Topic: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.

[Patchkid15]

Vista is horrible. I just added it to my computer this past Monday. Already last night at 7:00 PM i start it up and it sais No Operating System. I had been using vista already so it was installed correctly. So i would just like to say Vista Breaks Computers.

[Chozo Ghost]

Linux's main problem is that there are a zillion distributions of it and most are incompatible with the others... that's why driver support and commercial software hasn't made much inroads on it yet.

The only major advantage to Windows over Linux these days is that developers can design a game or a driver for Vista, and they can be confident it will work on all copies of Vista in existence, everywhere. Creating a driver or a game for Linux involves a lot more work to ensure it will work with the zillion distros out there..... and that's what is hurting Linux's growth.

However, if you use generic hardware and don't use your pc for gaming then Linux beats Windows in every conceivable way. It is far more secure and stable than Windows, and should an exploit ever be found it is quickly patched, whereas with Windows that may take a week or more. It gives you freedom, and best of all is that it costs nothing.

I think Microsoft realized that their OS's only real advantage over Linux or Mac was in the realm of gaming, and that's probably why they are pushing Vista and DX10 in order to keep that monopoly going.

[Ceric]

MS is trying to go to the more root model.  Its doing this with pop-ups like, gasp, OSX.  Its just more noticeable because most regular Windows users won't touch a command line, a real shame.  So what do most users do now?  They disable this security and use admin privileged users for day to day work as well.  You know from my experience this is not just a Windows thing as well.  All my friends who regularly use OSX and are die hard mac people do the same thing to it.  For all intents and purpose they run there machines as Admins which pretty much means they don't have to use root to do anything.  The only system that this model seems to not just get circumvented is Linux and other *nixs.  OS's where people aren't afraid of the command line.  The user doesn't want to be bother by things like authorization or logging into a higher level account temporarily to do things like install programs or make dangerous system changes.

Also you can tell IE7 in Vista, and I beleive its this way by default, to be in a sandbox mode where any changes that software make is done to a sort of copy of your system that goes away after the IE session is gone.  Though I'm sure most people will disable that as well.

People want security with no interaction.  You can't do that with a fully featured machine.  You will always have to trade Security for Useability amd vice versa.  

[Spak-Spang]

How?  Why? Did this thread get taken over by operating system talk.


I will say this.  Microsoft may not be the best company for gaming...but it isn't the worst.  I really don't think it is fair to blame all the problems of PC gaming on Microsoft.  There are several issues to why PC gaming just isn't as intuitive as console gaming...and never will be.  

I also do think it is fair to say Microsoft hasn't done anything good for gaming, because Xbox Live is simply brilliant.  It has created a great community of gamers to talk to, play online games with, and even a rewards system to finish your games or accomplish specific ingame tasks.  These achievement points help replay value of games and promote a social status in the community of Xbox Live.  

The system isn't flashy but it works great.  On top of that, the Xbox 360 does have quite a few really great games out right now.  Sure, at the moment they are geared more towards western audiences, but that is simply because Japan and other countries are very hard to crack and Microsoft's XBox so far appeals more to Western gamers...but that isn't that bad.  

Right now the Wii I would say mostly appeal to Japanese market, or nongamer market, but I am not critical of that fact.

I do understand that Microsoft is using gaming to create an open into your living room.  But, I must ask is really such a horrible evil idea?  As long as Microsoft and third parties can continue to create great games that people want to play then why not have that system also supply your DVR needs?  Or play your DVD/HD movies?  It means less clutter in your house.  And yeah, you may not get the very best HD-DVD player, but at least you have one.

And if you haven't noticed Nintendo has been pushing into the same realm as Microsoft and Sony, they just haven't been talking about it.  Internet Channel, Weather Channel, News Channel, Download Channel, Everyone Votes Channel...these are nongamer applications, that help promote the Wii as more than a gaming device.  

We are just forgiving Nintendo because we know Nintendo is all about the games from their track record.  

But you know, what happens if Nintendo decides to release a $100-150 hard drive for the Wii.  The huge selling point is that it can hook up to your cable, and a DVR channel for your Wii is created.  And new downloadable games are finally available in the Virtual Console, and we can finally have the part of that 512 storage as virtual RAM to make our games better?  Would we all be critizing Nintendo for those bold moves, or would be calling Nintendo visionaries because they got a gaming system into the mass market, and still are focusing on the games?

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric People want security with no interaction.  You can't do that with a fully featured machine.  You will always have to trade Security for Useability amd vice versa.

Security is booting windows on your intel Mac where you can zap the entire windows partition and just reinstall your games any time you want because you don't do work on windows anyway.

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric People want security with no interaction.  You can't do that with a fully featured machine.  You will always have to trade Security for Useability amd vice versa.

Security is booting windows on your intel Mac where you can zap the entire windows partition and just reinstall your games any time you want because you don't do work on windows anyway.

If we take that to the logical extreme then why not just boot up a Virtual Server and run all your OS's that why and be done with it? (We are actually getting a blade server for just that at Tech.)

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
If we take that to the logical extreme then why not just boot up a Virtual Server and run all your OS's that why and be done with it? (We are actually getting a blade server for just that at Tech.)

Because windows installations have the propensity to succumb to entropy whereas OSX does not.

Dammit, we've sidetracked the hell out of this thread...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Good job.

[Spak-Spang]

Quick re-read my post on the previous page...I tried to get us back on topic, by throwing more contraversy on the fire.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shecky

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.

Heh, so you find Windows to be a solid operating system once enough bandaids are applied

Actually it is common sense to get system protection programs from companies that specialize in a specific area, I've found them to be far more dependable because their business rides on things like firewalls/virus protection and various other security features.

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
How?  Why? Did this thread get taken over by operating system talk.

I probably had a bit to do with it. But anyway:

Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
Linux's main problem is that there are a zillion distributions of it and most are incompatible with the others... that's why driver support and commercial software hasn't made much inroads on it yet.

They are compatible. They share the same code base (kernel and tools) and differ mostly in the way that applications are installed. The driver issue is centred around hardware manufacturers not offering Linux drivers or hardware specifications and forcing users to reverse engineer the drivers in order to use the hardware.

As for commercial software, there's a metric ton of free applications out there that are designed for Linux.

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
I do understand that Microsoft is using gaming to create an open into your living room.  But, I must ask is really such a horrible evil idea?  As long as Microsoft and third parties can continue to create great games that people want to play then why not have that system also supply your DVR needs?  Or play your DVD/HD movies?  It means less clutter in your house.  And yeah, you may not get the very best HD-DVD player, but at least you have one.

Right now there are a lot of invasive measures put on any sort of DVR that can be purchased. This is because content providers want to control the content on your DVR. TV shows, movies, music. If you've purchased it, then although you have purchased it then your freedom to do whatever you want with it is being limited. Call it DRM, call it content flags. Whatever name it is, it is a draconian system. Vista gave hints of this future in its multimedia capabilities - not sure if things have changed but it would degrade the video quality if the source of the video was not an approved provider. It even did this to DVDs.

So colour me skeptical about the idea of an all-in-one entertainment unit powered by a Microsoft OS.

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
But you know, what happens if Nintendo decides to release a $100-150 hard drive for the Wii.  The huge selling point is that it can hook up to your cable, and a DVR channel for your Wii is created.  And new downloadable games are finally available in the Virtual Console, and we can finally have the part of that 512 storage as virtual RAM to make our games better?  Would we all be critizing Nintendo for those bold moves, or would be calling Nintendo visionaries because they got a gaming system into the mass market, and still are focusing on the games?

They're just gimmicks compared to the ability to stream movies from a networked Windows PC such as Media Centre or Vista.

I would be critical of Nintendo if they went down this path of "centre of the living room" that Microsoft and Sony are heading because it goes against their goal for the Wii which is a games system. Sure, bigger hard drives allow you to do things like store music or files, but when Nintendo starts offering TV shows through the Download Channel or micro-transactions to unlock cheat codes in a game, then I'll grab a pitchfork.

There's a huge difference between the Wii's online and the Xbox's online service. Even with the addition of a hard drive they are still very different.

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Actually it is common sense to get system protection programs from companies that specialize in a specific area, I've found them to be far more dependable because their business rides on things like firewalls/virus protection and various other security features.

Just because its such a nice bandaid program doesn't mean that you ignore the problem that you're patching up.

[that Baby guy]

You know, I think Nintendo should allow a third party the ability to create unique media center devices to append to the Wii.  Like the Q, but instead of it being built in, whatever company, say, Panasonic, could offer said devices to order, creating a simple direct-screen interface.  It would work well, as most people I know think there are too many buttons on a DVD/DVR remote.  Included in one package could be a hard drive, PC streaming capabilities, and a direct cable connection.

The thing is, it would need to be marketed as an unnecessary enhancement for the Wii for Nintendo's sake, and I can't see that happening.  Not only that, but Nintendo doesn't want or need to be responsible for hardware or firmware issues in a situation like this.  For this to happen, the rights to do this would need to be sold for cheap, but with a very enforcing contract, and once again, I don't think any company would want to get in a location like this.  I could be wrong, though.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I really think you guys bashing MS should get a life, there are common sense CHEAP fixes for most of the problems and yet you still complain. I don't care if you have Linux or Windows you should always take extra steps to prevent problems. Both OSs have security problems, neither is perfect, and Linux does have the luxury of not being as readily available as Windows because the focus of hackers is more on Windows. What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).

How dare I impart my knowledge on this situation because I may have some knowledge about operating systems!

I'm not going into a tirade about the faults of Windows in this thread, since you feel that anyone's opinion that differs from yours should not be heard.

PS: I direct you to two articles

1. Red Hat Enterprise Linux gets the top security certification available to an operating system by the National Information Assurance Partnership (NIAP).
Source

2. Microsoft claims Linux infringes on 235 of its patents
Source

You may not take it seriously, but people in the industry (Microsoft included) are sitting up and taking notice.

[Shecky]

Vouching for Shift Key's posts... I agree with them, especially the DRM'ed Vista, which as far as I can tell seems to be the main reason for it's release.... (ie: buddy of mine at work came running in asking me to burn a copy of Western Digital Drive Tools onto CD, because he couldn't do it on Vista - it was giving him a DRM error message that he had no rights to burn it ... ).  Software patents are out of control....

I think a lot of people have been conditioned (Thanks Bill!) to be complacent with a lot of issues that come with the Windows way of life.  They've grown up with it... they've gotten use to dealing with it, and they're familiar with the interface (only having to relearn where they moved all the functions every time a new release comes out ).  So they think, "What's the big deal?"

Shift Key and I are not trying to bash Microsoft, rather we were trying to educate just a little bit on the world of operating systems.  I don't use *nix because I hate MS, although you seem to hate *nix and anyone who brings it up.  I'm not heartbroken that you use Windows, why should I be?

My original post on this thread was in response to "Windows is a solid operating system", a fairly strong statement to which I questioned "compared to what...." by asking what OS you have tried.  Now it's apparent that you haven't tried anything else, and don't really want to ... which is fine.  However, please refrain from accusing those who have of being biased.

[Spak-Spang]

Shift Key:  I respect you for being consistent.  But I know several people would not be consistent in their opinions if it was Nintendo doing it...mostly because they would trust Nintendo not to screw us, but they don't have the same faith in Microsoft.


Shecky:  The DRM thing sucks, but what did you expect business to do.  For years now, software, music, movies, anything digital is being stolen from these companies with no regard for what it is costing that business.  There is always an excuse.  "I am using it for school."  "I bought the program once, why can't I have it on both computers." "Hey, they make their money from the corporations buying it anyway."  "It is just too expensive for the common user...and I need it."  

Something had to be done.  This may not be the right solution, but unfortunately it is the solution we got.

[Ceric]

I have to agree with Spak-Spang on this one.  I also agree with Shift-Keys post before last.

Is their an OS that is everything for everyone?  No.  If I want a web server I'm going Linux all the way with Apache.  If I want trendy machine for a casual user, I probably just go with a Ma..  I'm sorry I just can't there are to many quirks in the user interface I don't like.  Me personally for what I do it would be Windows.  For people who like to watch a lot of media definitely Windows.  For people who enjoy DIY and Open Source I go with Linux.  For people who just like Open Source I go with OSX.  The fact is in the end each OS has a specific niche and market it is more geared toward and friendly to.  Much like Church demonations and religions.  Hey if you want to be Southern Baptist or Pagan more power to ya.  Thats what you believe.  I'll tell you my opinions and do what you may.  Just don't go ratting on mine.

On a side note:  Last I checked no distros include DVD playing software by default because it was considered illegal.  Any change on that?

On the Nintendo as a media hub.  As a true hub where its just streaming from other sources sure I be ok with that.  As a place where I buy movies and music to be stored on the Nintendo product, not so much.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shift Key

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).

How dare I impart my knowledge on this situation because I may have some knowledge about operating systems!

I'm not going into a tirade about the faults of Windows in this thread, since you feel that anyone's opinion that differs from yours should not be heard.

PS: I direct you to two articles

1. Red Hat Enterprise Linux gets the top security certification available to an operating system by the National Information Assurance Partnership (NIAP).
Source

2. Microsoft claims Linux infringes on 235 of its patents
Source

You may not take it seriously, but people in the industry (Microsoft included) are sitting up and taking notice.

What did I say? I say they both have their positive aspects, not sure how that goes into "Your opinion should not be heard". Talk about a complete overreaction (which you have done before). I've read about Linux and it is not the OS for me, maybe if I got involved in things that would put my computer at more risk, but at the moment I use my computer for the basics and Windows works perfectly, there is no need to get a new OS.

P.S. In regards to the bias thing, I was more referring to people like Smash who attack MS on everything, with individuals like that it makes it hard to take their opinion as anything BUT hatred toward X company when it comes to preference. If I came off as overly negative towards you Shecky I do apologize, you definitely have been quite fair!

[Chozo Ghost]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I really think you guys bashing MS should get a life, there are common sense CHEAP fixes for most of the problems and yet you still complain. I don't care if you have Linux or Windows you should always take extra steps to prevent problems. Both OSs have security problems, neither is perfect, and Linux does have the luxury of not being as readily available as Windows because the focus of hackers is more on Windows. What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).

Have you tried Linux? If you've never tried anything but Windows then you don't know that something even more stable is out there, and Linux is a lot easier these days than it used to be.

The final straw for me came when I had spent an hour typing something in windows and forgot to save it and then Windows just froze up and wouldn't respond. This has happened many times, before, but I had lost everything I was typing so from that day on I've been a Linux user and I've never had a repeat of that. So you say Windows is real stable and easy to use, but what are you comparing it to?

Plus, nothing beats free. Don't you have to pay $400 (plus tax) for the best version of Vista? For the 10 cents of a CD-R you can have Linux instead.

[Adrock]

I'm too f*cking lazy to bother with anything except Windows. I'm not going to put another OS in my computer and if I get a new one, it'll probably be Vista. What the hell do I look like, someone who isn't lazy?

[that Baby guy]

I've tried Linux, albeit briefly, and I have to say that a casual PC-er has no real reason to make a switch.  If they plan to work on their computer, or something, maybe it can be considered, but if you are born and bred on mostly Windows, IMO, Linux doesn't offer enough good to negate all the hassle of a switch.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I really think you guys bashing MS should get a life, there are common sense CHEAP fixes for most of the problems and yet you still complain. I don't care if you have Linux or Windows you should always take extra steps to prevent problems. Both OSs have security problems, neither is perfect, and Linux does have the luxury of not being as readily available as Windows because the focus of hackers is more on Windows. What I love about Windows is how easy it is to use and it is quite dependable, in fact I have had only minor problems with Windows products my whole life. So you like Linux? Good for you, but there are those of us who do not like it and you have to deal with it (though I feel the Linux love is more because of "hate MS" than it being such a stellar OS).

Have you tried Linux? If you've never tried anything but Windows then you don't know that something even more stable is out there, and Linux is a lot easier these days than it used to be.

The final straw for me came when I had spent an hour typing something in windows and forgot to save it and then Windows just froze up and wouldn't respond. This has happened many times, before, but I had lost everything I was typing so from that day on I've been a Linux user and I've never had a repeat of that. So you say Windows is real stable and easy to use, but what are you comparing it to?

Plus, nothing beats free. Don't you have to pay $400 (plus tax) for the best version of Vista? For the 10 cents of a CD-R you can have Linux instead.

I MAYBE had windows lock up like once or twice in the last decade. Like I said though alot of the stability may be coming from Linux not being the worth the time of hackers to create system ruining viruses (Those are about the only things that have caused instability problems for me in windows). So why would I want to switch to Linux when I've been more than happy with Windows and have had hardly any problems? That makes absolutely no sense, especially since I find Windows easy to use, stable, and easy to upkeep.

[Chozo Ghost]

Being a less popular OS helps Linux's security somewhat, but that's not the only reason. Being open means that Linux exploits get patched in a fraction of the time it takes Microsoft to release a patch. Also, Linux requires a user go into root mode to make any drastic changes such as installing new software. Viruses generally don't work well on Linux because of this.

There are probably other reasons, but that would take someone more familiar with the guts of it than me to explain... I'm just a user and I don't develop it or anything.

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

What did I say? I say they both have their positive aspects, not sure how that goes into "Your opinion should not be heard". Talk about a complete overreaction (which you have done before). I've read about Linux and it is not the OS for me, maybe if I got involved in things that would put my computer at more risk, but at the moment I use my computer for the basics and Windows works perfectly, there is no need to get a new OS.

P.S. In regards to the bias thing, I was more referring to people like Smash who attack MS on everything, with individuals like that it makes it hard to take their opinion as anything BUT hatred toward X company when it comes to preference. If I came off as overly negative towards you Shecky I do apologize, you definitely have been quite fair!

I've had just about enough of this garbage. You've obviously had a good time with Windows. Bravo. Encore. Et cetera.

I'll bet there's a lot of people who haven't had good experiences with Windows.  From the users who I've been involved with, there has been a lot of issues. Viruses, rootkits, weird sh!t, that kind of thing. I'm not going to spell it out but I think you're living in a state of delusion. Yes, you are aware of antivirus solutions such as Norton (I should belt you around the head for that decision alone, but that's not why I'm here). That is not a solution - it is a bandaid.

If you have to secure Windows after you install it by purchasing additional programs then the operating system itself is fundamentally flawed. I'm sure you'll argue this point but if you are in that mindset then I'm sure the hackers and crackers are licking their lips at the thought of Joe Gas Station not installing antivirus software with Vista

Forget the industry. Forget the hard-working people who are there solely because of security issues with operating system X. There is a much bigger problem afoot. If you choose to support the band-aid vendors, then you have chosen to support a vicious cycle. Even Microsoft agreed to this view when they refused third party programs access to the Vista kernel (but I bet you didn't notice this, your cocoon of knowledge would be oh so comfortable).

And they caved in to the third parties. Vista kernels can be accessed by third party programs. Which means they are as vulnerable as before.

And you've read about Linux? Congratulations. No, really. You opened a book, glossed a few paragraphs, and decided then and there your opinion. That's so very insightful. I wish I was as smart as you.
Given I am not as smart as you, I decided to actually try out Linux. And guess what - it takes a lot more work than an average Windows installation. There are definitely things that need improvement. But I guess that is what you deal with when you compare a collection of volunteers against a multi-billion dollar corporation - or am I aiming too low?

Anyway, I'm sure you've got something to reply to within this. You always do. Ciao!

[18 Days]

Quote
I've read about Linux and it is not the OS for me.

cos it supports communism am I rite? Any red blooded American would support patriotic and christian Windows instead!