Topic: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum

[Evan_B]

Did you play Sin and Punishment- Star Successor, Ian? Because that's a really good game with really good motion controls.

[Ian Sane]

Did you play Sin and Punishment- Star Successor, Ian? Because that's a really good game with really good motion controls.

That game has Classic Controller support so I probably just used that.  It's been years so I honestly can't remember.

[Evan_B]

I see.

I think motion controls work best when input is restricted. Cabal shooters, and the like.

[BranDonk Kong]

I guess it was just the first batch released this morning. IGN gave it a 7.5, GameSpot gave it a 7.0, but then Polygon refused to even review it and all the others I saw were equivalent to a 5/10. I still want to play it.

[Soren]

I still want to play it because I think I'm going to end up loving the controls. The reaction I had with Splatoon was also a big factor.

[broodwars]

I still want to play it because I think I'm going to end up loving the controls. The reaction I had with Splatoon was also a big factor.

Nice retro Jazz logo.  Not my favorite logo (obviously), but it does have a certain charm to it.

[sudoshuff]

Since there is often an inverse relationship between the things "traditional gamers" like and what I like, the middling to low review scores may have actually caused an uptick in my interest.  Especially since most of the criticism revolves around the control scheme, which I think I will be able to get used to. 

I guess it was just the first batch released this morning. IGN gave it a 7.5, GameSpot gave it a 7.0, but then Polygon refused to even review it and all the others I saw were equivalent to a 5/10. I still want to play it.

Wait...Polygon refused to review it?  That actually makes me want to play it even more...

[Ian Sane]

Refusing to review a game, unless it's like some pro-Nazi game or something, is pretty stupid.  Play it and if you don't like it, let us know why.  Isn't that what a review is for?

[Enner]

If what is in question is the Polygon appraisal, the author did detail the aspects of the game that lead to refusing to playing the game enough for a proper review.

[Order.RSS]

Saw elsewhere that the reviews are supposedly 'bad', but honestly I'm mainly seeing a whole bunch of 7s and 8s. Even metacritic names it mixed/average with a 72 rating. That's not even that low though right? Might be stubborn here, but my main takeaway is simply that the controls take getting used to at best, or just kinda don't work well at worst. Don't think that'll be an issue for me since I'll be playing this in co-op anyway.


Anyone here give it a go yet? Hoping to pick it up soon myself.

[Soren]

Totilo at Kotaku supposedly figured out a way to make the game's controls more bearable. But you can go read it on their review because I fell like if I post them here it's just going to incite another long tired rant by the usual suspects.

[Ian Sane]

I read Kotaku's review and their description of the controls turns me off as much as the descriptions of Kid Icarus Uprising's controls turned me off of that game.  It sounds so unwieldy and unintuitive that the only way anyone would come up with it is to try to "prove" the validity of a controller idea that hasn't caught on.  The way they describe it sounds so bad that I wonder if the devs themselves actually enjoyed playing the game with it.  The design wasn't "make a great game" it was "make a game using this goofy controller idea Miyamoto came up with".

Looking at two screens at once seems complicated enough but then you also have to keep the controller still when you don't intend to move the crosshair.  I figure while my head is bobbing up and down between the TV and Gamepad that the controller is probably going to move a bit.  Why not make me peddle a stationary bike while you're at it?  And then you fight the controls to play a rehash of an N64 game?  Like all this trouble doesn't even have some industry-changing game-of-the-year behind it?  All you get is the same sort of thing that a console from 20 years ago did better because the controls weren't needlessly weird?

[Mop it up]

Saw elsewhere that the reviews are supposedly 'bad', but honestly I'm mainly seeing a whole bunch of 7s and 8s. Even metacritic names it mixed/average with a 72 rating. That's not even that low though right?

The thing is, most reviewers don't give out scores lower than 6s, and even 7s aren't too common. So, a 72 average is pretty low based on the inflated scores given out by most reviewers.

I don't think most Nintendo games appeal very much to the average reviewer though, so I don't put much stock in them.

[Phil]

I don't put any stock into reviews of games with alternative controls since the whole Wii thing.


Anyway, I played Corneria, and I just tilted the GamePad to aim at enemies while looking at the TV screen the entire time. Worked wonderfully. Then I faced off in all-range mode against a boss, and using both screens to get into position to aim and take down the boss's weak points was a lot of fun. I got 276 points out of the 300 for a gold medal my first go-round.


I think the Gyrowing sections are a bit slow, but once you get through them the first time they go by much faster. Also, the Walker was confusing at first, but I learned to hold the ZL button and the left stick to strafe enemy fire and take down foes without needing to use the GamePad screen.


Really enjoying this one.

[Oedo]

There's a meaningful difference between a game that is not good and a game that is highly divisive that an aggregate review score can't capture. The Legend of Legacy fell into that trap last year. For most people, either you loved it like I did or you could not stand it (and I get the feeling that Star Fox Zero is headed the same way). That's not the same as a game that the majority of people can agree is just decent, but an aggregate review score treats them the same.

As for the game itself, after spending some time with it today, yeah, the heavy integration of motion controls is a questionable design decision. This definitely does not fall in line with Nintendo's often repeated goal of making games that are accessible to a wide audience. Kids or non-gamers are not going to pick up this control scheme easily, if they can do it at all. I can see that side of the criticism. Taking the controls as a given, though, they work fine. I haven't messed around with the sensitivity settings yet, but even on default, the motion controls are tight. You can move to a target within your cockpit view quickly without completely veering off in that direction if you try to do it too fast. The two screens part takes some getting used to, but overall I'm having fun playing this way so far. It'd be really fun in co-op (at least for the person with the gamepad).

Then I faced off in all-range mode against a boss, and using both screens to get into position to aim and take down the boss's weak points was a lot of fun. I got 276 points out of the 300 for a gold medal my first go-round.

Man, I don't think I've gotten particularly close to gold in any of the stages so far. I'm just happy to avoid bronze right now. I guess picking up the controls is even easier for a lot of people than I might give it credit for.

[Phil]

Well, really there's just one medal to get for high score along with the other four (one for getting three gold rings with the medal icons on them), and I don't know how to get the others. I think one was because I did a Mission Accomplished instead of a Mission Complete.


Anyway, if you beat your score but don't get gold, that original score is the bronze one, and the newest score is silver. I hope that made sense! :X

[Oedo]

Ah, I thought since they display the score you need for gold next to that trophy that there was a set score for silver and bronze too. That makes sense though, I probably didn't catch it because I haven't replayed a level yet.

[Phil]

Yeah, there are five medals to earn each level, and only one is for a high score.

[sudoshuff]

The thing is, most reviewers don't give out scores lower than 6s, and even 7s aren't too common.

Review inflation is definitely a real thing!  I'm not exactly sure why it is happening though. For students, grade inflation is all correlated with how strong of a signal grades are for scholarships, careers, and grad school.  I wonder if game scores climb up because readers prefer more positive outcomes?


Back to the topic, I've played the first few levels and the controls haven't prevented me from completely enjoying the experience.  My strategy: shoot and aim using the TV screen as much as possible and only look down at the game pad if it is clear you need a precision shot. 

[MagicCow64]

My concern is that there seems to be a split between "the controls have a steep learning curve" and "the controls have a steep learning curve and the level design is lackluster and the non-arwing vehicles suck."

Any feedback on that aspect? Also, I'm confused about the actual game structure. Can you replay levels at will to find alternate exits and try for medals, or do you have to start from scratch from the beginning of the campaign? It sounds like you can't do certain things on the first run, which is confusing.

[Evan_B]

The thing is, most reviewers don't give out scores lower than 6s, and even 7s aren't too common.

Review inflation is definitely a real thing!  I'm not exactly sure why it is happening though. For students, grade inflation is all correlated with how strong of a signal grades are for scholarships, careers, and grad school.  I wonder if game scores climb up because readers prefer more positive outcomes?

It's because the video game industry is far less mainstream than that of other graded forms of entertainment, therefore the need to sell a product is higher than the level of satisfaction or artistic integrity. Consider some of the largest releases of the past year, in which reviews of games needing patches, additional content, or overly reliant on franchise power without much forward thinking received unwarranted scores despite these elements. The consumerist hype is far more important a factor in video games.

That's an awfully cynical view, however. Sometimes, games are well-made from artistic and technical levels but lack in other areas. Should they be considered bad just because their gameplay is weak? Does the story make up for this? These are all elements that should go into video game reviews, but I highly doubt that is the actual case for inflated scores. If so, Star Fox would be receiving even lower scores because of its technical instability and overall lack of originality.

I honestly wonder why people were clamoring for another entry in the franchise, or even obsess over it at all. It's honestly one of Nintendo's weakest IPs and only features one game that is truly beloved- and even then, its more of a nostalgic love of the atmosphere of the game and not really its gameplay. At least, that's what Nintendo seems to think, since they've taken painstaking steps towards recreating the look, sound, and story of Star Fox 64.


Then again, I get all hot and flustered over Paper Mario, so my opinion probably means jack ****.

[Soren]

So far for my first playthrough it has been Corneria>Sector Alpha>Area 3>Zoness>Sector Beta>Titania. Titania has had the best boss fight overall and it's crazy because it was in a Landmaster.

I've played with all of the different vehicles and I have to say every one of them has a learning curve. I had trouble aiming properly with the Arwing and All-Range Mode was a bit of a mess my first time. Evading enemy fire with the chicken walker was a bit clumsy but locking on and rolling to the side works very well. Ditto with the Landmaster. The Gyro was ok but the slow exploratory mode it brings wears out pretty quickly.

I think reviewers might be right. I'm not seeing much in the way of creative level design, and the fact that it took me until the sixth level to find a boss battle that awed me is a bit troubling. There's really not much meat on the bone and even less variety on the gameplay. I've yet to encounter extended moments of dogfighting. The game wants to hurry you into the next moment so badly that it misses what's so great about the series. Just get out of my way and put some enemies on the screen so I can blast them for a high score.

I don't want to be all negative though. As I said, the boss battle on Titania was genuinely fun, and I think I'm going to love finding ways to get high scores on some levels, specially in places like the stealth level in Zoness. The aiming wasn't too bad, but I wish the game didn't force its precision aiming on the GamePad. My current gaming setup on Wii U doesn't leave me much room to get comfortable and be able to have the GamePad and the TV screen within range of my eyes. So far it's too much looking down at the GamePad and I'm still learning how to play the game.

Ultimately it was't the motion controls that annoyed me at first, but the constant nagging voices of Peppy and Slippy. Yes, damnit you don't need to keep telling me to aim with the motion controls, I got that the first 50 times you said it. Unfortunately those grating voices look like they're here to stay unless I mute the GamePad audio. Which sounds like a great idea really.

I'll keep at it. I think if things get better there's still a chance I get hooked on the game.


EDIT: Also, Jeeeeez there is no need for so much exposition at the beginning. How did 5 brief paragraphs in 64 turn into 5 plus minutes of story here?

[Triforce Hermit]

These controls are bad? I mean I know it takes a bit to get used too, but these are what ruined the game? Yeah they seem to be docking this game for some other reason.

I loved the Star Wolf level. When you fly really close by them and it goes slo-mo for a bit, they did a good job making it cinematic. I'm happy with it.

(And the SNES Walker looks ridiculous)

[Nile Boogie Returns]

"FINALLY...THE FOX HAS COME BACK TO NIN-TEN-DO!"


The wait is over. Just picked up the game and as soon as this episode of "Jessie" is off I'm firing up this bad boy and we are going to see what's what.

[Caterkiller]

I am eating this game all up.

I don't get the comparison to Kid Icarus, while I found that games controls to be ok, I do remember getting cramped up from time to time and just having a difficult time navigating.

There is a learning curve here, but I don't think it's steep at all. Play like normal Star Fox and just tilt the pad ever so often when you need motion. The biggest issue is assigning u-turn, bombs, summersault, all to the stick and buttons. I mess up when I'm in a tense moment and all I want to do is break but I press so hard on the stick I waste a bomb in the process.

People seem to get really thrown off with the cinematic perspective. That I can understand. My advice, just play those portions almost completely in 1st person, occasionally looking at the 3rd person perspective to keep an eye out on hazards.

I binged about 6 hours yesterday. I haven't done anything like that since I was in high school. This game has almost completely delivered in my opinion. All I would need is a VS multiplayer to make my heart whole.