Topic: I hope "Secret Rings" doesn't suck...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Sega forgot to explain how Sonic boarded a rocket ship to run amongst the world of humans.

[Terranigma Freak]

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I guess I ranted too much to not make my point clear - Mario had significant changes in gameplay besides being in 3D when he made the dimensional jump. Sonic had some changes too but apparently fans think they're so much different and somehow made worse. My point is, were their transitions really that different?

I think you're asking the wrong question. Their transition is not different in anyway, but their core gameplay difference that made one successful while the other not so successful. In a 3D world, Mario is able to explore just like he always did in the 2D games. Now, the world is so full of life and secrets that you just can't help but feel amazed. I mean, I remember I was pissed off in the lava stage in Mario 64 and I wanted to kill Mario for fun. I kept jumping into the lava to burn his ass. While I was enjoying torturing Mario, I accidently sent him into the volcano. I thought my Mario tourturing fun had ended, only to find out I discovered a completely new area I've never seen before. I mean, 3D really mad it more mind blowing. Remember falling through the background in Mario 3 to get the power up (what is was escapes me right now)? That actually made sense so to speak. The game was flat and 2D, how could you ever think about slipping into the backgrounds. With the volcano, it was a mountain with a hole in it. It makes sense that there actually is something in there. I have only my stupidity to blame for not thinking about it earlier. With Mario 3, it just makes no sense at all. That is feeling of adventure, platforming and exploration in a Mario game.

Now we have Sonic who runs fast. Some of you want exploration, so of you want to just run really fast. It's almost like its fans can't decide on what they want. In a full 3D world, Sonic must be fast, and the speed plus 3D camera can cause problems, and I mean MUCH bigger problems than Mario 64. I mean, I'm sure you guys probably found yourself misjudging jumps in Mario 64 more often than in the 2D ones, right? Now imagine a character moving at 10 times the speed. If the world is vast an wide open, what is there for Sonic to do other than run really fast? You can explore, but exploration and speed doesn't mix very well. I mean, you honestly don't think that explorers in real life just run around really fun in a jungle to explore, or drive a F1 racer (to simulate the idea of speed and exploration) into a pyramid? Even with Sonic Adventure, I don't feel like there's much to explore. It still retains it's 2D roots mixing it with 3D in a bad way. While it's not totally on-rail, it also felt like you're just running on one set path. The game feels like it doesn't know what to do with it being in 3D (yet it duplicates the greatest flaw in Mario 64). If Sonic games were all like Secret Rings, is there a point in making Sonic 3D at all? Outside of polygons, Secret Rings can easily be done on Snes with mode 7 effects.

That's how I feel anyway, but his is coming from someone who's not a big Sonic fan and has only play Sonic Adventure on the DC for an hour or so.  

[Ceric]

Sega Need not Explain.

I'm going to draw my line in the sand.  I love Mario Sunshine and have No Real Love for Mario 64.  64DS is alright though.
Also while I'm making enemies NSMB is the red-headed step child to Super Mario Bros 3.  

I enjoyed the music and Sonic Adventure in general.  I'm looking forward to Onion ring and have no interest in any Sonic game that has the word "exploration" even loosely tied to it.  All the "exploring" I want to do is as I'm zipping past the pretty backgrounds.

[Smoke39]

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Originally posted by: Terranigma Freak
You can explore, but exploration and speed doesn't mix very well.

You're right.  The 2D Sonic games had the same problem.  It's an inherently broken franchise.

[Terranigma Freak]

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Originally posted by: Smoke39

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Originally posted by: Terranigma Freak
You can explore, but exploration and speed doesn't mix very well.

You're right.  The 2D Sonic games had the same problem.  It's an inherently broken franchise.

Ah, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. Even in 2D, I didn't really feel like exploring the levels, or that exploring felt like a pain in the ass in Sonic games.

Also, I I would laugh my ass off if Sonic made it into SSBB with a 3D Sonic adventure mode that rocked. Then all Sonic fans would be clamoring more Sonic gameplay like that 1 level in SSBB.

 

[segagamer12]

I still have the original Sega Visions magazie where the interviewed Soncis creator. I love that old magazine to death.

I wont get all lovey dovie defending sega for no reaons here but I will say what i like about Sonic Adventure out weighs what i disliek so I still like the series. Personalyl I LOVE sonic, more than mario, always have always will. SO for me if SOnic is in it its a game worth trying out. I hate the spinn ofss just liek I hate Mario spin offs, for me Mario, and Sonic, had a special quality about them story wise and I hate it when they toss that out the window and go for real worl feel. I like Mrio Kart to some degree but hate the premise for the most part.

the NES Mario and Mario World games had a certain degree of magic that mostly all of the latter games have been lacking as far as I am concerned, they veered too much from the originals to be true to what I liked about them. NSMB fixed a lot of that and had enough nastalgia to make it fun and excitng but still retro and new at the same time.

Sonic has always maintained true to its roots story wise, so for me that is pretty improtant, the charcaters, the motives, everything remians pretty well intact. Sonic Adventure isnt on the same level of fun as SOnci 1 or 2, 2 being my favorite, but it was still fun.

I agree with jon here with N64 As I missed a lot of the elements that made Mario games Mario game, and a huge aprt of why I HATED sunshine But I still had fun playing Mario 64 so the stuff thatw as misisng got forgotten soon enough.

With Sonic 3d I never understood the complaints either, you still run around as fast as ever, there is no slow down. I dont get it they Genesisi sonics were far slower paced then the 3D ones so that argument does not fly with me.

HOWEVER i can understand that people have a certain fondness for things that they dont liek to see them changed. ANd I agree I hated all the non sonic levels except Tails and Knuckles, as they were two of my favrotie charcaters and knuckles even got to star in two of his very own games whihc I also liked.

I can see the slow down complain as far as 3d blast goes because that game (on genesis) sucked, but it made up for its suckiness on Saturn.

DC Sonic was cool and fun and had all the same attitude, music, feel, speed and everything that made sonic cool. My biggest complains were the voice actinng and the choppyness and bad camera movements, but they were somehwat improved over mario 64 crappy camera movements so I didnt complain too much.

I may be alone in the world but i havent noticed a real lack in quality over the old games, I had fun playing every one I have played, but I am the kid of ghamer who doesnt change what i play that often, I will always pick up a Sonic game over a Crash whatsits name or Mario over racthet and doohicky.


But I can see the people who dont like it view piont but I dont get how they go so far as to say its total crap and not worht playing.  

[IceCold]

Mario 64 made your dreams come true. The first time I jumped through a painting was just.. amazing.

[Artimus]

The major thing Super Mario 64 got right is what Ian said: jumping. BUT, it also captured the same spirit as the older games. The fun factor was the same (and it remains one of the only collection plat formers that isn't tedious). Sonic somehow got confused for an epic and they tried to make it grand and big. The fact that it was an incredibly shallow universe didn't dawn on them. They actually thought there was more to the games than going fast. And as such the 3D games don't really have anything to do with the 2D games.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane

Though if Galaxy is as "bad" as Sunshine there will probably be backlash for Mario too.

Gosh I sure hope it is as "bad" as Super Mario Sunshine because I love that game!

[Terranigma Freak]

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They actually thought there was more to the games than going fast. And as such the 3D games don't really have anything to do with the 2D games.

You know, when I first played Sonic Adventure on the DC, I died during the "loop" because I didn't hold the control stick thinking it'll automatically happen. The game felt it like played itself sometimes and that I didn't have to do anything.

[segagamer12]

I think people tend ot forget that Sonic Adventure isnt an action game its an ADVENTURE game as was designed that way, it has story elements and exploration, it wasnt meant to be a fst paced non stop action game, and thast aprt of what makes it cool is they ad more depth to the games. I agree I think Sega needs to make a back tot he basics fast paced action games, but I dont rag on the adventure gaems for not being fast apced or action enough, but then again they have ploenty of fast paced action too and they seam to keep the heart rate up until you get past the

three good charcters.

[Nick DiMola]

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Originally posted by: segagamer12
I think people tend to forget that Sonic Adventure isn't an action game it's an ADVENTURE game and was designed that way...

Right there is the exact problem. Every good Sonic game ever made was a fast paced, non-stop action game with some very light exploration (i.e. - Alternate Routes and Hidden Big Rings). Sonic Adventure was by no means terrible. For the most part it was a decent Sonic 3D transition but it wasn't nearly as ground-breaking as the originals. Since then Sonic in 3D has always been awkward. I wish they would just stick to 2D because that's where it is done right. It's like Castlevania, 3D is ok but 2D is where the series really shines (Though I guess both truly have potential to be amazing 3D games if they were done right, but that point is moot).

[Smash_Brother]

I think Sonic will work in 3D if they simply bring the same formula from the 2D games into 3D: multiple branching speed paths with a light focus on exploration and puzzles.

The SONIC levels of the SA games were generally very good. If they would just make an entire game of THOSE, I have a feeling the game itself would be excellent.

[segagamer12]

or if they just kept it Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, everyone else must go. Ok I liked Shadow also so he can stay but he shouldn't be playable. And I jsut rememebred in SA2 they screwed up the Spin dash and that was a major no-no. Now that I think about it I liked SA and Heros a lot more than SA2. But I still can't beleive they actually got me into those chao thingies.  

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
The SONIC levels of the SA games were generally very good. If they would just make an entire game of THOSE, I have a feeling the game itself would be excellent.

Guess what?  They managed to even butcher those in Sonic 360!

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Guess what?  They managed to even butcher those in Sonic 360!

Point made.

But it's true that a different dev house is making SR, right?

[segagamer12]

has anyone played Sonic 360 or are they just going by hear say? just curious because I still think it looks cool.  

[Smash_Brother]

Cap has played it and immediately returned it and demanded his money back.

[Bill Aurion]

I played it at Game Crazy and it was pure crap on a stick...I couldn't name a SINGLE positive thing about it, besides you know, the fact that I could walk away with my SOUL...

[Mario]

You were one of the lucky ones then.

[capamerica]

Ya I did play Sonic Next Gen, and trust me it was bad. Did you ever play Sonic DX? Remember how bad the controls were and how buggy the game was? Well times that by 100x and you get Sonic Next Gen. The controls were near unplayable, it was so easy to jump and fall to your death. The camera was very poor and I found myself dyeing cause of it. I gave up on the game once I hit the level were I was put on a straight path and Sonic was moving on his own, all I had to do was love Sonic left and right and jump but the controls to do that were so bad I could never finish the level. I kept hitting stuff and losing all my rings or getting stuck behind rocks or other random crap. The game was very beautiful looking but was nearly unplayable due to the bugs, cruddy camera and sh!tty controls.

I own almost all the Sonic games that have been released, including Sonic DX, Sonic Riders and Sonic Heroes but after playing Sonic Next Gen for 3 hours I decided to return it the next day. I took the store credit for it and bought Tomb Raider for the GameCube

[Caterkiller]

I have voiced my opinion a million times over about how much I am hating the current state of Sonic.  I am very very happy that Sonic 360 sold terribly, maybe Sonic Team will wake up, but most likely thats just the best they could do. Secret of the Rings, has me a bit excited, only because of the impressions at E3. But then again, there were decent impressions of Sonic Heroes as well. It's such a shame that Sonic has fallen so far, it really is.

All we need is Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails on the roster. Big wide roads to run on, so we don't die every second, a decent camera, no bugs, the ability to build momentum as we run so a loop doesn't feel so fixed, and different commands on different buttons. With all that you can add in stages that are fast and allow you to perform tricks off of everything, so it feels like your constantly moving and you have one grade A Sonic game.

This is truely the final straw for me, I thought shadow was, but im giving Sonic one more chance. If Secret of the Rings doesn't cut the mustard, I will just pretend Sonic doesn't exist, and I will no longer be known as Caterkiller(its the name of one of Sonic's earliest robot enemies).


I wan't Nintendo to make a 3D Sonic! I really really really do!

[Smash_Brother]

I never even played Shadow. I saw Shadow holding a gun in the trailers and immediately boycotted the game.

I was a Sega kid so I absolutely loved Sonic but I've watched him slowly sink into despair.

I swear, it would be like watching Mario games gradually get worse and worse until each game consisted a bad anime storyline with levels where you play as Peach for treasure hunting and as Toad in some kind of mech, all the while wishing you could be playing as Mario.

It's strange that I'm GLAD SR is being developed by a different dev house...

[IceCold]

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It's strange that I'm GLAD SR is being developed by a different dev house...

Why do I keep hearing this? It's true that Sonic Rush was developed by Dimps, but Secret Rings is definitely from the Sonic Team..

[Smash_Brother]

It was said earlier in this thread that it was made by a different dev house, or so I thought...