WiiU

Final Wii U Controller to Use Traditional Analog Sticks?

by J.P. Corbran - May 19, 2012, 2:26 pm PDT
Total comments: 137 Source: https://twitter.com/#!/MATTYB00SH/status/203939010...

A tester's Twitter post shows a picture of a Wii U controller with analog sticks.

The Wii U controller may have traditional analog sticks, as opposed to the Circle Pads from the model shown at E3 2011, according to a photo posted by someone claiming to be a QA Tester at TT Games.

The unit also shows the + and - buttons moved to a more reachable position below the A, B, X, and Y buttons, similar to the layout of the DS Lite and DSi, instead of on the sides of the Home button below the screen. An additional unmarked button is located next to the Power button and an unidentified square resides below the D-pad. The headphone jack and stylus slot have been relocated and the controller appears wider overall.

The controller matches European filings for an alternate Wii U controller design that were filed simultaneously with the design shown at last year's E3. Both designs were filed on May  12, 2011 and published on February 2 of this year. Not visible in the photograph are contoured handles on the reverse of tablet.

TT Games is currently developing Lego City Stories for the Wii U. The tester's Twitter post and photo, which showed the controller connected to debugging hardware, were quickly removed. It is not certain whether the controller represents an intermediate design or one closer to the final version.

Thanks to Caterkiller on the forums for the tip.

Images

Talkback

supergttMay 19, 2012

the button placement is pretty much exactly what it was on that patent image from a bit ago.

red14May 19, 2012

I knew 3ds like analog seemed a little too extract. Raised analog looks better to common consumers anyway.

the asylumMay 19, 2012

Good.

I can understand something like the Circle Pad for 3DS, since it has to close flat. Having them on the tablet controller did not feel great at E3 last year, and this is a change I've wanted to see ever since. Exciting!

Killer_Man_JaroTom Malina, Associate Editor (Europe)May 19, 2012

Fair play. I wouldn't have objected to Circle Pads, but this seems like a smart modification.

LUIGI205May 19, 2012

Do I spy a DSi charger? :O

CaterkillerMatthew Osborne, Contributing WriterMay 19, 2012

Glad to help Insano.

It seems the pic was taken down from Twitter. So I guess that "proves" it's legit. I would like to know if this person get's fired. I can't imagine no one told him that showing anything Wii U related to the public was a big "no no."

TurdFurgyMay 19, 2012

I hope those sticks click. I photoshoped a design change a while back if you're interested in taking a peek.
http://www.gameinformer.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/610x0/__key/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles/00-00-00-73-12/8284.Wii-U-controller-fixed.jpg
One of the biggest changes is a swivel camera.

broodwarsMay 19, 2012

Well, it's definitely a step in the right direction for the Wii U, if this design is real and the final version.  Having the 3DS Circle Pads over real analog sticks was my biggest problem with controller design unveiled at last year's E3.  After all my time with my new Vita, having the touch screen be multi-touch would be another good step I'd hope to see.

Mii maanMay 19, 2012

Tough decision. Do you go with aesthetics or playability... I'm game for either choice and believe the circle pads for Wii U may work better than its 3DS counterpart; believing the circle pads coupled with the 3DS miniature design led to hand cramps. But don't forget the vitality sensor.

Quote from: TurdFurgy

One of the biggest changes is a swivel camera.

It would probably better to just use two cameras so you don't have to worry about breaking it or moving it.

famicomplicatedJames Charlton, Staff AlumnusMay 19, 2012

Looks like the Nintendo gods listened to Jonny on RFN! :-P

Spak-SpangMay 19, 2012

Interesting picture there seems to possibly be a button or something below the D-Pad on the left side.  Also, more buttons and switches on the bottom. 


I think there is more to the controller than we first saw.



broodwarsMay 19, 2012

Quote from: Spak-Spang

Interesting picture there seems to possibly be a button or something below the D-Pad on the left side.

I think that's probably a button to power-off the controller. It's in just the right place for one.

Hmm...looking at the controller picture again, I still hate that the analog sticks are up at the top of the controller, with the Dpad and buttons underneath them.  I can at least entertain the notion as to why the Dpad "needs" to be where it is, but c'mon having the buttons below the right analog stick is just so counter-intuitive to traditional controller design.

MiyamotoMay 19, 2012

Can someone tell me how I'm supposed to get to sleep for the next 15 nights waiting for E3?... I might watch last years presser for the memories...



shinyray01May 19, 2012

Analog stick seems to be the same one used for the Nunchuck.
Question, did the model in E3 have a mic?

TizonaMay 19, 2012

Is anyone a little sad to the "Wii-u" logo on the bottom of the tablet. If this is indeed the final revision, does this mean we are stuck with the name?

Everything else on it looks pretty good compared to the design shown last year. I just keep hoping for a better name....

I personally think they're keeping the name, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that, were they going to change it, they wouldn't put the new one on anything until they were ready to announce it. It makes sense to give developers hardware that matches what players use, but it doesn't really matter what logo they slap on it.

Quote from: shinyray01


Question, did the model in E3 have a mic?

Yes.

ROiDSMay 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Hmm...looking at the controller picture again, I still hate that the analog sticks are up at the top of the controller, with the Dpad and buttons underneath them.  I can at least entertain the notion as to why the Dpad "needs" to be where it is, but c'mon having the buttons below the right analog stick is just so counter-intuitive to traditional controller design.

I tried emulating the control scheme of this controller with the the other controllers, and it felt the same to me. In fact, I think it gave me a better control and better comfort with the analogs being on top than on the bottom. I'm sure that the new placements of the buttons and analogs will not complicate of getting used to.

VahneMay 20, 2012

If this is true, then nice that the + and - buttons have moved. But analog sticks? I can easily live without them, since I prefer Nintendo's circle pads over any analog stick. Oh well, at least they're using the Classic Controller/Nunchuk sticks, shouldn't have problems with those, though I wonder if using raised sticks will make the tab controller harder to hold.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorMay 20, 2012

Someone's gonna be in trouble...

Unless, of course, this is yet another in the pre-E3 "leaks" Nintendo has planned.

BlackNMild2k1May 20, 2012

well, considering that that twitter account and the twicpic have been wiped off the face of the internet, *cough*nintenjas*cough* I wouldn't be so sure about that.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorMay 20, 2012

Still would't surprise me.  I mean, I still fall in the "in trouble" idea, but using a random Twitter account as a "fall guy" wouldn't surprise me one bit.  Anything to keep the bees buzzing...

CericMay 20, 2012

I don't like the new analog change at all.  *Shrug* I'm in the minority.

Pixelated PixiesMay 20, 2012

Is it just me or does it seem like there's too much space between where the D-Pad is located and the edge of the controller? It's hard to tell how big this tablet is without actually seeing it in person, but based on the image it looks like there's a significant amount of plastic between the D-Pad and where your hand would naturally grip the controller.

Yeah, it's wider than the original. I hope they shrink it in the final version.

SeaNetMay 20, 2012

The (+) and (-) has been side labled Start and Select! WOO HOO! Missed that on the Wii Remote  ;D

MorariMay 20, 2012

And yet the controller still looks retarded as Hell...

TeaHeeMay 20, 2012

I like it.  I like the look with the new curves, and I prefer sticks to pads.  Now, if they can just get two of these to work at once, I will be happy.

SeaNetMay 20, 2012

Maybe they will sell an accessory that will let you use use the other stick instead. It could latch onto the side of the controller and maybe even add more trigger buttons. And they could sell it for about $20 or so and make some money off the thing :)

ThomasOMay 20, 2012

The Twitter post has been removed.


Looks like someone got fired and possibly is getting sued...

BlackNMild2k1May 20, 2012

Quote from: TeaHee

I like it.  I like the look with the new curves, and I prefer sticks to pads.  Now, if they can just get two of these to work at once, I will be happy.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=16688.msg733892#msg733892

and apparently there is some documentation from NOE, floating around somewhere, stating that 2 uMotes are possible too.
edit: http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=34617.msg734063#new

broodwarsMay 20, 2012

Quote from: ROiDS

I tried emulating the control scheme of this controller with the the other controllers, and it felt the same to me. In fact, I think it gave me a better control and better comfort with the analogs being on top than on the bottom. I'm sure that the new placements of the buttons and analogs will not complicate of getting used to.

Beyond the issue of the control layout being contrary to the standard layout that every other console (other than the Wii) uses, I have concerns about the weight distribution of the controller when you're essentially gripping it by the top half of the controller rather than the bottom half.  Plus, when every other handheld (including Nintendo's own) has you looking up to view the embedded screen, it's just weird IMO to suddenly have to look down to see the Wii U tablet screen.

NinSageMay 20, 2012

Quote from: Ceric

I don't like the new analog change at all.  *Shrug* I'm in the minority.

Count me in.  Circle pads are the best directional input I'd ever felt =\

Oh well... analog sticks aren't exactly bad =)

house3136May 20, 2012

The analog control change is smart for Nintendo. Is it just me, or are the sides of the controller wider than the prototype? The buttons and D-pad are moved in, but the proximity to the screen looks the same. Maybe the small squares on the left and bottom are part of NFC?

famicomplicatedJames Charlton, Staff AlumnusMay 20, 2012

It makes sense to change it. They probably got so much feedback from devs, plus the complaints from E3 2011, I mean they could hardly start off their new "for the core gamers" system by ignoring them from the get go.
Then again, this is Nintendo we're talking about here!

Chozo GhostMay 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

having the buttons below the right analog stick is just so counter-intuitive to traditional controller design.

And that's what makes it great.

Just because Sony used the same crappy layout over and over again for 15 years doesn't mean their competitors should stoop to that level. Nintendo keeps innovating their controllers each and every generation, whereas Microsoft and Sony keep regurgitating the same thing over and over again.

I wish there was some colorful buttons, but I am pleased with this layout. If Nintendo made it a carbon copy of the dualshock you would probably be pleased, but I wouldn't be. I hate the dualshock layout.

Quote from: famicomplicated

they could hardly start off their new "for the core gamers" system by ignoring them from the get go.

Sadly, the "Wii U" logo appears on the controller in the image which means there is little chance that Nintendo is going to change the name of the console to anything even remotely "core gamer" friendly. I guess we will be stuck with a crappy console name for another 5+ years, but even though the name may suck the system itself may be cool.

broodwarsMay 20, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

Just because Sony used the same crappy layout over and over again for 15 years doesn't mean their competitors should stoop to that level.

Sony's been using the same controller layout since the PS1 because Nintendo got it right the second time with the SNES controller (which they've since copied, for the most part, with the two Wii Classic Controllers).  I don't believe in "fixing" or "innovating" what isn't broken, especially since this is supposed to be designed for more traditional games (and in particular 3rd party games).  Nintendo "innovating" their controller design is what's led to such "glorious" layout/button designs as the N64; GameCube; and Wiimote controllers.  "Innovation" for its own sake doesn't make it "better".  Design standards become standards for good reason: they are proven, reliable, widely-adopted, and popular.

This is why I prefer that Nintendo focus its efforts as a software company: their hardware "innovations" usually don't pan out as well.

Chozo GhostMay 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

GameCube;

I hope you weren't being sarcastic. The Gamecube controller was bar none the best controller I've ever used. Its the most comfortable and user friendly. The grips are adequately large, unlike the dualshock's barely existent nubs. The dualshock's nubs are too tiny for my hands so my bottom two fingers have nothing to grip onto... its like the dualshock was designed for children's hands, and so dare I say it is a kiddie controller? Meanwhile, the Gamecube controller despite being as colorful as it is, is more friendly for adult hands.

The Gamecube controller design failed only because the Gamecube itself failed. It doesn't mean it is inferior to the Dualshock. Consumers generally buy consoles based on the games available for it. They don't base their console purchase on controller preference, so you can't say that the Gamecube controller design was unpopular. The gamecube failed, sure, but the controller had nothing to do with that.

And you say "if its not broke why fix it?". Well, I have to say the Dualshock design IS broke. Its been broke ever since it was introduced in 1997. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. Just because they kept using it all this time doesn't mean its the best way to go, it just means they are too lazy or don't care about improving it. At least the Boomerang controller they almost introduced for the PS3 would have got the grip problem right. Too bad they backed down and took the "safe" road by going with the same crappy design since 1997.

I'm glad Nintendo isn't like that. I'm glad they change things and shake things up. For better or worse, we wouldn't have things like the D-Pad or analog stick if it weren't for Nintendo. You would be saying the Atari Joystick is "tradition" and its "not broke so why fix it?" so by that logic that's what we would still be using today because technically that is "good enough". The D-Pad and Analog stick are far superior, but 30 years ago only the joystick existed. So innovation is a good thing, and both of those were brought to us by Nintendo.

I strongly disagree with your statement that Nintendo should stop innovating with hardware. If you really believe that then you should stop using your dualshock controller, because most of it was a direct rip off of Nintendo's innovation.

If Nintendo's innovations suck so badly why does Sony keep stealing them, and why do they end up becoming industry standards?

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Plus, when every other handheld (including Nintendo's own) has you looking up to view the embedded screen, it's just weird IMO to suddenly have to look down to see the Wii U tablet screen.

The original Game Boy Advance had a very similar layout to the Wii U controller, as did the Game Boy Micro (which was a complete flop). So this isn't uncharted territory for Nintendo.

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

If Nintendo's innovations suck so badly why does Sony keep stealing them, and why do they end up becoming industry standards?

To give credit to Sony, they did create the dual analog setup that is now used in every modern controller, including the GameCube, Wii Classic Controller, Xbox, Xbox 360, and now the Wii U controller.


Sony created the standard by which all modern controllers are judged, dual analog controls. And I despise them for it.

BlackNMild2k1May 20, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: Chozo

If Nintendo's innovations suck so badly why does Sony keep stealing them, and why do they end up becoming industry standards?

To give credit to Sony, they did create the dual analog setup that is now used in every modern controller, including the GameCube, Wii Classic Controller, Xbox, Xbox 360, and now the Wii U controller.


Sony created the standard by which all modern controllers are judged, dual analog controls. And I despise them for it.

Gotta give Sony credit for taking Nintendo's idea and doubling it....

Nintendo makes the SNES controller, it has 2 shoulder button.
Sony takes the SNES controller, adds handles, breaks the d-pad, and doubles the shoulder buttons. *applaud* Good job Sony.

Nintendo makes the analog thumstick and adds a rumble pack
Sony adds 2 of them (2 analog thumbsticks and 2 rumble motors) to Nintendo's SNES controller the controller we now call dual shock. *applaud* Good job Sony.

Nintendo creates the wiimote with a nunchuck for disjointed motion controller play
first Sony throws in a gyro to their dual shock... realizes that isn't gonna cut it, and then....
Sony creates Move..... totally not inspired by the wiimote and the nunchuch at all..... *applaud* Good job Sony

How does Sony do it? One of life's greatest mysteries.


http://i.imgur.com/dEqp8.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/LqMQ9.jpg

Chozo GhostMay 20, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

To give credit to Sony, they did create the dual analog setup that is now used in every modern controller, including the GameCube, Wii Classic Controller, Xbox, Xbox 360, and now the Wii U controller.

I guess so... but its pretty lame that their most remarkable innovation is taking something someone else invented and then doubling it.

That would be like if after Gutenberg invented the printing press someone came along and stole his idea and made a dual printing press, and then that person's fanboys go on about what an awesome innovation that is, even though the real achievement was done by Gutenberg. The other person basically just stole it and made a simple modification, maybe also replacing the letters with squares and circles and triangles.

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: Chozo

If Nintendo's innovations suck so badly why does Sony keep stealing them, and why do they end up becoming industry standards?

To give credit to Sony, they did create the dual analog setup that is now used in every modern controller, including the GameCube, Wii Classic Controller, Xbox, Xbox 360, and now the Wii U controller.


Sony created the standard by which all modern controllers are judged, dual analog controls. And I despise them for it.

Gotta give Sony credit for taking Nintendo's idea and doubling it....

Nintendo makes the SNES controller, it has 2 shoulder button.
Sony takes the SNES controller, adds handles, breaks the d-pad, and doubles the shoulder buttons. *applaud* Good job Sony.

Nintendo makes the analog thumstick and adds a rumble pack
Sony adds 2 of them (2 analog thumbsticks and 2 rumble motors) to Nintendo's SNES controller the controller we now call dual shock. *applaud* Good job Sony.

Nintendo creates the wiimote with a nunchuck for disjointed motion controller play
first Sony throws in a gyro to their dual shock... realizes that isn't gonna cut it, and then....
Sony creates Move..... totally not inspired by the wiimote and the nunchuch at all..... *applaud* Good job Sony

How does Sony do it? One of life's greatest mysteries.

Then Nintendo copied Sony's DualShock when they made the GameCube and Wii Classic Controller. They also copied the PSP's analog nub when they made the 3DS. Nintendo can copy too, you know.

Chozo GhostMay 20, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Then Nintendo copied Sony's DualShock when they made the GameCube and Wii Classic Controller. They also copied the PSP's analog nub when they made the 3DS. Nintendo can copy too, you know.

It isn't theft when you are taking back something someone stole from you in the first place.

BlackNMild2k1May 20, 2012

I've never used a PSP's analog nub, but for what I've heard, the 3DS' Analog Slider and the PSP's Analog nubs are nothing alike.

But the Classic Controller Pro is a direct rip of the Dual Shock which is an evolved copy of the SNES controller, so I think they are even there.

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Then Nintendo copied Sony's DualShock when they made the GameCube and Wii Classic Controller. They also copied the PSP's analog nub when they made the 3DS. Nintendo can copy too, you know.

It isn't theft when you are taking back something someone stole from you in the first place.

Sony created the PSP's analog nub all on their own. :)

BlackNMild2k1May 20, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: Chozo

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Then Nintendo copied Sony's DualShock when they made the GameCube and Wii Classic Controller. They also copied the PSP's analog nub when they made the 3DS. Nintendo can copy too, you know.

It isn't theft when you are taking back something someone stole from you in the first place.

Sony created the PSP's analog nub all on their own. :)

I hear they sucked. Maybe they should use the 3DS's sliders next time ;)

How are Vita's analog nubs?

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

How are Vita's analog nubs?

They're actually mini analog sticks, and they're terrible. Too small to use properly, and they feel too loose.

Chozo GhostMay 20, 2012

A nub is no substitute for a full sized Wii.

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

A nub is no substitute for a full sized Wii.

Well, many men don't have full-sized Wii's... So they have to stick with what they've got.  :P:

broodwarsMay 20, 2012

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

How are Vita's analog nubs?

The Vita's analog sticks are just that: analog sticks, as opposed to the PSP's sliding nub.  As for their quality, eh they're ok.  My biggest problem with them is that because the sticks are so small, there's very little play in them.  You don't have that fine degree of tilt to the sticks that you have in console analog sticks.  In my experience, though, it only took me about an hour or so to get used to them when I was playing Uncharted GA, and they work fine.

And you want to know what was wrong with the GameCube controller, Chozo?  How about the tiny Dpad Nintendo took from the GBA?  How about the oddly-shaped (kidney) X and Y buttons and the relatively huge A button (and I wasn't fond of the relatively tiny B button either), all laid out in a manner that was fine for Nintendo's own titles but problematic for 3rd parties?  How about that useless Z button that was placed too far up to be easily pressed, and it hurt your finger to do so because the button didn't have enough play in it?  Compared to the N64 and Wiimote controllers, yeah the GameCube's was quite an improvement. But that controller had its problems, just like the others.

And by the way, this

Quote:

I strongly disagree with your statement that Nintendo should stop innovating with hardware

is not what I said.  I said "innovation for its own sake doesn't make it 'better'.  If there's a genuine innovation you can add to a controller, like the N64 analog stick, then you aren't just changing things for the sake of changing them.  You're improving the design.  Unfortunately, a lot of Nintendo's other hardware changes just feel like Nintendo being "different" because they wanted to be "different", not because they wanted to improve the design.  There's good reason Sony and Microsoft never stole the N64 or GameCube's controller designs in making their own controllers, and all they stole from the Wiimote was the concept of a motion controller: Nintendo's "innovations" did not result in a controller so good it became the new Industry Standard.

Chozo GhostMay 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Nintendo's "innovations" did not result in a controller so good it became the new Industry Standard.

Well, considering that the Dualshock is nothing more than the SNES controller with grips and a couple analog sticks slapped on, I think I would disagree...

But another thing to note is there is no industry standard for controllers anymore.  10 years ago the PS2 had 90% market share so the Dualshock could rightly be considered the industry standard, but Sony's market share has shrunk drastically since then and I don't know how much they have at this point, but they are in third place so they have less than a third of the total market share. Clearly 1/3 of the market can not be considered an industry standard.

Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony all have competing controller designs, and unless one of them somehow manages to grab a near monopoly (very unlikely), or if they start blatantly copying each other then there is no way we are going to see a clear cut industry standard for controller design anytime soon. I suspect this upcoming generation will be a 3 way race with no clear cut winner and all three competitors having more or less around the same amount of market share. The point is there won't be an industry standard.

therockandrollgamerMay 20, 2012

I'm so excited with the movement of the big N this year. Today we get Mario Tennis and the purple 3DS with a great lineup on the way.


As for the Wii U controller I like the analogue fix; I think adjusting the right thumb moving from analogue stick down will be easy considering with the PS3 and Xbox we are moving from right analogue up (as far as thumb movement) will be easy.  That form of movement would be from buttons to analogue, etc.


It's a bit different. I assume there has to be shoulder buttons? That would be a must have for shooter games.

MagicCow64May 20, 2012

I also hate the Dual Shock. I have big hands and they start cramping almost immediately. This is one of the reasons I would not consider getting a Sony Console, until they change the friggin' controller.

In general, though, the "standard" control set up for consoles has only been around since the PS2/Dreamcast. There's plenty of room for evolution and re-designs. The Dual Shock set up should be considered the Model-T of controllers. If anything the Wii U tablet screen might highlight the arbitrariness of the the current standard with customizable touch button layouts.

As far as Sony creating dual analogue sticks, this is technically true, but from what I recall most PS1 games didn't do much of anything with the second stick (much like most PS3 games don't do anything with the gyroscope). The PS1 couldn't really output 3D, and sprite-based FPSes were pretty much done. I am remembering this wrong? If not, the credit for actually utilizing the sticks should probably go to the Dreamcast.

Mop it upMay 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Nintendo "innovating" their controller design is what's led to such "glorious" layout/button designs as the N64; GameCube; and Wiimote controllers.

I'm sure this is sarcasm, but I agree with it at face value. These three controllers are the best ones in existence as far as I'm concerned, and all better than Sony's effort.

That's kind of the problem with controllers though, there's no one design that can suit everyone. Ideally, each system would offer controllers of varying design so people can get the ones they like, but that may not ever be financially viable.

OblivionMay 20, 2012

Did you just say that the N64 controller is one of the best in existance? Same with the Gamecube? I really hope you are blinded by nostalgia.

The GameCube controller is fantastic, easily the most comfortable controller I've ever held and I never had any problems with the button layout, although I would admit the D-Pad is too small and the C-Stick is poorly designed. A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever. The N64 controller had an interesting layout, but having only one stick (and one of pretty poor quality) held it back. I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

broodwarsMay 20, 2012

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

The strength of the SNES/Dual Shock/Classic Controller Pro design, though, is that it's capable of handling about every gaming experience you can throw at it on a console, save Real-Time Strategy games.  That flexibility is what has made that general design (which the PS3; 360 use; and Wii Classic Controller all use, with some deviations) the accepted standard for traditional games today.  Considering it was Nintendo's design originally with the SNES, I have to raise my eyebrow a bit at how many people here criticize it.

EDIT: On the subject of the controller itself, I'm curious where your palms are supposed to rest with this design.  On the Classic Controller Pro or Dualshock, my palm rests over the front handle grips and the other half and fingers on the back grips.  If I'm understanding this layout correctly, though, with the Wii U your right palm would be largely resting right on top of the buttons while you're using the right stick.  That could be problematic.

OblivionMay 20, 2012

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

The GameCube controller is fantastic, easily the most comfortable controller I've ever held and I never had any problems with the button layout, although I would admit the D-Pad is too small and the C-Stick is poorly designed. A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever. The N64 controller had an interesting layout, but having only one stick (and one of pretty poor quality) held it back. I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

You must have large hands.

Mop it upMay 20, 2012

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever.

I agree about that. The D-pad and the C-stick design are my only problems with it, but even they were never much issue for me. Swap around the D-pad and left stick on the Classic Controller Pro, and give it the GameCube's shoulder buttons, and it'd be the best traditional controller. However, even that wouldn't compare to the Wiimote and Nunchuk, which is the most comfortable controller I have ever used largely due to its disconnected design.

The N64's stick is my favourite stick because it has more resistance than other sticks, which makes it easier for me to move it distances other than the full way. Or at least, it feels great until it grinds down from use, but applying a little ceramic grease prevents that from happening and keeps it working like new.

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

The strength of the SNES/Dual Shock/Classic Controller Pro design, though, is that it's capable of handling about every gaming experience you can throw at it on a console, save Real-Time Strategy games.  That flexibility is what has made that general design (which the PS3; 360 use; and Wii Classic Controller all use, with some deviations) the accepted standard for traditional games today.  Considering it was Nintendo's design originally with the SNES, I have to raise my eyebrow a bit at how many people here criticize it.

EDIT: On the subject of the controller itself, I'm curious where your palms are supposed to rest with this design.  On the Classic Controller Pro or Dualshock, my palm rests over the front handle grips and the other half and fingers on the back grips.  If I'm understanding this layout correctly, though, with the Wii U your right palm would be largely resting right on top of the buttons while you're using the right stick.  That could be problematic.

The NES controller was also Nintendo's design originally and I'd call anyone, even Nintendo, crazy for making it a main layout on a modern device. There's a reason companies that aren't Sony change their controller each generation, because they incorporate new ideas intended to make it better. I wouldn't even have a problem if they just made it more ergonomic and got rid of the awful slotted D-Pad (which is basically what Nintendo did when they made the Classic Controller Pro), and if they also moved the left analog to its proper position it would be a great layout, but Sony's content to stick with the one they made two decades ago.

Quote from: Oblivion

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

The GameCube controller is fantastic, easily the most comfortable controller I've ever held and I never had any problems with the button layout, although I would admit the D-Pad is too small and the C-Stick is poorly designed. A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever. The N64 controller had an interesting layout, but having only one stick (and one of pretty poor quality) held it back. I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

You must have large hands.

Well you know what they say about that...

RachtMay 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

EDIT: On the subject of the controller itself, I'm curious where your palms are supposed to rest with this design.  On the Classic Controller Pro or Dualshock, my palm rests over the front handle grips and the other half and fingers on the back grips.  If I'm understanding this layout correctly, though, with the Wii U your right palm would be largely resting right on top of the buttons while you're using the right stick.  That could be problematic.

Not at all.

And yes, that mock-up is correct in terms of length and height. The newly rounded corners will rest perfectly in the palms of your hands; and you'll have the ability to perfectly reach both sticks/D-pad and buttons/triggers perfectly. I'm stoked about this thing now. PLUS! It now has round "controller-like" handles on the backsides. :)


EDIT: Fixed image link. :)

broodwarsMay 20, 2012

Something's wrong with your image link, Rachtman.

MagicCow64May 20, 2012

Quote:

However, even that wouldn't compare to the Wiimote and Nunchuk, which is the most comfortable controller I have ever used largely due to its disconnected design.

This isn't mentioned enough. The button layout on the Wiimote isn't ideal for some games, but being able to sit and hold your hands however you want is great. I will miss that.

tendoboy1984May 20, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Microsoft never stole the ... GameCube's controller designs in making their own controllers

They mainly copied the Dreamcast controller, but you can still see influences from the GameCube controller.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b151/lordofchaosiori/xbox_controller_s.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/ssb/images/8/80/GCCont.jpg
http://astraldojo.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/dreamcast-controller-1vcm-460.jpg


Also, the Dreamcast controller shows how an analog stick placed near the top edge of the controller works well.



RachtMay 20, 2012

Yeah, it's not bad placement at all. My only beef with the Dreamcast controller was its god-awful underside design. I cringe holding that thing.

broodwarsMay 21, 2012

Quote from: Rachtman

Yeah, it's not bad placement at all. My only beef with the Dreamcast controller was its god-awful underside design. I cringe holding that thing.

My problem with the Dreamcast controller (especially after seeing a picture of it again to remind me) is that it was just so frickin' huge.  The few times I played a Dreamcast game in store demos, I always had trouble figuring out how to hold the damn thing.  How appropriate that that was the main complaint most people had about the original Xbox controller as well before the smaller redesign model.

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

tendoboy1984May 21, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons? Having a more symmetrical design makes the controller look more appealing, at least to me. And for games that use the D-pad as a primary input method (2D platformers), the Classic Controller Pro and DualShock are perfect.

broodwarsMay 21, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: broodwars

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons?

Because as I already stated, when the stick is above the buttons your thumb and part of your palm end up resting on the buttons while using the stick.  Even Rachtman's mock concept model image seems to show this.  It's kind of hard to tell from that angle.  When the stick is below the buttons, your hand remains largely on the controller casing where it belongs.  A stick being smaller than a wide formation of buttons, you can also easily angle your thumb away from the stick while using the buttons in that configuration as well.

I'll see for myself how the controller feels when the Wii U eventually hits GameStop or whatnot as a demo unit, but right now I just don't see this layout playing well with me.

tendoboy1984May 21, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: broodwars

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons?

Because as I already stated, when the stick is above the buttons your thumb and part of your palm end up resting on the buttons while using the stick.  Even Rachtman's mock concept model image seems to show this.  It's kind of hard to tell from that angle.  When the stick is below the buttons, your hand remains largely on the controller casing where it belongs.  A stick being smaller than a wide formation of buttons, you can also easily angle your thumb away from the stick while using the buttons in that configuration as well.

I'll see for myself how the controller feels when the Wii U eventually hits GameStop or whatnot as a demo unit, but right now I just don't see this layout playing well with me.

So you'd prefer the DualShock setup where both sticks are below the buttons in a horizontal line?

broodwarsMay 21, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

So you'd prefer the DualShock setup where both sticks are below the buttons in a horizontal line?

Or the GameCube/360 setup where the left analog stick is prominently placed upward in contrast to the lower right stick, yes.  Most of the games I play are based in 3D environments: RPGs, shooters, adventure games, etc.  I tend to be playing camera/aiming management a little more often than I need to use the buttons, so my right hand's natural position for most games is to sit on the right grip with my right thumb over the right stick, and then swap to using the buttons as necessary.  To that end, either of those 2 setups match my playing style better.  This setup seems designed for people who keep their thumbs over the buttons normally, and then swap over to the stick when necessary.

RachtMay 21, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: broodwars

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons?

Because as I already stated, when the stick is above the buttons your thumb and part of your palm end up resting on the buttons while using the stick.  Even Rachtman's mock concept model image seems to show this.  It's kind of hard to tell from that angle.  When the stick is below the buttons, your hand remains largely on the controller casing where it belongs.  A stick being smaller than a wide formation of buttons, you can also easily angle your thumb away from the stick while using the buttons in that configuration as well.

I'll see for myself how the controller feels when the Wii U eventually hits GameStop or whatnot as a demo unit, but right now I just don't see this layout playing well with me.

Keep in mind, too, that the redesign has analog sticks that are lifted up above the buttons. The arch of your thumb as you're moving the stick around should keep it clear of even any chance of accidentally pressing one of the face buttons. Now, if it were still the slide pads from the original design, I could see this being a problem as they set lower in to the controller. Maybe that's another reason for the redesign? Who knows?... But we sure will find out in two weeks from now once we get tons of impressions from all of the e3 goers.

SonofMrPeanutMay 21, 2012

I don't notice anyone else doing this, so I might as well go for it:  This was an earlier version of the controller.


Why do I believe this?  Gather round the campfire, kids,  Peanut's got some theorizin' to share.


You may remember some patents being made public around late February where the Upad (as I'll call it) was pictured as having analog sticks.  You can see them pictured in this article.  In the articles that presented these photos, these were accompanied with the claim that Nintendo originally intended for the Upad to have dual analog sticks and not circle pads.  It's said here that the patents were filed at the time of E3 2011, but it's possible those designs were the functional build and not the conceptual one.  Fast forward to Friday where we saw a patent that shows wiimote-Upad interaction, and the one pictured resembles the Upad from E3 2011.  Katsuya Eguchi, a senior video game designer at Nintendo, has also stated that the company believes circle pads are the aesthetically and ergonomically superior form of analog control.  Granted this was back in July, but it was after the E3 conference.  While Nintendo may be just showing the old model to keep the new one in secrecy, it's also possible that the pictured model was actually done away with and the model we saw is basically the model we're getting.


With all this in mind, I'm very hesitant to believe Nintendo would bother returning to their old design when they believe so strongly in the opposite choice.  Sure they changed their tune pretty quickly about the 3DS in a few cases, but this doesn't appear to be one of those cases.  I don't, however, doubt that this was an actual version of the controller at one point, and I believe it explains why the employee on Twitter felt safe posting a photo of it.  They assumed that Nintendo would be less likely to react to an older version of the Upad being posted than the current build of the Upad being posted.  Based on how quickly the photo was taken down, though, Nintendo clearly treats any hardware leak equally.


So what do I think of this?  While the sticks might have offered a kind of precision the circle pads can't, the CPs fit better with the build of the controller.  Having a consistently flat surface would be less cumbersome than having these two sticks popping out, and they would lend themselves better to clicking if those rumors turn out to be true.  Another reason I'd be happy with this outcome is that the E3 2011 button layout is far better spaced, the only potential advantage of the old one being the diagonal placement of the right stick (but that ultimately comes down to personal preference).  I do hope Nintendo keeps the LED notification system that's very evident on the pictured controller's home button.

tendoboy1984May 21, 2012

Here's where you might be wrong. The QA tester at TellTale Games posted that tweet a few days ago, meaning they just recieved a developer kit from Nintendo. This kit is more than likely a newer one, meaning it has the updated controller design and newer internal hardware.


This is the near-final controller design, you can bet on it. Plus, a few people on NeoGaf misread those patents. Apparently, the patent with the analog sticks is the newer one, while the one with the slide pads is the older one.


Also, if this picture was just a prototype model, why would the QA tester delete his twitter account so quickly? He was obviously under some strict NDA that he broke, so he doesn't want to do any further damage to his reputation. But it's too late now, the internet has already seen it.

SonofMrPeanutMay 21, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Here's where you might be wrong. The QA tester at TellTale Games posted that tweet a few days ago, meaning they just recieved a developer kit from Nintendo. This kit is more than likely a newer one, meaning it has the updated controller design and newer internal hardware.


This is the near-final controller design, you can bet on it. Plus, a few people on NeoGaf misread those patents. Apparently, the patent with the analog sticks is the newer one, while the one with the  slide pads is the older one.


Also, if this picture was just a prototype model, why would the QA tester delete his twitter account so quickly? He was obviously under some strict NDA that he broke, so he doesn't want to do any further damage to his reputation. But it's too late now, the internet has already seen it.

The Eguchi quote could also be interpreted as being in the past tense, since he was talking about how they felt at the time.  I'll believe he was declaring the company stance, though, until further proof is provided.


I'm going to disagree, however, that he wouldn't have deleted his account this hastily if he had shared a picture of an older build.  I'd expect Nintendo to react to any hardware leak of this nature concerning the Wii U in the same manner, not making a distinction between stages of development (with the exception of what's been shown to the public).

Chozo GhostMay 21, 2012

How can anyone possibly think the grips on the Dualshock controller are long enough? They're like only 2 inches long. Maybe for a child's hands that is sufficient, but isn't the PS3 supposed to be a "mature non-kiddie" console like Kevin Butler always tells us? If what Kevin Butler and the Sony Fanboys tell us about the PS3 is true, then why the heck is the controller not suited for Adult hands?

I have searched many times on places like Amazon to see if there was some kind of shell or something the dualshock controller can snap into which extends the length of the grips to a more adequate length, but I could never find anything. There are plenty of third party controllers which do address the grip length problem, but the third party controllers always have sloppy accuracy and responsiveness with the analog sticks... so I just can't seem to get this problem solved. Does anyone know of a solution?

tendoboy1984May 21, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

How can anyone possibly think the grips on the Dualshock controller are long enough? They're like only 2 inches long. Maybe for a child's hands that is sufficient, but isn't the PS3 supposed to be a "mature non-kiddie" console like Kevin Butler always tells us? If what Kevin Butler and the Sony Fanboys tell us about the PS3 is true, then why the heck is the controller not suited for Adult hands?

I have searched many times on places like Amazon to see if there was some kind of shell or something the dualshock controller can snap into which extends the length of the grips to a more adequate length, but I could never find anything. There are plenty of third party controllers which do address the grip length problem, but the third party controllers always have sloppy accuracy and responsiveness with the analog sticks... so I just can't seem to get this problem solved. Does anyone know of a solution?

I have a PS3 and a Wii, and I just held the DualShock and Classic Controller Pro in my hands to compare them.


They feel very similar, but the CC Pro does feel a bit more comfortable (it's easier to grip). I have average-sized hands, and while the DualShock feels too cramped and compact, I do like the weight of the controller.


As for the analog sticks, the DualShock's sticks feel much more precise and less flimsy than the CC Pro's sticks. They also have more surface area, which is a huge plus for games that require lots of movement.

FZeroBoyoMay 21, 2012

Well, the control sticks should help people calm down a bit, but another note is the logo on the controller; it seems that Nintendo is sticking with Wii U. Guess we should all learn to live with it, huh?

AdrockMay 21, 2012

We should have learned to live with it last year. For people who aren't ready to accept it, the last thing to grasp to is the idea that if Nintendo were to change the name, they wouldn't print the new name on things until they were ready to announce it. At the same time, they might have stopped printing the Wii U name on things. Who knows how old that redesigned controller is?

Quote from: Chozo

How can anyone possibly think the grips on the Dualshock controller are long enough?

I have small hands so I never really had a major issue with it. I always liked the GameCube controller more but I don't hate the Dual Shock controller. I admit that Sony should seriously consider a redesign. It's almost a good controller. I never felt that it was unusable; just that there's no reason for it to not be better.

Chozo GhostMay 21, 2012

Even if that picture is recent, it wouldn't necessarily prove that the Wii U name is final. Have they even begun mass producing these things? The one we see in the picture is just a prototype. Maybe its a finalized prototype, but to change the logo on it is trivial. Only after mass production of these things begin will it be set in stone.

broodwarsMay 21, 2012

*shrugs*

I've never had a problem holding the grips on either of the Dualshocks.  Without a point of comparison, I can't say if that means I have small hands or not, but maybe so since I don't have an issue holding the Vita either.

My main issues with the Dualshock 3 design are those horrible L2 and R2 triggers, which feel extremely loose because they slide down and inward in an arc without a solid backing.  Yeah, the 360's secondary triggers do that as well, but they don't feel like you're going to break them every time you press them in.

One other thing, too: if Nintendo's truly switched over to using analog sticks, they'd better have click functionality considering how often I see games on other consoles use them for things like crouching or running.

AdrockMay 21, 2012

I believe BnM posted a rumor about the clicky analog stick/circle pad. I'm personally not a fan of them but it should be there for parity with the other consoles' controllers.

tendoboy1984May 22, 2012

I find it funny that many of these rumors come from NeoGaf, and lo and behold, there are a few Gaf members here. Coincidence?

0-WattAlex Wanschura, Contributing WriterMay 22, 2012

The Internet is full of overlap :P

and you have to feel a little sorry for the guy who posted that pic.  You know he's in for it considering this is a Nintendo-published game he was QA-testing AND was still an unreleased version of the controller.

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

CericMay 22, 2012

Quote from: NWR_Neal

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

Or really simple.  Something along the line of:

"First Rule of Wii U: You don't talk about Wii U without the express written consent of Nintendo.
Second Rule of Wii U: See First Rule

This NDA is binding until such time that Nintendo see fits to release you from this contract which may extend beyond the public announcement."

Ian SaneMay 22, 2012

A controller is a functional tool.  It isn't a game.  It isn't supposed to be fun.  It isn't a marketing tool.  It's supposed to be practical.  A good controller is a one where the user has precise control over the game they are playing.  So having both analog sticks on the top sure looks nice but "looks nice" means DICK.  The second you consider "looks nice" is a priority in controller design you have failed.  Above all else it has to work.  And it needs to work for the majority of games.  It's a broad functional tool.  If the design is too specific then it sucks as a controller.  The Gamcube controller was amazing for some games designed for it and sucked for everything else.  Therefore it sucks.  It was so comfortable in my hands but it was not designed to work for all games in a broad sense so by controller standards it sucks.  It's too bad because with a few tweaks it could have been great.

I never liked the dualshock but it was entirely because of ergonomics and that horrid split d-pad.  I find the Dualshock 3 is vastly improved.  It was the best controller I had ever used... until I got a CC Pro.  THAT is the best controller I've ever used.  It's ergonomic, practical, and works for pretty much every non-motion control game (or would if Nintendo, you know, supported it more).  The Dualshock design was solid, it's was just the wrong company working on it.  Once Nintendo used it, they did it right.  If you don't have a split d-pad, actually know what "ergonomics" means, don't use cheap plastic, don't have squishy buttons, and assign the buttons terms that human beings are actually familiar with like 'A' and 'B' instead of abstract shapes, you have a pretty amazing controller which would make a good standard.

I really hate the Playstation shapes.  I can't play God of War because of the QTEs.  Suddenly the game is throwing triangle and square at me.  I don't know what the fuck button that is!!  Seriously with any Playstation game that asks me to push a specific button I have to look down at the controller to figure out which one they mean.  When I play I get used to what button is shoot and jump and just handle the basic stuff like that but then once it tells me to push a specific button I do not instinctively just know.  Now for anything that uses letters, I do just know because people deal with letters all the time.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorMay 22, 2012

Quote from: NWR_Neal

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

Can't speak for a Wii U NDA (is it because I haven't seen one or I've signed one and can't disclose it?  dun dun dun... Okay, I haven't seen one), but having actually read and signed my first real NDA recently, I have to say, it probably isn't that fun of a read. ;)

The fun stuff is after you've signed it. :D

CericMay 22, 2012

Quote from: UncleBob

Quote from: NWR_Neal

Supposedly he got fired and might be getting sued.

Nintendo's Wii U NDAs must be a fun read...

Can't speak for a Wii U NDA (is it because I haven't seen one or I've signed one and can't disclose it?  dun dun dun... Okay, I haven't seen one), but having actually read and signed my first real NDA recently, I have to say, it probably isn't that fun of a read. ;)

The fun stuff is after you've signed it. :D

So... Since it wasn't an NDA.  What flavor was the Mystery Dew?

CericMay 22, 2012

Quote from: Ian

...
The Gamcube controller was amazing for some games designed for it and sucked for everything else.  Therefore it sucks.  It was so comfortable in my hands but it was not designed to work for all games in a broad sense so by controller standards it sucks.  It's too bad because with a few tweaks it could have been great.
...

I have to totally Disagree with you.  If I could use a Wavebird over a CCPro for MHTri I definetely would.  I like specific examples where the Wavebird as the control interface ruined a game. 

Ian SaneMay 22, 2012

Any game that requires a d-pad plays like complete shit on the Gamecube controller.  Ever played Capcom vs. SNK 2?  Any fighting game aside from SSB needs digital controls for movement and the Wavebird d-pad is too damn small to consistently execute fighting game moves.  The goofy button layout doesn't work well for that game either.

Another example was Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3 (remember when Tony Hawk games actually mattered?  Weird, huh?)  You use the d-pad or control stick to maintain balance when grinding.  The function is digital and thus works better with a d-pad, except that the Cube d-pad is so small you end up hitting diagonals the whole time and lose your balance.  The d-pad alone just disqualifies the Cube controller from "best ever".  The original prototype didn't even have a d-pad until third parties asked Nintendo to make one so Nintendo just threw the GBA d-pad on there.  Good controllers don't have mandatory elements begrudgingly thrown on at the last minute.  Nintendo wasn't going to put one on the controller entirely because THEY didn't feel they would use it.  That's the wrong approach.  It's too specialized.

And irony or ironies Nintendo then was going to launch the Wii with ONLY a d-pad until Retro suggested the idea of the nunchuk.

Nintendo's best controllers were on the NES and SNES (though they are outdated now of course).  Those controllers were practical with a broad design and the SNES controller builds on the NES one without removing any of the functionality.  Of course those were the last Nintendo systems to have decent third party support.  They came out at a time when Nintendo seemed to actually care about other developers making games on their systems and didn't design everything solely for their own purposes.  They switched to the "our way or the highway" approach on the N64 and have pretty much made Nintendo-only machines since.  The controls alone didn't cause that but the whole approach to design any hardware has been very self-serving and specialized ever since.  I suspect the cause is Gunpei Yokoi leaving.  He had major involvement in Nintendo's hardware.  Meanwhile Miyamoto made the N64 cartridge based entirely because he didn't want load times in his games and pretty much designed the controller entirely around Super Mario 64.  The NES, SNES and Game Boy were all made in the Yokoi-era and are all quite broad in their design.  Everything since the N64 has been more specialized.

AdrockMay 22, 2012

Quote from: Ian

So having both analog sticks on the top sure looks nice but "looks nice" means DICK.

Are you suggesting that the analog sticks on top won't work? I feel like it makes more sense for the right analog stick to be above the face buttons. Games that use the right analog stick heavily typically do so primarily with the shoulder buttons. How often does Nintendo put form before function? This is the same Nintendo that said, "Fuck the diamond layout we invented. Kidney shaped buttons for you."

I actually had to sign a Nintendo NDA so we could get an early copy of Dillon's Rolling Western for review when it was revealed at Nintendo Direct.

It was threatening, but I doubt it was as interesting as the Wii U NDAs. I did have to take my 3DS offline until the game was revealed, though.

Ian SaneMay 22, 2012

Quote from: Adrock

How often does Nintendo put form before function?

The Wii controller was designed, not because it was the most practical approach, not because it was the most precise control method, not because it was the best way to control games, but entirely because they wanted non-gamers to not be confused so they went with motion control and TV remote appearance.  The Wii control was designed as a marketing tool first, videogame controller second.  I think it is totally believable that Nintendo would compromise the Wii U controller because they felt that symmetrical analog sticks would be more attractive.  Last gen, Nintendo lost all credibility with controllers.  There were more Nintendo games with wonky imprecise controls on the Wii then their entire history prior to that.

I used to see Nintendo as they most reliable company for have responsive controls.  Because of the Wii and DS my opinion of them has completely flip-flopped and they're now the company I associate the most with broken, unresponsive controls you have constantly to fight with.

Realistically the whole screen thing is a marketing tool in the first place.  They've had dual screens all through the DS life and haven't demonstrated it as anything more than a gimmick.  Now they introduce it to consoles and it will be different?  I doubt it.  The marketing team indicated that another gimmick would be needed to attract attention and that tablets are cool right now so go for that.  Again, the controller is designed as a marketing tool first.  Thus I can see all sorts of questionable design ideas being put into it.

I will assume the worst until those that give it a good whirl at E3 say otherwise.  Nintendo has to re-earn every little piece of trust I have in them.

I don't get how you can argue the DS layout hasn't demonstrated itself as anything more than a gimmick. Sure, there are games that misuse touch controls, but there are tons of games that work better because of that layout.

AdrockMay 22, 2012

Quote from: Ian

The Wii control was designed as a marketing tool first, videogame controller second.

How did you come to that conclusion? That's not... Nintendo started with motion controls then put a shell around it. There is no Wii Remote with the accelerometer and optic sensor. It always began as an input device for videogames.

Quote:

I think it is totally believable that Nintendo would compromise the Wii U controller because they felt that symmetrical analog sticks would be more attractive.

That must be why they put 2 circle pads on 3DS. For symmetry.

Mop it upMay 22, 2012

I've seen several people state that the GameCube controller sucked for certain types of games, not just on this board, but other places too. What types of games are we talking about? I, personally, have never had an issue playing any game on the GameCube using its controller.

AdrockMay 22, 2012

I think they're specifically referring to fighting games, namely Capcom vs. SNK 2 and possibly Soul Calibur II.

broodwarsMay 22, 2012

I personally started to lose faith in Nintendo's dedication to excellent controls as soon as they started mapping simple button presses to waggle.  I lost that faith altogether when Nintendo forced Retro studios to implement mandatory waggle into DKCR's pixel-perfect platforming for the sheer purpose of having commercials featuring guys in horrible gorilla costumes shaking the Wiimote.  Allowing Sakamoto free reign to force stiff and increasingly painful NES-style control on the player in Metroid Other M didn't help, either.  Hell, letting Sakamoto anywhere near that project didn't help in general.

Ian SaneMay 22, 2012

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

I don't get how you can argue the DS layout hasn't demonstrated itself as anything more than a gimmick. Sure, there are games that misuse touch controls, but there are tons of games that work better because of that layout.

The DS didn't get really good until developers essentially pretended the touch screen didn't exist and just made "normal" games.  Then Nintendo suddenly decided this was no good and shoe-horned horrible broken controls into Zelda to "prove" the concept.  It isn't like there are DS games that make you say "man, I can't imagine what videogames would be like without a second screen."  The best example of a new feature being immediately proven is the analog stick.  Super Mario 64 comes out and we're wondering how we could ever do controls in a 3D game with anything but.  Practically every N64 that came out after used the stick and with Nintendo's games you couldn't imagine them without it.  It was just instantly the new standard.

Nintendo had the GC/GBA connectivity and it never really went anywhere.  You could tell from the games they did make that they had to struggle to think of any ideas for it.  They were all gung-ho about a Pac-Man game that was such a minor title they gave it away for FREE.  You don't keep such a non-marketable idea around unless you're short on ideas.  They came up with the concept and assumed it would inspire them and it sure as hell didn't.  Then they did a similar idea with the DS and the first year or so of the DS was like some sick joke.  Nearly every game was some forced half-baked nonsense.

Now they're bringing it back to consoles.  If this concept was so inspiring then the ideas would be coming out like a faucet.  They didn't on the Cube and they didn't on the DS so WHY NOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT?  It's the same damn thing they have struggled to come up with ideas for, to the point that they made Zelda play like shit to try to force it.  Compare to the analog stick or the SNES L&R buttons.  The ideas just came almost effortlessly for those controller innovations.

What we're going to get is status screens and maps on the tablet.  We're going to have games that use the normal controls for 90% of it and then have some arbitrary point where you have to touch the screen.  We'll get some forced usage that makes some games frustrating to play.  Don't expect anything beyond what we got on the DS.  If they had brilliant Mario 64 calibre ideas they would have used them ten years ago!  They didn't because these ideas don't exist, or at the very least Nintendo can't think of them.  They're not going to go from forced nonsense like Phantom Hourglass to sublime dual screen mastery just because this is now on a console.

AdrockMay 23, 2012

The World Ends With You begs to differ.

When developers create games specifically with the touch screen in mind, they can make truly great things. Same with motion controls. They have to commit to it though. And once again, "not for Ian" doesn't mean "bad."

Also, how are you not getting the idea behind using the controller as the main screen? When your girlfriend wants to watch Keeping Up With The Kardashians, you can let play Mario instead.

It's like me and Adrock are long lost twins, as we always seem to be agreeing with each other. Yes, there are a lot of games that do touch controls well. The key is not to force the issue.

I completely agree with you, Ian and broodwars, that the forced waggle that a lot of Wii games used was an awful design choice. A lot of that, though, was forced upon them by the controller they had to work with (although it doesn't excuse the lack of a Classic Controller option in some of those games).

On a lot of different levels, the Wii's main problem was a lack of foresight on Nintendo's part. In terms of online play, storage, hardware design and controls, Nintendo made decisions early on that ended up severely limiting what the system could do. Before NinSage or whomever criticizes me for being anti-Nintendo, I should say that despite all that the Wii is probably my favorite Nintendo console ever, but that doesn't change the fact that it could have been so much more.

That's why it's comforting to see that Nintendo seems to be learning from their mistakes. Most of what they've done and said so far with the 3DS and Wii U indicates that they've taken the criticism to heart, and are trying to fix those things. The Wii U controller can do a whole lot of different things, giving developers, both Nintendo's own and those of third parties, options. The hardware seems to be a lot better thought out this time around, and everything Nintendo's saying gives me confidence that they really have learned.

I can't wait to get my hands on the thing in two weeks.

OblivionMay 23, 2012

You going to E3? Jealous.

CaterkillerMatthew Osborne, Contributing WriterMay 23, 2012

Quote from: Ian

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

I don't get how you can argue the DS layout hasn't demonstrated itself as anything more than a gimmick. Sure, there are games that misuse touch controls, but there are tons of games that work better because of that layout.

The DS didn't get really good until developers essentially pretended the touch screen didn't exist and just made "normal" games.  Then Nintendo suddenly decided this was no good and shoe-horned horrible broken controls into Zelda to "prove" the concept.  It isn't like there are DS games that make you say "man, I can't imagine what videogames would be like without a second screen."  The best example of a new feature being immediately proven is the analog stick.  Super Mario 64 comes out and we're wondering how we could ever do controls in a 3D game with anything but.  Practically every N64 that came out after used the stick and with Nintendo's games you couldn't imagine them without it.  It was just instantly the new standard.

Nintendo had the GC/GBA connectivity and it never really went anywhere.  You could tell from the games they did make that they had to struggle to think of any ideas for it.  They were all gung-ho about a Pac-Man game that was such a minor title they gave it away for FREE.  You don't keep such a non-marketable idea around unless you're short on ideas.  They came up with the concept and assumed it would inspire them and it sure as hell didn't.  Then they did a similar idea with the DS and the first year or so of the DS was like some sick joke.  Nearly every game was some forced half-baked nonsense.

Now they're bringing it back to consoles.  If this concept was so inspiring then the ideas would be coming out like a faucet.  They didn't on the Cube and they didn't on the DS so WHY NOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT?  It's the same damn thing they have struggled to come up with ideas for, to the point that they made Zelda play like **** to try to force it.  Compare to the analog stick or the SNES L&R buttons.  The ideas just came almost effortlessly for those controller innovations.

What we're going to get is status screens and maps on the tablet.  We're going to have games that use the normal controls for 90% of it and then have some arbitrary point where you have to touch the screen.  We'll get some forced usage that makes some games frustrating to play.  Don't expect anything beyond what we got on the DS.  If they had brilliant Mario 64 calibre ideas they would have used them ten years ago!  They didn't because these ideas don't exist, or at the very least Nintendo can't think of them.  They're not going to go from forced nonsense like Phantom Hourglass to sublime dual screen mastery just because this is now on a console.

Ok what is your ideal controller then? What in the world should developers do to improve controllers? More buttons, more sticks? seriously what? Or are we just at perfection at this point?

If developers finally realized the second screen doesn't have to have touch controls for every game, why would it be a problem now? Just being able to look at maps and switch items on the fly without slowing the pace of the game is huge for me. Tell me how much you enjoyed taking on and off the Iron Boots in OoT? You like Xenoblade don't you? How much did you enjoy bringing up a map or new screen to check something minor? If I could still walk and explore while just checking that stuff it would make things so much convenient. That is just as much a natural progression as the analog stick.

And no, after getting used to Kid Icarus, I learned how to relax my hands(No different than destroying my thumb on the control stick during SF64 and Mario Party when I was younger), I can play without the stand, and understand totally why duel analog would not work for this game. Uprising is an Epic game that took me about 5 levels to really get into, but after that I got it. Maybe you don't see cause you refuse to play the game, but with a little time the control scheme is perfect.

When the Analog stick and 3D games became the norm, I had a heck of a time walking narrow paths, walking slowly or judging distances. So jumping into that wasn't just naturally intuitive for everyone, it's the reason why 3D Mario sales so much lower than 2D Mario.  Playing Kid Icarus is like that. One has to just give it a chance and i'm glad people are from the looks of it's sales.


Granted not every game with a touch screen is great. I enjoyed Spirit Tracks for a while before I got bored, but I do understand fighting the controls with that game. Even with Nintendo the new technology caused a knee jerk reaction, lately things have just gotten better and better, I don't see why the trend wouldn't just continue.

tendoboy1984May 24, 2012

Quote from: Caterkiller

Ok what is your ideal controller then? What in the world should developers do to improve controllers? More buttons, more sticks? seriously what? Or are we just at perfection at this point?

If developers finally realized the second screen doesn't have to have touch controls for every game, why would it be a problem now? Just being able to look at maps and switch items on the fly without slowing the pace of the game is huge for me. Tell me how much you enjoyed taking on and off the Iron Boots in OoT? You like Xenoblade don't you? How much did you enjoy bringing up a map or new screen to check something minor? If I could still walk and explore while just checking that stuff it would make things so much convenient. That is just as much a natural progression as the analog stick.

And no, after getting used to Kid Icarus, I learned how to relax my hands(No different than destroying my thumb on the control stick during SF64 and Mario Party when I was younger), I can play without the stand, and understand totally why duel analog would not work for this game. Uprising is an Epic game that took me about 5 levels to really get into, but after that I got it. Maybe you don't see cause you refuse to play the game, but with a little time the control scheme is perfect.

When the Analog stick and 3D games became the norm, I had a heck of a time walking narrow paths, walking slowly or judging distances. So jumping into that wasn't just naturally intuitive for everyone, it's the reason why 3D Mario sales so much lower than 2D Mario.  Playing Kid Icarus is like that. One has to just give it a chance and i'm glad people are from the looks of it's sales.


Granted not every game with a touch screen is great. I enjoyed Spirit Tracks for a while before I got bored, but I do understand fighting the controls with that game. Even with Nintendo the new technology caused a knee jerk reaction, lately things have just gotten better and better, I don't see why the trend wouldn't just continue.

The main advantage I can see of having a second screen on the controller is the ability to instantly access content that would otherwise be used in a pause menu. And for a game like GTA, having the huge city map in the palm of your hands would be brilliant.

CericMay 25, 2012

Think about real life and what you use a second screen for.  GPS immediately comes to mind.  Giving people options is akin to giving people more ways to shoot themselves in the foot.  How can you reallly mess up controls with 2 buttons and a d-pad?  On the flipside its really hard to simulate a lot of different experiences that way.

As for the next evolution.  Controllerss that start off with no buttons and lower and raise there button areas in patterns and shapes determined by the developers.  Giving the feel of the different buttons how they want it to feel.  Same with tactile senses like clicky - squishy.

Infinitys_EndMay 25, 2012

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

CericMay 25, 2012

Quote from: Infinitys_End

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

I've got one that does induction charging so I just sit them on the pad when I'm done and there ready to go.

tendoboy1984May 25, 2012

Quote from: Infinitys_End

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

Just use rechargeable AA batteries. That's what I use.

Chozo GhostMay 25, 2012

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: Infinitys_End

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

Just use rechargeable AA batteries. That's what I use.

How is swapping out rechargeable batteries any more convenient than swapping out regular batteries? Do you actually comprehend what he said?

tendoboy1984May 25, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Quote from: Infinitys_End

At least we won't have to keep swapping out the batteries in that damn thing.  Sometimes I tire of doing it with my Wiimotes. (all 3rd party Wiimote battery charger docks suck, btw)

Just use rechargeable AA batteries. That's what I use.

How is swapping out rechargeable batteries any more convenient than swapping out regular batteries? Do you actually comprehend what he said?

Because you just buy one set of rechargeable batteries instead of constantly buying regular batteries over and over again. Saves money that way.

AdrockMay 25, 2012

The problem wasn't the price; it was the inconvenience of having to switch out batteries which you still have to do if the batteries are rechargeable.

tendoboy1984May 25, 2012

Quote from: Adrock

The problem wasn't the price; it was the inconvenience of having to switch out batteries which you still have to do if the batteries are rechargeable.

Then maybe Nintendo should have made their own rechargeable battery packs, but Nyko beat them to the punch.

nickmitchMay 25, 2012

Nyko didn't beat Nintendo to the punch. Nintendo left the door open for them as a cost cutting measure.

Chozo GhostMay 26, 2012

Nintendo could have came out with their own battery pack as an optional accessory for an extra cost. Cutting costs doesn't explain why they didn't, because they could have made a profit off that.

Anyway, if you want to squeeze more life out of your Wiimote one thing you can do is disable the rumble and/or the speaker on it. If you don't mind doing without those things it really makes a huge difference in how long the batteries will last.

tendoboy1984May 26, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

Nintendo could have came out with their own battery pack as an optional accessory for an extra cost. Cutting costs doesn't explain why they didn't, because they could have made a profit off that.

Anyway, if you want to squeeze more life out of your Wiimote one thing you can do is disable the rumble and/or the speaker on it. If you don't mind doing without those things it really makes a huge difference in how long the batteries will last.

I never use the speaker because I can't stand the terrible sound quality. Rumble is essential for some games.

nickmitchMay 26, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

Nintendo could have came out with their own battery pack as an optional accessory for an extra cost. Cutting costs doesn't explain why they didn't, because they could have made a profit off that.

Anyway, if you want to squeeze more life out of your Wiimote one thing you can do is disable the rumble and/or the speaker on it. If you don't mind doing without those things it really makes a huge difference in how long the batteries will last.

True. I guess I was thinking of why Nintendo didn't just include it to begin with. I think Nintendo does that solely to keep those companies alive.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorMay 26, 2012

Very happy with my Energizer induction charger. :D

broodwarsMay 26, 2012

Well, I've found the ultimate way to avoid having battery issue with my Wiimote:  I just don't play Wii games.  I haven't had to change my Wiimote's batteries in years.  ;)

In all seriousness, I don't think I've ever seen a controller drain batteries as quickly as the Wiimote does, especially with the Motion+ attached.  I hope that with the Wii U Nintendo would allow the tablet or Wiimote to charge by cable even if the system is off.  It's kind of annoying that my PS3 has to be on for my Dualshocks or Move controllers to charge.

AdrockMay 26, 2012

I recall reading the tablet controller has a wall charger. I hope I didn't just imagine that because I want it to be true. I'm not a fan of having to keep the PS3 to charge the Dualshock 3 either. It's usually not a big deal because I'll charge it while watching Netflix or something but it's mildly inconvenient and I'm not buying a charge stand.

BlackNMild2k1May 26, 2012

The uMote has a charging stand/dock if the patents are to be believed.

So you should be able to dock your uMote (on the night stand) and charge it while you watch Netflix (in bed).

That wouldn't be surprising after the charging stand they included with the 3DS. I love that thing; it's so simple and has to be pretty cheap to build, but it's a really nice touch and comes in handy.

tendoboy1984May 26, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

It's kind of annoying that my PS3 has to be on for my Dualshocks or Move controllers to charge.

Oh most definitely. Does the Xbox 360 need to be on to charge it's controllers?

AdrockMay 26, 2012

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

The uMote has a charging stand/dock if the patents are to be believed.

I thought it had an AC plug. I imagined it would work like the 3DS where you can plug into the unit or charge stand.

Quote from: tendoboy1984

Does the Xbox 360 need to be on to charge it's controllers?

No. The Xbox 360 controller uses regular batteries but Microsoft sells 1st party rechargeable battery packs separately that charges on an included stand/dock thing. You can't charge and play at the same time if I remember correctly.

CericMay 26, 2012

PS3 controllers will charge with any USB port.  So you can use a computer, phone wall charger, anything that takes a usb to provide power to charge something so you have options.  I actually use my Wii to charge them often.

AdrockMay 26, 2012

Those devices still need to be on in order to charge via USB. And doesn't the voltage on wall chargers need to match to avoid damaging the battery?

Chozo GhostMay 26, 2012

I don't see what the big deal is with having controllers be wired to the system. Maybe some people sit a huge distance away from their system when they play, but for me a 10ft cable is more than adequate and more importantly it never requires charging.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorMay 26, 2012

I like no cables - no worries about dogs or people tripping over them and ripping your console off the shelf and resetting your game that you're at the very last stage and there's no save because it's a frickin' NES and there's no save feature and your sister is stupid for tripping over the cable in the first place.

I have some bad memories associated with controller cables.

broodwarsMay 26, 2012

Quote from: Chozo

I don't see what the big deal is with having controllers be wired to the system. Maybe some people sit a huge distance away from their system when they play, but for me a 10ft cable is more than adequate and more importantly it never requires charging.

Yeah, I bought a PS3 extended charging cable for that very purpose (and by "bought" I mean I used a GameStop Rewards coupon to get one for free).  I never want to worry about whether my controller is charged, and when I'm done gaming I want to be able to just turn the system off.

Chozo GhostMay 26, 2012

Quote from: UncleBob

I like no cables - no worries about dogs or people tripping over them and ripping your console off the shelf and resetting your game that you're at the very last stage and there's no save because it's a frickin' NES and there's no save feature and your sister is stupid for tripping over the cable in the first place.

I have some bad memories associated with controller cables.

Yeah, as I recall the NES cords fit very securely into their ports on the console, so if the cord was tugged it would tend to pull the whole console with it.

But nowadays with everything using USB I'm not sure if it would be a problem anymore. USB ports tend to be pretty "loose" so I assume if someone tripped or tugged on the cord it would just pull it out of the port instead of pulling the whole entire console with it.

The original Xbox controller and the corded 360 controller feature little breakaway segments in the cable to prevent that from happening.

Mop it upMay 26, 2012

I also prefer wireless controllers, cords are nothing but a mess and an accident waiting to happen. Though if they had a 10ft charging cable, then people would have the option to use them with a cord if they don't want to have to worry about batteries.

I like that the Wiimote uses AA, it means that I don't have to wait for the batteries to charge and can swap out my own whilst another pair is charging. It also means I don't have to hunt down a specialised battery when the rechargeables inevitably go dead. Using a Classic Controller also makes the batteries last at least twice as long.

One of the problems with the Wii Remote's battery life is that the controller activates on any button press. That means if you pack it in a bag or somewhere where the buttons are easily pressed, it drains the battery.

Mop it upMay 26, 2012

That never bothered me since it's easy to remove the batteries and store them somewhere else. I guess the response to that is "But I shouldn't have to since so and so controller doesn't work like that," which is fair, I'm just saying I don't personally care.

tendoboy1984May 26, 2012

Quote from: Adrock

You can't charge and play at the same time if I remember correctly.

Wow that sucks. You don't have to worry about that with the PS3, the controller charges anytime the console is on.

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