Topic: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.

[Sir_Stabbalot]

[Ian Sane]

"I think they've said that, if Sony withdrew from the market, they would too."

That makes me wonder who would be making consoles if the giants pulled out.  I figure if Sony and MS left it would be because gaming no longer attracted enough mainstream revenue for them to bother.  The reason they're there in the first place is because they seeing gaming as an opportunity.  So if they left and assuming the market is profitable enough that game-specific Nintendo was still making consoles would other game companies step up and make their own consoles?  Would Sega be back or what someone like Capcom or Konami make their own hardware?  It's interesting to think about.

[KDR_11k]

50 million is about the money Rockstar would make from 1 million sales. Since GTA sells like mad and making the stuff cross-platform would bring in a lot of additional money it's going to cost a lot to keep it exclusive.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I think they've said that, if Sony withdrew from the market, they would too.

That's like Palpatine saying he'd step down after they won the Clone Wars.

[Ceric]

lol about Palpatine.  

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: Ceric How dare they make me upgrade to play Elebits, I should be able to play it on my Gamecube.

There is no compelling, functional reason to adopt Vista, and the PC community has seen a wide-scale outcry stating just that. It uses more resources and answers no problems with the current OS issues, but none of that will stop MS from standardizing it by literally forcing people to adopt it through making office and other key apps Vista-only.

Dude,

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Office 2007 Requirements
Computer and processor 500 megahertz (MHz) processor or higher 1
Memory 256 megabyte (MB) RAM or higher1, 2
Hard disk 3 gigabyte (GB); a portion of this disk space will be freed after installation if the original download package is removed from the hard drive.
Drive CD-ROM or DVD drive
Display 1024x768 or higher resolution monitor
Operating system Microsoft Windows XP with Service Pack (SP) 2, Windows Server 2003 with SP1, or later operating system3

Those are the requirements for the largest most intensive version.  I don't see Vista in there.  Not to mention that the OSX version is due to be released this year I beleive.  It will take advantage of the new features in Leopard.  Also their is a lot in Vista that people clamorred for and when they got it the side that was happy with how things were got vocal.  I mean Microsoft is having a hard time getting people to have DVD drives.  DVD Drives... Come on...

In the end computers love standards.  In closed system you can really squeeze a lot out, see NeoGeo for a good example.  Unfortunately that also stifles creativity and profits.  Back to Darned if you do Darned if you don't in the end.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Kairon That's like Palpatine saying he'd step down after they won the Clone Wars.

MS said that they'd enter the market if Sony attempted to take over the "living room" area because MS wanted a piece of that, too.

Both Sony and MS are tolerating the loss of money right now because the eyes on the prize see a living room situation where families sit down and buy their content off of MS/Sony media services, downloaded right to their media box, and both MS and Sony want to be that box (as does Apple).

Neither company sees gaming as a profitable venture, but they both see gaming as a trojan horse to deliver downloadable media to living rooms everywhere and for that reason, they're both willing to endure the losses that come with it.

It's pretty ironic, considering that Nintendo is the one who actually landed the first REAL "mainstream" console with the Wii.

Selling games and making $5-10 off a licensing fee every sale is a pittance, not only compared to the costs of operation for Sony/MS, but also the amount they COULD be making on "owning" the living room.

So yeah, if Sony pulls out of the gaming market and focuses on a different path into the living room, you can probably expect MS to do the same.

Neither of these companies is here for games, what with Sony's declaration of "The PS3 can sell without games" and MS's goal of being the media box.

All that said, the amount of irony in Nintendo being the winner AND having the most mainstream appeal this gen is unbelievable...

[Ceric]

I agree with Smash.  Except for the now that we are this far in it would no longer be good business to do a 180 instead of repurposing.

[UERD]

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<comic>

I think 'lemon-flavored dead fetus souls' would be more accurate.

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MS said that they'd enter the market if Sony attempted to take over the "living room" area because MS wanted a piece of that, too.

Both Sony and MS are tolerating the loss of money right now because the eyes on the prize see a living room situation where families sit down and buy their content off of MS/Sony media services, downloaded right to their media box, and both MS and Sony want to be that box (as does Apple).

Neither company sees gaming as a profitable venture, but they both see gaming as a trojan horse to deliver downloadable media to living rooms everywhere and for that reason, they're both willing to endure the losses that come with it.

It's pretty ironic, considering that Nintendo is the one who actually landed the first REAL "mainstream" console with the Wii.

Selling games and making $5-10 off a licensing fee every sale is a pittance, not only compared to the costs of operation for Sony/MS, but also the amount they COULD be making on "owning" the living room.

So yeah, if Sony pulls out of the gaming market and focuses on a different path into the living room, you can probably expect MS to do the same.

Neither of these companies is here for games, what with Sony's declaration of "The PS3 can sell without games" and MS's goal of being the media box.

All that said, the amount of irony in Nintendo being the winner AND having the most mainstream appeal this gen is unbelievable...

I remember people were talking about a possible iTunes channel when the Wii first came out. That being said, I seriously doubt that either MS/Sony will ever be able to 'dominate' the living-room captive-audience market. I don't think either company could have done it even if their respective console had won this generation by a landslide.

Think about it. MS/Sony want you to buy and make their consoles the center of your entertainment life so that eventually they can sell you other things (computers, TVs, media players) that are overpriced but which your 'entertainment hub' is locked into. But that's never going to work. A person might have a Sony TV, a computer running Microsoft Vista, an iPod for listening to music, a Wii gaming system, a HD-DVD player, etc. Neither company is ever going to be able to make a home media hub so compelling that someone will be willing to forgo market choice for compatibility. Period.  

[Ian Sane]

"none of that will stop MS from standardizing it by literally forcing people to adopt it through making office and other key apps Vista-only."

At home I still use Office 97.  What useful new features have MS introduced to Office in the last ten years?  At work all I ever notice in new versions of Office is more annoying autoformating bullsh!t that just makes things more difficult.  Needing Windows Vista to run Office Vista is only an issue if you need Office Vista which I'll bet you don't.  Eventually somebody is going to make a program you need or want that requires Vista but no one should feel compelled to update before then.

I've had my PC for a few years now and I still haven't reached that point where I feel the need to get a new machine.  For all my previous PCs I wanted a new one six months after I got it.  I think we're slowly plateauing.  Businesses often benefit from better hardware but I don't need better hardware to word process, surf the web and listen to MP3s.  Though if I played PC games things would be different.

[that Baby guy]

Ian, to answer your earlier question, I see Square-Enix, Namco, and EA as the companies that would be willing to stake creating their own consoles.  SE and EA above Namco, though.

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.

I find Vista to be an immature product (tried it on four separate systems now - old and new, laptop and desktop - and they've all had problems. I haven't recommended it to anyone until they:

1. Improve driver support significantly
2. Implement a security design that actually works - popup alerts are not the way to do this.
3. Give the option to return to XP-style interface and menu and avoid the requirement  - this was available in XP.
4. Simplify things - seven versions of Vista is not the way to do this.

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Out of those my favorites so far are Vista and Linux. Though I may enjoy a well setup Linux box I'm not to big into the setup part and like.

I don't see how this is different to setting up a Windows box - only you configure a few text files instead of GUI menus. Installing new software and updating is much more straightforward for your average modern Linux distro then it is with Windows.

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Last I checked I could still get XP and 2000 for that matter.

Not in Australia - all new systems now come bundled with some sort of Vista - generally Home Basic.

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I am function key away from seeing all windows or the desktop and it doesn't require DX10 stuff.

Guess what? I don't even need to click a function key to view all my windows. Under Beryl + KDE, moving my mouse to the top right corner of the screen does the same thing.

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Vista is a bloated, memory-sucking resource hog, designed to look as much like OSX as possible, just without the stability or security.

A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.



Ah, its always good to start the day with a good thread derail.

[Ceric]

*shrug*
The three systems I've ran it on.  The 2 that were using Beta Versions: The one that was woefully under spec, it didn't have the specs to really run XP, run it ok with issues with the onboard sound.  The one with the beta with the mostly right specs, Intel onboard graphics blah, did ok but we had some problems with the samba implementation in OSX being older then what is current for the project doing some weirdness with it.  Now on the install that I have now which is using the Business release non-beta I have it dual booting with the older XP partition, software I don't have the reinstall for is on the other, and on that particular machine, which is over 3 years old, Vista runs better then the XP install.  Personally I think they probably run about the same but the other has a little age on it.  It has no Driver issues.  At this point I probably wouldn't recommend Vista or any truly new OS at this stage of its life.  On the flipside if it happens to be on your machine when you get it I wouldn't tell you to put XP or Linux on it either.  I think its at that point by the end of the year it should mature up enough to move out of early adopters and tech heads and into competent user territory.

On my experience with Linux, historically speaking, while the actual setup part is just as easy.  I have a terrible terrible time with driver support for Linux.  I seem to always have that odd video card that doesn't work  quite right or something else.  If I want a straight command line box I'm good to go.  Anything with a Gui something always seems to happen.  Updating and the like can be just as simple considering the distro.

I also like Multiple Desktop in KDE and Gnome.  Windows has a plugin from Microsoft for this and its ok.  Also like the full customization of the mentioned 2.

Here in the States most manufacturers still give you the choice of XP.   Though when Microsoft releases the newest version of Server the paranoid Admin, you can't be too paranoid as an admin, we'll see a benefit from a full Vista desktop line.  (Mainly all communication between the two use stronger encryption among other security features that aren't part of XP.)  Though that will be a mute point unless third parties start making there software fully compatible w/out using the compatibility modes.

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A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.

So so true.  Chair to Keyboard Errors...

Earlier We were talking about things that get supported for to long.... Heres one.  I wish people would stop using VB6 and move on... VB.Net is really not that terribly different to program in...  Though it now seems they have the 5 year life of Vista to keep using it.

After rereading this.  To tell you truth I could probably be just as happy as a full time Linux guy if I had more patience.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
::shakes head in disgust:: You guys sound like whiney babies in regards to MS. It seems whenever a company gets big everyone hates them, but whatever, I find Vista to be a solid Operating system and respect MS for not only their products but their employee culture.

Yes, Vista is so solid that MS is doing people a favor by forcing them to use it.

Indeed...

Microsoft waves hand, "Vista has nothing to do with DRM, it is great, you will install it"

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: Ceric
Office 2007 Requirements
Computer and processor 500 megahertz (MHz) processor or higher 1
Memory 256 megabyte (MB) RAM or higher1, 2
Hard disk 3 gigabyte (GB); a portion of this disk space will be freed after installation if the original download package is removed from the hard drive.
Drive CD-ROM or DVD drive
Display 1024x768 or higher resolution monitor
Operating system Microsoft Windows XP with Service Pack (SP) 2, Windows Server 2003 with SP1, or later operating system3

Those are the requirements for the largest most bloated version.  I don't see Vista in there.  Not to mention that the OSX version is due to be released this year I beleive.  It will take advantage of the new features in Leopard.  Also their is a lot in Vista that people clamorred for and when they got it the side that was happy with how things were got vocal.  I mean Microsoft is having a hard time getting people to have DVD drives.  DVD Drives... Come on...

In the end computers love standards.  In closed system you can really squeeze a lot out, see NeoGeo for a good example.  Unfortunately that also stifles creativity and profits.  Back to Darned if you do Darned if you don't in the end.

Fix'd

Oh, and good luck running Windows at those requirements.... are those numbers additions to Windows' requirements?  Is that in the fine print?

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Shift Key  A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.

Eh...

"Spyware" acquired its nomenclature because users typically have no clue it's there, nor that they're acquiring it.

[Shecky]

So the reason that Windows is a solid Operating System is because of window management and user interface??

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A computer is only as secure as the person using it. No amount of OS security will save a stupid user from malware.

Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
"Spyware" acquired its nomenclature because users typically have no clue it's there, nor that they're acquiring it.

What does that have to do with anything? Call it what you will, its still a problem.

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Originally posted by: Shecky
Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")

No it won't. For example: Unix and Linux security models were based around the concept of a "root" user having access to all data on a computer, and then having other users with more restricted access. This model breaks down when a user decides to do everything as the root user for convenience's sake and then runs malicious program X. If the user cannot differentiate between operations which require root access and programs that can be run just fine in a sandbox environment then they are just subverting the OS security model.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.

[oohhboy]

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Originally posted by: Shift Key

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I am function key away from seeing all windows or the desktop and it doesn't require DX10 stuff.

Guess what? I don't even need to click a function key to view all my windows. Under Beryl + KDE, moving my mouse to the top right corner of the screen does the same thing.

Ah, its always good to start the day with a good thread derail.

I can do that too, but a choose not to turn that on. I like my corners free of stuff.

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.

OH NO HORRIBLE NORTON MEMORIES FLOODING BACK! MAKE THE PAIN STOP!

[Mashiro]

"Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")"

Couldn't agree more Shecky.

I used to own Windows based computers and while I never had a problem with the OS my parents and sister would often do *something* that would compromise the computer. However, upon switching them to OS X they haven't had a single issue and i've been headache free =).

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: Mashiro
However, upon switching them to OS X they haven't had a single issue and i've been headache free =).

Paging 18 Days to this thread for the standard "Macs are better than PCs" spiel. Paging 18 Days.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: Shift Key

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Originally posted by: Shecky
Umm, ok... it's true that if your stupid with security then your asking for trouble, but proper OS security will protect the system from stupid users (and from "malware")

No it won't. For example: Unix and Linux security models were based around the concept of a "root" user having access to all data on a computer, and then having other users with more restricted access. This model breaks down when a user decides to do everything as the root user for convenience's sake and then runs malicious program X. If the user cannot differentiate between operations which require root access and programs that can be run just fine in a sandbox environment then they are just subverting the OS security model.

Thanks, that's kind of my point... running as root is pretty high on the "asking for trouble" list.  Why don't we just throw empty passwords to that list too?  My point is that if I were running as a user in Windows, the machine is still at risk.  (Heck the existance of an account called Guest, even if it's disabled is a security threat)

I can have a poorly written application, not malicious in nature, take down my computer... what's up with that?!  Heck, their web browser (IE) can do all sorts of things to your computer...

We're talking about an OS that changed the blue screen of death to just reboot the computer instead.... come on!  Why don't they just fix the core problem?... maybe it's because as an operating system Windows is fundamentally flawed.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
All I can say is that I've had no problem keeping malicious stuff out with Norton 360 and various other software.

Heh, so you find Windows to be a solid operating system once enough bandaids are applied

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: Shecky
Why don't they just fix the core problem?... maybe it's because as an operating system Windows is fundamentally flawed.

There are several reasons why I don't use Windows as my main OS these days. The security model is only one of these.

Windows was designed as a single-user OS, and it is this design that remains at the root of Vista (sure, it does support multiple users these days but NT was an extension of Windows 95). Until they fix this, they will continue to have problems.

PS: If you have admin rights on a Windows box then there's still a chance of doing damage. Windows file rights these days are a bit more fine-grained so it depends on the setup.

Reminds me of a funny story from recently. I was at work watching a colleague's demo of a remote logging program and he was making minor changes to it. But as he was running Vista it stopped him from making manual changes to the files within Program Files on the computer, even with Administrator rights. It seemed like Vista was being paranoid.

The only solution was to produce a new installation program, uninstall the old version and reinstall the new version. There was no other way around this (that we could figure out, the error messages didn't help).