Topic: I hope "Secret Rings" doesn't suck...

[Kairon]

By the way, it's totally fun to play this game by leaning your whole torso when you're twisting the controller backwards or forwards... especially if you have a chair that can tilt with you!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Bill Aurion]

"Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better."

Insult get... =\  

Maybe we don't go in with insanely high expectations (which is what you should avoid for ALL games, really) and are having fun with what is the best attempt at Sonic in 3D yet...

[Kairon]

Well, it WAS a Sega game, so no one really went in with high expectations.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better."

Insult get... =\  

Maybe we don't go in with insanely high expectations (which is what you should avoid for ALL games, really) and are having fun with what is the best attempt at Sonic in 3D yet...

Trust me I had no high expectations, the only reason I purchased it is because Smash recommended it, up until then I was on the fence. To say I was dissapointed shows how poorly I view the game!

[Caliban]

I got the game today, I only put an hour into it I think. So far I have no complaint.

I've put the language set to Japanese with english subtitles. Somehow it is alot less distracting during gameplay because I ignore what she's saying and I don't have time to read because I'm focused on the action. I wish they had other language options other than JAP and ENG.

Why are there 4 rings [Ring A, B(?), C(?), D(?)] to customize from? I checked the manual but I didn't see anything, maybe I missed it.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
"Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better."

Insult get... =\  

Maybe we don't go in with insanely high expectations (which is what you should avoid for ALL games, really) and are having fun with what is the best attempt at Sonic in 3D yet...

Trust me I had no high expectations, the only reason I purchased it is because Smash recommended it, up until then I was on the fence. To say I was dissapointed shows how poorly I view the game!

Then blame Smash, not Nintendo fans!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[IceCold]

Quote
Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better.

That would make more sense coming from you if you hadn't just called Twilight Princess one of the best games ever. Plus you don't like F-Zero GX. That's an automatic fail.

Your opinion of Super Mario Bros 3 makes up for it, though

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold

Quote
Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better.

That would make more sense coming from you if you hadn't just called Twilight Princess one of the best games ever. Plus you don't like F-Zero GX. That's an automatic fail.

Your opinion of Super Mario Bros 3 makes up for it, though

QFT

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NWR_pap64]

In defense of S_B, he NEVER said to go out and buy SR, Golden. Yes, he gave some good impressions, but he NEVER said "This game is amazing, BUY IT!". In fact, he even said that the game was SLOPPY in some places. He also explained to Pro what he might/might not like about the game. He was being fair. If you weren't sure about the game, you should've just rented it. He might have also said not to miss the game, but what he meant is to not dismiss it or ignore it simply because its a Sonic game. And finally, the title of the thread may say "Secret rings doesn't suck", but that doesn't mean the game isn't without its flaws.

And I agree with everyone else your comment about Nintendo fas was unfair and uncalled for. Simply because they liked a game you didn't it doesn't mean they don't know any better. Its called "BEING SUBJECTIVE", meaning that what may be crap for you may be excellent to someone else.

To be blunt, it sounds like you are trying to vent your frustration on us and frankly, its nobody fault. You didn't like the game that's fine. You have the right to say you didn't like it, just like its everyone else's right to disagree with it.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold

Quote
Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better.

That would make more sense coming from you if you hadn't just called Twilight Princess one of the best games ever. Plus you don't like F-Zero GX. That's an automatic fail.

Your opinion of Super Mario Bros 3 makes up for it, though

If you want me to go down the list and dissect why TP blows SR out of the water, I will. The odd thing about TP is that most critics and yes people who have played it agree with me that it is a great game. Back more to point it is a bit unfair to compare my opinion on TP since it is nothing like the unpolished material that is Red Steel and SR. If you want I could compare SR with TP via quality though.

To be blunt, Sonic and the Secret Rings feels rushed, it has no real connection between the challenges and worlds besides random cutscenes, and instead feels like a bunch of pieces thrown together by a team that was trying to push it out the door. That is a fact as far as I'm concerned, just look at how the stages are handled and how unlocking various items is achieved, it feels more like Sonic and the Secret Challenges then a cohesive unit or adventure. Smash kind of glossed over this aspect but I feel it is important to this argument  there is no over world or anything to tighten up the appearance of loose ends, heck even the 2D Sonics felt more like a cohesive packaged.

What I find even more staggering is that Smash would criticize SA for feeling on rails when Secret Ring has it in Spades (well at least SA made sense in its design).  SR would probably have made more sense if Sonic rode around in the Sonic mobile or something, at least using the Wiimote as a steering wheel would seem a bit more intuitive. Not to mention it has some of the lamest most unimaginative obstacle placements around, and some very unintuitive actions like pulling up on the Wiimote to make Sonic go backwards in order to get something (sometimes it is the only way) along with fighting the camera angle at the same time makes for a very broken experience.

WHat I find most odd about this topic is that I am criticized for stating how low people's expectations are when it comes to Wii systems, yet these same people harpoon someone like Matt because he didn't like "X" game. Do I think Nintendo fans (me included) have good taste? Yes but I also think we can get desperate if we don't experience other systems, and our standards do get lowered when it comes to 3rd party games because we've been longing for them, myself included. I want to see a true innovation come out of 3rd parties but on the flip side I don't think praising something like SR is going to get it. The game could be done on the PS3 and is nothing more than a tilt and tumble version of Sonic.

To conclude, why have I gotten so pumped up about SR? Well I think it is a sad state when Wii owners feel the need to praise a game like Sonic (basically calling for more tilt based games) yet rip a game like TP, which makes no logical sense to me. Looking at posts lately you would think TP was overrated crap and Secret Rings is a "flawed" but amazingly fun game. I'm sorry but that looks bad, regardless if that is the message some here meant to convey.

P.S. I don't like any of the Fzero games, I don't like the racing genre in general.
 

[Kairon]

No one is praising Sonis controls. They're adapting to it and claiming that they aren't that rough, but I haven't seen anyone praising the controls. It's the concept of the game that excites me at least: a corridor runner/platformer! Star Fox 64 at high speed and with less shooting! Reflexes and adreenaline, but also some problem solving and platforming as well!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
No one is praising Sonis controls. They're adapting to it and claiming that they aren't that rough, but I haven't seen anyone praising the controls. It's the concept of the game that excites me at least: a corridor runner/platformer! Star Fox 64 at high speed and with less shooting!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Also known as Sonic Tilt and Tumblewii.

If Star Fox turns out like Sonic I will scream, I do not want to fly an arwing by tilting the controller while avoiding gigantic rocks randomly placed around corners to kill me. Speaking of Star Fox I felt the controls broke the DS version a bit as well. I guess that is why I feel that you should use the Wii's innovation when you need to, in order to heighten the experience and immersion but it should be left out when things could be done much more intuitively with a joystick. Just because you make a Wii game doesn't mean you have to tack on controls in games that detract from enjoyment. For the heck of it I'm going to let my sister play Sonic and see what she thinks, she loved Excite Truck so we'll see. Speaking of Excite Truck, even though I love the game I hope they don't tilt and tumble every racer out there, the Wiimote has so much more potential.

[Kairon]

Kirby Tilt 'n Tumble looked a helluva lot like Super Monkey Ball... Sonic looks like Star Fox without guns and with more speed. It's like falling forward, and trying not to hit things on the way down!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[IceCold]

Golden, you said that you thought Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore. My point was that Zelda is a great game, and obviously you agree, so how can your statement be true? I wasn't questioning your view of whether Sonic is a bad game or not; I haven't even played it..

Though you did somewhat clarify by saying third party games.

[Kairon]

Sonic and the Secret Rings: It's like playing chicken... with the WORLD.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold

Quote
Maybe people are right, Nintendo and Wii owners don't know what a good game is anymore and instead eat up Red Steel and this game because they don't know any better.

That would make more sense coming from you if you hadn't just called Twilight Princess one of the best games ever. Plus you don't like F-Zero GX. That's an automatic fail.

Your opinion of Super Mario Bros 3 makes up for it, though

If you want me to go down the list and dissect why TP blows SR out of the water, I will. The odd thing about TP is that most critics and yes people who have played it agree with me that it is a great game. Back more to point it is a bit unfair to compare my opinion on TP since it is nothing like the unpolished material that is Red Steel and SR. If you want I could compare SR with TP via quality though.

To be blunt, Sonic and the Secret Rings feels rushed, it has no real connection between the challenges and worlds besides random cutscenes, and instead feels like a bunch of pieces thrown together by a team that was trying to push it out the door. That is a fact as far as I'm concerned, just look at how the stages are handled and how unlocking various items is achieved, it feels more like Sonic and the Secret Challenges then a cohesive unit or adventure. Smash kind of glossed over this aspect but I feel it is important to this argument  there is no over world or anything to tighten up the appearance of loose ends, heck even the 2D Sonics felt more like a cohesive packaged.

What I find even more staggering is that Smash would criticize SA for feeling on rails when Secret Ring has it in Spades (well at least SA made sense in its design).  SR would probably have made more sense if Sonic rode around in the Sonic mobile or something, at least using the Wiimote as a steering wheel would seem a bit more intuitive. Not to mention it has some of the lamest most unimaginative obstacle placements around, and some very unintuitive actions like pulling up on the Wiimote to make Sonic go backwards in order to get something (sometimes it is the only way) along with fighting the camera angle at the same time makes for a very broken experience.

WHat I find most odd about this topic is that I am criticized for stating how low people's expectations are when it comes to Wii systems, yet these same people harpoon someone like Matt because he didn't like "X" game. Do I think Nintendo fans (me included) have good taste? Yes but I also think we can get desperate if we don't experience other systems, and our standards do get lowered when it comes to 3rd party games because we've been longing for them, myself included. I want to see a true innovation come out of 3rd parties but on the flip side I don't think praising something like SR is going to get it. The game could be done on the PS3 and is nothing more than a tilt and tumble version of Sonic.

To conclude, why have I gotten so pumped up about SR? Well I think it is a sad state when Wii owners feel the need to praise a game like Sonic (basically calling for more tilt based games) yet rip a game like TP, which makes no logical sense to me. Looking at posts lately you would think TP was overrated crap and Secret Rings is a "flawed" but amazingly fun game. I'm sorry but that looks bad, regardless if that is the message some here meant to convey.

P.S. I don't like any of the Fzero games, I don't like the racing genre in general.

First of all, you are acting VERY touchy about this.

It's OK to feel disappointed with SR, but it isn't cool that you are criticizing everyone else for liking the game and even questioning their taste in games.

The general agreement that even with faults SR is a good game, meaning that some people WILL enjoy it, some more than others. It's a fact. It may not be a triple A title, but at least it is worth renting or if you are a big fan a buy.

Second, I honestly don't see ANYONE harping TP like you mentioned. The ONLY one I've seen around bashing the game is Pro 666, who is constantly saying "TP is fan service!". But other than that, the game was praised like it was the second coming of Christ, so why are you so uppity about that.

And finally, I am getting sick and tired of your "Nintendo fans are a pitiful bunch" claim. I would develop that further, but I will save that for the other thread.

Seriously, why are you acting this way? You didn't like the game, others did. Why the act?

[Kairon]

Hey. I'll bash TP willingly. I just haven't had the time or energy to do so.... "best zelda ever" PAH!!!

TP was almost as disjointed as Sonic, in my opinion. And it was almost as unfulfilling in promise as wind waker.

Yeah, I said it!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[King of Twitch]

*Prepares the gallows*

[Kairon]

*gulp*

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Hey. I'll bash TP willingly. I just haven't had the time or energy to do so.... "best zelda ever" PAH!!!

TP was almost as disjointed as Sonic, in my opinion. And it was almost as unfulfilling in promise as wind waker.

Yeah, I said it!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

That makes no sense whatsoever, comparing Zelda's interconnected world with Sonic and the SR "select" a challenge overlay is ridiculous. See that is why I feel it is a tad bit dangerous to start praising Sonic so much. Don't get me wrong I can see how the game is fun (I've enjoyed parts of it), but to get all the praise it is getting is mind boggling. Most games I can understand why people praise them so much even if I may not like it, but games like Sonic or Red Steel I do not understand, both feel unfinished in one way or another. They may be fun but they have so many flaws giving them such praise as 8ish scores (more so with Sonic) is odd and makes me wonder if we are so desparate for 3rd parties we will grasp onto anything and make it a very good game because we want more 3rd party games or are in a drought.

To Pap, if you read what I said I included myself in talking about Nintendo fans and I seen the same things happen with N64 and even the NDS. It seems us as Nintendo fans (probably will be the case with PS3 as well now that it is hurting) tend to overpraise 3rd party games because we haven't gotten many in the past. I'll admit I was harsh with my first statement about Nintendo fans not having good taste, though I do think we tend to grasp onto things more tightly when so few come around. Sonic is a slightly above average 3rd party game in a drought season, and it is understandable why it is possible some could overpraise it. Personally I find a game like SR to be dangerous in its use of the Wiimote, and do not want to see this trend, so that is also fueling my dissention amongst the masses here.

[GoldenPhoenix]

BTW to not totally trash Sonic, I think all the mindless lemmings who bought Crackdown (like me, though others bought it for the Halo 3 beta) are worse.

[Kairon]

I've noticed the same thing as you in the past years GoldenPhoenix, but I don't think this is a case of it. Most of those cases of over-ratedness ALSO infected the critics, as with Eternal Darkness. And most of those games were in established genres where Nintendo fans were desperate to see a Nintendo equivalent to other console renditions, like FPS' (Geist).

But Sonic is in a genre all its own, and is getting hammer by the critics(what did IGN give it? 6.9?). It's also MUCH smaller in scope as a game compared to the previous overrated fanboi-propped-up games. Sonic and the Secret Rings is easy for its adopters to love because its simplicity allows you to concentrate on the fun portions instead of getting bogged down in the unfun portions (unlike Geist's long levels and not-quite-satisfying puzzles, or replaying ED 3 times without ever feeling any real challenge).

The praise that sonic gets is much more like the praise that games like Excite Truck gets than the support that Rayman Raving Rabbids got from Nintendo fans.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

P.S. One day, I'll write my big critique on Zelda: TP, and then all my minor disappointments with the game will be laid out for all to see...

[GoldenPhoenix]

I found Rayman to be a tad bit overrated, and felt it got better scores because it was one of the first Wii games and will NOT stand the test of time. I guess in addition to me not wanting to see tilt controls being a focus, I also get the feeling that Sonic and the SR was pushed out the door ahead of its time. You have to admit the challenge setup is a bit odd (I find many of the challenges to be tedious but that is another story, though I do enjoy the "don't die" challenges), it is like they didn't have time to tie things together. Even the story doesn't flow with what is going on, but is dependent on beating so many challenges. I guess I expect a Sonic game to feel like a whole, not a mish mash and collection of ideas. It is like the game doesn't even know what it wants to be. Heck look at the tacked on multiplayer mode, that is almost atrocious! Then again maybe the game was relatively low budget and Sega wouldn't spend anymore on pulling things together.

[Kairon]

I WON'T look at the multiplayer mode, thank you very much. It WAS developed by another team, to my knowledge.

But I've always admired the reusage of stages and assets because they're re-examining the same location but with a different theme in mind. One of the things I liked most about Mario Sunshine (and Mario 64 before it) was how each stage's "threads," or paths to a star, were integrated and coiled together in a near perfect manner. Much like one star in SMS had the entire level virtually covered in paint, one challenge in Sonic and the Secret Rings takes a level, reorganizes enemies and items to provide appropriate challenges, and even opens up new paths through a level. In one level in Dino land, I had to take each of four objects to the proper location... and these were randomized each playthrough. I had to use the new paths this challenge implemented in the level to loop around and locate where in the level loop each object needed to be delivered.

So I guess, in that sense, I admire the revisiting of levels under different constraints. I can definitely understand how you'd claim they were being "lazy," but have you ever bothered to notice how these revisits enable them to create a more traditional hardcore, goal-oriented experience? In many ways, Sonic Rings seems a treat for "hardcore" players who love a twitchy impossible challenge.

AND, have you bothered to think that this obsession with content, "more-levels-more-story-more-bosses-more-playtime-more-more-more-more" is in some ways responsible for the rising cost of games and the deviation from abstract setups that concentrate on gameplay experiences? In a way, this stuff needs to be pointed out as NOT necessary. Especially for old-school, abstract franchises like Sonic, what we don't need is story (the romance with a HUMAN in Sonic Next-Gen for example...), what we don't need is vehicle combat (Riders?), what we don't need is attitude or cultural pandering (Shadow???)...

What we don't need are more and more features added just to justify a good game's existence... We just need the game. We just need Tetris. We just need Sonic running fast.

And the sooner Sega, and other developers recognize the myth that "content is king," the sooner they can start feeling free to experiment with solid gameplay... not at the EXPENSE of content (because content is STILL important, just not the be-all-and-end-all), but at least independent of content restrictions.

... and on a side note ... even though I'm not a sonic fan ... I HATED the modern day sterilized neo-tokyo overworld's in the last couple sonic games ...

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com