NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

F*ck.

What makes this even worse is that they probably had the dojo updates scheduled based on the earlier date, so they are probably even going to run out of those.

"What's wrong Obi-Wan?"

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of fan boy voices suddenly cried out in terror. I fear something terrible has happened."

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Originally posted by: Pale


What makes this even worse is that they probably had the dojo updates scheduled based on the earlier date, so they are probably even going to run out of those.

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This is non-news. We pretty much knew this was coming when they announced the Japanese release date got pushed back yesterday.

From reports, the developers needs more time. Also might be they are including more options. I bet online stuff.

I am cry

The delay is to include new collectible items- stuffed animal gallery and temporary tatoo gallery.

Meh, it's not the end of the world. I am glad that they recognize that they need a little more time to get the job done. I'm sure the Dojo updates will continue, the game is freaking massive. This delay pretty much means a more solid game, and more time for me to enjoy the other titles being released around the same time (Mario Galaxy, Mass Effect). By the time I finish those up, Smash will be out and consuming my life, which works out just fine.

"This is non-news."

How is this non-news? We got a specific date. That's a pretty important bit of info, no?

I'm not too concerned, Wii will still sell out their entire stock and Third parties have a better chance to shine. Galaxy is now GOTY CONFIRMED too

It sucks, but no biggie. Like I said, I'm fine with the delay as long as they use that time to polish the game further. I'm betting anything they are working VERY hard on the online modes, since they confirmed it will have issues.

Bummer, at first I was like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!", ah well, it seems I will have more time to play other games, I think Brawl is going to be one of the most feature rich games ever made, so they do need that extra time.

So what are they putting in its place? Better be Endless Ocean!

You didn't hear? Endless Ocean is delayed until 2009 =(

Endless ocean has not changed dates, and as far as I can tell, nothing has.

It's going to be a Galaxy Holiday.

This is VERY different from the GC days. Melee was severely rushed because the GC had NOTHING for the Holidays. Zelda and Mario were years away, Pikmin was a very niche title and the system lacked third party games. Nintendo needed Melee badly. The Wii, on the other hand, already has a Mario game to be released this year, the system is rich in third party titles and many of the launch titles are STILL selling well.

Its obvious that the Wii can survive with just Galaxy and its catalog of second and third party games.

EDIT: Also, this will help Mario and Sonic at the Olympics do well. The news of Sonic being in Brawl overshadowed the fact that Mario and Sonic are already facing each other at the Olympic venue. By delaying Brawl it will give room for fans to enjoy the game, then go for the second cross over event.

Well one thing I like about Nintendo is that they seem to have gotten back to quality even if it means delays. As Pap stated during the GC era they rushed out titles like Wind Waker, Super Mario Sunshine, and Melee. Now they seem to be back to "As much time as the game needs" which is great IMO.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Well one thing I like about Nintendo is that they seem to have gotten back to quality even if it means delays. As Pap stated during the GC era they rushed out titles like Wind Waker, Super Mario Sunshine, and Melee. Now they seem to be back to "As much time as the game needs" which is great IMO.

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I think the trend started with Twilight Princess, which was given a big development window and I'm not just talking about the Wii version. Wind Waker while I love the game to death, did feel rushed, heck if I recall it still had the islands that were meant to be entrances to the dungeons. Heck it only having 4 bosses was an indication of how it was pushed out. Sunshine, yet another amazing game IMO, suffered from the blue coin collecting and no motivation to get them all which indicated to me the game was not ready. But Brawl is looking to be a great game, and Nintendo seems to realize the potential letting delays occur.

How are you complaining that Melee was rushed? The game was near perfect...

There goes my christmas. thanks grinches.

"As Pap stated during the GC era they rushed out titles like Wind Waker, Super Mario Sunshine, and Melee. Now they seem to be back to 'As much time as the game needs' which is great IMO."

I'll agree with this. I'm not really comfortable with the Wii having sold so well on what I consider really lousy third party support and an initially weak first party lineup. But if it can that gives Nintendo a chance to relax and we'll get better games from that. Plus, although I see no signs of it, maybe Nintendo will eventually ease up on the franchises. The whole "Who are you?" thing and this huge sudden glut of spinoffs seemed to be panic reaction from Nintendo after the Xbox crushed them at Christmas 2002 and it was clear the Cube wasn't selling. That didn't work (Mario doesn't sell Cubes so the solution is more Mario? Huh?) There's no need to panic now. They can relax and make whatever they want.

And who called Pikmin niche? Damn it that game deserved to be a huge hit. I blame Nintendo's then inability to market anything at all. I don't even recall the game getting it's own ad. I think it was just bunched in with a general Cube ad. They never gave it an A franchise push so it wasn't accepted as such. I'm not the biggest WiiSports fan but at least they were pushing something new. They never pushed the new stuff on the Cube. They only pushed the franchise stuff that people who were not already fans obviously wouldn't be interested in. Don't like Mario on the N64? Well maybe you'll buy him on a Cube! It's like the N64 with no Rare, cartoon Zelda, crappy Star Fox games and no good wrestling games or first person shooters! We're also the only console without GTA!

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How are you complaining that Melee was rushed? The game was near perfect...

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Originally posted by: Mashiro

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How are you complaining that Melee was rushed? The game was near perfect...

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Welp, there goes the thread lol.

Melee was rushed, as awesome as it was I will agree that there were some areas that felt rushed and tacked on.

I still say the game was fantastic and one of my favorite games to play well ever but Brawl is just taking it to the next level. To a level I don't think will be topped for a very...very very long time.

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Hey, I'm all for them taking as much time as they need for this game. It will be worth waiting for. A rushed game sucks forever, though waiting for a great game is only a temporary thing. I'm also glad Nintendo is returning to taking the "quality not quantity" approach of the good old days.

Besides, my holiday lineup is already pretty crowded.

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Originally posted by: Maximilian
Hey, I'm all for them taking as much time as they need for this game. It will be worth waiting for. A rushed game sucks forever, though waiting for a great game is only a temporary thing. I'm also glad Nintendo is returning to taking the "quality not quantity" approach of the good old days.

Besides, my holiday lineup is already pretty crowded.

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Originally posted by: Pale
How are you complaining that Melee was rushed? The game was near perfect...

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Hah, I'm not going to derail the thread, but it sounds to me like there is no way you will ever be happy with Brawl.

Pap64 has been corrupted by Smash_Bros' unreasonable.. um, Smash Bros demands.

Delays are always a sad thing, but I agree that Nintendo taking extra time is a great thing. I do wonder if it's three months of some super spitshine polish or if some licensing breakthrough/last-minute idea occured and now a new character + stage + items + etc. is go to be in the mix. We got Konami and Sega with an invite character, perhaps Capcom, Bandai-Namco, Square-Enix, or Tecmo sent back their RSVP to? Better yet, Natsume! A Harvest Moon character would be great.

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Originally posted by: Pale
Hah, I'm not going to derail the thread, but it sounds to me like there is no way you will ever be happy with Brawl.

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Pap64 has been corrupted by Smash_Bros' unreasonable.. um, Smash Bros demands.

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Or maybe... just maybe a little bit... Nintendo finally admitted to itself one of the secret truths of the game industry: post-Christmas games sell well. Blizzard has had the most obvious success with WoW (Jan 2005) and Starcraft (Feb 1998), but other companies have also had success after Christmas. There's only a limited amount of money to go around before Christmas, and there are too many game releases. Something usually has to give in a family's budget. Also, marketing messages become drowned out around Christmas time as there are too many other things vying for consumers' attentions. Marketing costs are higher around Christmas, too, and Nintendo already has to push Mario and Sonic, Super Mario Galaxy, Battalion Wars II, Wii Fit, and a bunch of other games. So maybe they're thinking, "Well, we can stretch our marketing dollar a bit more if we polish Brawl for another month or two. That will improve the game, and we'll be able to advertise it better after Christmas."

EDIT: Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention another possible factor: if there are few other games released in March, then more people will want to buy Brawl.

What I like about Brawl is that they are able to take the foundations from Melee and go crazy with it, getting more then enough time to turn it into a extremely polished game with a lot of variety.

The clones suggest Melee was rushed but the game is still one of the best games Nintendo ever made. Maybe HAL handles being rushed better than EAD does. Metroid Prime would technically have been rushed as well but you wouldn't notice it playing the game. So I guess Retro is good at handling a rush too. EAD needs to suck it up and learn a few things from their colleagues.

I've been a Nintendo fan for so long that Delays make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. &>

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I've been a Nintendo fan for so long that Delays make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. &>

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If they added voice communication, it would be worth it.


But they won't and I'm sad.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I've been a Nintendo fan for so long that Delays make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. &>

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It reminds me of the N64 era, which brought about some of the most polished Nintendo titles around.

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Originally posted by: Tanookisuit
The delay is to include new collectible items- stuffed animal gallery and temporary tatoo gallery.

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I'm not sure what this delay is going to mean. Since it's only two months, this tells me that they probably needed more time to test the online functionality. A push out of two months doesn't indicate major reworking, or really any massive additions, but it does indicate that somebody said, "this isn't ready for prime time, we need to add six more weeks to the schedule to get where we need to be".

If they had pushed this out to Q3 2008, then that means they're adding something major. But two months? In the scope of a project like this, that's tweaking time+maybe a few more trophies or low-risk extras.

I'm sure NCL's stance is "Need more time? Sure, whatever...we have Mario Galaxy."

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Originally posted by: Shift Key

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Originally posted by: Tanookisuit
The delay is to include new collectible items- stuffed animal gallery and temporary tatoo gallery.

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Worst. Excuse. Ever.

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Well, at least it'll be perfect, and at least I won't be flat broke.

Sticker mechanic refinements were needed, so that is why they delayed it.

Launch title for the win

Sometimes I get really frustrated with how people view the development cycle of a game.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe, just maybe, the clones aren't rushed and are instead extras? Would you have been happier if they were just taken out? For Melee, I'm sure Nintendo said "this game needs to be out the same holiday season as the system." This statement probably occurred well before it happened.

Development started. The core game was coming together. Team members were then shifted to added content as they were freed up. "Guys, let's just get in as many trophies as we have time for." "Hey look at this. While we were balancing Captain Falcon, we got this other cool possibility in upping his power but slowing him down. This doesn't really fit with what Captain Falcon is all about, but it would be really cool if we could get a Ganondorf model in here."

You are all so pessimistic in saying that the game came out the way it did because it was rushed. The game came out the way it did because everything you just complained about are essentially extras that they put in.

Not to mention some of your complaints are completely ridiculous. You are upset because the trophy count can't be evenly divided by 2? Or 5? er 10? er 100? I don't even know what would qualify as not an odd number. You are just making a baseless assumption that they wanted 300 and ran out of time when it is just as likely they had 200 originally planned, and 93 more were just snuck in.

/sigh. You won't enjoy Brawl because you tried to hate Melee. Look how hard you tried. That list is just silly.

Pale I think you are in extreme denial.

I do this stuff for a living. It's not games, but it's close enough.

My point is that nothing you are complaining about is the main game. They are all extras. The nature of extras is that they aren't "rushed". They are added given a time frame.

I guarantee you Brawl was delayed for a more important reason than "we need to add more trophies."

I have no issues with saying the clones in Melee made the extra characters feel tacked on and rushed. As was said earlier as well there was originally going to be a Fire Emblem stage but it never came to fruition.

With that said, as others have said, Melee is still an amazing game and one of the few titles on the cube that made it worth the purchase and one of my favorite multiplayer games of all time.

Brawl is just setting the standard insanely high, so high that in the end Melee is going to look far less perfect in many peoples eyes. At least that is how I see it.

Edit: Brawl is most likely being delayed because they need to add or perfect something . . . something important enough to not make the christmas release date. Which is fine. Brawl is going to be as close to perfect as can be.

I'd take a two-month delay for more Assist Trophies and other goodies... =3

Clones are thrown in to make rosters bigger and you don't have the development time to make a unique character, not to mention I don't recall SSB: Melee being delayed much, which is strange for a title that big. Let's not even get into the lame single player mode that felt rushed.

Exactly. See, Bill (and Me and most of us) would never say "that's enough assist trophies." You can't schedule that. It's infinite. The developer has to say "this is when we aren't putting in any more extras."

It's not rushing, it's the only way to finish something.

Nevermind, this is hopeless.

For all of you if you can think of a way to make it better that's the same as being rushed.

Bah.

I dunno I enjoyed single player mode in Melee for what it was . . .

With that said Nintendo needed Melee to come out for Xmas or cube really wouuld have been dead in the water.

Wii prints money with DS so now they can take all the time they want to make the game as perfect as it can be =)

Nothing is EVER finished. Just shipped.

Official:

Smash Brother Fans are more annoying and more closed minded to their game having flaws than Halo fans.

Let me put it this way, I am far more forgiving for the extras being more "rushed" then I am of fighters being clones. When a games bread and butter is the fighting/stages, those should be perfected before anything else is added.

To me there is a vast difference between something being rushed and being a bad game,

Example: Yeah Gannondorf would have been awesome with his own fighting style and not a rip of captain falcons, but it isn't going to kill the game. It's still a 9.5/10 in my book.

Ya know?

Brawl will be perfection. I'm gonna say it now. It will be as perfect as a Smash experience as gamers could hope to get. It will be . . . the perfect 10.

"Brawl is just setting the standard insanely high, so high that in the end Melee is going to look far less perfect in many peoples eyes. At least that is how I see it."

That seems like it should be expected. Melee pretty much rendered the original SSB obsolete and if Brawl can do the same to Melee then it's just HAL keeping the quality of the series high.

I agree with Pale though in that people are trying to think of reasons to dislike Melee. I never heard anyone crap on that game until smash_brother started doing it.

And the single player was great because it actually, you know, had one. Two different "story" type of modes and then all those challenges? My brother and I spent months playing that game EVERY DAY to unlock the sound test. There was just so much to do. SSB had the problem that it was really didn't offer much for a single player and Melee fixed this. I'm sure some purist will protest that the multiplayer mode suffered as a result but I sure as hell didn't notice it. I'm not some boring tourney player who plays with all items off, one-on-one, and only on the boring flat final stage like this is Street Fighter II or something. When friends were over the game was a blast. When I didn't have people over there was tons to do and I enjoyed it.

I didn't like how they had clones but as Pale pointed out having them was better than not having those characters at all. The game is still a 10. Still in the top five Cube games. Still a required purchase... until this February.

It is funny, but I hated the clones long before I even came to NWR. Also the logic that "I'd rather have clones then none at all" is ridiculous, they had time to put in all that extra stuff, why not focus on an aspect of the game that is its primary draw, the fighters and worry about the extras next. Clones are inexcusable whether it is smash brothers or any other fighter, they are lazy, rushed characters to bump up the fighter list but add nothing new to the formula besides a new look.


Also I think my point that Smash Brothers fans are completely closed minded to flaws in Melee has been proven nicely. Heck I don't think I've ever held a game in such "perfection" as people hold Melee. Only an extreme fanboi would tout an obvious flaw, that is clones, as something good. Heck let me say that the treasure hunting quest in Wind Waker was good, because hey it is better than nothing!

Pale is right, the rest of you are wrong.

DELAY BRAWL UNTIL Wii-HiDef OR IT IS PHAIL

"Also the logic that 'I'd rather have clones then none at all' is ridiculous"

Why? I like having more Nintendo characters represented. There is a subtle difference in many of the clones so if you're all leet and hardcore that might be a big deal. It's not like if they weren't clones they would have been fully developed characters. It was a couple clones or less characters. I don't like having clones but having two versions of Link and being able to have Link, Zelda and Ganondorf duke it out on a Zelda themed stage is pretty neat. The Nintendo references are part of the fun as well as dream matchups. Ganondorf vs. Bowser. Cool fanboy stuff that in Melee requires a clone character. Better to have clone Ganondorf in there then to not have that match up.

Now if Brawl keeps the clones identical that will suck. Ganondorf better have some more tweaking to make him a more unique character.

I totally understand where Pale is coming from... How can anyone say SSBM was rushed because of the clone characters? Why can't it simply be that the clones were added in for fun? Perhaps someone thought it'd be neat to give Mario an alternate costume of Dr. Mario. Then someone else thought, hey, he should throw pills instead of fireballs... etc., etc...

Could they have delayed the game and fleshed out the clones more? Sure! Does it mean it was "rushed" because they didn't? Not in my book. It's not like they cut out characters in order to put the clones in (that we know of, at least)...

Also, someone made the comment that SSBM wasn't delayed - we don't know that. For all we know, it could have been a planned N64 title that got pushed back for the GameCube... Remember, Nintendo's known for holding their cards close.

You know, this really bummed me out at first, but just a few months ago I was complaining that I'd have to get it before Christmas to avoid being swamped when Christmas rolled around. I think Brawl will do good things for Nintendo, but I think Mario Galaxy will be good for them too.

I do think it may have been good for Nintendo if they had a AAA DS title.

Like I said only a Smash Brothers fan would defend something like clones as a positive. I hate the excuse "Well at least they included it", I'm sorry but I don't buy that at all, I'd rather have something polished like crazy then have a bunch of extras that are thrown in with little to no care put into them. Ganondorf had potential to be a great character, but they dropped the ball big time and created a lazy Falcon clone, that added NOTHING to the game, might as well made him an assist trophy and left it at that. Also in regards to delays, people seem to forget the N64 era, there were constant delays, Nintendo has NEVER been one to keep a delay secret. Remember Smash Brothers Brawl being a launch title? Yeah exactly. When Nintendo delays and it is public, Melee didn't get that, because it was to be pushed out the door to be on the shelves be Christmas. Heck it seems most people agree it was rushed, but it is obvious some are in denial.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Official:

Smash Brother Fans are more annoying and more closed minded to their game having flaws than Halo fans.

Let me put it this way, I am far more forgiving for the extras being more "rushed" then I am of fighters being clones. When a games bread and butter is the fighting/stages, those should be perfected before anything else is added.

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Personally I want them to take as long as it takes to make this game perfect.

However, maybe it just hasn't fully sunken in that the N64/GCN era is over, but the Wii losing such a huge holiday title does have me worried.
We still have Mario and several high profile third-party titles and the Wii is expected to sell out this Christmas regardless but . . . . what if it doesn't? The tides can change fast. after all.

I don't think anyone is denying that the clone characters are... lacking. The disagreement is if their presence in the game takes something away from the game.

If you'd rather play the game without the clone characters, simply don't select them - you can enjoy the game exactly how it would likely have been without the clones in there. Again, we have no evidence that a full fledged Ganondorf would have been in the game, if not for the clone.

As per the delay, again, we don't know if SSBM was delayed. While Nintendo has been known to be public about delays, that only concerns games that have been announced. If SSBM hadn't been announced, they're not going to do so by also announcing it had been delayed. We simply don't know any details about the pre-release history of SSBM.

Rumor is, Nintendo had actually planned to release Tetris DS within the first six months of the DS's life - about 12-18 months earlier than when the game came out. Yet the game was announced only two months before it was released. Technically (assuming the rumor was true), Tetris DS was delayed - yet no one knows...

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
I don't think anyone is denying that the clone characters are... lacking. The disagreement is if their presence in the game takes something away from the game.

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I think we can all agree Brawl looks EXTREMELY promising.

>"If I am not mistaken, the clones were never even planned to begin with. They were an extremely late addition, hence why their squares are misplaced on the character select menu as well as why some of them don't make sense.

And what people seem to be ignoring is the fact that the clone characters took roster spaces away from worthy characters."

These two statements seem to contradict one another. The clones were last minute additions, yet they took away space from other characters?

How many other, full fledged characters do you think they could have added in Melee last minute had they focused on that instead of the clones?

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
"If I am not mistaken, the clones were never even planned to begin with. They were an extremely late addition, hence why their squares are misplaced on the character select menu as well as why some of them don't make sense.

And what people seem to be ignoring is the fact that the clone characters took roster spaces away from worthy characters."

These two statements seem to contradict one another. The clones were last minute additions, yet they took away space from other characters?

How many other, full fledged characters do you think they could have added in Melee last minute had they focused on that instead of the clones?

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Originally posted by: pap64
Take a look at some of Brawl's newcomers; Pit, Metaknight and Wario. People wanted those characters to be in Melee, they even did lists similar to the ones we are seeing right now. Pit was one of the most requested characters in Melee. All three had a great chance of being in the game, but no, the game was rushed and in their place were clones. The biggest offenders are Dr. Mario and Ganondorf.

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I did, in fact, read your post. You said you thought the clones were put in at the last minute. Adding in totally new characters could not have been done at the last minute - it would have taken more time. Could the game have been delayed and more (new) characters added into it? I suppose (assuming that there wasn't technical reasons that the game couldn't contain more full-fledged characters) the game could have been delayed... and more characters could have been added. Heck, if they delayed it until the end of the GameCube's life, they could have added in Wario-Ware Wario, Bowser Jr., etc., etc... But wait - if they had delayed it past the GameCube's life, they could have just released Melee on the Wii and included the online modes in Melee. Wait! Let's just delay Melee until the next Nintendo system comes out - then Melee could be in high def!

Heck, if Nintendo had delayed the original Legend of Zelda until 2020... I wonder how awesome it could have been.

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
I did, in fact, read your post. You said you thought the clones were put in at the last minute. Adding in totally new characters could not have been done at the last minute - it would have taken more time. Could the game have been delayed and more (new) characters added into it? I suppose (assuming that there wasn't technical reasons that the game couldn't contain more full-fledged characters) the game could have been delayed... and more characters could have been added. Heck, if they delayed it until the end of the GameCube's life, they could have added in Wario-Ware Wario, Bowser Jr., etc., etc... But wait - if they had delayed it past the GameCube's life, they could have just released Melee on the Wii and included the online modes in Melee. Wait! Let's just delay Melee until the next Nintendo system comes out - then Melee could be in high def!

Heck, if Nintendo had delayed the original Legend of Zelda until 2020... I wonder how awesome it could have been.

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Take my advice, people, this train of discussion leads absolutely nowhere.

I've a great deal of experience in this area.

Melee was rushed. Brawl won't be. That's ALL that matters.

They're including the Falcon and Leon story mode stage idea I sent them.

Perhaps we have different ideas of "rushed"... To me, a game is rushed when it's pushed out to meet a time frame when the game isn't ready - i.e.: isn't good.

For example, both OoT and Wind Waker where "rushed" and therefore missing temples that were planned to be in the games. Yet I don't think anyone would call OoT rushed... even with all the bugs in that game.

I love how so many internet discussions devolve into people calling other people blind fanboys.

I just lost a lot of respect for a couple of the posters here. I'm looking forward to my nice camping tip this weekend to get away from some of this internet silliness.

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Originally posted by: Pale
I love how so many internet discussions devolve into people calling other people blind fanboys.

I just lost a lot of respect for a couple of the posters here. I'm looking forward to my nice camping tip this weekend to get away from some of this internet silliness.

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Or people pretending that they know what goes on behind closed doors...

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Let me put it this way, I am far more forgiving for the extras being more "rushed" then I am of fighters being clones.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
When a games bread and butter is the fighting/stages, those should be perfected before anything else is added.

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Originally posted by: Arbok


Nothing is perfect. You can find flaw in everything.

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Originally posted by: Pale
I love how so many internet discussions devolve into people calling other people blind fanboys.

I just lost a lot of respect for a couple of the posters here. I'm looking forward to my nice camping tip this weekend to get away from some of this internet silliness.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
A clone is far from being a "flaw" it is a quick way to knock off a few more characters without taking the time to flesh them out or if they don't have the time, they could spend it perfecting something else.

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It's funny - as much as people rag on the clones, one of those clones tends to be a fan favorite.

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
It's funny - as much as people rag on the clones, one of those clones tends to be a fan favorite.

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Originally posted by: Arbok

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
A clone is far from being a "flaw" it is a quick way to knock off a few more characters without taking the time to flesh them out or if they don't have the time, they could spend it perfecting something else.

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But it added to the enjoyment, did they not?

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Originally posted by: pap64
I already said that this is a matter of preference, but it bugs me when people are trying to shove down an opinion down my throat simply because its what everyone thinks. THAT'S what been bugging me about the whole issue.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
If you consider a character skin swap over another's move set fun. A genre that comes to mind that does this a lot and it bothers me just as much are the pro wrestling games.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
If you consider a character skin swap over another's move set fun. A genre that comes to mind that does this a lot and it bothers me just as much are the pro wrestling games.

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GP takes the clones issue to a whole new level and while I (begrudgingly) respect her view on it I see it this way:

From a development stand point, adding in character skins with similar animations and fighting styles as other characters more than likely did not take up a lot of time. You don't have to worry about much in terms of balancing and already have a move template to work from. They weren't exact copies but I'm sure it didn't take all too long to do.

Hence, the clones did not take away from the overall game. The lack of extended development time may have (as is evident with Brawl with just how much they can do) but again, it doesn't make it any less of a good game. Clones don't warrant hanging the game nor do they harm the game, it just shows that they didn't have enough time to implement original move sets for them.

The game (Melee) was still phenomenally fun, it was and still is a great fighting game and is a definite near perfect title for the Gamecube. While we can nit pick at some of the disappointments of the game it still remains a classic and a real gem for Nintendo. It succeeds in it's main area, an it's an insanely fun multiplayer game with lots of unlockable content for fans young and new alike and a 1 player story mode which brings some nostalgia into play.

But as I said, Brawl is bringing everything to the next level and it looks to be one of those games that won't be topped for a very long time. It'll be Smash Brothers perfected and we be a very worthy successor to Melee.

I always wondered why they didn't take attacks from different characters and use those to make a clone.

For example, for Ganondorf, take Samus' charge shot, Peach's ability to float and Marth's sword and you'd have a Ganondorf which is pretty close to OoT's, plus his sword.

It would take a great deal of fine tuning, of course, but I think it could have worked and made for a better 'dorf than outright duping Falcon.

And FYI, I'd never say that Melee is a bad game. It was a great game, it just had a very different feel from the original SSB which made it a DIFFERENT game. I don't know if Brawl will restore that feel, but it might just wind up being the best of both worlds (hopefully).

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
And FYI, I'd never say that Melee is a bad game. It was a great game, it just had a very different feel from the original SSB which made it a DIFFERENT game. I don't know if Brawl will restore that feel, but it might just wind up being the best of both world (hopefully).

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother


And FYI, I'd never say that Melee is a bad game. It was a great game

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Originally posted by: UncleBob

So, do you feel cheated when games allow you to push a button to select the same character with a different color costume? I mean, instead of spending time picking out different colored costumes, they could have spent the time perfecting other aspects of the game, right?

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Originally posted by: Arbok
Most likely, although I love my bulky Captain Falcon... I truly do hope there is someone in Brawl that plays like that, as the difference between him and Falcon, even if their B moves were the same (which you hardly used anyway, if you knew what you were doing, besides when recovering), was night and day in terms of how you played them. I'd love for someone like Deathborn or Black Shadow to be added and play like that, except with new B, or special, moves added in.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: Arbok
Most likely, although I love my bulky Captain Falcon... I truly do hope there is someone in Brawl that plays like that, as the difference between him and Falcon, even if their B moves were the same (which you hardly used anyway, if you knew what you were doing, besides when recovering), was night and day in terms of how you played them. I'd love for someone like Deathborn or Black Shadow to be added and play like that, except with new B, or special, moves added in.

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This is why I want them to take as LONG as they need to to get Brawl to feel right.

I'm hoping that, even if the characters feel different, they wind up feeling right in the end.

I'm still hoping poor ol' Bowser gets a makeover and it makes him less of a punching bag and more of a threat.

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Bowser HAS a killer final smash you know...

ahahaha nintendo hates nintendo fans

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Bowser better be cool, it is sad seeing my favorite character get beat up in Melee all the time. Even I played as Donkey Kong most of the time, and in a way I feel I betrayed him!

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Originally posted by: pap64
Bowser HAS a killer final smash you know...

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I mention it because one of the previews mentions that smash balls could balance certain characters out (strong character-tricky FS, weak character-strong FS).

Plus, Giga Bowser is hard to bully around .

With all the neck snapping going on, I hope Giga Bowser can eat players.

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Originally posted by: Pale


What makes this even worse is that they probably had the dojo updates scheduled based on the earlier date, so they are probably even going to run out of those.

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I think it's really funny that this thread has twice as many replies as the one about Sonic being in the game.

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
I think it's really funny that this thread has twice as many replies as the one about Sonic being in the game.

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
I think it's really funny that this thread has twice as many replies as the one about Sonic being in the game.

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Originally posted by: pap64
I mention it because one of the previews mentions that smash balls could balance certain characters out (strong character-tricky FS, weak character-strong FS).

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: pap64
I mention it because one of the previews mentions that smash balls could balance certain characters out (strong character-tricky FS, weak character-strong FS).

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Wait, was that a Nintendo-official preview or a journalism opinion?!

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: pap64
I mention it because one of the previews mentions that smash balls could balance certain characters out (strong character-tricky FS, weak character-strong FS).

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Wait, was that a Nintendo-official preview or a journalism opinion?!

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Originally posted by: pap64
Opinion. The guy noticed that some of the weaker characters had some really strong final smashes (like Peach) while strong ones had some tricky ones.

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Thankfully I don't play in tournaments and probably won't notice as many balance issues if there are any.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Thankfully I don't play in tournaments and probably won't notice as many balance issues if there are any.

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If you're going to call Melee rushed, you can call every single game ever made rushed. You can always keep delaying a game to make it better, but at some point you have to consider diminishing returns. There's a plateau where adding and improving just isn't worth it, especially considering the context of the console it's released on. Melee reached that plateau. It, along with F-Zero GX and Pikmin 2 are the only GameCube games that deserve pure, unadulterated 10s. (Sunshine and Eternal Darkness are millimetres away)

Also, it's funny how you guys are criticising such minor stuff from Brawl, rather than things that actually matter like the gameplay. GP, if I were to nitpick Power Stone 2's flaws as throughly as you're doing to Melee, I'd probably die at my computer.

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Originally posted by: IceCold
If you're going to call Melee rushed, you can call every single game ever made rushed. You can always keep delaying a game to make it better, but at some point you have to consider diminishing returns. There's a plateau where adding and improving just isn't worth it, especially considering the context of the console it's released on. Melee reached that plateau. It, along with F-Zero GX and Pikmin 2 are the only GameCube games that deserve pure, unadulterated 10s. (Sunshine and Eternal Darkness are millimetres away)

Also, it's funny how you guys are criticising such minor stuff from Brawl, rather than things that actually matter like the gameplay. GP, if I were to nitpick Power Stone 2's flaws as throughly as you're doing to Melee, I'd probably die at my computer.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That's funny, I thought I liked SSB: M, so because I hate the clones and feel they are a sign of rushed product, I hate it? ... Perhaps you should read what I said instead of making me out to be this uber SSB: M hater.

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Hmm? When did I call you a hater? Is there the word "hate" in my post? Perhaps you should read what I said.

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Hmm? When did I call you a hater? Is there the word "hate" in my post? Perhaps you should read what I said.

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Also, it's funny how you guys are criticising such minor stuff from Brawl, rather than things that actually matter like the gameplay.

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Why are we all getting bent out of shape over this again?

Hater?
Rushed?

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Originally posted by: Crimm
Why are we all getting bent out of shape over this again?

Hater?
Rushed?

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Personally I can't stand rapid fans no matter the series

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Originally posted by: Crimm

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Personally I can't stand rapid fans no matter the series

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I too hate fast people.
But let's get back on the topic at hand. I'll start:


SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Fine, it looks like Nintendo delayed SSB:B to put in picture taking!

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You all know we were do a major Nintendo delayed release. When was the last one? Well, I guess it depends on if you count Twil...wait no that would be Metroid Prime 3...then Twilight Princess...then... oh damn Galaxy is so getting pushed back.

Mario "It may be out on launch or within 6 months of launch" Galaxy

CHALLENGE: Name a AAA Nintendo Title that wasn't delayed.

Super Mario 64? =) Launch titles ftw!

Does that count? I mean it was an N64 launch title as promised, but the N64 itself was delayed SEVERAL times if I recall.

Sure it does, it counts based on technicalities!

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: UncleBob

So, do you feel cheated when games allow you to push a button to select the same character with a different color costume? I mean, instead of spending time picking out different colored costumes, they could have spent the time perfecting other aspects of the game, right?

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That is a good question, and I'm going to have say yes if the game had other flaws that could have been fixed in the meantime. Now perhaps not a different COLOR costume because that cannot be hard to implement at all, but maybe a complete model change wearing different clothing. While the clones in Brawl were a quick way to shove in a few more characters, their models had to have taken precious time away from refining the game or maybe even adding some new items.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Things were getting back on track until SOMEONE decided to bring it up all over again. Personally I can't stand rapid fans no matter the series, so that is why I get involved. Besides Pale is the one that got it off track, we were talking about the good ole days when Nintendo delayed stuff compared to the GC era, then Pale responded saying Melee was near perfect, and pap gave his reasons why it wasn't, then Pale said Pap tried to hate the game, along with other accusations that Smash_Brothers started the whole thing, and everyone was following his lead.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
I think it's really funny that this thread has twice as many replies as the one about Sonic being in the game.

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No one likes Sonic anymore, he has been defiling himself for past several years!

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Originally posted by: UncleBob

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: UncleBob

So, do you feel cheated when games allow you to push a button to select the same character with a different color costume? I mean, instead of spending time picking out different colored costumes, they could have spent the time perfecting other aspects of the game, right?

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That is a good question, and I'm going to have say yes if the game had other flaws that could have been fixed in the meantime. Now perhaps not a different COLOR costume because that cannot be hard to implement at all, but maybe a complete model change wearing different clothing. While the clones in Brawl were a quick way to shove in a few more characters, their models had to have taken precious time away from refining the game or maybe even adding some new items.

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The only problem with this is that the individual(s) who do the character models probably aren't the same ones who would be responsible for doing other things in the game (aside from other in-game designs). It's not like that team was going to finish up the character models, then go around and start tweaking the physics of the game or something.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Things were getting back on track until SOMEONE decided to bring it up all over again. Personally I can't stand rapid fans no matter the series, so that is why I get involved. Besides Pale is the one that got it off track, we were talking about the good ole days when Nintendo delayed stuff compared to the GC era, then Pale responded saying Melee was near perfect, and pap gave his reasons why it wasn't, then Pale said Pap tried to hate the game, along with other accusations that Smash_Brothers started the whole thing, and everyone was following his lead.

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That's not quite how it happened and you know it. However, instead of "recapping" it myself, I'll just let anyone who cares go back and re-read it.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
I think it's really funny that this thread has twice as many replies as the one about Sonic being in the game.

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No one likes Sonic anymore, he has been defiling himself for past several years!

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We can agree on that.

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It's strange how conversations can flow from one topic to another. If only this board was set up to allow conversations...

It's interesting that you leave out the fact that Pap was the first to bring up anything about Melee. Pale simply stated "How are you complaining that Melee was rushed? The game was near perfect..." to which Pap replied with a list of complaints, half of which were pretty stupid (Oh noes, there's an uneven amount of trophies!!!1111) Thus, it seems to me that this train wreck started with Pap making an uneducated comment that Melee was rushed. Not that he "felt" it was rushed, but that it *was* rushed, something of which I'm sure Pap has no real knowledge of.

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Originally posted by: UncleBob
It's strange how conversations can flow from one topic to another. If only this board was set up to allow conversations...

It's interesting that you leave out the fact that Pap was the first to bring up anything about Melee. Pale simply stated "How are you complaining that Melee was rushed? The game was near perfect..." to which Pap replied with a list of complaints, half of which were pretty stupid (Oh noes, there's an uneven amount of trophies!!!1111) Thus, it seems to me that this train wreck started with Pap making an uneducated comment that Melee was rushed. Not that he "felt" it was rushed, but that it *was* rushed, something of which I'm sure Pap has no real knowledge of.

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Stop talking about old has-been games.

An uneven number of trophies is a "Valid Concern"?

You posted what you considered to be flaws in the game - that's fine. However, you've not posted any proof that the game was "rushed", which was your initial claim. Then, you get all pissy because we ask you to back up your claim.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai SAID that the game was rushed at one point, but that it was necessary because they needed that Xmas title to push cubes.

They did a good job considering, and my primary complaint about the game wouldn't have changed (that being the speed alienating lesser gamers), but I've beat this argument to death and back.

It doesn't MATTER anymore, though. I'll eat my own legs if Brawl isn't 10X better than Melee in every way anyways. It doesn't matter anymore.

Alright look. I'm going to end this right here.

Firstly, I did not say everything I got blamed for.

Secondly, i apologize, but for some reason you guys are taking all of my arguments more personally than they were meant. With any of my posts, ALWAYS assume that I am good natured. I make it a rule to try not to post when I'm not in a good mood.

Lastly, I wasn't saying all of Pap's concerns weren't valid. I was saying that they aren't proof the game was rushed. You guys are using the word rushed as an excuse when I felt I could give some insight into the development process. All games have timelines. If you asked any developer after their game shipped if they would like to add something if given the chance, 99% of them would say yes.

Melee was given a similar timeline. They did what they could in that timeline and came out with an awesome game. It's completely valid to wish they could have added even more, but trying to blame the developers is just silly. They aren't to blame because, as some of you have said, the game was still great.

Much of this hits home more for me because I have had clients who have a similar mindset. We tell them what can get done in a certain amount of time. They agree. Then they see the final product, think of things that could have been added to make it better, and get pissy, even though taken as it is, the product reached all of their original goals and came out great. Basically people can't magically do everything.

So drop it now. Internet arguments break down when people start getting personal. That is why we try to heavily structure the rules here around avoiding personal attacks. Brushing off an argument by calling someone a fanboy is a personal attack. Apprarently you guys viewed my posts as a personal attack which I apologize for. Let's move on and try and stay a bit more cheerful in future arguments.

Yeah, I agree with Pale. Now, let's forget all our troubles over a generous helping of third party games! MMmmmmm Ninjabread!

Ninjabread cuts the roof of my mouth something fierce! Godzilla meat, on the other hand, goes down smooth..

Fine I will email this to Pale.

Ban GP; ban her now.

Vudu you really shouldn't be throwing around ban statements, considering you can be one of the if not the most insulting people here!

I'll ban both of you.

Like GP before, I decided to just drop this as we are not getting anywhere with this.

Would it stir up any more trouble if I pointed out that the proper way to drop a topic isn't to keep coming back and reminding everyone that you're dropping it? It turns out that's actually a pretty good way of keeping it going, instead.

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Originally posted by: PartyBear
Would it stir up any more trouble if I pointed out that the proper way to drop a topic isn't to keep coming back and reminding everyone that you're dropping it? It turns out that's actually a pretty good way of keeping it going, instead.

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Ninjabread cuts the roof of my mouth something fierce! Godzilla meat, on the other hand, goes down smooth..

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America is now a PAL territory

What's all this crap in this thread for? Freaking nerds.

See the Smash Bros. thread, blame pale!

I can live with it.

Wow so much twisted and pointless debating and arguing...I have to jump in.

I personally think that we should move away from the discussion of whether Melee was rushed or not...that really isn't the point of this thread or the argument.

The fact is that despite Melee being a really great game (that as far as I can tell nobody is denying) that the game isn't perfect.

There are several areas of Melee that can be pointed out as flaws or bad decisions during development and each individual player will weigh those differently on what those flaws mean in the overall scheme of the game.

Personally, I am mixed about the clones. I liked some of them Roy, and Doctor Mario, Young Link, but I didn't like others Gannondorf, Pichu. I don't know if there inclusion hurts the game, because I have a feeling by the time they added those characters they weren't worried about balancing those characters, as in they were extras. Does that mean I think those resources could have been used in other areas of the game? Perhaps, but honestly probably not.

Personally, I had a complaint about the speed of the game and how it became too hectic. None of my friends enjoyed playing the game because it was too fast and hard to follow the action with more than 2 players. This was a valid concern that hurt the replay value of the game for me, because the multiplayer aspect of the game is its biggest draw. But, I did love the single player mode...and for that reason kept the game.

So we move this discussion to Brawl being delayed for further development and we are relieved because it mostly likely means better balance, more items, and just more fun...but I wonder if that is all there is to the delay. From the sounds of the impressions there is some definite character balancing needing to be done, because MetaKnight just sounds too much like a beast, and we know he is a faster character. So let's hope that is being done. As well, I do hope that delay may mean the addition of one or two other 3rd party characters, because this game might be the last Smash Bros game I want it to include all possiblities.

Also, I have a feeling that the art team for Brawl is nearing completition of its work, and I bet half of them are just working on trophies and stickers and such and the other half is working on any last minute changes and details needed in the main game.

Brawl gives me a ALOT of hope, it will have 2 years development time and was able to springboard off the Melee engine meaning that there is a TON of potential in that development time frame.