo: Go play something else! Shut the flap up! or Get the flap out!

And please, no one have the nerve to try and hit me with the "we're just voicing our opinions! censorship! this is just a blog!"  This is a Nintendo site.  If you find that you don't have at least 50% positive thoughts to share about Nintendo? THIS ISN'T THE PLACE FOR YOU!!

Who are you to say whom this place is for?

Seriously.

So the lesson I'm learning here is that all Nintendo rewards are AMAZING because they're "free" and they're also Nintendo-related.

And I'm too snarky.

I agree.

But then, I'm the guy who spent $30 on an expired $5 coupon because it had the Nintendo logo on it.  So free Nintendo-related stuff is awesome.

They're not amazing, but getting all indignant about something that is essentially a free bonus for buying something you were already going to buy seems a bit silly.

And you are absolutely too snarky, but that's what we love about you. ;)

Someone smart enough to know that a Nintendo website should be for people who like Nintendo more than they hate it?  This isn't a real high-level concept.

This place is for people who want to read our content and take part in our community. Period. As long as you follow the rules, it doesn't matter how positive you are about Nintendo.

You hear that Ian!!? This is no place for you!!

Oh... nevermind. Carry on.

I wish I could find my original Other M review. I think NinSage would demand my prompt resignation.

I was engorged with rage.

So... is it all hot air or will anyone actually attempt to explain the logic behind people who don't like something participating in a community built around that thing.

That would be like someone attending an indie film fest who dislikes indie films.  They just go around most of the time saying "this sucks," "this wasn't done right," "these guys don't know what they are doing," "that film is garbage."  They ruin the atmosphere for people who just want to enjoy the content.

Constructive discussions? Absolutely. That would be great.  But that requires an openness that some folks either no longer have or never had at all.  And if you've reached that point with Nintendo where you can no longer be open to the possibility that there is more to enjoy than to critique?  Why come here?

To make sure others experience your displeasure? To drive the people who enjoy the content into silence and hiding? Or worse yet, away from the site?  Where should they go if not to a place built upon the thing they enjoy?

So, please, I'm all ears.  Tell me how any gaming community (Sony, MS, PC) is made better with the presence of folks who have more bad than good to say?  Cuz Iwata sure ain't skimming the forums looking for ways to improve his products.

This is a place for die hards and fairweather fans alike. There are also plenty of people that just aren't happy unless they are complaining about something, and each and everyone of them are more than welcome to come here and converse about all things Nintendo and whatever other topics may come up too (within forum guidelines).

We may not all agree and we may not all like each other from time to time, but that doesn't mean we can't all share our opinions in a civilized manner in a centralized place.

The last thing we want is to become an echo chamber of fanboys with hive mentality that will chase off differing opinions just because they don't fall in with the pre-established line of thought.

We are a community of different people with different likes and dis-likes.  As long as you keep it respectful and within guidelines, you should be able to discuss whatever topic is at hand. And just because some people critique far more often than they praise, doesn't mean they didn't have a few good points somewhere in there. We not all here just to pile praise ontop of more praise and blindly ignore any faults. We are here to have discussions, and that is kinda hard to do without opposing opinions.

I wish I were an Admin so I could up BnM's applauds by several hundred. He's exactly right. If you want a place where everyone's always positive about Nintendo all the time, those places exist elsewhere. This isn't, and shouldn't be, such a place.

I mean in all honesty we tend to drive outright trolls away from here.  There really isn't any that's a regular whose really an actual troll.  We have a lot that are jaded though.

As far as Nintendo goes this site is a dedicated Nintendo Site as its topic.  With Nintendo being a sub topic of the Video Game Industry which is a sub branch of the Media Industry which is a sub branch of the Entertainment Industry the topics move around here with the people accordingly.

While the site focuses mainly on Nintendo news that is the topic.  The different viewpoints then come in and we have a discussion.  When times are good things are positive.  When Times are Bad things are negative.  The same way it is in any social group.

Anywhere that is always positive on a product or company is marketing plane and simple.

Bingo.

Oh yes, visiting a community to tell them how bad the things they enjoy are is so very civilized.

But that is exactly what happens! Just reversed! That's my point!  *ahem* from earlier in the conversation...

This is the exact same reason why I stopped visiting Kotaku.  Why I stopped paying attention to G4.  Why I've even stopped visiting GoNintendo with any regularity.  The train of thought that Nintendo has no idea what they're doing (despite consistent success in quality and sales) IS the echo chamber.  That's why if you want that, you can get it from nearly any other gaming site on the net!!

Yea? "Places" plural, eh? By all means, list away!! Who knows, maybe I won't have to bother you guys with my enjoyment of Nintendo anymore! (though I'm never gonna stop listening to RFN... they're awesome).

My premise is people who are more negative than positive. Not positive all the time.  That's not a hard concept to comprehend so please, no one keep wasting our time with posts suggesting otherwise.

~~~

Here I am getting downvoted for having enough faith in gamers to hope for 50/50 at worst.  What does that say about where gaming culture is at?  Is the enjoyment derived from negativity that much greater than positivity?

Also, here's the banner from the forum I used to run as "CrashMan."  Note the quote and try to tell me I haven't put my money where my mouth is in terms of equality...
http://wiiaredeep.myfreeforum.org/templates/myff_wiiaredeep1/images/Wii_Forum_logo2.jpg

Your positivity is on one side of the scale. I can think of 1 member in particular whose stance on all things Nintendo is at the complete opposite side of the same scale. The rest of us fall somewhere in the middle.

Truth is that none of us would even be here if Nintendo wasn't near and dear to our gaming hearts, but that doesn't mean we have to take everything they give us with a spoon of sugar and a smile. The more we grow and the more we understand about the industry, the more opinionated we become on the way it is, the it was, and the way it should be.

The staffers here have a site to run and in order to do that successfully, they need to draw hits, and they do this with "news" stories. The fact that the only thing they have to complain about are "the most petty things" should be a relief. We could be talking about much worse things besides lackluster ClubN rewards. Besides, they are only voicing their opinions as they stand at the time. Feel free to voice yours and possibly persuade theirs, that is what produces discussion and makes this an interesting place to visit after all.

...

Don't take negativity so personally. People here still like Nintendo, but when things aren't going well are bound to vent and complain a little bit. That's part of life.

Because he spent a moderate amount of Club Nintendo points (which are a limited resource and far from free to collect) on a reward, picked something that was newly added, and then found out that the quality was very disappointing and his points wasted.

If that was me, and I dropped 300 points on something that was a major let down, I'd be disappointed too. Especially when the cooler shirt/shoelace rewards were announced so soon afterwards.

Why are news stories and forum responses largely negative lately? Because they are direct reactions to what Nintendo has done in 2011. I'm as long-time Nintendo fan, but really don't have anything to show for 2011 so far outside of: an expensive imported Wii RPG that required I install homebrew to play; a 3DS console that has minor scratches on the top screen due to poor design, a handful of emulated NES titles to play, and most likely an updated version coming out next year with significant upgrades; and hope that 2012 will be a better year for Nintendo fans.

Honestly, I'd love to hear more good news... but it has been a bad year for Nintendo. If you have exciting news that is worth reporting, please share!

You may catch more flies with honey, but drama breeds ratings.

You don't like negativity, then don't respond to it, skip over it and flat out ignore it.
As far as active posters, we are a small community, and if our particular flavor of Kook-Aid doesn't suit you, then you are more than welcome to bring your own and add it to the selection or go seek it elsewhere. We aren't actively chasing anyone away nor are we being selective about the type of people that should be allowed to post here.

~~~

As far as why shitty prizes are considered an insult... well have you seen some of the stuff Nintendo of Japan gives out to their ClubN participants? Do you see the amount of money Nintendo is making off of us, and their way of saying thank you is to treat it's biggest market with sub-par gifts while it's home market (and even the Euro market) get sweet treats and nice prizes.

Now they didn't have to give us anything at all, and I'm sure we all understand that, but if Grandpa came home for Xmas and bought your sister a new house and a matching car, but only left you with a few sweaters and some socks, I think you would feel a little bit under appreciated.
The least he could have done is make sure they were the best damn socks and sweaters there are, but Grandpa didn't have to give you anything at all, so why would you complain?

A lot of us see ClubN as an incentive program (because that is what it is) and want to be compensated properly for our efforts. We buy their stuff and take the time to register it online and answer some questions about it so that they have feedback. In return for being a customer and taking that time and effort to provide such feedback, they monetize the feedback and allow us to spend that on prizes. If they continue to provide us with things we don't want, then what incentive do we have to continue giving feedback? What incentive do we have to try out that other game that only kinda interested me and buy it new so that I get the RegCode if I don't feel it's worth the extra money, time and effort to do so?

As far as "Doom and Gloom" (already kinda addressed at the top), it's because people care and want to see Nintendo do better than good and everyone has an opinion on how it needs to be done. Nintendo often makes lots of questionable and outright stupid decisions sometimes that more often than not turn out to be not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. But that doesn't mean that it isn't annoying that they do it and I don't see anything wrong with people voicing their concerns over these decisions, regardless of whether or not we know the reasoning and compromises made behind them.

I read a great quote about Nintendo recently, but can't remember the exact phrasing. Something about how they are "historically brilliant, and historically foolish at the time".  It felt terribly apt, and it's hard to deny either half of the statement with good conscience.

@ejamer/BnM

These last two responses were worded especially respectfully and civil (not that they weren't before, just giving credit where it is due).  Please keep in mind that I appreciate that as I go on to explain why we are still not on the same page conceptually...

It sure is, never said it wasn't... I have no idea why I have to keep defending that very central part of my message.

So he bought the games for the Club Nintendo points not the entertainment? Do games with CN points cost extra? We can buy 1st party games at a lower price if they don't have CN points? He didn't do his research before making an online purchase?

Really, the article doesn't come across as disappointed.  It comes across as angry.  It's fine to be disappointed in anything, but if he's got anyone to be mad at? It should be himself.

I guess that's why 2010 was full of positive stories about having all kinds of 1st and 3rd party content being released? I guess that's why 2007-09 looked at breaking sales records as an outright success instead of some kind of casual dismissal and sure indication that Nintendo would be doomed this time next year.

Hint: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=109863

@BnM

"Drama breeds ratings" is, pardon my french, a bullsh*t excuse.  Are we here to discuss common interests or are we here to make sure NWR's advertisers are happy?  Let's try to make the goal of news outlets attracting viewers by being a source for valuable information and education.  Not because of "dependence theory" (the comm. theory you describe in which people will rely on/visit the media during times of uncertainty/distress).

Let's try to have a community were people want to share ideas because they can benefit each other.  Not just because they have a friggin' axe to grind!!


No, you're not actively chasing people away.  But the fervor with which people leap to the defense of negativity as if it is some kind of censorship issue? It safe-guards a behavior which does the task for you.  As gamers, WE control the culture.  You can't say that about all walks of life.  It makes no sense that we should protect negativity at all costs, but be afraid of positivity for some irrational fear of appearing to "sell out" or "be a fanboy" or lose some kind of street cred.

Again, as I mentioned before the "people care and want to help" rationale is also bunk.  If you wanna help? Go join Operation Rainfall and spread the word.  Don't spew negativity about how "it's never gonna work. NoA is too stupid."  Go do some research and highlight the Club Nintendo reward that you ARE happy with.  That way others can enjoy it to.  Telling us NOT to buy this one item leaves us open to the dozen or so other possible mistakes, doesn't it?

In other words, if people really cared, they should do something about the problem.  Dragging a storm-cloud to every community you visit does nothing.  It's not constructive, it's counter-productive at best and destructive at worst.

"But NinSage, you arrogant hypocrite, you're just sitting on a forum complaining (about complainers). That's why you got the custom title you currently bear.  You are no better than that which you condemn."

Au contraire.  Not the website linked in my signature.  I've run it for almost 3 years now.  Go read the Mission Statement and you'll see what we're about.  Unfortunately, though I feel I have a good handle on the media (abd PhD) and game culture (dissertation in hardcore game definition), I know next to nothing about effective website promotion.  So, we limp along, we have a small (less than 10) group of dedicated gamers who are awesome.  But it's hardly been enough to improve game culture as we'd like.

I'd like to live in a world where Kotaku writes at least one story about Monster Hunter Tri.  Not because it's on the Wii, but because it is a quality game that many people enjoyed. I'd like to see a media where Morgan Webb doesn't see Mario Galaxy is "too kiddy" in the same segment she calls Ratchet and Clank more mature and compliments it's "burp gun."

~~~

Still waiting on Insano, or anyone, to link me to those multiple websites where people enjoy playing games more than complaining about them.

Says the guy who's posted several large posts complaining about something or other....

I have a rather large post all typed up and ready to submit... then I refreshed.
You made my post seem long-winded and unnecessary. Now I have no need to submit it.

@UncleBob / BnM

So... I take it neither of you read the entirety of my previous post?

*sigh* if you're gonna have a conversation at least read it, people.

You know I find it funny that this forum wants conversation and then when someone brings up valid points people don't want to talk anymore and redicule the poster that made the points...

I disagree with your premise that there are a significant number of people here who are more than 50% negative about Nintendo, however the hell you'd measure that. Sure there's Ian, but other than that I don't think there's anyone here who criticizes Nintendo for non-legitimate reasons on a regular basis. There are good reasons to be somewhat negative about Nintendo right now, at least in the short term, and especially on the console side.

@Maxi

You're the man, as always.

@Insano

That's fine. No one's here to split unsplittable hairs.  You just give me that list of websites you mentioned earlier and you can wash your hands of this whole thread!

I don't have a list, and I don't feel like going to any effort to appease you, even if it would make you go away.

As soon as NinSage decides to make "valid points", I'm sure he'll stop getting ridiculed.  For now, he just sounds like THIS. 

I'm sorry, NinSage, that this website doesn't exist merely to reaffirm what you already believe/tell you what you want to hear as the grand bastion of constantly Pro-Nintendo news and reviews coverage.  We are all Nintendo fans, some old and some new; some critical, and some more laid-back.  And all of us have different tastes in gaming, and quite a few of those tastes have been poorly satiated on Nintendo consoles over the years.  If I can come to tolerate and ignore the nauseating Nintendo fanboys on this site (whose beliefs change according to Nintendo's marketing spin), you can learn to tolerate the critics.

And if you can't accept that a large number of people here can be critical and fans of something, you have no business being on the internet, let alone this website.  Contrary to popular opinion on the internet, being critical of something is not the same as hating it.  And if this website couldn't be critical of Nintendo when it did something the site's writers found questionable, it would have no business existing as Nintendo.com already exists.

@Insano

So... got nothin', eh? Talk about wasting your own time.

@broodwars

Not sure how many times I gotta say it but zero tolerance is not what I've asked for. Ever. The problem with all these critiques and criticisms is that they are voiced with ignorance and immaturity.  If someone said, "I've been a fan of Series X for a while but this new installment didn't live up to the previous ones. I really enjoyed the setting and visuals, but I just didn't get the same satisfaction from the depth of story or the new gameplay mechanics" that would be great.  Let's have more and more of that!

Instead, since it's easier, all we tend to get is "this new installment is not what hardcore gamers want.  Does Nintendo know how to make games for them anymore?" from the media.  And from the gamers we get "this sucks!" "this is not like the old game!" or "this is too much like the old game!"

See how that's not informative or constructive?

But yea, let's not work towards bettering our culture, let's just cling, white-knuckled to the same old anger and jaded attitudes that have lead folks like Kotaku and G4 to where they are today!

That's a straw man if I've ever seen one if you're talking about this site. If you're talking about the gaming media in general, you may have some semblance of a point, but none of that's true of NWR in any significant way.

@Insano

I'm really not talking about NWR, I like NWR very much, especially RFN.  As a whole their site is the best I can find.

Since you're responding again, how about naming even ONE website that you insisted are out there earlier?

I'm not aware of any specific sites. It's not something I've ever had a reason to go looking for, as I believe NWR provides the best balance in terms of how they (we) treat Nintendo. I'm fairly certain there are some 100% positive Nintendo circlejerks out there if you go looking for them, though.

At last, the truth.  Wouldn't it have saved us all a bunch of time if you hadn't thrown a baseless red herring in to the conversation?

Btw, I like your avatar.  Been meaning to say so for a while.  Of course, it is not as good as BnM's current avatar.  Gotta tell him that next time he's around.

It wasn't a baseless red herring. Like I said, I'm certain those places exist, and my not knowing specific examples of them doesn't change that. I guarantee you there are places on the Internet far more positive about Nintendo than we are.

Complaining about the tendencies of the gaming media in regard to Nintendo here is fairly pointless. It won't change anything, and it only serves to annoy the people who are here, who are largely here specifically because it's not that way. We know it sucks most other places, which is why we don't go there. You're preaching to the converted.

I just want to say that I still have that post I typed up earlier and the real reason I didn't post it was because it was long, scattered and a little off topic. I was in the middle of other stuff while I typed it up and really didn't feel like going back to clean it up and make sure it was all coherent.

I might've posted it now since I have the time, but its on my computer at home... Where I am not at the moment.
UncleBob's post just happen to summarize my last paragraph in a much more direct way, so I didn't bother to hit post.

@Insano

So you know they exist without ever seeing one? What faith and powers you must have =P Very deep. ^_^

Also, still was never talking solely about the media.  (People keep trying to shove my philosophy to one extreme or another.)

@BnM

No problem.  Probably wouldn't be much point in posting a longer version of something UncleBob could only believe having not read/ignored my prior post!

Here's the deal - I'm not really interested in having this conversation with you because you're completely oblivious to the fact that the basic premise of your argument is invalid.

See, this isn't a Pro-Nintendo site.
No where does it claim to be, nor was it intended to be (in so far as I've ever known it).

At BEST, it's a "Nintendo News Site".  In reality, it's more of a "Nintendo News Blog".  Either way, it's not expected or required for those who work on the site to be *any* amount "Pro-Nintendo" - they simply need to be able to provide news and commentary related to Nintendo.

And this is coming from the guy who bought the $5 Expired Nintendo coupon for $30.

If you want to see more pro-Nintendo reporting on this site, feel free to submit an application during the next round of recruitment.

Aside from that, I would *love* to see a greater effort made to separate the actual news from the editorial pieces (blogs, etc.).  But as for your point, again, it is simply based on a faulty premise and not really one I wish to engage you in some kind of discussion about.

@UncleBob

You've gotten my points confused.  I guess if I say the same things over and over again they will eventually become clear ...

Though I do believe the media IN GENERAL does a poor job of treating Nintendo EQUALLY, my only PRO-Nintendo expectation was among people who would be motivated to visit a Nintendo-centric site (such as this one).  Lest it be misinterpreted for the 805th time, "pro-Nintendo" (your term), as I have been defining it, merely means not hating Nintendo more than you like it (a split of as little as 50/50).

The theory there being, regardless of the content provided, why would you visit a place focused on something you don't like?

I strongly dislike Shia LaBeouf.  Thus, you will not see me on a Shia LaBeouf website b!tching and moaning about every new movie he's cast in.  Make sense?

PS - You have hit a nail on the head in terms of better splits between news and editorials/blogs.  I cannot overstate how right you are in this regard.  This issue goes way beyond gaming of course.  However, few realms other than gaming have put such power in the hands of the audience themselves! So we can have a higher standard if we just demand it!

I used to try to demand it on the sites themselves.  I was banned from Kotaku three times.  Once for asking why an article about a child wearing wiimote sleeves as shoes was "news worthy" and another time for correcting Brian Ashcraft about leaked rumors of a DS successor.

Since then, I simply choose to vote with my wallet web hits, and not visit sites completely devoid of journalistic integrity.  Apparently it's the best I can do.

PPS - since it was not mentioned, I'll just assume you went back and read that bit you missed before.

I can assure you, I haven't "missed" anything you've posted.  Unlike, apparently, you...

Again, it's useless to attempt to have this conversation with you.  Your basic premise is deeply flawed, and until you recognize that, it makes no sense to attempt to continue to discuss it with you.  It'd be like attempting to discuss the Pythagorean theorem with someone who refuses to accept that a triangle has three sides.  I'd simply be wasting your time and my time in doing it.

UncleBob-

You're right, it doesn't make any sense because you have so much trouble reading!

I clearly said "people who would be motivated to visit a Nintendo-centric site." Not "people who WRITE FOR a Nintendo-centric site."  So I guess that brings the count up to 806.

Please don't cop an attitude when that's two key concepts you've missed and then tried to snipe me on.  If you wanna talk, let's talk.  But that means you have to read and listen.  Otherwise, yea, there's no point, and you are wasting our time.

Ok, let's rewind a bit and look at your very first post in this thread.  Up until that point, the argument here was between Halbred, the writer of the article, and Majora's_Wrath over whether staff writers were driving away diehard Nintendo loyalists with articles like these.  Several of us (including myself) were chiming in on the relative worthlessness of the cards in the article, but the flow of the conversation was on the tone of the article and the tone of the site in recent years.  You chimed in with the following quote (with my emphasis on the underlined part):

It seems to me that UncleBob and everyone else here has understood you just fine.  You can try and backpedal all you like, but your rather fascist demands are right there yelling at writers and readers alike.  I especially love the bit about mocking the "this is just a blog" excuse, considering that is so obviously aimed at the staff.  You also later insisted that people address yours and Majora's mythical issue of "driving people away" with the critical articles, also a criticism aimed at the staff who write the articles. 

If you've changed your position on this, fine.  Man-up and say so.  But you can stop backpedaling and trying to pretend you were never trying to take your frustrations out on the staff as well.  You've hung yourself with your own words on that.

Now then, now that that business is out of the way, I'm getting rather tired of you making insane accusations and then demanding everyone else to supply specific data to refute you (especially since you usually have nothing but straw men, conspiracy theories, and conjecture to back up your own).  You seem to think because no one really cares that much and doesn't bother scouring the internet for that data, you actually have a worthy argument.  Well, here's two links:

Nintendojo
Nintendorks

That's two Nintendo-centric web sites other than NWR.  Nintendorks looks like the same barely-updated trash it was when I stopped reading it towards the end of the GameCube years, but there you have another Nintendo-centric website with probably mostly pro-Nintendo coverage.  Nintendojo was a decent site when I stopped reading it (also in the GameCube years), and it looks like it still is now.  I can't say for sure what the tone of its coverage is like since I haven't read it in quite a few years, but it was pretty Pro-Nintendo when I left it and at worst it looks similar to NWR's editorial.

I would also be remiss to leave out the Video Game Overthinker, who is one of the biggest Nintendo fanboys I've ever seen on the internet.  There isn't a Nintendo product or Nintendo stance on anything he doesn't love, and good god is he fond of gushing about it on his shows while deriding everything else.  I have a feeling you'd love him.

To be fair, if you look at things from the front page instead of Talkback things are clearly marked either news or blog/editorial/feature, which will tell you whether or not there's opinion there.

I always thought that all the articles in Talkback should have there classification put as part of the article to better mimic the front page a little bit.

@broodwars

You almost had a point there.  And I do apologize because in this case it is my fault for not being 100% crystal clear. (Lord knows you have to be as explicit as a legal document on the internet or else something like this happens.)

Here's what I typed:

and here's what I meant/should have typed:

See the difference? Only the last one refers to the news media and that's only because I've heard that lame excuse before.  If people get their news from you, and if you benefit from people treating you like a source for news? Guess what? You're a news outlet!

Second, I always provide direct evidence.  In the case of anti/pro-Nintendo sites, I quoted Morgan Webb and cited Kotaku's MH3 coverage.  That's what gives me the luxury of calling people's bluffs when I'm quite sure they are just pulling things out of... the blue... as Insano was in that case.

If people are going to talk as if I'm sooooooo off base and their points are sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take much effort at all to disprove them, should it? So why would that be asking too much?

Anyways, I'll check out those websites but, yet again, people are (purposefully?) confusing the many points being discussed for the sake of some arbitrary "victory" in this debate.  In the case of other websites, I would looking for a place in which the entire environment (staff, and more importantly, AUDIENCE) had at least 50% pleasant thoughts about Nintendo.

Also, I suppose it should have been assumed (but what is on the internet, right?) but I would only be interested in a quality site.  If they don't update or don't know how to write, that's not an upgrade, now is it?  :D

Funny, I didn't see that distinction made before:

and...

and...

Seriously, clarify your argument - are you upset that the people who write for the site are too anti-Nintendo or the common people who visit the site are too anti-Nintendo?

There's a front page?

Seriously, I don't feel that the articles on the front page, or even within themselves, do a very good job separating the News from the Opinion pieces.  There's one little image, on the right of the screen, that says something.  I'd like to see different columns all together.  Like, in a news paper, the Editorial page is completely separate from everything else.

Also, the term "Feature" is used too much.  On one hand, something like "The GameCube 10", which is purely an opinion piece, is labeled "Feature".  Then, the Skylander's Character guide, which is all news, is also labeled "Feature".

Since the game is released and its more of a reference I don't think its exactly News either.  Feature sort of becomes an easy catch all.  Though thats another topic.  Wonder what forum part that should go into?

You can see them separated out by category on each type of article's respective page. If you want just news, click News in the navigation bar. Separating them all on the front page would be overly busy, and there's already quite a lot going on there.

Features aren't necessarily opinion or fact, they're just supposed to go into detail about a topic.

UncleBob-

I've clarified my points many times over and none of them were that complex to begin with. If you choose to ignore when I've spelled something out explicitly for the sake of the misinterpretation that preceded it?  That's you choosing to waste your own time.

'meh.  I'm no design artist, so I can't particularly help with this (perhaps, different colored backgrounds on the different types of articles?  moving the labels to the left so they're read first?  going back to the old forum method where the blog posts were put into a blog forum?)

That's the issue though - some features are pure opinion, while others are nothing but lists of information.  I understand the idea that "Feature" = "Detailed Article", but it really blurs the line between news and opinion.

No, you've changed your points many times over.

Staff or Visitors - who needs to be more "Pro-Nintendo"?

The only thing that's news is news. Features may not be opinion-based, but they're not news; they're just facts. Ceric's right on when he calls the feature label a catch-all.

Also, next time you feel the need to respond to NinSage, let his title guide your decision.

But they're not always "facts" - The staff's top ten favorite GameCube games?  Great idea for an article, but not really factual information (well, I guess you *could* say that it's a fact you guys like those games, but that's a bit of a reach).

A better article to highlight would be the "X Days and Counting" feature.  Sure, it includes factual information, but it's not really a news piece - it's taking the bit of information (no new VC game this week) and opining on it. (Hey, this sucks... go download these great VC games!).

The fact (heh) that "Feature" is used as a catch-all simply goes to show that there is an issue with differentiating news-based articles from opinion-based pieces.  It's not really a huge deal to me - but something worth pointing out.

For the last time, news is the only thing that's news. If you want news, go to the news section. That's where it is.

Features may or may not include opinions. Most of the time they do. They do not, however, include news, which as we've established is only found in news. They may include facts that are neither opinion nor news and are instead simply information included for reference.

To recap, news can be found in, and only in, the news section. Everything else can and often does include some level of opinion, as well as the possibility of a certain amount of factual reference material.

I get what you're saying.  I'm simply saying that the site could do a better job differentiating news pieces from opinion pieces.

If individuals only check the "News" section, they'd miss out on the interviews, which get shoe-horned into the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink "Features" category as well.

Also, the Japanese e-Shop round up.  This is a great example - the first half is very clearly news.  The second half, very clearly opinion... but it's all in one article (under "Features")...

We need to have a catch-all type of category, though, or else we'd end up with way too many types of articles which would get pretty unruly very quickly.

I suppose it sounds a bit too much like toeing the company line when I say I think people should check out all of our content, regardless of what type it is. It's fairly clearly marked on the main site, and we're not trying to act like our opinion is the be all end all; the great discussions in the talkback pages are a great part of the site as well.

We maintain a very strict policy of objectivity in news, which is why something like the Japan Round-Ups you mentioned specifically aren't considered news because of their editorial content.

Uh... wow.

Anyway, I thought I'd chime in once more. Somebody did make the point that it's a blog post... which is fine, but it was linked at the very top of the site as one of it's major news articles. Kind of a blog in name only at that point, isn't it?

I would like to defend something though.

Although he may not have approached it in the best way with his first post (and maybe I didn't either), I really do agree with the sentiment that many media outlets, both for Nintendo and all systems, consistently ignore the company's best points in favor of constant cynicism over well... everything.

Nintendo is absolutely not perfect yes, and absolutely not above criticism. That's undeniable. But I feel like the pervasive media attitude for Nintendo these days is one of absolute hostility.

It's very difficult for Nintendo fans to find a place to read up on the company without being hit by a blast of overdone negativity... about everything. And I don't feel that's warranted at all.