Topic: Star Fox: Zero Interest On This Forum

[Mop it up]

Plus Star Fox 64 had controls you just picked up and immediately got. So not only is Nintendo asking gamers in general to adapt to non-traditional controls, they're asking fans of this very series to do so when the most popular entry in that series did not.

I think you are underestimating the time it took to learn how to use the then-new analogue stick on the N64 controller. It certainly took me a lot longer than a few minutes to get used to the control in Super Mario 64, and no one I've known picked up on it quickly either. Plus, 3D games were a new thing back then so that took some time to get used to as well.

Also, in 1997, analogue stick control was unconventional. If Nintendo made traditional controls for Star Fox 64, it would have used the D-pad instead of the analogue stick.

[Ian Sane]

Plus Star Fox 64 had controls you just picked up and immediately got. So not only is Nintendo asking gamers in general to adapt to non-traditional controls, they're asking fans of this very series to do so when the most popular entry in that series did not.

I think you are underestimating the time it took to learn how to use the then-new analogue stick on the N64 controller. It certainly took me a lot longer than a few minutes to get used to the control in Super Mario 64, and no one I've known picked up on it quickly either. Plus, 3D games were a new thing back then so that took some time to get used to as well.

Also, in 1997, analogue stick control was unconventional. If Nintendo made traditional controls for Star Fox 64, it would have used the D-pad instead of the analogue stick.

By the time Star Fox 64 came out analog stick controls were expected and had been used in multiple major N64 titles.  The only way you wouldn't get it is if it was your first N64 game.  What game has controls like Star Fox Zero?

And the thing with the analog stick was that it was an awesome idea and took off right away and has been the standard ever since.  Not every controller idea takes off like that.  Very few do.  Motion control came, had a fad level of success, and is now pretty much gone, except for the odd project from Nintendo which seems more like desperately pushing a failed ideology instead of using what actually works.  The d-pad and analog stick and shoulder buttons all took off and became standard because they were great ideas that worked really well.  Motion control ran its course because the concept itself is flawed and the market was tired of it.

It's hard to compare Nintendo controller innovations that became standard and ones that didn't.  They aren't really the same.  Not all ideas are equal and Nintendo is capable of fantastic ideas and horrible ones.  The mixed reviews of this game and the general dislike of motion controls from hardcore gamers, who all loved the analog stick and embraced it quickly, suggests that the specific nature of motion controls is why it is unpopular, not the general concept of new ideas or the closedmindedness of reviewers.  Good innovation is good, bad innovation is bad.  It's isn't a black and white concept where if you don't accept every new concept in videogames that you're closedminded and just want the same thing again and again.  Innovation in itself is not good, it is merely something with the potential for greatness.

[Mop it up]

By the time Star Fox 64 came out analog stick controls were expected and had been used in multiple major N64 titles.  The only way you wouldn't get it is if it was your first N64 game.  What game has controls like Star Fox Zero?

This question makes no sense. Star Fox 64 does not control like Super Mario 64. What game released before Star Fox 64 controls like Star Fox 64? You're speaking in generalities, and so plenty of other games use motion like Star Fox Zero.

Also, there is no controller or method that is right for every game. Not every game uses an analogue stick or shoulder buttons, even today. It was also easier for people to accept new control methods back then because there were a lot less established standards than there are now. It's still good to have motion as an option, as it works exceptionally well for some games, although it is unfortunate that they have been forced into some games where they don't belong as I feel that has tainted them. But of course you'd rather just ignore those and all the people who like them and push your own view as the accepted standard. You've gone on record saying you don't like motion controls even if they're good, so that says all we need to know about you. It doesn't make them bad just because you don't like them.

[Ian Sane]

I don't see how the hell Star Fox 64 controls any different than Star Fox on the SNES other than that it uses an analog stick instead of a d-pad.  Left still goes left, right still goes right, it just uses a stick instead if a d-pad.  It took me all of 10 seconds to figure out how to play it the first time.  Any unfamiliarity with the analog stick was ironed out in other N64 games.  Star Fox Zero wants you to look at two screens at once while controlling one screen with traditional inputs and one with motion control.  Numerous reviews mention it as a learning curve while I don't recall any Star Fox 64 reviews saying that.

Nintendo can use whatever controls they want but my views on motion controls are not the minority.  So they can use them but the reviews and sales will suffer as any such game is going to be a "love it or hate it" thing.  If they're going to go in with full knowledge that that's the likely outcome and are okay with that, fine.  If they're trying to resurrect a series in need of it, this approach is not going to work.  Did they want to make a comeback game for Star Fox or create a proof-of-concept for an untraditional control scheme?  I think you can only make one or the other.

[Mop it up]

I won't get tied into the same conversations with you again. Regardless, the point is your original statement that the controls in Star Fox 64 are conventional has been shown to be incorrect. Admit it. Be a man.

A Batman.

[Caterkiller]

Star Fox 64 was my first game for the N64 and despite getting all the way to Venom on the hard path in Star fox SNES, adjusting to the stick was difficult to me. During that time I remember thats when my mom and my favorite video gaming cousin quit video games, the idea of the stick in and of itself was too much for them to handle.

I'm pretty sure a large part of that blue ocean crowd was pretty pleased when all they initially saw on the Wii remote wa a D-Pad. 

Of course thats just the problem of some people, they can't hang with the sticks and I don't blame them. Some people can't hang with Splatoons motions or Star Fox's and I don't blame them either but if either games didn't have motion I'm certain they wouldn't play as well.

Star Fox's biggest issues are assigning too many things on one stick. The motion is really the best part about it. I'm going through the game stage by stage collecting every gold medal and each time I realize that Miyamoto was right on with these controls(accept the right stick). This is Star Fox's next level but because they are more complex then most things out there it's only natural that some people won't try it or won't even try to open their minds when given the chance.

It's no different than 2D Mario and 3D Mario. Some people just don't want to deal with all that extra "baggage" of 3D.


On a side note but somewhat related, I found the following very fascinating.


My daughter asked to play Mario 3D World with me at 3 years and 6 months of age. The first few days, she would only walk, like our moms did with Mario World back on the SNES, you know never running? I would pick her up and run to the flag poles.

After a week she understood running and jumping. Within the first month she could make it to and beat the 1st castle without the super leaf.

Today she is 4 years old and 1 month almost exactly. I kid you not(except for that clown boss and that stage where you have to walk along the tilting rainbow blocks in lava), she can get all the way to World Bowser and defeat him without the super leaf. I watch her and it's amazing! We can actually play 2 players and it isn't ultra frustrating for me.

BUT you know what she can't do? She has an extremely hard time with NSMBU and Super Mario World. Playing on a 2D plane and timing jumps almost completely eludes her. She understands the run button in 3D World but when I tell her to do the same in the 2D games it just doesn't compute. So she just doesn't play those games.

I think that says a lot about how we as gamers perceive things that are new and sometimes strange. My 4 year old knows how to crouch dash and long jump in a 3D Mario, but put her in a 2D setting and she plays one level before she gives up because it's too hard. How many purists out there could never leave the mouse and key board for the FPS's and how many are out there that refuse that because they grew up on dual analog and it just gells with their mental systems?

I will never forget how Metroid Prime of all things was slammed in various magazines and that game rating TV show on G4. Maybe not slammed but there was no way that game deserved 6's and 7's if you played it the way it was meant to be played. Didn't you have to hold R to look up? Yeah that did not go over well back then.

[Phil]

I don't understand the need for flicking the sticks to somersault and U-turn when they're already assigned to buttons. The fact that the tutorial mentions the sticks instead of the buttons first is confusing to me as well. I say this as a middle-of-the-road game designer. It just seems counterintuitive to me, especially for a Miyamoto game. Then again, I doubt he had his hand in EVERY decision. hehe

[Soren]

Add me to the growing list of people who got stuck at that godawful Andross battle. To be honest, I kinda got stuck on a few boss battles previous to Andross. I cannot for the life of me understand how little margin for error this game gives you ,specially when there's so much you have to deal with and be aware.

The game has stopped being fun and it's not starting to feel like a chore. Now amount of patience for the controls can help with that. Which is disappointing because the game has its moments. I've had 2 play sessions and my opinion now is worse than when I started.

[Triforce Hermit]

Are people really having problems? I mean I've died a few times here and there, but that was par for the course when I first started SF64. The only annoying controls are the stick flicking and lock-on during Star Wolf fights.

[Order.RSS]

Picked up both the main game and Star Fox Guard. The latter is surprisingly fun so far! It's a clever little idea and there seems to be a lot of content in it.

Star Fox Zero... Well it feels really cool so far, I love the transforming from Arwing to Walker and back. But the controls are very complex. So far I keep pressing Y to reset the reticule and kinda winging it. Definitely feels like co-op will be the way to go here. I'm also finding it easier when switching the screens, but that leaves little time to look at the cool scenery haha.


Honestly so far I just feel kinda inept when playing this, but I expect to get used to it.

[ThePerm]

Caterkiller awesome story about your daughter. It wasn't long ago that she was just born. She's already 4? Time flies. I haven't even played Super Mario 3d world yet. Amazing.

I got Splatoon for my birthday at the end of March, but I haven't played it yet because my nephews will want to play. They're 4 and 6. I've played Super Mario maker a lot though. I can off screen play that. Maybe I'll let them play.

I helped my older nephew play Minecraft. It was a chore, but fun. He kept killing Steve and losing all the items. He kept telling me he knew everything there was to know about minecraft. Except he never played before. All he knows from about Minecraft is from toys that are at the store. It's pretty cute. I don't even know if they advertise on TV. What he did know, he probably learned some things from the box backs. I learned a lot about x-men that way.

I wonder when the minecraft movie is coming out?

[Caterkiller]

Soren would you believe me if I said I could beat Andross without even taking a hit?

I completely admit that the stick to U-Turn and Summersault can be really frustrating because maybe you want to boost but you perform tricks instead and miss your target.

Advice for Andross:
1) Use the First Person view to find the blue entrances of course. Don't fly into them, land on the ledges with the walker and drop in.
2) Don't fly with the Arwing around Andross.
3) When he raises his fist to punch or clap shoot his weak point for a few seconds and then RUN don't fly to one end of the arena.
4) You'll be facing a wall when you run to the opposite side, use ZL targeting or U-Turn input to turn the Walker around instantly. Sometimes you will want to turn the walker with the R Stick and regrettably in the heat of the moment it will do a barrel roll
5) Once you destroy a hand, don't try to get that double laser, just fly out a window immediately.
6) Andross will shoot lasers all over the arena. Fly towards the camera(the Arwing facing you in the TV) and just lightly push up and down to avoid the lasers. They are extremely difficult to avoid if you are flying along side the arena or using the First Person view.
7) Fly back in a hole and keep an eye on where that double laser is. Either get it as you drop in as a Walker or don't get it at all unless you know you have enough health to take the tractor beam hit.
Still no need to fly, run/boost away from his attacks.
9) When he sucks you in use your bombs to get him off you quickly. Aiming with the laser is hard but thats the only other way.
10) Once his hands are destroyed don't fly around. Just do 2 or 3 barrel rolls do dodge his head rush attack and spit panels.
11) Shoot him in the glowing parts and when he is dizzy now feel free to fly to the opposite side or run to hit the sore on the back of his head.

I'm telling you it can be done without getting touched. Well the tractor beam is one that is really hard to avoid.

[pokepal148]

To be fair not getting a sequel would probably be a better rate then what Spyro got considering this screenshot came from Spyro 3.

[Soren]

I beat Andross last night and it felt very rewarding. I basically had the same strategy you mentioned above Caterkiller. For most of his hand attacks I was able to damage him just before he would inflict damage on me. The tractor beam is totally unfair because it gives you a very short time to damage him the margin for error is extremely tight. If your aim is off for a second or two, forget it. You'll be thrown across the room.

A problem I have is that there's just so much to do in a finite amount of time. I don't have the controls mastered yet so I'll end up doing something stupid like transform back into the Arwing before I press "-" to put target mode back on the main screen and then I feel like my whole flow is gone. Then I don't have enough time to fly out of the hole and when I do make it out I'm struck by laser that's going round at a fair bit of speed. I realize I'm talking about the final boss and there has to be a level of difficulty to make it rewarding. But I feel like the game isn't helping me get better aside from "memorize his patterns as you die a lot and you'll make small bits of progress". I get more knowledge from forums and stuff I can actually use.

I...like the game. I don't love it yet. But at least I walked away from the final fight with a desire to keep playing the game and to get better at it. I'll put it down while I play Guard for a bit and the come back later to start playing all the different missions with the knowledge I have now.

Also, the Star Wolf battle on Venom is pretty cool. I want more of that.

[Phil]

Stupid here quit Arcade Mode at Venom thinking it wouldn't force me to start over from the beginning. It did. Dammit!

[Phil]

Got all 70 medals from high scores, mission accomplished victories, and miscellaneous tasks. Beat Arcade Mode several nights ago to earn the Sound Test.


Really amazing game, though not without faults.


https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHlJLZYRAw

[Mop it up]

Star Fox 64 was my first game for the N64 and despite getting all the way to Venom on the hard path in Star fox SNES, adjusting to the stick was difficult to me. During that time I remember thats when my mom and my favorite video gaming cousin quit video games, the idea of the stick in and of itself was too much for them to handle... [buncha other good stuff]

I don't really have anything to add, just wanted to say what a well-expressed post you have here. It just goes to show how people have different preferences and tendencies which lead to different control styles fit for different people. A good example of why custom controls should have been a standard by now, and who knows why they're not. Myself, I've never really liked dual-analogue, which may have something to do with my willingness to embrace the Wiimote.

[Enner]

A good example of why custom controls should have been a standard by now, and who knows why they're not.

One explanation that I sorta buy is that having control mapping options is an additional and complex thing to design, implement, and check for quality. Emphasis on the "sorta" because nearly all PC games have been featuring custom control mappings for years without much issue.

[Mop it up]

One explanation that I sorta buy is that having control mapping options is an additional and complex thing to design, implement, and check for quality. Emphasis on the "sorta" because nearly all PC games have been featuring custom control mappings for years without much issue.

It depends on the input in question. From what I understand, analogue inputs such as sticks, motion, IR pointer, etc. can be complicated to program and are not really interchangeable, so providing options for more than one of those would take some extra work. That said, I don't think it's an exorbitant amount of work, and it seems like something worthwhile as it would accommodate more players, resulting in games appealing to more people. However, I do recall the devs of Conduit 2 stating that when they decided to add in Classic Controller support, it took only a day of work.

In the case of buttons however, from what I have seen, assigning functions to buttons is very simple code, and so allowing for mappable buttons is extremely easy to do. Therefore, there's no real excuse for games to not offer custom button settings at the least.

[Ian Sane]

I think there should be a certain level of button mapping at the console level.  Yeah as Mop pointed out something like analog controls aren't interchangeable but if I decide to map the A button to the B button that is really easy.  Like in an emulator you can just map the controller buttons to whatever you want.  It's a digital button, on/off, so if I map it to another digital button it should just work.  If they put that in the OS itself then you gain some flexibility even if the developer doesn't offer it.

In Windows I can go into the setting and flip my mouse buttons and every program just works because as far as they know they're receiving a left mouse button click, even though I'm actually clicking the right mouse button because I configured it as such.

I can see a console maker not doing it because it would take some work to implement and it isn't really a feature that's going to draw sales.  Or I could see them being concerned about people getting all confused when the game says "press B" and they actually have to press A because they remapped the buttons and forgot about it.  To me I wouldn't need the visual instructions to adapt to my remapping but Nintendo probably would care about that.  It's an extra layer of polish and professionalism that makes the feature a lot more expensive to implement and much more of a pain in the ass for devs to deal with.

[Mop it up]

It's funny you mention that, because the Virtual Console on Wii U allows for button mapping which could present that exact problem in games like Zelda OoT which tell you that A is the action icon and Z is targeting.

I guess it sounds like new games should work more like VC games!

[DreamyWarrior00]

I haven't played much yet just the first couple of stages. I'm planning on streaming it the gameplay so I want to be surprised alongside the viewers. But the first stage was so reminisce of StarFox 64 which I absolutely loved. It seemed smooth and crisp from the first stage though.

[BranDonk Kong]

I kind of like the controls, and I kind of hate the controls. I *almost* get it...then again, I've only played for 10 minutes.

[broodwars]

I picked up a $40 Used copy from Amazon over the weekend, and I just finished my 1st playthrough. Overall, the game is...OK. It's not great, but it's not horrible (the quintessential 6.5/10, really). When the game focused on fast-paced Arwing action (and even the first Landmaster stage I ran into on Fortuna), I thought it generally succeeded. On the flipside, I thought the Gyrowing stage I played through (covert action on Z) was boring as ****, with extremely slow movement and very little of interest to do.  As for Andross, sure I died a few times on him but generally thought he wasn't particularly hard.

So...yeah...the controls. The best I could say of them is that I "tolerated" their existence and tried to use the motion controls as little as possible. I really could have done without several boss fights relying entirely on the motion controls working 100% in walker mode (where the camera goes nuts). I didn't come out of the game angry at the controls like many reviewers did. I'm just completely unimpressed, as the gimmicky gamepad crap didn't really feel like it added anything to the game, and it made some routine actions like aiming more annoying than they would be with traditional controls.

[Caterkiller]

Wow at the above. I guess Star Fox Zero is a success after all.