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Funeral Proceedings for a Console

by James Jones - December 5, 2009, 6:18 pm EST
Total comments: 64

To be clear, when we spoke with Mr. Kohler, the Xbox still ran like a champ. In fact, after we finished our "Special Edition" Monday recording I proceeded to play it. It was Tuesday that things began to turn sideways.

I was playing The Last Remnant, somewhere around hour five-hundred thirty-three of that game, when I noticed some strange graphical glitches. Much of the action was covered in small black squares. Graphical glitches being nothing new for this title, I assumed Square Enix's struggles with Unreal Engine 3 had found a new way to manifest itself.

Of course, it hadn't. I saved, having just claimed a new remnant (The Dead-Heart), I had already saved. I just turned the system off and started it back on. Everything seemed okay, so I continued to my target, a confrontation with forces of "The Conquer."

The graphics began to struggle again, so I turned it off, after getting a taste for the joy I was about to experience. It would have to hold me over until I got home from work the next day.

Of course, I spent at least a small amount of time that day thinking about how "awesome this will be."

I came home.

Turned on the console.

E74.

It's a strange feeling. When I bought my 360 I knew all about the hardware failures, yet I never felt that there was any risk it could happen to me. It left me feeling powerless.

I went through the stages of grief.

1. On - Off - On - Off. Certainly, this thing would work long enough that I could complete this battle.

2. I grumbled and groaned that Microsoft cannot create a consistently reliable piece of hardware. I wanted all these years to get a dependable console. "They must be some kind of incompetents!"

3. "Come on, you can run! I know you can! Just let me play the rest of the game, and I'll send you off for some much-needed R&R!"

4. I began to think there was no way I was going to ever complete this damn game. All that time lost. Wasted. I was beside myself.

5. I went and dug up some packing material, a cardboard box from 1999 for an industrial Panasonic VCR. As to why I had such a box I have no answer.

Of course, I screwed up the packing job, I neglected to put my address and the repair number on the exterior of the box, as Microsoft's handy packing chart extols you to do. They have the serial number and my address on the repair, if they can't connect the dots then there really is no helping them.

It landed in the mail Friday. UPS Stores are predictably a bit chaotic at this time of year, but it wasn't particularly harrowing.

If you've bared with me through this narrative, thank you. I'm sure it's even more boring then when you listen to me tell these stories on RFN (if you don't listen, please do!).

Really, the story isn't the important bits here. I did some math as to how "deep" I am into the 360, from a monetary standpoint. It's about $470.00 including the console. Once again, not really the point.

The point is a bit more technical. The 360's failure is a direct result of the power the system wields. I'll spare you the physics, but as a microprocessor becomes more complicated, more powerful, and more sophisticated it takes more electricity to run. That creates more heat.

Heat is bad for electronics.

In the case of my poor 360, it was lethal.

Having worked myself through school doing various technical support jobs, I've seen more than a few laptops cook themselves. That was something it was always unpleasant to tell a client.

Of course, as technology advances, a processor of the same power becomes more efficient. It runs cooler. Computers don't die.

In the future, consoles are going to become more powerful. At the moment, it seems almost a fools errand to try to put more power into home consoles. Games look stunning, and every year games that look even more stunning are released. However, it's going to happen.

Progress.

I'd never had a console fail before. Nintendo makes fairly robust hardware, and I have always been primarily a Nintendo owner. Don't be surprised if system failures are part of the console future. The more you pack in the box, the greater the risk.

I do hope that all future consoles look at the example of the Xbox 360. Robustness is an underrated element of console design.

Let's not kid ourselves, even after the life-cycle of a console you still expect it to work. What good is your collection of games if you have no machine to play them on?

Let's just say that I expect to see a hole in my entertainment center again, sometime in the future.

Just to be clear, I'm not writing this as a dig at the Xbox 360. It is a good console with a solid library. It just is fragile.

Talkback

BwrJim!December 06, 2009

AHh, i too was impervious to such things as system failures.  I knew about them, but I baby my equipment.  Heck my Turbo Duo is still working..  Last year, this time I got a game called Gears of War 2.  Now I couldn't play it for some reason or another and it wasnt until my birthday on January 4th did I finally get to play.  Popped it in.  Made it to about 2 levels in, then the game froze.    Not a problem A simple reboot, games freeze all the time.  SO I started the 2nd level over and at the same spot where some big bug creature thing comes out at the convoy from a hole and it froze again.  Darn it, must be a bad copy.. oh well one more time..

almost to the hole in the ground, starts to lock..  dink dink... dink.. three rings of red light...

BranDonk KongDecember 06, 2009

Technically it's not the heat killing the system, it's the breaking of the lead-free solder that kills the system. The system does get pretty hot, but not nearly hot enough to actually cause any damage from the heat (aside from rare cases where the temperature sensor has been known to break, or the fans die). The motherboard expands when the system is hot (though not too hot by any means), and the piss-poor manner in which the system is held to the metal chassis causes the surrounding area to stay pretty much locked down, not allowing the whole board to expand, then when the system cools down, the solder joints (or at least one of them) breaks, and you either get the 3 red lights, with typically error 0102, 0103, 0020, or you get E74. At least it's under warranty, though. Hopefully you get a Jasper (or at least Opus) system back, they're much sturdier.

Yeah, it's a little silly to just blame this on physics.  Computers can get much hotter and more complex and they don't have these failure rates.  It's poor engineering design and/or poor manufacturing.  That goes for the laptops too.  Certainly, these types of problems wouldn't happen without machines using that much power, but it's not a direct causation (like say, metal whiskers)... it's actually a pretty stupid problem compared to the complexity and physics of the system.

ShyGuyDecember 06, 2009

This is why the ARM processors are the way of the future.

MorariDecember 06, 2009

This is why I own three Dreamcasts. Ironically enough, I've never actually had any issues with any of them.

that Baby guyDecember 06, 2009

Bro-in-law is on his third Xbox.  He bought one 2006, one mid 2008, and one last month.  Hopefully it lasts longer, and he learns how to handle warranty stuffs.

Mop it upDecember 06, 2009

The same thing happened to my brother. He was so sad because he had just gotten Mass Effect. Then when he finally got it back... his television gave out! Also due to too much heat being generated...

It's amazing how the Nintendo 64 could survive without cooling fans. That thing gets HOT.

KDR_11kDecember 06, 2009

Chips won't overheat (cause data errors) until above 70°C I think, the temperature for actual damage is higher and even an overheating PC won't usually end up damaged, just produce errors and hang. To get damage you need to have a serious cooling failure (everything clogged with dust or cooler failing to work). The 360 is just a case of rushed design and overpushing just to get a graphical advance when the tech advancement wasn't big enough yet. Also note that the Wii was built to use all those tech advances to run cooler and lower power.

Yeah, it depends on the chip.  My laptop isn't even set to turn off until the CPU hits 100°C.

The heat is still the root of the issue.  Poor management of heat causes the failure. 

Heat, of course, is not the only reason consoles of the future will fail.  They will fail because they're more complicated.

StratosDecember 06, 2009

My friend knows a guy who made bank fixing half of those soldering errors. Since it was a simple soldering issue he would undercut Microsoft's repair charges and word got around he was the go-to guy for repairs.

KDR_11kDecember 06, 2009

Quote from: Crimm

The heat is still the root of the issue.  Poor management of heat causes the failure. 

Heat, of course, is not the only reason consoles of the future will fail.  They will fail because they're more complicated.

But computers don't fail like that even when they're made of cutting edge components. This is a serious engineering failure, not just the result of technology getting better.

Exactly.  It's Microsoft's garbage design of the 360's motherboard that causes the GPU to cook itself.  This doesn't have anything to do with the technology getting better, aside from the fact that the level of heat management in the system needs to be ratcheted up accordingly.

Microsoft didn't do that, so there you go.

kraken613December 06, 2009

It all had to due with Microsoft at its core is a software company not a hardware company. There are much more powerful devices that don't have issues. Like Lindy said it all has to due with Microsoft's shitty hardware design.

The fact that Microsoft is primarily a software company is irrelevant.  The specific problem is simple in comparison to the complexity of the system.  The fact that Microsoft wants to keep their costs low is likely the big problem, but it backfired.

King of TwitchDecember 06, 2009

How feasible would it be for the next consoles to have a replaceable lint filter? Might get annoying having to change it, but it would be worth it.

The one thing that will make future consoles a bit more reliable is their likely switch to solid-state memory.  No more failing hard drives.

Mop it upDecember 06, 2009

And hopefully a switch back to cartridges as well. They've always had more benefits than discs, the only reason for the switch was prices but those are dropping all the time so hopefully it will reach a point where it isn't a factor.

D_AverageDecember 06, 2009

If you buy a 360 console at somewhere like Best Buy, do they offer the 3 year warranty for it?  And if so, does it cover the red ring and E74?

Quote from: Mop_it_up

And hopefully a switch back to cartridges as well. They've always had more benefits than discs, the only reason for the switch was prices but those are dropping all the time so hopefully it will reach a point where it isn't a factor.

Yeah, no.  There will be downloads, and if they do decide to distribute through silicon, it will probably be through SD card.

Mop it upDecember 07, 2009

That's a pretty scary future. Nintendo has expressed distaste for downloads so hopefully they choose cartridges.

BlackNMild2k1December 07, 2009

Nintendo has also showed distaste for disc based media too and look where that has gotten us...

Mop it upDecember 07, 2009

Most of that was due to piracy and I'd think it would be easier to control that with physical media than download-only.

StratosDecember 07, 2009

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Nintendo has also showed distaste for disc based media too and look where that has gotten us...

A disk based system with almost no load times as opposed to the crappy loading screen wait of the PS1?

BlackNMild2k1December 07, 2009

Quote from: Stratos

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Nintendo has also showed distaste for disc based media too and look where that has gotten us...

A disk based system with almost no load times as opposed to the crappy loading screen wait of the PS1?

But a Disc based system it is.

I'm sure a DD system will happen one day, but probably not within the near future. Broadband connection would have to be absolutely everywhere otherwise they are shutting out potential customers. So even though it may happen one day, I wouldn't expect it until at least after the next 2 generations.

Quote from: Mop_it_up

That's a pretty scary future. Nintendo has expressed distaste for downloads so hopefully they choose cartridges.

Nintendo had in-store writeable disks in Japan for the Famicom, in-store writeable ROM cartridges for the Super Famicom and Game Boy, satellite downloads, N64-equivalent in-store and downloadable writeable ROM cartridges and internet downloads in China, and a limited set of downloadable to SD card content for DS in Japan.  Their latest two systems have SD card slots and support downloads.  They have a lot of experience with this, it makes more sense cost-wise, and consumers are now more used to it, so it's an obvious direction to take.  They've been consistently moving towards standardized interfaces (e.g. SD, USB, Bluetooth) over their proprietary connections.  It may not happen next gen, but maybe the one after that.

Mop it upDecember 07, 2009

Looks like I may be quitting gaming soon.

vuduDecember 07, 2009

Why?  Are they releasing Aero the Acrobat on VC?  :@

Now, optical media could still have a future if holographic storage takes off.  Nintendo does have a lot of investment in a company that it working on such a product, but I don't know what state it will be in by the time the next console launches... silicon could be more sensible.  Digital distribution is getting bigger by the day.  But for those not using that yet, I've already seen an increase in retailers selling movies, music, and software on USB sticks and SD cards.  And then there's Redbox and their plan to start renting games.  I could see these boxes converted into download stations in the future.

NinGurl69 *hugglesDecember 07, 2009

But I can't download plastic guitars and skateboards that way.

BlackNMild2k1December 07, 2009

Quote from: MegaByte

Now, optical media could still have a future if holographic storage takes off.  Nintendo does have a lot of investment in a company that it working on such a product, but I don't know what state it will be in by the time the next console launches... silicon could be more sensible.  Digital distribution is getting bigger by the day.  But for those not using that yet, I've already seen an increase in retailers selling movies, music, and software on USB sticks and SD cards.  And then there's Redbox and their plan to start renting games.  I could see these boxes converted into download stations in the future.

That is probably the next step in digital distribution. Retailers with disc pressers and manual printers. then the employees assembles the game and you come back in 20 minutes to pick it up.

They can't up and just abandon point of purchase sales as many retailers wouldn't go along with that(and see Pro's point above) and probably refuse to sell the systems. They are gonna have to ease everyone into it, and I could see some sort of retail download station that either use disc or flash media of some sort, or some sort of digital press so that a store always has a copy of the game and if you come back in 30 minutes, they will have it ready to go for you.

Ian SaneDecember 07, 2009

I think physical media is going to stick around for a bit because digital downloads are a very new idea and there is a large segment of the videogame market that doesn't trust them.  I personally am concerned that without a physical copy to own that I have less rights as a consumer.  If my DVD player breaks it doesn't destroy all my DVDs with it.  No company can decide to just bork my old games remotely because they feel my "licence" to use those games is up.  With physical media an out-of-print also can still be found in the user marketplace.  There is no such thing as a used item if it's a digital download.

I'm not a crazy kook that's alone in this idealogy.  This is a common complaint about digital downloads.  I think a big part of it is I didn't grow up with the internet.  It was something that was introduced to the masses when I was in high school and I personally didn't start using it on a regular basis until I was in college.  Meanwhile there are kids graduating high school right now who have never lived without the internet.  Though there is only a ten year age difference it's like a huge generation gap.  When I was a kid it was exceptional to have a computer, a cell phone was a huge luxury item and MP3 players didn't exist at all.  "Download" was probably not even a word.

If you have observed your grandparents or parents you've probably noticed that people tend to not like trying out new things as they get older.  Ideally for something to truly be accepted the older generation that instinctively hates it has to die off first.  Rock n roll used to be this super evil rebel music.  These days it's practically adult contemporary as people who grew up with rock music are in their 60's.  The old geezers who thought Elvis Presley played the Devil's music are all either dead or close to it.  And they all ceased being a part of any sort of major target demographic long ago.  Their kids are now old enough that the market doesn't target them.  Videogame are a common target of controversy.  That's because they're still so new.  The generation that never knew them still has clout.

Well a great deal of people under 40 are used to buying physical media and probably would not be so quick to embrace a completely digitial download-only model.  Keep in mind that Nintendo attracted a whole bunch of older people with the Wii and DS.  You think those people will stick around to use a download-only model?  Digital downloads are just too new to completely take over.  They have to wait until the target age demographic is such that everybody has known about the internet and downloading their whole life and thus have no attachment to physical media.  Well I'm in the demographic of geezers that have an attachment to physical media and I'm not even 30 yet.  So until another 30-35 years or so when I'm of an age group that videogame companies no longer want to attract the business of, physical media is going to stick around.  At the very least there is no way that they're just going to switch to a download-only model overnight.

CDs are dying fast and digital sales are ever increasing.  Movie rental places are dying... this was mostly thanks to Netflix, but Netflix is also pursuing digital distribution.  And speaking of demographics, those who grew up after the internet became widespread are approaching purchasing age.  A great number of older people are on Facebook now, and a lot of them play online games... casual games, or cell phone games.  Also note that many of those who bought a Wii don't even really understand that the Wii can play other games than Wii Sports.  In this case, building a distribution system right into the interface would actually work out better.  If we can extrapolate from this, the transition may happen sooner than you think... 10 years, or less since technology is accelerating:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/08/01/opinion/musicforweb2.gif(source: NY Times)

For better or worse.


I don't expect Nintendo to be first-mover though.  They've been too conservative on the media front.

BlackNMild2k1December 08, 2009

& I haven't used Steam very much (only 1 purchase), but if anyone can make buying games online as simplified and almost forgettable to do like shopping on Amazon.com, then DD will do just fine.

I've bought so many things on amazon.com lately that I don't even remember doing it sometimes. It's just so easy to do that you just set click it and forget it.

Ian SaneDecember 08, 2009

I certainly think digital download will be successful and embraced BUT it's too early to switch to just that overnight.  I think it has to be an option at first that co-exists with physical media.  The PSP Go style download-only model is not going to fly.

I'd also like to note that when I download a demo from PSN it often takes like an hour or even a couple of hours.  And this is just for a DEMO, not a full-size game that's several gigs.  Yeah everyone likes downloading songs because they're small so it takes no time.  But movies and videogames are huge and in the amount of time it takes to download well, fuck, I might as well just drive to the store.  And what if something goes wrong during the download?  Super, now I have to try again and wait another four hours.  These days we're all into HD and all that so everything is bigger.  And remember that right now only a fraction of the audience is downloading games.  If everyone HAS to do it there is going to be a whole shit load more traffic.  Imagine some big hyped up new game gets released and it's like 4 GB and on day one HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE are trying to download it at the same time.  I don't think that sort of issue is thought of very often because right now using Steam is more like a hip thing to do that the mainstream is unaware of.  Only a small fraction of the market is buying it that way.  You think "this is so easy and convenient, why doesn't everyone do it this way?"  Well if everyone did it this way it might not be so easy and convenient.  There are a lot of things to think about.  They can't just upload a bunch of huge files to a network and away we go.

BlackNMild2k1December 08, 2009

I know you aren't responding directly to my post, but that's related to another point I made above(top of the page) about broadband connections. We know it won't happen now and it won't happen soon as for 1 broadband speeds are no where near what they need to be to make this function smoothly if everyone is doing it and 2 broadband connections have not reached every corner to of the planet and no one wants to purposely shut out a potentially large section of customers that have absolutely no way to purchase your product.
That requires them to go with the options that they have or go with nothing at all. So if DD was to come about, it will be in baby steps and at first as a convenience option.

BranDonk KongDecember 08, 2009

Broadband speeds in the US aren't what they need to be. In Europe, my 15-22Mb connection is a joke, over here's it's a pretty big deal. The one thing that would absolutely *KILL* digital download as a main format for gaming, however, would be if all the ISPs start imposing caps on monthly bandwidth.

StratosDecember 08, 2009

Quote from: Brandogg

Broadband speeds in the US aren't what they need to be. In Europe, my 15-22Mb connection is a joke, over here's it's a pretty big deal. The one thing that would absolutely *KILL* digital download as a main format for gaming, however, would be if all the ISPs start imposing caps on monthly bandwidth.

A number of them already do. Comcast finally admitted last year to capping. Speed should not be something you pay for but the amount of data you are sending and receiving.

NinGurl69 *hugglesDecember 08, 2009

Quote from: Stratos

Quote from: Brandogg

Broadband speeds in the US aren't what they need to be. In Europe, my 15-22Mb connection is a joke, over here's it's a pretty big deal. The one thing that would absolutely *KILL* digital download as a main format for gaming, however, would be if all the ISPs start imposing caps on monthly bandwidth.

A number of them already do. Comcast finally admitted last year to capping. Speed should not be something you pay for but the amount of data you are sending and receiving.

But I would be undone!

Quote from: D_Average

If you buy a 360 console at somewhere like Best Buy, do they offer the 3 year warranty for it?  And if so, does it cover the red ring and E74?

Microsoft has extended the length of the warranty for those specific problems.  Mine was outside the one-year, but they offer two additional years for those problems.

BranDonk KongDecember 09, 2009

Caps are retarded. Does it actually cost the ISP anything for you to download something? Sure there's electricity involved, and fees and whatnot...but I can't see any other costs besides that.

D_AverageDecember 09, 2009

Quote from: Crimm

Quote from: D_Average

If you buy a 360 console at somewhere like Best Buy, do they offer the 3 year warranty for it?  And if so, does it cover the red ring and E74?

Microsoft has extended the length of the warranty for those specific problems.  Mine was outside the one-year, but they offer two additional years for those problems.

Good to hear.  Though it should be a simple process, I'm sure MS will pull all sorts of Ubisoft like moves in fixing your system.  Looking forward to hearing progress reports on the upcoming shows. 

vuduDecember 09, 2009

Crimm, I am very sorry for your loss.  Please let me know if you need someone to talk to; I'm here for you.

I made you a lasagna--bake it at 350 degrees for 30 minutes, remove the foil and continue baking for another 10 minutes; let cool for 15 minutes before serving.

NinGurl69 *hugglesDecember 09, 2009

Your lasagna is overheated.  You'll have to send it in for repair.  What's the warranty on that thing?

BlackNMild2k1December 09, 2009

Thats not a red ring of death, thats actually just some tomato sauce.

It arrived in Microsoft repair yesterday.  When UPS says "ground" they mean it.

1296 Miles, 20 hours and 19 minutes.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/zCrimm/xboxpath.png

NinGurl69 *hugglesDecember 10, 2009

If UPS made deliveries by strapping packages to Komodo Dragons, that'd be something.

ShyGuyDecember 11, 2009

Crimm lives in Texas?

vuduDecember 11, 2009

Quote from: ShyGuy

Crimm lives in Texas?

No, you start from A, not F!

ShyGuyDecember 12, 2009

Crimm lives in the capital of Virginia?

This is why I keep vudu around, to correct my mistaeks.

BranDonk KongDecember 12, 2009

Crimm you're never getting that shit back. Mine's been gone since November 30th, and has been in Microsoft's possesion since the 3rd. It's said "repair in progress" since that day...9 days ago. I wish they were at least honest with their repair updates on the website. It sure as Hell doesn't take 9 days to fix a console, especially when they're just going to send a refurb anyway. The return time on a Wii is what, 3 days, right?

vuduDecember 12, 2009

Quote from: ShyGuy

Crimm lives in the capital of Virginia?

It's in his profile!

D_AverageDecember 13, 2009

I think Justin Mcelroy from Joystiq lives in Virginia too.  You too must obviously know each other.  Tell him I said whats up!

I broke his nose.  We're not on speaking terms.

D_AverageDecember 13, 2009

ahhhh schnap!

ShyGuyDecember 13, 2009

Quote from: D_Average

ahhhh schnap!

That's what the cartilage in his nose did!

I do wish the repair statuses were more detailed.  It basically said "Repair in Progress" as soon as they got it.  I never saw it in the "Received" status.

I'd be happy if they waited to move it to repair in progress till someone was actually working on it.

BranDonk KongDecember 16, 2009

I'm finally getting my 360 back tomorrow. It took a while, but I could care less since I bought it off Craig's List for $30 (3 red lights). The morons must have not realized it was still under warranty.

ShyGuyDecember 16, 2009

Will Crimm get it back by Christmas? I got 500 Wii points that says he won't. Any takers?

D_AverageDecember 16, 2009

My money says Crimm will be able to swim in public pools before he gets that thing back.

ShyGuyDecember 16, 2009

Was James Jones banned from public pools?

BranDonk KongDecember 17, 2009

If you actually shipped it out on the 5th (date of the post), then yes, you'll get it back before Christmas. Depending how far away from the distribution center, and if they send a refurb or actually do a repair changes the time frame a bit, but as long as it was sent out by that date, you should get it back soon. I'd say you'll get it by Tuesday at the latest. UPS tends to rush orders shipping before Christmas, too.

D_AverageDecember 17, 2009

Quote from: ShyGuy

Was James Jones banned from public pools?

Possibly. But I was implying memorial day. I should have specified outdoor pools.

Quote from: D_Average

I think Justin Mcelroy from Joystiq lives in Virginia too.  You too must obviously know each other.  Tell him I said whats up!

That dude cracks me up.

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