Battlefield Could Have Been Exclusive to GameCube

by Neal Ronaghan - November 19, 2011, 3:26 pm PST
Total comments: 67

Unfortunately, it never got past the first line because Nintendo had no online strategy.

Battlefield developer DICE pitched Battlefield as a GameCube exclusive to Nintendo, according to Penny Arcade's Jeff Kalles (and former Nintendo of America employee) on our 2nd Annual Live Podcast Telethon for Child's Play.

Apparently, despite Nintendo's love for the initial pitch, it never got past the gatekeepers because Nintendo had no online strategy in place.

It is worth noting that developers routinely pitch publishers all the time, and Nintendo was likely part of DICE's rounds when they were making Battlefield. Still, imagine if Nintendo had the force of Battlefield to build an online infrastructure around.

You'll be able to hear the whole segment, which featured Kalles, Site Founder Billy Berghammer, Totally Rad Show's Jeff Cannata, and former Planet GameCube staffer Rick Powers, in the next few days.

Talkback

the asylumNovember 20, 2011

Sad to say Nintendo's online stance isn't much better now either

It's also too bad that they're going to let unscruplous scum like EA run their usual shennanigans on the Wii U

Just do what HVS had to beg and plead with you to do, Nintendo

EnnerNovember 20, 2011

Thinking that Battlefield 1942 could have been a Nintendo exclusive is just plain weird.

It makes you wonder how many other exclusives were lost due to Nintendo's online approach..


Hopefully this is all fixed with Wii U, the perfect time to show all they've learnt.

BlackNMild2k1November 20, 2011

Considering the fact that Nintendo has online before there was internet, it's quite surprising that they are just now trying to get their online game up to par.

NES - Famicom Modem (1988)

If they had pursued the idea more aggressively.... they could be the online gaming leading of today and never have let MS set the standard for console gaming.


edit: Looks like NWR had an article on this for those that are interested
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/feature/27666

coffeewithgamesNovember 20, 2011

Quote from: famicomplicated

It makes you wonder how many other exclusives were lost due to Nintendo's online approach..


Hopefully this is all fixed with Wii U, the perfect time to show all they've learnt.

Actually, the time to show that was with the 3DS, and I think that showed Nintendo learned basically NOTHING about online importance.
Still using the friend code system, even though it's much improved, it's still a number to be remembered and not a name.


No voice chat from day one, no way to really even communicate with friends once you add them to your list...


Until I see a SERIOUS effort from Nintendo with the online aspect, I have my doubts Wii U will get the support it needs for the LONG run.  Sony and Microsoft actively go after third party developers, and make adjustments where needed to try and work with them.  Nintendo, no, Nintendo makes third party developers remove content from their games that they deem "advertisements", instead of focusing on game-play aspects and improving their own services.

GoldenPhoenixNovember 20, 2011

I think it is only a matter of time before Nintendo gets with the program fully with online, especially with the financial hit they have taken. That is usually how you wake a company up, so I hope it changes with Wii U

The 3DS online system is a massive improvement from the Wii, and, more importantly, and unlike with the Wii, they designed it in a way that it isn't nearly impossible to improve it even further after launch.

Chozo GhostNovember 21, 2011

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Considering the fact that Nintendo has online before there was internet,

Wasn't the internet invented in the 1960s by the U.S. military?

TJ SpykeNovember 21, 2011

I think BNM is mixing up the Internet with the World Wide Web.

BlackNMild2k1November 21, 2011

Quote from: TJ

I think BNM is mixing up the Internet with the World Wide Web.

yes. well sort of.

I meant Nintendo was experimenting with something very similar to what we today consider the internet/world wide web, way back on the NES. Yet they never managed to mature their own idea into something usable all these years. They never managed to put together a competent online system even after seeing the very same idea spread across the entire world and even seeing competition embrace and set the standard for it in the console space.

Another missed opportunity by Nintendo to innovate.

Like Insanolord said the 3DS has improved a lot since launch as they've obviously designed the system to be more easily upgraded (OS-wise). We can probably look forward to even more improvements too (this month for example)

If they do this for Wii U (and why wouldn't they?) it doesn't matter if ALL the features we want at launch aren't there, they can be added in later.
I'll remind everybody that the PS3 didn't have trophies, cross-game chat and many other features at launch. The 360 dashboard was also pretty bad at launch too..

Plus we don't have to pay to play games online (except Monster Hunter and soon DQX, in Japan) which I'm pretty sure will be the case for Wii U too.
Coupled with the fact we could have Steam and/or Origin available for downloading full games (theoretically) there is a lot to be hopeful and excited about Wii U online.


So that's why I said Wii U is the time to show what they've learnt.

Chozo GhostNovember 21, 2011

The problem with Nintendo and their innovations has always been that they wait until the technology comes down in price, or has already been mass adopted. That's why they didn't support HD when they launched the Wii in 2006 because at that time HD TVs were in their infancy and didn't have a very high adoption rate yet. The same goes with broadband internet access. I don't know how many homes had internet and especially broadband internet 10 years ago, but it was certainly much less than it is today. Now both HD and internet are ubiquitous in American homes so only now is Nintendo finally getting on board the bandwagon, even though their competitors did that 5+ years ago.

Yeah, which means they won't fully support 3DTV's until the next generation, that is unless 3D fails completely.
I heard 3D will be possible on the Wii U though, but I doubt Nintendo will make any 3D games themselves.

Chozo GhostNovember 21, 2011

3D was actually possible on the Gamecube. It was just never used at all. 3D is probably possible on the Wii also, since the Wii is beefed up GC hardware, but here again the feature has never been used in any games.

CericNovember 21, 2011

Without HDMI output a 3D TV would look at it funny and go "What you trying to do Bub?"
I will be very disappointed if 3D isn't supported by the Wii U.
After playing Wipeout HD I would dock a full point from an F-Zero game and a half point from Mario Kart without any regret if they didn't Support 3D. (A quarter point for the next 3D Mario game and Zelda.)

TJ SpykeNovember 21, 2011

I seriously hope no reviewer ever follows your advice Ceric, in terms of taking away points for not having 3D. That is like these moronic "reviewers" who dock points from all Wii games for not being HD. First, the adoption rate for 3D TV's is so low that it's not really worth it for most publishers to even bother. Second, it doesn't really add to games. I am not saying they can't add 3D to games, just that it doesn't hurt the game if it doesn't have 3D; and that it should be considered a bonus feature at best. I would rather the developer spend that time making sure the game is bug free and working fine.

CericNovember 21, 2011

Quote from: TJ

...
Second, it doesn't really add to games.
...

I have to argue that point for this specific Genre.  Racing I really think is enhanced by 3D.  I think it is the genre that is most enhanced by 3D.  When done good not even well the sense of speed you get from having the 3D is really great.

NinSageNovember 21, 2011

Imagine if Battlefield was GameCube exclusive.
Imagine if the PlayStation was the N64.
Imagine if the 360 didn't RROD.
Imagine if the PS3 wasn't $600.
Imagine if the six-axis worked.
Imagine if PSN never got hacked.
Imagine if Kinect games incorporated the controller.

It's nice to learn new bits of history that we didn't before, but it's foolish how game culture obsesses over Nintendo's sins.  While having the presence of mind to regard other companies' mistakes as "oh please, move on already!"

Sh*t happens, enjoy games.

BlackNMild2k1November 21, 2011

But RRoD still gets cried about to this day and PSN will not likely live down it's hacking till this generation is officially over and forgotten.
SixAxis is forgotten about but got it's fair share of criticism and everything else on your list was talked about for quite a while too.

This news just came up a few days ago, people want to talk about. This will and has gotten much much less exposure/conversation/outrage than everything else on your list.




edit: and as Insano has already pointed out, we've already moved on to Nintendo and their lack of competency in online even though they were once a pioneer in the area.

Also, people will stop obsessing over Nintendo's mistakes in the online arena once they get it right, which, despite significant improvements, they haven't done yet.

CericNovember 21, 2011

I'll bite.

Quote from: NinSage

Imagine if Battlefield was GameCube exclusive. (Hey, You got Your Dude-bro in my Mario.  You got Your Mario in My Dude-Bro.  Mario Bro.  The brothers are from anotha motha. *fist Bump*)
Imagine if the PlayStation was the N64. (Wait, it wasn't?)
Imagine if the 360 didn't RROD. (I probably would have heard about the 360 a lot less.)
Imagine if the PS3 wasn't $600. (I think this should really be "Imagine if the PS3 would have kept full BC." Though I would have saved a good chunk of change...)
Imagine if the six-axis worked.(Works much better then the Move.  Honestly it works well.)
Imagine if PSN never got hacked. (Wipeout HD NOOOOOO)
Imagine if Kinect games incorporated the controller. (lol, that be hilarious.  I need to grab this ball back here Noooo I need to hit a button... Wait I'm suppose to run in place while using the analog stick to control where I go... Pretend the controller is a pistol to use it???...  NOOO thats not my arm its a cord.)

EnnerNovember 21, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Imagine if Kinect games incorporated the controller.

Steel Battalion: Heavy Armor will use Kinect in conjunction with the controller.
http://www.giantbomb.com/you-are-half-of-the-controller-in-steel-battalion-heavy-armor/17-5147/

You use the controller to move and shoot and the Kinect to manipulate the other vertical tank controls.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

BNM - You're right, that is just what I said.  Many of those issues WERE talked about... then forgotten.

The problem is that people cling tightly to Nintendo's past faults and let it influence their current and future beliefs.  Thus, Nintendo is treated as if their platforms have no third party games and are incapable of online play.

Could you imagine if the majority of MS discussion was predicated on the fallacy that the box doesn't work? Or that you could no longer use PSN for fear of information leaks?

Case in point, our friend Insanolord believes Nintendo has not gotten online "right."  Meanwhile, I've played hundreds of hours of Brawl, Kart, Tri, Conduit, GoldenEye, Pokemon, Phantasy Star Zero, FFCC, etc etc....

And I did it FOR FREE and WITHOUT DLC!! ..... not "right" indeed.

Enner - I absolutely applaud any exceptions because I think Kinect+controller would be a truly special leap forward in gaming.  But until that becomes the rule? It's still wasted potential don't you agree?

If you think Nintendo's online strategy as it stands right now doesn't need serious work you're delusional. Yes, there are good online games on Nintendo platforms, and they succeed despite the infrastructure, or lack thereof.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Their wireless is really slow too.

I'm not sure if better antennas fix that issue, but they really need to speed up the wireless connection. Waiting for a scene skip to reload in Netflix is sometimes like watching the clock before the bell rings in class.... it takes forever!!!

Online on the Wii is a very disjointed and broken system that is in desperate need of unification at an OS level. 3DS is a peek at whats to come (has that Nov. update happened yet? I wouldn't know since I haven't turned my 3DS on since I put Zelda II on hold 1-2 months ago) since they put an actual Universal OS at the core of the system, and I suspect that Wii U will address most concerns we have with the current state of affairs only to replace them with some other minor ones.


p.s. I'm sure there are plenty of people talking about how 360 is doing so well now because everyone is rebuying the system so that they have a version that won't RRoD on them 6 weeks after purchase(and then again 6 weeks after refurbuish... and then again and again...). Fortunately for MS, their library of games (& XBL) is just too good for most gamers to give up on once they've already invested the time and $$$

You should turn on your 3DS and put Mario 3D Land in it. It's fantastic, and in the same league as EAD Tokyo's other two Mario games.

TJ SpykeNovember 22, 2011

EAD Tokyo has actually made 3 Mario platforming games (meaning not counting stuff like Mario Kart Wii): Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, New Super Mario Bros. Wii. I really want Super Mario Land 3D Land, but can't afford to spend money on video games right now.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

EDIT: Nevermind, I think we've all made up our minds here.

I'm going to keep enjoying Nintendo's online functionality, and if some of you find it unacceptable, you certainly have that option of  buying a PS3 or 360 with an XBL subscription.

As long as people are ENJOYING gaming instead of just complaining about it... that's what's important.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

PRE-EDIT: So what changes would you make?

I'll assume that was originally directed at me so I'll just link you to here
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=34755.msg680114#msg680114

it's more or less wrapped up in the OP, but I'm sure there is plenty of room to get specific if you like.




edit: But I do have a question NinSage, have you played online through Steam, XBL or PSN? Anything other than a Nintendo system?

Quote from: NinSage

EDIT: Nevermind, I think we've all made up our minds here.

I'm going to keep enjoying Nintendo's online functionality, and if some of you find it unacceptable, you certainly have that option of  buying a PS3 or 360 with an XBL subscription.

As long as people are ENJOYING gaming instead of just complaining about it... that's what's important.

I already own a PS3 and a 360 with an Xbox Live subscription. That's how I know how bad Nintendo's service is in comparison, and why I want them to improve it.

Enjoying and complaining aren't mutually exclusive. I am absolutely loving Super Mario 3D Land right now, but that doesn't mean I can't also complain about Nintendo's online strategy. There are choices besides blind fanboyism and total hatred.

Quote from: TJ

EAD Tokyo has actually made 3 Mario platforming games (meaning not counting stuff like Mario Kart Wii): Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Galaxy 2, New Super Mario Bros. Wii. I really want Super Mario Land 3D Land, but can't afford to spend money on video games right now.

I'm fairly certain EAD Tokyo was not involved (at least in any significant way) in the making of New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and the always-reliable Wikipedia backs me up on that.

TJ SpykeNovember 22, 2011

You are right, I was checking a list of games from EAD and they combined all EAD studios (including Tokyo).

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

BNM - It was intended for Insano, but, as I said, I think everyone made their mind up already.

I play on Steam, yes, and having a dear gamer friend who won't touch Nintendo has forced me to play a lot of online PS3.  Honestly, they all play exactly the same.  The ONE game that was unplayable online?

*drum roll please*...... Street Fighter 4 on PS3.  It was pathetic.  IF we got a match connected, AND the other person didn't opt out of the match due because he didn't like our "n00b" status, it was a slide-show of a battle.

Thankfully, MvC3 has remedied that situation.  In my experience anyway.

Also, I've wanted to play my PSP MH game online, but oh, Sony won't let me unless I do ad hoc through a PS3.  Yes, let us all cast stones at Nintendo! At least my DS doesn't REQUIRE another purchase to get online.

Insano -

Never said enjoying and complaining are mutually exclusive.  But if you're complaining substantially more than enjoying? Guess what? YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!  Gaming is about fun, entertainment, the range of emotions it can inspire and the community of people involved.  Why do we let the media bring the headaches of the industry to us?

I've never tried try write any of you off as completely on thing or another.  My stance has always been that your enjoyment would BENEFIT from a ratio adjustment.  However, I know how easy it is to defend one's pride by writing that off as a "blind fandboyism" just because I really enjoy games a lot more than I complain about them (did you miss the part where I hate friend codes?).

Honestly, tell me how a "blind fanboy" can spend so much time, money, love and respect on Sony and Sega devices? And if I was so "blind" as to enjoy ALL companies, wouldn't that just mean I've found the right hobby?

I speak in defense of Nintendo because I see them get bashed CONSTANTLY (not really here, of course) and I just want things to be EQUAL.  Anyone attributing battle-lines to those philosophies or thinks I want people to find Nintendo SUPERIOR has strictly not-listened closely enough.  In this case, the only point I was illustrating was that if Sony/MS can make mistakes and people can be understanding of that reality of life, why is it so foreign a concept to ask the same for Nintendo?

Here's a thought: why don't you move your crusade against this kind of constant Nintendo bashing to a place where it's actually happening. You keep saying that you're not talking about this site, but you still go on and on about it.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

Because years ago I was doing just that.  Those places are all lost causes.  I'm sure you've been part of the discussions where I've detailed my bannings from Kotaku for asking why a story about a toddler wearing wiimote sleeves on her feet was "newsworthy" and for correcting Brian Ashcraft's twisting of facts regarding the (then unnamed) 3DS.

So, now I try to hang out with people who aren't caught up in the "hardcore" wars.  I hang out with the good people here, at my site, where me and several others have put our time and effort where our mouths are, at Negative World, and I glean news from all the other sites without involving myself in conversations from people who don't want to listen.

When a small fire like moaning about a completely functional, if imperfect, online service that is not nickel and dime-ing its uses pops up? I'll share my thoughts and if they are make enough sense to make people stop and question WHY they are dissatisfied? That's a mission accomplished.

Which gets back to my prior point, what good does it do to always focus on those imperfections? Game companies may be aware of the buzz online.  But none of them are letting us guide their decisions.  People talk as if constant complaints are for the good of the company they "love."  In that case, stop bringing everyone down and write the company a physical letter.  Write them once a week.  It will do a LOT more good than fueling a sub-culture that no game company wants to associate with.

So again, to clarify, anyone and everyone can voice their dissatisfaction.  But logic would dictate that A) we CHOOSE this hobby, if it gives you more pain than pleasure, you're doing something wrong and B) there's no practical benefit.  In fact, the more we let the industry and the media dictate our "feelings" the further we go down this rabbit whole of no more free map packs and games with padded play times for the sake of review numbers (it's a 1,000 game!... with 10 hours of content).  Call me crazy, but I think we can do better than that.

ShyGuyNovember 22, 2011

Keep up the good fight NinSage.

LittleIrvesNovember 22, 2011

Nothing to add here...
But I just finished Ghost Trick. Wow that was an awesome ending.

ejamerNovember 22, 2011

Quote from: LittleIrves

Nothing to add here...
But I just finished Ghost Trick. Wow that was an awesome ending.

A bunch of people complained about the ending of Ghost Trick, but I really liked it. More people should play that game!


Battlefield (and online gaming in general) isn't really my thing. Certainly would be nice if Nintendo could figure out how to improve their online infrastructure for the future though - lots of people care a lot more than I do about online options.

CericNovember 22, 2011

Hey, I'll Bite.

Quote from: NinSage

...
question WHY they are dissatisfied?
...

Why I'm not fond of the online experience on Wii.
Can't speak about Live.  Though I'm going to start with the elephant in the room the Wii Shop.  It is horribly horribly slow for the amount of information it gives.  It is also very layered.  This is in comparison to the only good faith comparable I can make which is PSN.  Preview channel same problem except the layering.

Friend notifications.  They don't exists.  Granted I don't use the Toast on my PS3 very often but, it be nice to know when say Maxi is on playing Monster Hunter to jump in and see if he like to hunt together.

Sort of related Wiispeak is terrible.

3DS
eShop slow for what it does.  I have a 24mb pipe and it takes a while to connect to and open the shop.  Not to mention how long it takes to download anything.

Friend Notifications; Sort of exists but not really.  Though my real beef with that is for some reason or another I can't add friends without being connected to the internet.  Which means I literally have only added UncleBob and Apdude because I keep remembering when I can't get internet for my 3DS. (Like in the car on a trip. Internet on phone can't tether.)

I think you can send messages I'm not really sure.

Those are my biggest gripe.  I would speak to not having a good API for using the networking ability from the anecdotal evidence but, since I don't have access to that type of documentation I'm not going to really say anything about that.  I also don't think they used a very good wireless chip.

Quote from: LittleIrves

Nothing to add here...
But I just finished Ghost Trick. Wow that was an awesome ending.

Oh man, isn't it so awesome? I love that game.

Side note: I think arguing over who's complaining as opposed to gaming and having fun is kind of pointless. This thread devolved into everyone complaining, so when someone makes a complaint about someone complaining about games more than playing them, it's kind of moot, as they're complaining about people complaining.

You know what I'm looking forward to? Mario Kart 7. I loved the online in Mario Kart Wii. It was one of two or three Wii games I ever really played online.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

Ceric -

That's all fair.  And I can understand being disappointed.  But Nintendo has made steps on the notifications and do the interface issues (layout and speed) really disrupt your hobby that much?  What's worse: unnecessarily long download times once or unnecessarily long load times between every segment of PS3/60 games?

All I'm trying to say is, everyone's got imperfections, what's the upside to focusing on one?


Neal -

That would make sense if we were complaining about complaining.  But a even the most casual analysis of any such discussion reveals a somewhat more complex situation.  =P

broodwarsNovember 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

do the interface issues (layout and speed) really disrupt your hobby that much?

Yes they do.  When it takes 3-5 minutes to navigate between three screens on the Wii Shop Channel at times, yes it really does disrupt my hobby that much.

Quote:

What's worse: unnecessarily long download times once or unnecessarily long load times between every segment of PS3/60 games?


You are aware that you're comparing two entirely different things that have nothing to do with each other, right?  And even the best game on the Wii IMO, Xenoblade, has some 15-25 second load times when transitioning between areas.  It's not that big a deal.

How about a nice game of chess?  ;)

Quote:

But if you're complaining substantially more than enjoying? Guess what? YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Heed your own advice, dude. :)

CericNovember 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

...
do the interface issues (layout and speed) really disrupt your hobby that much?
...

Yes.

Quote from: NinSage

What's worse: unnecessarily long download times once or unnecessarily long load times between every segment of PS3/60 games?

Can't Speak about the 360 but, I can't think of a game that had load times any longer then the Wii that I've played on the PS3.  Definitely not unnecessarily long.  I mean Portal 2 for PS3 takes just as long as it does on the PC.  Actually less if you count starting Steam in that.  That's the best comparison I can make for speed.

Quote from: NinSage

All I'm trying to say is, everyone's got imperfections, what's the upside to focusing on one?

Conciseness and Focus of Discussion in a given area.  Losing focus, Loses points and Scatters Understanding.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Ceric -

That's all fair.  And I can understand being disappointed.  But Nintendo has made steps on the notifications and do the interface issues (layout and speed) really disrupt your hobby that much?  What's worse: unnecessarily long download times once or unnecessarily long load times between every segment of PS3/60 games?

All I'm trying to say is, everyone's got imperfections, what's the upside to focusing on one?

Is there really a problem with people wanting more for their time and money when they know there is better out there?

Nintendo has been taking baby steps forward when it comes to online (and many other things) while the competition is taking leaps. Standards have been set and at the very least we want some (if not all) of those things and more on our gaming console of choice.

Xbox set the standard for online console gaming back in 2001. that was 10 years ago. MS have been raising the bar for that standard ever since.
Fast forward to 2011. Nintendo hasn't even attempted to match the 2001 standard until very recently on 3DS. That is 10 years later.

You may be satisfied with the absolute bare minimum of effort being put into your online gaming experience, but other people have come to expect more and Nintendo is more than slow to deliver.

Trying taking your current computer and putting your old 56k modem back in and then come back and surf this site. Chances are that you have gotten so used to your broadband modem loading things so damn quick, that you will rip that 56k modem out and smash it to pieces so you can get back to your cable modem. Nintendo has been holding onto that 56k modem for far too long now. It's time to get with the program and embrace the tech around us.
They don't have to wait till they can reinvent the wheel, just need to build a better car.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

Keep in mind, I tried to say hours ago that everyone had made up their own mind on this issue and we should move on!

So...
To all those who find that Nintendo's online unacceptable.  I'm sorry your experience has not been better!

Brood -

If it really takes 3-5 minutes for you to navigate those menus, and you don't get at least 20x that much enjoyment from the game then yea, I guess your hobby isn't treating you so well.  I've yet to experience or even observe such a scenario.

I know load times and download times are not the same technological action.  But they are both waiting that people don't enjoy, right? If they can be patient for multiple mid-game loads, it stands to reason they could be patient for one-time downloads.  That's just what makes sense to me.  You don't have to see it that way.


Neal -

Still apples and oranges.


Ceric -

Care to elaborate? I mean, the download only takes a few minutes, and then you have a game you wanted.  Where does the experience get ruined?

Also, I need you to rephrase that bit on focus.  I don't think anyone could explain what you were trying to say there =P


BNM -

I'm glad you brought up economics.  We do get what we paid for.  The Wii/PS3 have (in my experience) very similar online reliabilities.  The PS3 has more bells and whistles, which is part of why its price tag is so much higher.  The 360 has the best online, but you have to pay extra to use it ... this all seems fair to me.  It's not about "settling" for a 56k modem or some extreme scenario.  It's about what's fair to get in return for what we give.  Nintendo products have online that works. Period.  Could they be better? Sure.  Could Nintendo charge us to make it better? Sure.

Also, Nintendo does take baby steps and the others do take leaps.  Guess what? Leaps require risk and money!! As I just showed, we pay more for those leaps.  It's not like the other companies merely opt to give us more out of the goodness of their hearts.  Also, taking leaps involves risk.  Sony's leap meant a $600 price tag and a console you could fry an egg on.  MS's leap meant RROD's and an online subscription.  Both companies "leaped" at the shiny new concept of DLC and now we pay for that.

~~~

Nintendo simply isn't the lazy, slow-pokes people make them out to be.  Some things they do the bare minimum, but it's always there, it doesn't rip us off and it works (ie: online).  Many other times, they pioneer...

Kinnect, Move, touch-based handhelds, Avatars, PS Home, the analog stick ... when you look at who is usually playing catch-up with who, I just don't see the justification for being dissatisfied with Nintendo's "progress."


Now, if no one has anything new to add, I don't think this conversation needs to go any further.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Neither of MS or Sony's leaps in online have anything to do with their console pricing.

Sony's $600 price tag had nothing to do with PSN and MS's RRoD had nothing to do with Live.

And if you rewind back in the conversation you would remember that Nintendo had been experimenting with online long before Sony or MS even thought about getting into the console business. There is no reason that the competition should decidedly have them out matched in features and consistency when they were the pioneer in the area at one point. There is nothing that Nintendo has done with their online system that even approaches Live nor Steam and they have had a decade to come up with something.

Nintendo may have done good with a game or 2 on the Wii and things are looking up for the 3DS, but they are nowhere near competitive in the online network field (when it comes to consoles) and even Nintendo is aware of this (points back at link provided in a previous post), so I'm not quite sure why you pretend like the problem doesn't exist when Nintendo is actively seeking to rectify this issue and they are not shy about letting us know it.

CericNovember 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

...
Ceric -
Care to elaborate? I mean, the download only takes a few minutes, and then you have a game you wanted.  Where does the experience get ruined?
...

As long as I see progress I may be bummed about a game taking a while to load but, that I can understand.  Its the speed of the experience especially since I know what it would take and how long this type of program normally take.  When I start the shop it shouldn't take so long that I start to worry the shop has froze or had an error, which it has on me.  When I go through I shouldn't be able to to go and get a drink when selecting a menu.  Considering how much back and forth I need to do it makes simple task excruciatingly long.  Let me give an analog example:

Your living room and Kitchen are opposite sides of the house.  You have to go through 2 doors to get there, one into the living room one into the kitchen.  Every door in your house takes 30 seconds to open and close automatically.  It takes about 2 minute to walk the length of your house.  In total it take about 3 minutes to go from inside the living room to inside the Kitchen.  You would like a drink of water and some chips while watching Mario Vs My Little Ponies: Friendship to Destruction.  You go to the kitchen get a drink of water and your child like some help so, you go into their room after leaving the kitchen.  You get back into the Living Room but you forgot Chips.  You make the Trek back into the Kitchen to get your chips.  Once inside the living room you've noticed that now you don't have the time to finish MvMLP:FtD.

Realistically speaking it may take 2 minutes to get across a house but, there is normally no reason that it takes 30 seconds to open a regular door in a house.  I know that.  You know that.  It starts to become an annoying environment when actions take vastly disproportionate amount of time to what they normally would.  Its just not an enjoyable environment to inhabit.

Quote from: NinSage

...
Also, I need you to rephrase that bit on focus.  I don't think anyone could explain what you were trying to say there =P
...

To have in-depth discussion on any given topic you need to focus on different aspects of the topic in turn.  A very broad focus gives you a very broad discussion. 

That's not exactly what I want to get across but I doubt you want me to keep trying to get what I really want out again or we'll end up with something like the above.

On the Past Nintendo Online Issue compared to what Nintendo had in the past Online wise they have regressed.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

BNM-

Sorry, I thought you were speaking about general company philosophies there.  My mistake.

Strictly regarding online services, it doesn't cost Sony any money to provide those bells and whistles? They don't require any additional processing power? The 360 can be used online without a subscription fee?

mmm...

As for the long history, online simply hasn't been a focus for Nintendo.  Their focus has been on game quality, and local multiplayer.  I know it would be awesome if every company was great at everything.  But do you think Nintendo's focus was a mistake?

As time has moved on and the popularity of online is increasing, yes, Nintendo is starting to focus on it more.  So, what's the problem?  For most people when a Wii/DS game has online functionality they are interested in, they've enjoyed it.  That's why Brawl and Kart and Tri and Animal Crossing and CoD have been as popular as they are on the platform.  And in the future, it looks like it will only get better.  So, yea, I'm happy with that.

Ceric -

Yes, I'm granting you that your experience with the INTERFACE has been terrible.  But how does that spill over in to ruining the game/overall experience? Which, I presume, is why you're accessing the interface in the first place.

Also, no one is making an argument against focused discussions.  This is why I think you were confused.

CericNovember 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

...
Yes, I'm granting you that your experience with the INTERFACE has been terrible.  But how does that spill over in to ruining the game/overall experience? Which, I presume, is why you're accessing the interface in the first place.

Simply put I have to find a game to have an experience with.  Which a terrible interface hinders me in doing so.  The interface is a large portion of the overall experience.  At the moment it is a barrier that I need to overcome to get access to games that I want to play.  It shouldn't be like that.  How would you feel about getting Groceries if you had to climb a 20ft wall to get into the Grocery store?  Navigate an obstacle course to get the peas. Present your Social Security Card, Driver License, and Proof of Address when you checked out.  It feels that limiting.

Now look at Netflix on the other hand.  It looks at what you have done.  Starts to suggest what it thinks you will like.  If that's not what you want it has a convenient search.  Most things on Netflix only takes drilling down 3-4 levels deep.  Even that takes less time then just opening the eShop.  It can be satisfying just to browse and read about the movies.

Same with Amazon.  An inviting shopping experience can really enhance the purchasing process plus your mentality going into a game.  I will be more forgiving and probably enjoy a game more if I have a good experience obtaining it.  There is less of a bar to entry.  I know there has been several games that were ruined for me because they couldn't meet the high expectation that were placed on them due to the difficulty in obtaining them.

Quote from: NinSage

Also, no one is making an argument against focused discussions.  This is why I think you were confused.

I never said anyone was.  I was just simply answering the question you posed to me that was:

Quote from: NinSage

All I'm trying to say is, everyone's got imperfections, what's the upside to focusing on one?

The Answer is simply Focused Discussion.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

BNM-

Sorry, I thought you were speaking about general company philosophies there.  My mistake.

Strictly regarding online services, it doesn't cost Sony any money to provide those bells and whistles? They don't require any additional processing power? The 360 can be used online without a subscription fee?

mmm...

As for the long history, online simply hasn't been a focus for Nintendo.  Their focus has been on game quality, and local multiplayer.  I know it would be awesome if every company was great at everything.  But do you think Nintendo's focus was a mistake?

As time has moved on and the popularity of online is increasing, yes, Nintendo is starting to focus on it more.  So, what's the problem?  For most people when a Wii/DS game has online functionality they are interested in, they've enjoyed it.  That's why Brawl and Kart and Tri and Animal Crossing and CoD have been as popular as they are on the platform.  And in the future, it looks like it will only get better.  So, yea, I'm happy with that.

Actually, I've never played Brawl online, but that's only because of how bad I heard the online experience is for that game. (and how bad I would probably get my ass kicked against NWR veterans :P: )

But I'm not even talking about gameplay and local multi. I'm strictly speaking about the online network in it's entirety. Over 25 years ago Nintendo started dabbling in online. Even with baby steps they should be farther ahead of where they are today especially when others (such as MS with XBL & Valve with Steamworks) have already paved the path.
There are certain games where the online works fine, but there are others where it's just slow, broken and completely ruins any willingness to put up with it.

I can't tell you how many failed attempts there were at playing The Conduit way back when, or how bad the SSBB online was. Even if you counter with how well online was handled in MKWii or maybe a game like MH3 (haven't played it and don't know how the online turned out), it doesn't change the fact that Nintendo's Online Experience is a very broken and inconsistent system due to the way it was set up.

Every game is independent of the system, there is no unification of anything, everything is really damn slow, you have no way of scheduling anything with anyone without using some outside system and even when everything comes together, it's a C+ effort at best.

I'm not saying that there is no enjoyment to be had in any specific individual game, but I'm looking at the big picture here, and we Nintendo customers are not getting what we deserve on the online interface front.

It's like buying a DVD player that is technically as capable as any other DVD player out there, but only has a play, stop and skip forward/back buttons on the remote. Yes, it works and I get to watch my movies, but what if I want to pause or skip to scene or access the menu, turn on subtitles, replay in slowmo and actually navigate the menu.
That would be pretty unacceptable in most peoples point of view even if you can still watch and enjoy the movie like everyone else. That gimped lacking remote is like Nintendo's Online efforts to this point in time. It could and should be so much more.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

Ceric -

So why do people across the net not have "focused discussion" on Sony and MS's shortcomings?  Why have some multi-platform media outlets let the focus on Nintendo's shortcoming dictate that they don't even really cover them anymore? That's the kind of "focus" that is relevant to this discussion.  Not how in depth something is discussed.

I'm sorry your use of the Nintendo Shop Channel has been like scaling a 20ft wall.  :D

~~~

So, I get it... Ceric, BNM, Broodwars, Neal and (I'm sure) many others find Nintendo's online services unacceptable and aggravating.  In addition, they feel Nintendo's total mistakes outweigh that of any competitor's, and should thusly be focused on.
I am willing to acknowledge and accept this reality.

Maybe then you all could acknowledge and accept that many, many people find Nintendo's online services acceptable and enjoyable? And that many, many people don't find Nintendo's mistakes to be so drastically different than any given competitor's? And thus, not worth harping on?

... I'm just trying to find a way for us to all peacefully come away from this discussion with something.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Or maybe because this is a Nintendo site we happen to focus on things related to Nintendo (the good and the bad)*

and just because you and alot of other people are perfectly happy in their one bedroom apartment with all the basic necessities, doesn't mean they would't be much happier in that 2 story 4 bedroom with all the bells and whistles including the pool & spa in the back.






*not that we don't have threads dedicated to Sony & MS for raggin on their misfortunes or giving them props when deserved too.

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

*sigh*... I tried...

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Or maybe because this is a Nintendo site we happen to focus on things related to Nintendo (the good and the bad)*

And you find it equal across the general culture? I wouldn't have a problem if it was only coming up because it was a Nintendo discussion. Sheesh.  It should have been painfully obvious from the very beginning that the only issue is when ALL ELSE IS THE SAME Nintendo still gets bashed with more frequency and intensity.

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

and just because you and alot of other people are perfectly happy in their one bedroom apartment with all the basic necessities, doesn't mean they would't be much happier in that 2 story 4 bedroom with all the bells and whistles including the pool & spa in the back.

Except that with Nintendo platforms there are actually a lot of other benefits.  Such as 1st party games, pioneering technology and extra money in your pocket to buy more games.  So, fit those in to your analogy however you need to.

broodwarsNovember 22, 2011

Dude, if you enjoyed Nintendo's pathetically broken online service, fine.  Good for you.  But let's not pretend that the service was actually good or well-thought out for anyone's benefit other than Nintendo's.

You remember when I told you that I've seen the Shop Channel routinely take between 3-5 minutes to load between 3 pages of content, assuming the service even loads at all (I've seen that shop crash at least 1/5 times I've tried to access it)?  You asked how bad that was when you eventually get your game.  Well, let me put this in context: it routinely takes between 3-5 seconds to load that same amount of content on PSN, and I didn't pay for that service either until I got my Playstation Plus subscription earlier this year.  When I can get just as much if not more enjoyment out of that PSN experience at a fraction of the time investment with the same cost to the consumer, how can you say that Nintendo isn't woefully behind the rest of the industry on online?

Now, there are really terrible issues with PSN as well.  The download times are well beyond unacceptable, as people who see my posts on Twitter can tell you whenever I download a new title (and then complain that it'll take 1-2 hours to download 1-2 GB of data).  Game patches and system firmware updates take forever to download and install (though less these days since my PS+ subscription lets me download and install them during the night when I'm not playing).  The matchmaking is also pretty spotty at times, though usually it's fine.  That said, it is in a whole other league from Nintendo's online experience, and unlike Nintendo Sony has justified my faith that the next incarnation of PSN will be much better for all the lessons they've learned this generation.

And the sad thing is, the experience is so bad by comparison on the Wii because Nintendo has just never cared about online.  They didn't feel that online was ever going to be a critical aspect of their own games, and they have traditionally made their money in retail not digital.  As a fan of traditional Single-Player retail games and someone who generally avoids online play, I can respect that.  But in typical Nintendo fashion, they didn't give a crap if that made things worse for anyone else so long as it suited their own needs, and so we ended up with the Wii and 3DS' online infrastructure.  It could have been so much better and Nintendo should have had the experience to make it so, but they just didn't care.

Could the Wii U's online experience be much better?  It should be, and I hope it is.  That said, given how poor the 3DS e-Shop apparently is, I really don't have a reason to believe that Nintendo's learned their lesson.

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Or maybe because this is a Nintendo site we happen to focus on things related to Nintendo (the good and the bad)*

And you find it equal across the general culture? I wouldn't have a problem if it was only coming up because it was a Nintendo discussion. Sheesh.  It should have been painfully obvious from the very beginning that the only issue is when ALL ELSE IS THE SAME Nintendo still gets bashed with more frequency and intensity.

Stop complaining about the general gaming culture here. We know it's bad; that's why we're here instead of there. You're ruining this site by bringing your complaints about it here.

Quote:

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

and just because you and alot of other people are perfectly happy in their one bedroom apartment with all the basic necessities, doesn't mean they would't be much happier in that 2 story 4 bedroom with all the bells and whistles including the pool & spa in the back.

Except that with Nintendo platforms there are actually a lot of other benefits.  Such as 1st party games, pioneering technology and extra money in your pocket to buy more games.  So, fit those in to your analogy however you need to.

He was specifically referring to the online system, and it's pretty clear that that's what he was doing. Those points have nothing to do with the online system. They are good things about Nintendo, but irrelevant to this discussion.

BlackNMild2k1November 22, 2011

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

Or maybe because this is a Nintendo site we happen to focus on things related to Nintendo (the good and the bad)*

And you find it equal across the general culture? I wouldn't have a problem if it was only coming up because it was a Nintendo discussion. Sheesh.  It should have been painfully obvious from the very beginning that the only issue is when ALL ELSE IS THE SAME Nintendo still gets bashed with more frequency and intensity.

Stop complaining about the general gaming culture here. We know it's bad; that's why we're here instead of there. You're ruining this site by bringing your complaints about it here.

Quote:

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

and just because you and alot of other people are perfectly happy in their one bedroom apartment with all the basic necessities, doesn't mean they would't be much happier in that 2 story 4 bedroom with all the bells and whistles including the pool & spa in the back.

Except that with Nintendo platforms there are actually a lot of other benefits.  Such as 1st party games, pioneering technology and extra money in your pocket to buy more games.  So, fit those in to your analogy however you need to.

He was specifically referring to the online system, and it's pretty clear that that's what he was doing. Those points have nothing to do with the online system. They are good things about Nintendo, but irrelevant to this discussion.

You stole my response!! Both of them!!!

but I do have something else to add

Quote from: NinSage

*sigh*... I tried...

You don't have to fight for the last word you know. ;)

NinSageNovember 22, 2011

Broodwars -

You don't have to explain yourself to me, friend.

Insano -

You agree the bashing is bad out there, here it is quite good but I address the bad spots when they pop up.  The only way that could "ruin" things and not preserve them is if people choose to cling harder to their negativity in light of what I say.  That is their choice, and thus, their problem.

Insano/BNM -

No, in his/your analogy illustrated that in order to be happy with one facet of Nintendo's service, your entire "environment" would be mediocre.

BNM -

It's not about the last word, it's trying to give some value and closure to the discussion so we don't DO IT ALL AGAIN next time.  See the difference? Contrary to what must be popular belief since I get ganged up on by the same few people so much, I hate arguments.  I like comradery, community and discussions.  So forgive me if I try to steer things in those directions.



Chozo GhostNovember 22, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

I've seen the Shop Channel routinely take between 3-5 minutes to load between 3 pages of content, assuming the service even loads at all (I've seen that shop crash at least 1/5 times I've tried to access it)?  You asked how bad that was when you eventually get your game.  Well, let me put this in context: it routinely takes between 3-5 seconds to load that same amount of content on PSN,

Its possible that could be hardware related as opposed to online. It is no secret that the Wii hardware is weaker than the PS3, so it makes sense that something which loads instantaneously on the PS3 might take longer on the Wii. Before I got a new computer I was using one from 2002 which really struggled and took a long time to load content heavy websites with lots of pictures and bells and whistles, but on this new computer it loads just as fast as it can download basically... and the internet connection was the same so it was the hardware that was the culprit.

This problem will probably be resolved with the Wii U. I don't think there is much Nintendo can do with the Wii, so its just something you will have to deal with for another year and then after that when you move on to the next system you will forget all about these problems.

If you hate arguments so much, stop starting them. This was a perfectly civil discussion before you came in here and started berating people for not being satisfied with Nintendo's online infrastructure.

NinSageNovember 23, 2011

Insano -

Oh yes, incendiary indeed!

Quote from: NinSage

Imagine if Battlefield was GameCube exclusive.
Imagine if the PlayStation was the N64.
Imagine if the 360 didn't RROD.
Imagine if the PS3 wasn't $600.
Imagine if the six-axis worked.
Imagine if PSN never got hacked.
Imagine if Kinect games incorporated the controller.

It's nice to learn new bits of history that we didn't before, but it's foolish how game culture obsesses over Nintendo's sins.  While having the presence of mind to regard other companies' mistakes as "oh please, move on already!"

Sh*t happens, enjoy games.

Man, oh man, telling people not to obsess and dwell on negatives for the sake of enjoying games.  I sure did come here picking a fight, eh?

Before I chimed in there wasn't a nice discussion, it was just a lot of people depressing themselves for no reason.  People avoid that mistake so easily regarding other companies' mistakes.  They can be happier and do the same for Nintendo.

BlackNMild2k1November 23, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Insano/BNM -

No, in his/your analogy illustrated that in order to be happy with one facet of Nintendo's service, your entire "environment" would be mediocre.

Actually my analogy and my entire argument as I have already pointed out is entirely focused on the Online Network. Not on Nintendo and their overall user experience.

Nintendo's support of online is mediocre at best and that is being very generous. end of story.


edit:

Quote from: NinSage

Insano -

Oh yes, incendiary indeed!

Quote from: NinSage

It's nice to learn new bits of history that we didn't before, but it's foolish how game culture obsesses over Nintendo's sins.  While having the presence of mind to regard other companies' mistakes as "oh please, move on already!"

Sh*t happens, enjoy games.

Man, oh man, telling people not to obsess and dwell on negatives for the sake of enjoying games.  I sure did come here picking a fight, eh?

Before I chimed in there wasn't a nice discussion, it was just a lot of people depressing themselves for no reason.  People avoid that mistake so easily regarding other companies' mistakes.  They can be happier and do the same for Nintendo.

Are you saying that you weren't saying that we were being unfairly harsh to Nintendo or even just being easy on everyone that was not Nintendo and then expect us to not respond.


Then you purposely take a narrow discussion on one topic and try to fit it into a much broader topic to help your own failing argument and expect us not to call you on it.


At the same time you blame the rest of the world for being shit, except for us and a few other places on your exclusive list, but then come and complain to us about it as if we were part of the problem that you said we weren't, but expect us to just roll with it.


Now you take your baited comment and try to sell it back to us as bait-free when I already called it bait in my first reply to it (hover your mouse or just quote it), but it's all good right? You were just trying to cheer us up because we are so... depressed?

Quote from: NinSage

Insano -

Oh yes, incendiary indeed!

Quote from: NinSage

Imagine if Battlefield was GameCube exclusive.
Imagine if the PlayStation was the N64.
Imagine if the 360 didn't RROD.
Imagine if the PS3 wasn't $600.
Imagine if the six-axis worked.
Imagine if PSN never got hacked.
Imagine if Kinect games incorporated the controller.

It's nice to learn new bits of history that we didn't before, but it's foolish how game culture obsesses over Nintendo's sins.  While having the presence of mind to regard other companies' mistakes as "oh please, move on already!"

Sh*t happens, enjoy games.

Man, oh man, telling people not to obsess and dwell on negatives for the sake of enjoying games.  I sure did come here picking a fight, eh?

Before I chimed in there wasn't a nice discussion, it was just a lot of people depressing themselves for no reason.  People avoid that mistake so easily regarding other companies' mistakes.  They can be happier and do the same for Nintendo.

Most of us here don't want to just ignore Nintendo's problems and refuse to talk about them like you do. We like to have discussions about the issues, and talk about how they might fix or improve them. I can't speak for everyone, but in my case I wouldn't say that that would be depressing myself for no reason, because it doesn't depress me, and it's not for no reason. As I and many others have pointed out, we say lots of positive things about Nintendo here too, as well as positive and negative things about other companies.

NinSageNovember 23, 2011

aaaaand this is why I tried to just say "nevermind - we've all made up our minds" so long ago.

Cuz now it's just putting words in my mouth, ignoring the subject and trying to make things personal.  Anyone enjoying this? Anyone learning anything? Didn't think so.

BlackNMild2k1November 23, 2011

<-- last word ;)

CericNovember 23, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

I'll bite.

Quote from: NinSage

Imagine if Battlefield was GameCube exclusive. (Hey, You got Your Dude-bro in my Mario.  You got Your Mario in My Dude-Bro.  Mario Bro.  The brothers are from anotha motha. *fist Bump*)
Imagine if the PlayStation was the N64. (Wait, it wasn't?)
Imagine if the 360 didn't RROD. (I probably would have heard about the 360 a lot less.)
Imagine if the PS3 wasn't $600. (I think this should really be "Imagine if the PS3 would have kept full BC." Though I would have saved a good chunk of change...)
Imagine if the six-axis worked.(Works much better then the Move.  Honestly it works well.)
Imagine if PSN never got hacked. (Wipeout HD NOOOOOO)
Imagine if Kinect games incorporated the controller. (lol, that be hilarious.  I need to grab this ball back here Noooo I need to hit a button... Wait I'm suppose to run in place while using the analog stick to control where I go... Pretend the controller is a pistol to use it???...  NOOO thats not my arm its a cord.)

I thought these where clever. 

Quote from: BlackNMild2k1

<-- last word ;)

QFT

In all honesty, I have much greater issues with PSN than anything else. I just like Nintendo more so I'd rather talk about that.

AlexFinlayNovember 25, 2011

Coming from someone who's had the wii before boot0 got fixed, uses shop channel alot and has completly soft modded there wii till there is nothing yet.

That idiot complaining about 3-5 minute wait times, mate one update your wii or fix it because yours clearly isn't working very well, 3-5 SECONDS is what i have to wait, which is what i have to wait for my Xbox.

My views:
Yes the wii has no way of online comunication like the Xbox, owait they actually have something u can buy to talk to your mates, HOWEVER they dont have the headset type feature that PS3 has.
Online gaming experience:
never lagged, never been booted out something i can't say about Xbox yet i have to pay for it

Playing mw3 or any other games i ireguarly lagg outof mw3, blackops battlefield and sometimes often completly disconnect from XBL even on a wired connection yet hasn't happoned with my wii.

As Nin *person with some brains* has said, its your opinion YOUR experience, but YOUR experience isn't everyones.

I personally find the wii fine, as not every has to talk to mates to play a single player game.

Conclusion: if you dont like it go sell it because why complain about something 24/7 if your not gonna go do something about it.

PS half the crap you say about nintendo is utter b******t

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