Topic: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Shift Key
P.S. In regards to the bias thing, I was more referring to people like Smash who attack MS on everything, with individuals like that it makes it hard to take their opinion as anything BUT hatred toward X company when it comes to preference.

I attack them for 2 reasons:

1. Because I used to make a living troubleshooting their OSes and will never forget what a horrible time I had doing it.

2. Every time I've set a relative up with a windows machine, it has been NOTHING but problems whereas OSX machines just quietly do their job unless someone spills a soda on it.

I don't know what other "prerequisites" for MS hatred I need to have other than that. I've been knee-deep in the pile of ass they call windows: it's the most worthless, convoluted, bloated and inexcusable piece of software I've ever seen in my life.

Point of fact: when MS is dominating an industry, the quality of their output goes right through the FLOOR. I've seen this time and time again as each iteration of windows is even less secure and usable than the last.

If the Xbox is a good franchise, it's because MS is in the "wooing" state with the gaming industry right now. It's the business equivalent of dating someone who is all nice, sweet and loving but that's only because you're not a sure thing...yet. Once you're married (aka. the industry is dominated) they stop giving a damn and you get asstacular products that ship with thousands of known bugs and security holes.

What more do you expect to justify my dislike of them?  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

98SE ftw

[Shecky]

GoldenPhoenix: Please note that your choice of words are poor in this thread.  What you have said are statements that read as facts, yet are false and have mixed those with your own opinions.  When folks have been trying to address those former statements, you seem to take it as an attack on your opinion and rise to defend it, and in said defense insert additional statements of fact or comments on other forum users which provoke more responses.

I think we've finally come to a point were we have isolated your opinion... which is Windows suites you well and in your experiences you have not had any major issues.  No one has issue with that, just please stop trying to talk about Linux!

That is all.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky
GoldenPhoenix: Please note that your choice of words are poor in this thread.  What you have said are statements that read as facts, yet are false and have mixed those with your own opinions.  When folks have been trying to address those former statements, you seem to take it as an attack on your opinion and rise to defend it, and in said defense insert additional statements of fact or comments on other forum users which provoke more responses.

I think we've finally come to a point were we have isolated your opinion... which is Windows suites you well and in your experiences you have not had any major issues.  No one has issue with that, just please stop trying to talk about Linux!

That is all.

I need to look no further than Shift's comments which are attacks, not everyone hates Windows either. Some have had experiences with both and prefer Windows, that is A FACT as well. If you are going to accuse me of attacking opinions, maybe you should talk to Shift instead of singling me out (though I feel that is because I actually like windows). The point of my posts is to actually stick up for those us that, gasp, actually like Windows. Regardless, please tell me where I stated my opinion as fact? The only areas I recall are:

1. Linux has the luxury of not being nearly the worth the time as windows when it comes to the creation of viruses and it may contribute to its stability (Hence the MAY, that is not a statement of fact)
2. It is common sense to try and protect your computer as much as possible with programs other than the OS, no matter how dependable they may be. It doesn't hurt.
3. I've been happy with Windows and have had hardly any major problems
4. Both Linux and Windows have positive and negative aspects
5. There is no point to switch to Linux when I've had nothing but good experiences with Windows  
6. It is always suspicious to me when people attack MS or any large company and support a smaller company.  

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't really think people hate Windows so much as they prefer something else to it. I can understand that because Windows has a monopoly and virtually every PC you buy has it on it pre-installed, so people just use that and don't bother trying anything else, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there.

We discussed stability and ease of use, but what about cost? $400 for the best version of Vista is not a good price... yes, it may seem cheap when you buy a PC and it comes with it, but it isn't free. Having it pre-installed adds a great deal to the cost, and I think other than the monitor Windows is the most expensive part of a manufactured PC.

I also like how virtually every piece of software on Linux costs nothing. I don't need to spend a ton of money on office software, or financial software, or anything because Linux pretty much fills every niche with free programs that are easy to install. I would really argue that they are much easier to install than on Windows, too. I just load up Synaptic and pu a check near the software I want, then click the install button and it automatically downloads and installs it for me.

Can Windows really do that? It can with IE and Media player and some other things, but can you download and install graphics editors or word processors to windows with one button click? I don't think so, so maybe Windows is actually the harder system to use. It certainly is far more expensive. Why spend money for Norton when there is free antivirus software like ClamAV? Linux saves you money.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
I don't really think people hate Windows so much as they prefer something else to it. I can understand that because Windows has a monopoly and virtually every PC you buy has it on it pre-installed, so people just use that and don't bother trying anything else, but that doesn't mean there isn't something better out there.

We discussed stability and ease of use, but what about cost? $400 for the best version of Vista is not a good price... yes, it may seem cheap when you buy a PC and it comes with it, but it isn't free. Having it pre-installed adds a great deal to the cost, and I think other than the monitor Windows is the most expensive part of a manufactured PC.

I also like how virtually every piece of software on Linux costs nothing. I don't need to spend a ton of money on office software, or financial software, or anything because Linux pretty much fills every niche with free programs that are easy to install. I would really argue that they are much easier to install than on Windows, too. I just load up Synaptic and pu a check near the software I want, then click the install button and it automatically downloads and installs it for me.

Can Windows really do that? It can with IE and Media player and some other things, but can you download and install graphics editors or word processors to windows with one button click? I don't think so, so maybe Windows is actually the harder system to use. It certainly is far more expensive. Why spend money for Norton when there is free antivirus software like ClamAV? Linux saves you money.

Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$? Regardless I do respect your opinion, it is well presented without being rude, and it is someone like you that would actually make me think of trying Linux in the future. In regards to the free virus software, I have tried them in the past but I do prefer the more user friendly stuff like Norton 360, but I am always up to try new software if it is better and ease of use is the same. Doubt I'll ever switch from Office though, I've become pretty efficient in things like Excel and Word (I especially love Office 2007's interface and ease of use, not to mention what you can do with it).

Anyway correct me if I'm wrong but this Windows vs Linux thing boils down to this:

-Windows more user friendly but less stable and secure.
-Linux more complex to use but more secure/stable

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?

I say it's just as bad as Microsoft spending $50 million dollars on exclusive GTA4 content! (back on topic!!)

[ShyGuy]

As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.

Lol, though you have to admit sometimes it is the people not the technology that is messed up. . We've dealt with many IT issues at the company I'm interning for and some people have some really silly problems!

[UERD]

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Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?

Then I want to know what school you go to, because Vista with the student discounts cost me $100+ (plus another ~$170 to get the Ultimate version), while Office cost me more than $150.  

One thing I wish MS did was make their boxed OS licenses multi-unit licenses- for example, Windows Vista comes with 2 CDs and can be installed onto 3 computers at home, much like Office. MS wouldn't lose any significant amount of money because their OSes are mostly bundled with new machines (and that would stay 1 machine to 1 OS), and it would make upgrading comps at home a lot easier (especially as households tend to have multiple machines).

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: UERD

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Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?

Then I want to know what school you go to, because Vista with the student discounts cost me $100+ (plus another ~$170 to get the Ultimate version), while Office cost me more than $150.  

One thing I wish MS did was make their boxed OS licenses multi-unit licenses- for example, Windows Vista comes with 2 CDs and can be installed onto 3 computers at home, much like Office. MS wouldn't lose any significant amount of money because their OSes are mostly bundled with new machines (and that would stay 1 machine to 1 OS), and it would make upgrading comps at home a lot easier (especially as households tend to have multiple machines).

Well I go to a private university so things are probably different, I think 20$ is the most we pay for MS licensed software.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.

Lol, though you have to admit sometimes it is the people not the technology that is messed up. . We've dealt with many IT issues at the company I'm interning for and some people have some really silly problems!

Isn't the company you've been interning for Microsoft? Or was that just a mentor relationship with someone from there?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
As someone who has been in IT for eleven years, I can say I hate all technology with a deep and unbridled passion.

Lol, though you have to admit sometimes it is the people not the technology that is messed up. . We've dealt with many IT issues at the company I'm interning for and some people have some really silly problems!

Isn't the company you've been interning for Microsoft? Or was that just a mentor relationship with someone from there?

That was a mentorship, I have never worked for them.

[SixthAngel]

Microsoft never stopped showing their true colors, they just hid it with marketing and money.  Did anyone here forget the absolutely horrible failure rate of the 360?  You talk about their bad OS is but somehow forget that the product they have out for gaming already is really bad.  I read something the other day that had a retailer estimate it at 30%.  One said that there is a fundamental problem that they all still have, making is just a matter of time until they fail.  I will try to find the link but the problems are obviously still there and don't seem to be disappearing.

I get the feeling the only reason the failure rates haven't exploded with more mainstream media attention is because Microsoft is paying money, hiding the information, and throwing every PR guy they can at the problem just to keep it to the dull roar it is now.  Even the internet articles I saw had an immediate page long PR guy respond in the very first post.  I also still think they are using the amount of replacement boxes to pad their sales numbers so it doesn't look so pathetic.

If they are willing to pay $50 million just to get GTA exclusive content how much do you think they would pay and are paying to hide this kind of thing?

[IceCold]

Damn stupid operating system jargon..

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Microsoft never stopped showing their true colors, they just hid it with marketing and money.  Did anyone here forget the absolutely horrible failure rate of the 360?  You talk about their bad OS is but somehow forget that the product they have out for gaming already is really bad.  I read something the other day that had a retailer estimate it at 30%.  One said that there is a fundamental problem that they all still have, making is just a matter of time until they fail.  I will try to find the link but the problems are obviously still there and don't seem to be disappearing.

I get the feeling the only reason the failure rates haven't exploded with more mainstream media attention is because Microsoft is paying money, hiding the information, and throwing every PR guy they can at the problem just to keep it to the dull roar it is now.  Even the internet articles I saw had an immediate page long PR guy respond in the very first post.  I also still think they are using the amount of replacement boxes to pad their sales numbers so it doesn't look so pathetic.

If they are willing to pay $50 million just to get GTA exclusive content how much do you think they would pay and are paying to hide this kind of thing?

That is a bit silly, if you recall all the DVD based systems have had alot of failure rates around launch. The PS2 had a big problem with it back in the beginning (Especially overheating), even the GC had a problem (Xbox did as well). Even this generation the Wii has had problems with the system being bricked or overheating. Sony has been having a really tough time as well and personally I think the reason why PS3 and Xbox 360 are having problems is that they are such complex systems alot can go wrong, heck when you need the fans they have things are bound to happen, especially when you throw HDs in the mix.

[SixthAngel]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That is a bit silly, if you recall all the DVD based systems have had alot of failure rates around launch. The PS2 had a big problem with it back in the beginning (Especially overheating), even the GC had a problem (Xbox did as well). Even this generation the Wii has had problems with the system being bricked or overheating. Sony has been having a really tough time as well and personally I think the reason why PS3 and Xbox 360 are having problems is that they are such complex systems alot can go wrong, heck when you need the fans they have things are bound to happen, especially when you throw HDs in the mix.

Bringing up minor problems that the other new systems have is just a distraction from the much higher failure rate of the 360.  I don't see Nintendo, or Sony reps for that matter, dodging question after question after question about the failure rate of their systems.  The 360 problems seem to go well beyond a few bad eggs turning up at launch (and they turned up far more often then the competition's).

[Ceric]

What the thing that GP's school has is caller the Microsoft Academic Alliance MSDN subscription.  It is really sweet.  Its by department but its like $500 a year and you get pretty much all the copies of the OS's that you want plus it allows for the Students to each have a copy of the OS.  Not to mention Visual Studio and like.  The downside is that Office isn't included.  The $20 is just the media cost because you already have a license.   Its really cool and I encourage every Computer Science department to take advantage of it and other departments to look into it.

I also like to say I was really sad the day when Microsoft caved and gave third parties access to the kernel.  I was also realy really annoyed at big antivirus/security developers leading the charge to get access because "they couldn't prevent hackers from doing so without it."  My response: If a Hacker could get access to the kernel then you can to.   Plus the experience will make it easier for you to know what to look for...  I lost most little respect I had for companies like Symantec.

[Mashiro]

I will never forget working t Toys R Us when the original Xbox launched. The in store system within the first two months had to be replaced 6(!!!) times.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That is a bit silly, if you recall all the DVD based systems have had alot of failure rates around launch. The PS2 had a big problem with it back in the beginning (Especially overheating), even the GC had a problem (Xbox did as well). Even this generation the Wii has had problems with the system being bricked or overheating. Sony has been having a really tough time as well and personally I think the reason why PS3 and Xbox 360 are having problems is that they are such complex systems alot can go wrong, heck when you need the fans they have things are bound to happen, especially when you throw HDs in the mix.

Bringing up minor problems that the other new systems have is just a distraction from the much higher failure rate of the 360.  I don't see Nintendo, or Sony reps for that matter, dodging question after question after question about the failure rate of their systems.  The 360 problems seem to go well beyond a few bad eggs turning up at launch (and they turned up far more often then the competition's).

I don't consider systems bricking, overheating to the point of not working, or dieing  to be minor problems. All the companies dodge the failure rates (though you would be have a tough time proving they are since you can't go by anecdotal evidence), do you recall the NDS Lite cracked hinge problem? Nintendo dodged that like crazy until they finally gave in. What are your sources to back up your comments that the 360 had more problems than the competition?  

[Kairon]

I think it's best to take the XBox 360's hardware issues in stride, (aka parody songs).

At least MS had the decency of extending their warranty to the standard year long thing. I wonder if maybe these problems had to do with them pushing the 360 out the door as soon as possible... but the silver bullet of 65nm technology and accompanying redesign might sweep these problems all away, along with offering a lower price.

Gauging by what the internet has told me, the fact that these problems do exist is worrying, but what's more astounding is that people are actually playing even with their 3rd or 4th Xbox 360's, even after all these difficulties. Are hardcore gamers immune to hardware problem concerns?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I think it's best to take the XBox 360's hardware issues in stride, (aka parody songs).

At least MS had the decency of extending their warranty to the standard year long thing. I wonder if maybe these problems had to do with them pushing the 360 out the door as soon as possible... but the silver bullet of 65nm technology and accompanying redesign might sweep these problems all away, along with offering a lower price.

Gauging by what the internet has told me, the fact that these problems do exist is worrying, but what's more astounding is that people are actually playing even with their 3rd or 4th Xbox 360's, even after all these difficulties. Are hardcore gamers immune to hardware problem concerns?

The only problem I've had with my Xbox 360 is the harddrive dieing but MS quickly replaced it.  

[Athrun Zala]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Ah but what if you get Vista for 20$ at school and MS Office 2007 for 10$?

Vista is not even worth torrenting right now, sure as hell won't pay even $20 for it...

and regarding Windows "stability", yesterday, while I was programming in C# (originally developed by MS), using the .NET Framework (created and maintained by MS), and running Windows XP, I got NO LESS THAN FIVE BSODs...

oh, and Linux, with GNOME and KDE, is pretty easy to use now...  

[Blue Plant]

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Originally posted by: Kairon

At least MS had the decency of extending their warranty to the standard year long thing.

Heh heh, Microsoft?  Decency?  Or face a(nother?) class-action lawsuit.

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Gauging by what the internet has told me, the fact that these problems do exist is worrying, but what's more astounding is that people are actually playing even with their 3rd or 4th Xbox 360's, even after all these difficulties. Are hardcore gamers immune to hardware problem concerns?

I imagine after investing all the money that they've spent on games, giving up on the console itself would be scarier than ridding themselves of that nuisance.

[SixthAngel]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I don't consider systems bricking, overheating to the point of not working, or dieing  to be minor problems. All the companies dodge the failure rates (though you would be have a tough time proving they are since you can't go by anecdotal evidence), do you recall the NDS Lite cracked hinge problem? Nintendo dodged that like crazy until they finally gave in. What are your sources to back up your comments that the 360 had more problems than the competition?

They are minor problems because they affect such a small number of users.  I did a google search and grabbed the most recent article on the first page.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php

A quote from says 'A Sydney retailer said "Out the Nintendo Wii, the PS3 and the Xbox 360 the Microsoft product is the only one that we have had constant problems with. In fact when we sell the Xbox 360 we tell customers to contact Microsoft if they "Ever have a problem".'

Even if you say that the internet makes the problem seem bigger why don't the other systems have just as many complaints?  The internet should be making problems for all systems appear larger yet the 360 problems still stand high above the others.  The machine was poorly designed, not much more to say.