WiiU

Is Retro Working on Star Fox Wii U?

by Pedro Hernandez - May 4, 2012, 9:54 pm PDT
Total comments: 71 Source: http://techtroid.co.uk/starfox-wii-u-at-e3-2012-10..., Techtroid

The people behind Metroid Prime and Donkey Kong Country Returns may be working with their third Nintendo franchise.

Texas-based Retro Studios could be working on a Star Fox game for Wii U to be revealed at this year's E3, according to a rumor on Techtroid.

The source told the site that while the game is indeed being worked on and will be revealed at E3, it will not be a launch title for the system. They cite Retro as saying that "It's a project everyone wants us to do."

This wouldn't be the first time it was believed that Retro would be working on a famed Nintendo franchise. Back in December, Legend of Zelda creator Shigeru Miyamoto stated that a collaboration with Retro on a Zelda game could be a possibility.

Retro Studios also designed the retro tracks in Mario Kart 7, and previously they worked on the Metroid Prime series and Donkey Kong Country Returns.

Talkback

TJ SpykeMay 05, 2012

I want them working on MP4 or Zelda, not Star Fox. LOL

BlackNMild2k1May 05, 2012

This is a really old rumor BTW
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=16688.msg715904#msg715904

Yea, but this actually has evidence behind it (albeit from a nebulous "source") aside from a magazine saying they want to see Star Fox be made by Retro.

GoldenPhoenixMay 05, 2012

While I would love to see what they could do with Star Fox, I'd much rather they work on a brand new IP. Oh well, whatever they are developing it will undoubtedly be great.

Kytim89May 05, 2012

Everything is proceeding as I have forseen. ;)

When this was first announced I was against it, but as with Trent Richardson, I thought about it and thought about it and now it's exactly what I want from them. Maybe a Mass Effect parody with a lot of ship combat and the humor and insanity of Kid Icarus: Uprising. H

shinyray01May 05, 2012

If Retro is really working on Starfox, I want them to make Starfox: Assault 2.0. Assault had so much potential to be a great game. The only thing i disliked about it was that it was short.

Kytim89May 05, 2012

Star Fox might become my favorite franchise if Retro Studios were to make a new game in the series.

I am interested in whatever Retro is doing, whether it's Zelda or Star Fox or something else.

Quote from: NWR_Neal

I am interested in whatever Retro is doing, whether it's Zelda or Star Fox or something else.

Yeah, for me it really boils down to this. They might be the best development studio in the business right now, and whatever they end up doing I know it'll be great. I'd prefer it be Star Fox, but something else could be just as great. I hope we see something about it at E3, and I'd love a chance to play whatever it is there.

GoldenPhoenixMay 05, 2012

I do believe Retro is one of the best studios going right now, I just want to see them create their own game and IP. A studio that talented should be crafting something that is distinctly their own IP, something like Bungie did with Halo.

EnnerMay 05, 2012

Launch time is a great chance for Retro to make and present a world or universe of their own creation. If this rumor comes true, then it's a shame that they lose that chance.


As much as that saddens me, I'm equally excited to see what Retro can do with Star Fox. I assume the team are at least somewhat familiar with the space combat games of old such as Tie Fighter, Privateer, Wing Commander, Freespace 2, and so on. They could use such knowledge to push Star Fox in to bold, new frontiers. If not, they could at least bring a little space sim influence to the Star Fox 3D shoot'em up.

shinyray01May 05, 2012

Quote from: GoldenPhoenix

I do believe Retro is one of the best studios going right now, I just want to see them create their own game and IP. A studio that talented should be crafting something that is distinctly their own IP, something like Bungie did with Halo.

This I agree with. Let them work on that cancelled Gamecube game Raven Blade or create something totally new.

GoldenPhoenixMay 05, 2012

Quote from: Enner

Launch time is a great chance for Retro to make and present a world or universe of their own creation. If this rumor comes true, then it's a shame that they lose that chance.


As much as that saddens me, I'm equally excited to see what Retro can do with Star Fox. I assume the team are at least somewhat familiar with the space combat games of old such as Tie Fighter, Privateer, Wing Commander, Freespace 2, and so on. They could use such knowledge to push Star Fox in to bold, new frontiers. If not, they could at least bring a little space sim influence to the Star Fox 3D shoot'em up.

Agree with everything you said, I want to be clear I am always excited for whatever their next project is, if it is Star Fox, or something else, they will likely do great, unique,  things with it. It is solely because of their talent that I do hope they get to put their own unique stamp on the industry with a series that people link directly to them.

AdrockMay 05, 2012

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Maybe a Mass Effect parody with a lot of ship combat and the humor and insanity of Kid Icarus: Uprising.

From what I understand, Star Fox has descended into furry melodrama. If Nintendo is going to use Retro Studios to breathe new life into the franchise, going in a more comedic direction is a good place to start. College Humor's The Fantastic Mr. Star Fox might be too difficult to pull off for an entire game. However, a parody on the whole space marine motif could go a long way.

Like many people in this thread, I'd prefer Retro Studios work on almost anything else (unless Nintendo expands them to 2 or 3 teams). However, this is a direction I could get behind. Comedy is extremely difficult to do well but hire the right people and you're onto something. I would die if Nintendo/Retro Studios hired Mayt Groening or Adam Reed (Sealab 2021, Archer) to oversee Star Fox's story and script.

darkone008May 05, 2012

I thought they were working on F zero.

AdrockMay 05, 2012

To my knowledge, nothing was ever announced which is par for the course with Retro Studios. Someone at the company teased that they're working on "a project anyone wants us to do." There were rumors a couple months ago that they were working on Star Fox but I believe those were largely unsubstantiated. Miyamoto mentioned something about collaborating with Retro Studios on a Zelda game. That would be second on my Retro Studios wish list after Mario.

KDR_11kMay 05, 2012

I hope not. The basic concept of Star Fox simply isn't one that lends itself to a full retail release these days and any attempts to make it one seem to make it worse or turn it into a different game (or both). The last Afterburner game was download-only, Star Fox should probably follow that direction. Nintendo really doesn't have to cling onto every last franchise.

SundoulosMay 05, 2012

I fully expect that if this rumor is true, it will be another Star Fox game that is sort of a hybrid of genres.  I would expect something else in the vein of Starfox Adventures, only with better combat, puzzles, and without all the stupid. 
Way back when, people compared Starfox Adventures to a Zelda game, sometimes, and, in light of that, some of Miyamoto's comments might apply. 

I would also expect that more attention paid to the on-rails space combat sections in between levels.  If this is early-enough in the development cycle, perhaps Kid Icarus: Uprising could provide some inspiration toward that end.

StrawHousePigMay 05, 2012

No Star Fox Adventures! Star Fox is flying through space, blowing shit up.

And giant flying robot monkey brains.

broodwarsMay 05, 2012

Well, before DKCR was announced, I was very against Retro working on DK and that turned out to be one of my favorite Wii games (despite Nintendo's asinine forced motion controls). Likewise, while a Retro-made Star Fox could be cool, that franchise at this point pretty much needs to be gutted and rebuilt from scratch to be relevant these days. There is no market for 2 hour long railshooters anymore, and that narrative is just beyond saving now. That's a lot of work I'd much rather see Retro put into their OWN game that fills a hole no other Nintendo studios could otherwise fill themselves. Retro deserves better than to be stuck as the repairman for franchises other studios have neglected or destroyed.

Fiendlord_TimmayMay 05, 2012

Man, I thought people would be all for this. People have been clamoring for a new Star Fox game since the Wii launched. Now, as soon as it's rumored that it's Retro working on it, everyone is skeptical/disappointed. Why?

I think Retro has the chops to return Star Fox to its former glory. And as they proved with Metroid Prime, it doesn't need to just be Star Fox 64 with better graphics. They know how to capture the feel of a series while still adding plenty of innovation.

As far as Retro working on a new IP.... there's a reason they're called RETRO studios. They have their role to fill, and they are very good at that role. I'm glad SOMEONE is revitalizing these old franchises, because you know EAD sure as hell won't dedicate their time to a new Star Fox/F-Zero game.

Just my two cents.

TJ SpykeMay 05, 2012

Quote from: Fiendlord_Timmay

As far as Retro working on a new IP.... there's a reason they're called RETRO studios.

They called themselves Retro Studios since they were founded in 1998 and only working on brand new IPs (like Raven Blade and Thunder Rally). The company was almost 2 years old before they started working on Metroid.

broodwarsMay 05, 2012

Quote from: Fiendlord_Timmay

As far as Retro working on a new IP.... there's a reason they're called RETRO studios. They have their role to fill...

Yeah, remember that amazing retro game Raven Blade, which they were working on BEFORE Metroid Prime (and was eventually canceled)?  :rolleyes: Dude, it's just a name.

Edit: Danny cell phone typing being so slow. TJSpyke beat me to it.

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterMay 05, 2012

I'll be painfully blunt with you guys... I am getting sick and tired of all the "OMG RETRO SHOULD TOTALLY WORK ON X GAME" comments, rumors and speculation (ironic since I wrote this article :p ).

I get that they did a fantastic job on Metroid Prime (even though I could care less for them), and many people liked DKC Returns (I wasn't one of those people), and that with Mario 3D Kart they are building a strong relationship with Nintendo. But WHY do all of a sudden people want them to handle ALL of Nintendo's IPs? I get that they are good, but it's like Retro is becoming the "go to" developers for everything Nintendo, to the point where it is making Nintendo look like they are not capable of working on their own franchises and need to outsource them.


I will admit that I think Retro Studios is an overrated game development house, so maybe I am just biased and don't like the idea of them working on EVERY SINGLE NINTENDO GAME. Once more, I get that they are one of the better development groups at Nintendo right now. But still, they shouldn't be the ones saving Nintendo's franchises or making every franchise their own. Let them grow as something else, not as the house that worked on Nintendo's franchises exclusively.

OblivionMay 05, 2012

Well, if it means a good Star Fox game, I say let them do it. Where's the harm in doing that? It gets Nintendo money, we get a good game, and Retro gets to continue making games. Everyone's happy. Well, apparently except for you.

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterMay 05, 2012

I'm not saying they shouldn't develop Star Fox if that's what they want (and Nintendo allowed them to), I'm just against the idea that Retro should handle EVERYTHING at Nintendo.

For some odd reason Retro has never clicked with me. At first I thought that it was just the Metroid Prime games since I never really cared for Metroid. I was honestly more than looking forward to DKC Returns since I love the DK games dearly and he is my favorite Nintendo character. But then I played it and felt absolutely nothing. I played it, and then just stopped playing. I was even very quick to sell the game back, I simply did not have any attachment or emotional reaction to the game, and it's ALWAYS Retro.

And the thing is that I don't quite understand why. I will admit that they have great knowledge in technical presentations, their level design is great, yet I just don't feel their games. It's like they get sooooo much hype out of people that when I play their games I feel like something is not living up to the expectations people have set up for it.

LeontMay 05, 2012

Brilliant! Star Fox has had a rough trip since the N64. Namco tried it and it was ok, but not amazing. IO am sure that Retro will put Fox back on the main track!


I love to see anything that Retro does.

DasmosMay 05, 2012

Haha wow, pap64 didn't like DKC Returns yet he somehow found something I clearly missed in Kirby's Return to Dreamland to warrant giving it a 9.0 in his review? Someone please explain this to me?

He prefers Kirby to Donkey Kong?

CaterkillerMatthew Osborne, Contributing WriterMay 05, 2012

I think for the last 7 E3s I have been shouting baseless predictions for a new Star Fox, this year I don't know... I really really doubt it, still no hints at Star Fox at all.

I did hear back from the writer of the article that details the rumor. Apparently it's a friend of a friend (who works in the industry) and he hesitated to say it was 100% legit.

So basically, who the hell knows.

NWR_pap64Pedro Hernandez, Contributing WriterMay 05, 2012

Quote from: Dasmos

Haha wow, pap64 didn't like DKC Returns yet he somehow found something I clearly missed in Kirby's Return to Dreamland to warrant giving it a 9.0 in his review? Someone please explain this to me?

The short version of it, Neal already gave it to ya.

If it's the long answer you want... I liked that game better than DKC Returns.

Any more questions? :)

Fiendlord_TimmayMay 05, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Fiendlord_Timmay

Yeah, remember that amazing retro game Raven Blade, which they were working on BEFORE Metroid Prime (and was eventually canceled)?  ::) Dude, it's just a name.

Ok, point taken, the name ultimately doesn't dictate what they do. But all of those new IPs they were tinkering with prior to Metroid were all cancelled, so obviously Nintendo thinks (or at least thought at the time) that Retro's efforts are better spent revitalizing old franchises. And I'm glad that they're working on different series now, because the Prime games got pretty stale by 3. If Metroid Prime 4 were announced for Wii U, my reaction would pretty much be "meh."

But anyway, point being, people should be happy that a) Retro is working on something b) That it could very well bring back a beloved franchise and c) that based on their track record it will probably be good. Rather than bitching about what they're NOT making.

BlackNMild2k1May 06, 2012

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

This is a really old rumor BTW (Jan 23, 2012)
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=16688.msg715904#msg715904

and this part of it is even older ;)
(I meant to post this link earlier, but couldn't find where it was in the rumor list during a quick scan)
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=16688.msg667943#msg667943

Retro: “a project everyone wants us to do”

joshnickersonMay 06, 2012

The next Star Fox could be developed by EAD or Retro, be retail or downloadable, I don't care as long as it's closer to what made Star Fox 64 so great, and far away from what made the follow up games so terrible (I'm looking at YOU, Star Fox Command. Burn in hell.).

LittleIrvesMay 06, 2012

I saw that Retro was hiring a character design artist recently, too, which would lend itself to a more Star Fox Adventures-style open world game. Although I guess if it's all space dogfighting, and they retain the little dialogue boxes with profile pictures, they'd still need to design the look of the character. Hmm.

Either way, I'd lap up a new Star Fox from Retro. Sorry that Pedro doesn't enjoy their games. But DKCR and the Prime games are tops in my opinion. And I think Nintendo is handling quite a bit of their own catalog, so no need to worry about them handing over the keys to Austin, TX. One platformer and a few Kart tracks in the past 5 years doesn't seem like an overreliance on one studio. Monster Games has done almost as much, if not more, in the same amount of time. (ExciteBots and Pilotwings.) Personally I'm excited to see what Next Level (Punch-Out!! Wii) has in store next, once they're done mangling licensed fare and get back under the cozy wing of Nintendo.

LittleIrves - Next Level is making Luigi's Mansion 2.

Ian SaneMay 07, 2012

I gave up on DKC Returns really quickly because of the stupid controls, but I blame NCL for that nonsense, not Retro. 

I want Retro to work on a new IP because I just want Nintendo PERIOD working on some new stuff.  I'm playing Xenoblade right now and I love it.  A big part of why I love it is that it is fresh and new.  The characters, the setting, the gameplay - all of this is new to me.  I like Skyward Sword a lot, too, but it's predictable.  The series is old enough now that I can call tons of it before it happens.  I have no interest in just playing the same series anymore.  I don't want just new stuff but I'm not interested in just going through the motions with safe predictable Nintendo sequels.

So Star Fox?  Whatever.  Yeah, it would be nice if they could make that series great again but I find I don't care one way or another if such a game is released.  If they made it and it was good, that would be great and all, but it's not something I'm going to get excited over.

Really what I want is variety and when Nintendo just milks out more Mario and Zelda, there is a lack of variety.  The weak third party support also provides a lack of variety.  What I like about Retro is that they're as talented as Nintendo but they're different.  They have their own style and don't make the same games EAD makes or Intelligent Systems makes.  I like EAD and don't want every game to feel like one of their's.  It's good that Nintendo has multiple devs that have distinct styles.  Retro can provide more variety if they create their own IP because they can truly put their stamp on it and not have to adhere to any conventions established by another team.  Back when Rare was with Nintendo I was glad we got stuff like Banjo-Kazooie, Blast Corps and Perfect Dark.  Those weren't games other Nintendo teams were going to make and that provided variety.  I swear if Iwata was running things then, Rare would have just made Donkey Kong games.

For Nintendo to have variety, encouraging their seperate devs to have their own IP is the easiest way to do it.  So if EAD just wants to make Mario and Zelda the whole time, fine.  Those franchises are still being tended to while the other teams do something else.  Instead every dev team is indistinguishable as Iwata and Miyamoto just assign them to work on the same old bullshit.  Monolith actually does something unique and we were THIS close to having NONE of their Wii games get released in North America.  Nope, we're just the Mario factory, pumping out the same old bullshit until everyone is sick of it.  And then we'll have NOTHING because we pissed away all the years we could have made a new hit with new IP.

What is annoying is that there is so much Mario content that no Mario fan in a million years could ever feel neglected.  They could cut out half of the Mario product being released and no one would complain because they wouldn't notice.  There is new Mario product every year.  You could cut it back to only one Mario title of any sort per year and that still would be tons.

They keep making Mario games because they keep selling insanely well. I agree that they should branch out more, but as long as they're doing as well as they are Nintendo isn't going to stop making Mario. We'll see if the market will support two different NSMB games in the fall, or if we're about to hit the saturation point.

Also, Ian, you should look into setting up homebrew on your Wii so you can play DKCR with a Classic Controller. It really is a phenomenal game once you get past the controls.

Ian SaneMay 07, 2012

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Also, Ian, you should look into setting up homebrew on your Wii so you can play DKCR with a Classic Controller. It really is a phenomenal game once you get past the controls.

I'm always iffy about hacks so I haven't tried it.

broodwarsMay 07, 2012

Quote from: Ian

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Also, Ian, you should look into setting up homebrew on your Wii so you can play DKCR with a Classic Controller. It really is a phenomenal game once you get past the controls.

I'm always iffy about hacks so I haven't tried it.

And in any case, as someone who played a LOT of Donkey Kong Country back in the day, the bandaid the homebrew people put on DKCR with that patch doesn't work as well as I'd like.  It really isn't their fault, but that Retro split the roll and run functions into separate actions in DKCR. Sure, you get your roll on a button, but you can't HOLD the button like you could in the old days to run (instead, you continuously roll).  It's frustrating having to "un-learn" doing that and getting used to Run being on one button, and roll being on another that you ONLY press when you want to roll.

It's still a huge improvement over the standard controls.

Ian SaneMay 07, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ian

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Also, Ian, you should look into setting up homebrew on your Wii so you can play DKCR with a Classic Controller. It really is a phenomenal game once you get past the controls.

I'm always iffy about hacks so I haven't tried it.

And in any case, as someone who played a LOT of Donkey Kong Country back in the day, the bandaid the homebrew people put on DKCR with that patch doesn't work as well as I'd like.  It really isn't their fault, but that Retro split the roll and run functions into separate actions in DKCR. Sure, you get your roll on a button, but you can't HOLD the button like you could in the old days to run (instead, you continuously roll).  It's frustrating having to "un-learn" doing that and getting used to Run being on one button, and roll being on another that you ONLY press when you want to roll.

Irony - Nintendo tries to make their games more accessible to non-gamers but taking something that used to be one button and seperating it into a button and a shake.  The controls are actually MORE complex and thus "confusing" than they were before.  Go figure.

Mop it upMay 07, 2012

I've never played a Star Fox game, but from what I know of it I think Retro could do a good job with the franchise. They are good at designing action scenes, so I'm sure they could make a compelling and exciting Star Fox game. Even if they aren't making it, I hope for the fans' sake that there is a new one in the works.

If they're insisting on doing on-foot segments, which I think they have to do if the game is going to be a retail release, I think Retro is definitely the best team within Nintendo to do it.

Kytim89May 07, 2012

Check out this nice Star Fox fan video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XAJEDJJ_Bo

ivanincubusMay 08, 2012

Oh boy, They're probably just working on character models and multiplayer maps for the game.

AdrockMay 08, 2012

I had a lot of fun with DKCR. The controls would have been better without the waggle roll but they worked pretty well. I beat every level of the game without the Homebrew patch. The areas I had trouble with had nothing to do with the controls. Rather, jumping on the tires and and timing jumps made me want to haymaker a basket of kittens. In that instance, it's not the control's fault that I suck at videogames.

Anyway, I think Star Fox is better suited as a downloadable title. Keep Fox in the Arwing. Taking Fox out and into grind missions makes it an entirely different game. Retro Studios or whatever company handling Star Fox could easily just make an entirely new IP and really go nuts with it, instead of making half a Star Fox game. I mean, I get it in terms of marketing but in terms of artistic integrity, I really don't get it. It's a shame that Nintendo doesn't have enough faith in themselves (anymore?) to establish new IPs based on just great ideas. To me, I don't get it because what made Nintendo into the company they are today was their ability to create classic characters. Don't stop making Mario and Star Fox but not every great idea had to be retro-fitted to be part of those franchises.

GoldenPhoenixMay 08, 2012

Quote from: Adrock

I had a lot of fun with DKCR. The controls would have been better without the waggle roll but they worked pretty well. I beat every level of the game without the Homebrew patch. The areas I had trouble with had nothing to do with the controls. Rather, jumping on the tires and and timing jumps made me want to haymaker a basket of kittens. In that instance, it's not the control's fault that I suck at videogames.

Anyway, I think Star Fox is better suited as a downloadable title. Keep Fox in the Arwing. Taking Fox out and into grind missions makes it an entirely different game. Retro Studios or whatever company handling Star Fox could easily just make an entirely new IP and really go nuts with it, instead of making half a Star Fox game. I mean, I get it in terms of marketing but in terms of artistic integrity, I really don't get it. It's a shame that Nintendo doesn't have enough faith in themselves (anymore?) to establish new IPs based on just great ideas. To me, I don't get it because what made Nintendo into the company they are today was their ability to create classic characters. Don't stop making Mario and Star Fox but not every great idea had to be retro-fitted to be part of those franchises.

Couldn't it be argued that they created new characters out of necessity, since the SNES there really hasn't been many classic characters created. There have been plenty of new franchises, but recognizable characters? Not so much. I mean look at Smash Bros., besides the Pikmin theme, virtually all the franchise characters are from the NES/SNES/GB days and older.

I reviewed DKCR at a 9/10 and I stand by that review.  It was an incredible joy to play through that game.  My only regret was I needed to sell it to get my 3DS at launch. 

Luigi DudeMay 08, 2012

Quote from: Adrock

It's a shame that Nintendo doesn't have enough faith in themselves (anymore?) to establish new IPs based on just great ideas. To me, I don't get it because what made Nintendo into the company they are today was their ability to create classic characters. Don't stop making Mario and Star Fox but not every great idea had to be retro-fitted to be part of those franchises.

Looks like I need to post the list, AGAIN.


Legend of Starfy
Drill Dozer
Rhythm Heaven
The bit Generations series
Band Brothers
Nintendogs
Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents
Polarium
Another Code
Electroplankton
Jump Super Stars
Magnetica
Brain Training
Big Brain Academy
Magical Starsign
Hotel Dusk
ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat
Soma Bringer
Fossil Fighters
Style Savvy
Tomodachi Collection
Geist
Chibi-Robo
Odama
Endless Ocean
Captain Rainbow
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Tact of Magic
Zangeki no Reginleiv
FlingSmash
Xenoblade
The Last Story
Pandora's Tower
Steel Diver
Pushmo
Sakura Samurai
Dillon's Rolling Western




Once again, Nintendo still makes a lot of new IP's.  Just because some of you don't like some of these games doesn't change the fact they're new IP's Nintendo has made in the last decade.

AdrockMay 08, 2012

Quote from: GoldenPhoenix

Couldn't it be argued that they created new characters out of necessity, since the SNES there really hasn't been many classic characters created. There have been plenty of new franchises, but recognizable characters? Not so much. I mean look at Smash Bros., besides the Pikmin theme, virtually all the franchise characters are from the NES/SNES/GB days and older.

Not necessarily. Couldn't the original Star Fox have just been Spaceship Mario? I feel like that's the difference between pre-N64 Nintendo and post-N64 Nintendo. Today's Nintendo is far more apprehensive about releasing a game based on a great new idea without slapping an existing IP on top of it (i.e. Epic Yarn). If Star Fox had come out today, there's a chance it would have been a Mario game. It might be a safer bet in the market but it constricts creativity. There's significantly more artistic freedom in creating something brand new.

Star Fox with ground missions? Why? Just make a Star Fox game. I'm not saying it can't work but there's no need to reinvent the wheel. Let Star Fox be Star Fox. I feel like the series' main issues arose when developers strayed from what the first 2 games were all about. Focus on what made the series so great in the first place. It's a mostly on rails shooter. Stop trying to make it into something it's not. Like I said, don't make half a Star Fox game and shoehorn ideas that don't really work. Those ideas for ground missions could easily evolve into an entire game built around those concepts.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not railing against sequels and demanding new IPs. Rather, I'm advocating the idea that Nintendo stay true to a series. Every franchise must evolve or else risk becoming stale but sometimes the ideas don't make sense. That doesn't mean they toss those ideas out. Instead, save them for when it does.

Quote from: Luigi

Looks like I need to post the list, AGAIN.

No, you really don't. I'm aware that Nintendo has created new IPs so your list is unnecessary.

Quote from: Adrock

Don't stop making Mario and Star Fox but not every great idea had to be retro-fitted to be part of those franchises.

This is what I'm specifically taking about. Forcing ideas that don't really make sense or changing an entire game to be part of an established series (i.e. Dinosaur Planet into Star Fox) damages the brand and the game.

Ian SaneMay 08, 2012

Maybe I should specify that I want new IP from Nintendo that is actually, you know, GOOD and is actually released in North America.  I don't give a fuck if Steel Diver is new.  It sucks.  Pikmin is the usual go-to example because it's comparible in quality to Nintendo's big guns.  It's also by EAD and Miyamoto.  It's not some fringe dev NCL owns that never gets games released outside of Japan.  It's Nintendo big guns making something new instead of sticking to Mario and Zelda the whole time.

Realistically Nintendo could have just re-used Mario, Samus and Link for everything.  Mario for present day stuff, Samus for futuristic/space stuff, and Link for fantasy stuff.  But they didn't and we all benefitted from it.  Nintendo could have easily told Rare to make Banjo-Kazooie a Donkey Kong game or Jet Force Gemini into Metroid 64.  They didn't because back then they took more risks.

It's Iwata's reign that is more cookie cutter.  I noticed the change partially through the Gamecube's life when Nintendo did that "Who are you?" marketing campaign.  The earlier Gamecube titles would have been greenlit when Yamauchi was still in charge.

You can argue that Nintendo HAD to create new IP early on but really what you're saying is that now they're resting on the laurels and that's okay.  So instead of Nintendo being creative for the sake of creating interesting and innovative games, they do so only because of necessity?

ZapMay 08, 2012

They think that flying around in a spaceship has somehow become boring to people? I don't get it. What the heck has happened to video games these days.

GoldenPhoenixMay 08, 2012

Quote:

You can argue that Nintendo HAD to create new IP early on but really what you're saying is that now they're resting on the laurels and that's okay. 

No what is being said is that this is hardly a new phenomena with Wii, and has dated back to the N64 days. I don't think anyone has said they aren't interested in new IPs and characters.

As long as they're bringing new ideas to the table in terms of gameplay, I don't particularly care if they shoehorn them into existing franchises. Storytelling and world building have never been Nintendo's strong suit, and if they want to bypass that and just come up with new gameplay mechanics I'm okay with that.

AdrockMay 08, 2012

I'd appreciate some discretion. Not all new ideas are good ideas, especially within the confines of an existing property. Add them where appropriate. Storytelling and world building may not be Nintendo's strong suit but they're not going to get better unless they try to make them better.

CericMay 08, 2012

The only reason I like to see a WiiU Star Fox (or F-Zero for that matter) instead of a portable one is if the graphics made me seriously believe that I was really just remotely controlling someone really in space.  At that point I would like a Last Starfighter Homage level and for no point where I'm in control to not include a vehicle.

Ian SaneMay 08, 2012

Really what I don't want from Nintendo is mere product.  The numerous Mario sports games are mere product.  They release them for a quick buck.  Same with the incremental Animal Crossing updates, virtually any Pokemon game beyond the main series and stuff like Link's Crossbow Training.  The goal of those titles seems to be to merely get some product out to sell.

Games are a creative medium which arguably makes them art.  The best games are the ones where the creators clearly seemed passionate about their work.  For a creative person the ability to use that creativity is stimulating.  That results in a better game and that passion is noticeable in the game itself.  The big problem with a company like EA or Activision is that there is no passion in most of their games.  The dev team is assigned to make some safe conventional game designed by boardroom executives.  There is little freedom for the team to use their creativity.  The result is merely videogame product.

Nintendo has become a little too much like EA in that regard.  When Iwata or Miyamoto say "make another Mario baseball game" how the hell do the developers motivate themselves?  They're limited in their creativity so the process of creating the game is less stimulating and there is less passion.  I doubt it was a coincedence that Star Fox Adventures was so "bleh".  How would you feel if you had this original game in the works and then the bossman says "hey shoehorn in this existing franchise because we think it will sell better"?  This is no longer your creative work, it's just a product, and that comes across in the resulting game.

One thing I love about Super Mario Galaxy is that it feels like there was passion in the game design and why wouldn't there be?  This is the cutting edge for Mario.  It's trying a new way to do 3D Mario and pushing the whole 3D platformer genre forwad.  SMG2 is kind of cookie cutter but Nintendo said that it came about because of ideas for SMG1 that didn't fit.  I actually believe that because the sequel has much of the same passion.  NSMB Wii in comparison feels more like product.  It's good and polished but it doesn't push the genre at all.  It's a very safe game that seems like it was designed by executives.  The whole big unique element of it is the multiplayer and that actually feels sloppy like it was tossed in at the last minute because the suits demanded it be a four player game.

I want Nintendo to encourage creativity because it results in better games.  They still should have some corporate involvement because I don't expect them to make anything unmarketable.  They had this balance pretty good in pre-Iwata days.  On the N64 in particular it seems like every game was a go-for-broke ambitious title.  And they didn't go broke.  They don't have to be so safe.

I question how long Retro can stay motivated if they are just assigned IP by Nintendo.  They're clearly creative guys and that's why I want them to have the chance to fully explore that.  Getting to make major games like Metroid Prime still allows for a fair bit of creativity but making tracks for Mario Kart?  If you were just being brought in to help with someone else's game, eventually it would become "just a job" for you.  If Nintendo just lets their devs flex their creative muscles a bit more, they'll make better games.

AdrockMay 08, 2012

Quote from: Ian

The numerous Mario sports games are mere product.  They release them for a quick buck.

I don't really mind them since those are the games they wanted to make. They weren't different games that the developers presented to Nintendo and then Nintendo told them to put Mario in them. From the outset, Nintendo wanted sports games with Mario characters and themes in them. There's a distinct difference there. The game is built around the Mario franchise so creativity springs from it rather than trying to make something unrelated into a Mario game. And they're still fun. Mario Strikers is a super fun game.

My hope for Star Fox whether or not Retro Studios handles the game is that the Star Fox part is done flawlessly. It better be so amazing that it makes up for the shortcomings of Adventures, Assault, and Command combined. I don't think they really need to throw in ground missions that neither fit the series nor work as well as the actual on-rails part. It reminds me of how Sega kept coming up with reasons to slow Sonic down in 3D Sonic games when all anyone wants to do is run really fast. Games like Sonic Unleashed are full of filler. I'd hate to see that happen with Star Fox. If the next Star Fox title ends up being a 3 hour game that took a year to develop, so be it. Don't spend more time, money and resources making it a worse game. If it's the best damn Star Fox game ever, isn't that worth it artistically and monetarily? It could easily be a downloadable game which Nintendo sells for less because they spent less on development.

CericMay 09, 2012

I tend to find it liberating to be in a box.  If Nintendo told me today to make a new franchise I be easily overwhelmed.  If they instead told me to make a new Ice Climbers I have a rough framework for my creativity to latch on to and grow.

I personally hate when people come to me with solutions to implement make me nothing more then a factory worker putting a cog on a doo-hicky.  I much prefer people coming to me with a problem to be solved.

AdrockMay 09, 2012

I was under the impression that new game ideas (like movies) are typically pitched rather than commissioned. It would be overwhelming if Nintendo aske someone to create something new and different.  99% of the time, however, Iwata or whoever is likely just giving them the green/red light. Or they're making them turn a game that Kirby has no business being in into a Kirby game...

CericMay 09, 2012

Quote from: Adrock

I was under the impression that new game ideas (like movies) are typically pitched rather than commissioned. It would be overwhelming if Nintendo aske someone to create something new and different.  99% of the time, however, Iwata or whoever is likely just giving them the green/red light. Or they're making them turn a game that Kirby has no business being in into a Kirby game...

By my understanding Franchise games tend to be commissioned.

AdrockMay 09, 2012

Of course. I meant, as in a new IP. For example, a designer comes up with an idea for a new game that's not an established franchise, he would have to pitch it to the higher ups for approval. This happens far more often than the higher ups approaching the designer to come up with something brand new.

Ian SaneMay 09, 2012

These aren't independent devs making pitches to publishers though.  They're Nintendo staff.  Nintendo expects them to always be working on something so once their current project is done, they're going to talk with Nintendo about what their next project is going to be.  In some cases Nintendo might ask the dev for ideas but for something like a Mario sports game they're probably saying "make us a new Mario sports game".  There is no way Retro approached Nintendo with a pitch to work on Mario Kart tracks.  They were assigned that.  Silicon Knights was assigned to port MGS to the Gamecube.  Rare never asked to make a James Bond game, they were assigned the project by Nintendo and by some miracle came up with one of the greatest games ever.

What Nintendo can do to encourage creativity is to discuss with the devs what ideas they have and greenlight one of those instead of saying "you work on this!"

Luigi DudeMay 09, 2012

Quote from: Ian

These aren't independent devs making pitches to publishers though.  They're Nintendo staff.  Nintendo expects them to always be working on something so once their current project is done, they're going to talk with Nintendo about what their next project is going to be.  In some cases Nintendo might ask the dev for ideas but for something like a Mario sports game they're probably saying "make us a new Mario sports game".  There is no way Retro approached Nintendo with a pitch to work on Mario Kart tracks.  They were assigned that.  Silicon Knights was assigned to port MGS to the Gamecube.  Rare never asked to make a James Bond game, they were assigned the project by Nintendo and by some miracle came up with one of the greatest games ever.

What Nintendo can do to encourage creativity is to discuss with the devs what ideas they have and greenlight one of those instead of saying "you work on this!"

Only this isn't true at all.  Almost all the Mario Sports games are made by third parties who want to make the games.  This has been well documented in every interview possible.  Unlike what you think, a lot of studio's would love to use the Mario IP to make a game out of and actually contact Nintendo to use it.  The only Mario sports game that is made in house by Nintendo is Mario Kart which is why Mario Kart is the only Mario sports game that actually has a regular release on every console.  All the other Mario sports games appear whenever the third party studio who wants to make them feels like it.

Plus Retro's work on Mario Kart 7 just a small part of the company was used to help on that game while the rest is working on whatever the new Wii U game is, be it this rumored Star Fox or something else.  In the case of Donkey Kong Country Returns, Retro was asked if they wanted to work on a Donkey Kong game and they agreed.  Meaning they were given the choice if they wanted to do a Donkey Kong game or something else.  I'd imagine if they are indeed making a Star Fox game, they were given a choice if they wanted to do it.

Plus Silicon Knights was asked if they wanted to make the Metal Gear Solid remake and they happily agreed.  Just read the interview about that game and you'll see they were very excited to remake that game since many of the staff were huge fans.  And for Rare making James Bond, they were also very excited to make a James Bond game and most of the staff who made it publicly say they loved it.

Nintendo does give its developers choices and most of them are actually happy to work on the games they get.  Why else do you think Nintendo's been able to hold on to most of their top developers for the last 30 years, while other companies like Capcom, Konami and SquareEnix have lost almost all of their top developers over the years.

Well, usually when you ask a third-party development studio if they'd like to make something, I bet they'd answer yes 95% of the time. It's work and they've got bills to pay, and I'd like to think that Nintendo is a very dependable publisher to work with when it comes to them paying you development invoices.

Luigi DudeMay 09, 2012

Quote from: Kairon

Well, usually when you ask a third-party development studio if they'd like to make something, I bet they'd answer yes 95% of the time. It's work and they've got bills to pay, and I'd like to think that Nintendo is a very dependable publisher to work with when it comes to them paying you development invoices.

No, it's the third parties that contact Nintendo.  Dance Dance Revolution with Mario was made because Konami came to Nintendo with the idea.  Mario Hoops and Sports Mix were made because SquareEnix got the idea and came to Nintendo with it.  Mario and Sonic at the Olympics was Sega's idea and they asked for permission to use Mario.  Almost all the other Mario sports games are the same way.

See that's the thing, most Mario games are the result of a third party wanting to use the Mario IP in a game and asking Nintendo if they can make it.

Ian SaneMay 09, 2012

I know in my job when my boss asks me if I want to work on something and I don't want to I always tell him that.  Oh wait, I'm not unemployed so I don't do that.  I instead say "yes" to literally everything asked of me and feign enthusiasm if it's not really there.  Silicon Knights could have been "asked" if they wanted to work on My Little Pony and they would have said "yes" because, um, they want employment.

I know third parties will ask to make some Mario spin-off because that's easy money.  I'm not denying that that is a safe hit.  I'm just asking Nintendo to make more of a conscious effort to be less cookie cutter.  It's good longterm planning anyway.  Someday everyone will be sick of Mario and no one wil care.  It will happen.  Every successful franchise Nintendo has at some point started as something completely brand new.  They have to eventually create the big franchises of tomorrow and that won't happen if they focus to much on Mario.

Kytim89May 10, 2012

Please check this awesome Star Fox video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXLmDRwxAUU&feature=g-all-u

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