Author Topic: The Conduit  (Read 611793 times)

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1200 on: May 06, 2009, 04:09:50 PM »
I think I've seen story mode enemies get flopped around by the grenades.  I think it's been disabled for human players.  Disappointing cuz i'd have all sorts of fun with downed players like I do with enemies in RE4.

Eggs, knifing, moar grenades, shoot their knees out when they try to stand up--

THAT'S ANOTHER THING, I'd like to have a shooter where we could incapacitate arms to prevent firing (or make their muscles lock so they fired wildly) and make people trip if they're shot in the leg when they run.  Limping players can still fight on the ground somewhat using secondary firearms and melee weapons in close proximity, and possibly a suicide grenade (in the event the game DOES NOT alert deaths, such that adversaries would have to approach your body to confirm your death, while you play possum a little bit).

Totally rad.

Modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed in ANY STUPID DIRECTION THAT WOULD MAKE REAL PEOPLE TRIP AND FALL are a big turn off.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1201 on: May 06, 2009, 04:15:59 PM »
Pro gets turned on by realism
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1202 on: May 06, 2009, 04:19:01 PM »
Yeah, and it's not the HD shiny-poo kind.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1203 on: May 06, 2009, 04:34:39 PM »
Whats realistic about shiny plastic GI Joes playing in the backyard?
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1204 on: May 06, 2009, 04:40:14 PM »
I think I've seen story mode enemies get flopped around by the grenades.  I think it's been disabled for human players.  Disappointing cuz i'd have all sorts of fun with downed players like I do with enemies in RE4.

Eggs, knifing, moar grenades, shoot their knees out when they try to stand up--

THAT'S ANOTHER THING, I'd like to have a shooter where we could incapacitate arms to prevent firing (or make their muscles lock so they fired wildly) and make people trip if they're shot in the leg when they run.  Limping players can still fight on the ground somewhat using secondary firearms and melee weapons in close proximity, and possibly a suicide grenade (in the event the game DOES NOT alert deaths, such that adversaries would have to approach your body to confirm your death, while you play possum a little bit).

Totally rad.

Modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed in ANY STUPID DIRECTION THAT WOULD MAKE REAL PEOPLE TRIP AND FALL are a big turn off.

I'm on your level. I want a game like that so bad, and I don't care if it looks like crap.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 04:42:38 PM by Kashogi Y. Stogi »
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Offline MoronSonOfBoron

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1205 on: May 06, 2009, 05:04:29 PM »
I was playing Left 4 Dead last night with some clanmates, and we were having a jolly old time goofing off and shooting each other in the back when there were zombies bearing down on us from all sides. The thing about L4D is that Survivors fall over when their health falls past a certain point; not dead, but just unable to move until a teammate saves them. (And in our friendly-fire match, this led to hilarious griefing sessions where we downed each other to be used as zombie bait.)

Then I read the past couple posts.

I realize now that in most games, developers are often shy about taking control away from players in some form or another. Blizzard withheld knockback in WoW until last year, and there has been considerable outcry against Valve for the recently introduced stun weapon in Team Fortress 2. Similarly, grenades in FPS games have always done "about as much damage as a rabbit fart", when realistically a small detonation would tear someone up from even ten feet away.

In Left 4 Dead, gameplay centers around incapacitating Survivor players; the Special Infected "boss" zombies aren't meant to deal inordinate amounts of damage, and in fact are usually no more durable than the regular zombie, even as playable characters in Versus mode. The real power of the Special Infected comes from their ability to change the movement of the Survivors; they can stop their movement, separate them from the group, and even push or pull them into hazards.

Do the Survivor players complain? Never. For them, getting downed, stunned, knocked around or dragged halfway across the map is a fact of life, an accepted part of the kind of experience L4D aims to provide. Their first thought isn't "OMG STUNLOCK I RAGEQUIT" but rather "Oh snap! I hope my teammates come save me."

An aside: explosives don't send any characters flying, save for Special Infected corpses (which go flying half a mile anyways, even if you killed them with a teeny tiny pistol).

I think the "modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed" isn't just an AI issue, it's a systemic problem that can be traced back to the fact that the modern FPS genre is founded upon the "lone Rambo juggernaut" narrative, which has threadbare room for real player vulnerability. Physics-based gameplay mechanics add a whole new layer of vulnerability and interaction outside of the "point and click to change this number representing health" scheme.

In the end, what we end up with are a bunch of characters that run around shooting guns at each other and not much else; you could do a "demake" of most modern FPS games into something resembling Wolfenstein 3D and the experience would not change much.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 05:08:24 PM by MoronSonOfBoron »
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1206 on: May 06, 2009, 05:17:27 PM »
The problem is: developers seem to think that there are only two ways to make a FPS. Either like Halo or CoD4.

One is just over the top hysteria, and the other is realistic. There hasn't been a comfortable inbetween.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1207 on: May 06, 2009, 05:32:06 PM »
The problem is: developers seem to think that there are only two ways to make a FPS. Either like Halo or CoD4.

One is just over the top hysteria, and the other is realistic. There hasn't been a comfortable inbetween.

Well, occasionally you get a game that goes against that grain like Bioshock or (from what I've heard) Portal, but yeah that does seem to be the trend.
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Offline Spinnzilla

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1208 on: May 06, 2009, 05:43:29 PM »
The problem is: developers seem to think that there are only two ways to make a FPS. Either like Halo or CoD4.

One is just over the top hysteria, and the other is realistic. There hasn't been a comfortable inbetween.

Team Fortress 2?
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1209 on: May 06, 2009, 05:46:30 PM »
Whats realistic about shiny plastic GI Joes playing in the backyard?

The pixel shaders and HDR lighting and multiple cores that the industry insists increases immersion gameplay realism and art, of course.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1210 on: May 06, 2009, 06:04:35 PM »
"I think the "modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed" isn't just an AI issue, it's a systemic problem that can be traced back to the fact that the modern FPS genre is founded upon the "lone Rambo juggernaut" narrative, which has threadbare room for real player vulnerability. Physics-based gameplay mechanics add a whole new layer of vulnerability and interaction outside of the "point and click to change this number representing health" scheme.

In the end, what we end up with are a bunch of characters that run around shooting guns at each other and not much else; you could do a "demake" of most modern FPS games into something resembling Wolfenstein 3D and the experience would not change much."

I've expressed pretty much that throughout the last decade (ALMOST 10 YAERS!?).

I like the presence of vulnerability because it prompts players to take care in approaching combat (i.e. no strafe-dancing in open arenas).  It also aides in producing that nerve-racking anxiety towards being killed within a second of enemy contact (one NATO round to the chest and no life meter to speak of is all that's needed to say goodnight) that Rainbow Six wonderfully exercised ten years ago, scarier than survival horror game IMO.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1211 on: May 06, 2009, 06:05:24 PM »
The problem is: developers seem to think that there are only two ways to make a FPS. Either like Halo or CoD4.

One is just over the top hysteria, and the other is realistic. There hasn't been a comfortable inbetween.

These developers are weak children who goto tradeshow awards to high-five each other.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1212 on: May 06, 2009, 06:13:14 PM »
I'd like to take this opportunity to plug an old favorite online FPS of mine, Urban Terror. www.urbanterror.net Windows Mac or Linux!

based on the quake 3 engine It has fast paced gameplay with a few nice additions

- Stamina bar to eliminate bunny hopping. This bar is also the same as your health bar, so if you have half health, your stamina runs out quicker.
- Locational damage. If you get shot in the arms or leg, you need to bandage yourself to stop the bleeding.
- Jump is also climb so instead of jumping onto a six foot ledge, you crawl up.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1213 on: May 06, 2009, 06:26:43 PM »
Modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed in ANY STUPID DIRECTION THAT WOULD MAKE REAL PEOPLE TRIP AND FALL are a big turn off.

With current controls, the choice is between robotic GI Joes and just plain robots.  Realistic FPS games remind me of what it must be like to remotely pilot a deep sea submersible, except the sub can randomly die with no warning.  I'll happily accept more realism once I can plug into the matrix, but until then I don't want to have to deal with managing my character's bodily functions in between shooting bad guys.

Vulnerability is another issue, but I think level design and technology have a ways to go before dying from one shot could feel fair.  Technology needs to advance to the point that enemy line of sight, suitability of environmental objects for cover, and whether or not bullets can penetrate certain objects are all intuitively obvious.  Level design in the "realistic" games I've played hasn't been set up to be playable, but to look good.  There are nice big open areas to show off the draw distance, but you can't go out there because it's a death trap, but the whole map is like that so you have to, so you're killed by a sniper and have to wait twenty minutes for the rest of your team to get killed by snipers before they can even see the objective, either.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1214 on: May 06, 2009, 06:42:22 PM »
No smoke/distraction devices?  APC's to cover your movement?

Devs are lazy weak children.
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Offline MoronSonOfBoron

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1215 on: May 06, 2009, 07:55:05 PM »
BUT I WAS TOLD WE WOULD BE FIGHTING MEN
Technology needs to advance to the point that enemy line of sight, suitability of environmental objects for cover, and whether or not bullets can penetrate certain objects are all intuitively obvious.  Level design in the "realistic" games I've played hasn't been set up to be playable, but to look good.

Exactly. It has nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with the design. Designers are not taking the time to think about how to introduce players to that concept of environmental consideration outside of visuals, when it's already well within their power to communicate what kinds of materials are present. We already have believable wood, stone, and metal textures on polygons of acceptable thickness, that make the appropriate sounds when struck by a variety of projectiles, but these are never incorporated very deeply into the gameplay itself.

Once gameplay actually incorporates new mechanics in an interesting and challenging manner, then the players will start to want them and use them.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 07:58:02 PM by MoronSonOfBoron »
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1216 on: May 06, 2009, 11:38:06 PM »
Modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed in ANY STUPID DIRECTION THAT WOULD MAKE REAL PEOPLE TRIP AND FALL are a big turn off.

With current controls, the choice is between robotic GI Joes and just plain robots.  Realistic FPS games remind me of what it must be like to remotely pilot a deep sea submersible, except the sub can randomly die with no warning.  I'll happily accept more realism once I can plug into the matrix, but until then I don't want to have to deal with managing my character's bodily functions in between shooting bad guys.

Vulnerability is another issue, but I think level design and technology have a ways to go before dying from one shot could feel fair.  Technology needs to advance to the point that enemy line of sight, suitability of environmental objects for cover, and whether or not bullets can penetrate certain objects are all intuitively obvious.  Level design in the "realistic" games I've played hasn't been set up to be playable, but to look good.  There are nice big open areas to show off the draw distance, but you can't go out there because it's a death trap, but the whole map is like that so you have to, so you're killed by a sniper and have to wait twenty minutes for the rest of your team to get killed by snipers before they can even see the objective, either.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. The potential for such a game is huge.

No radar. No HUD. Straight up kill or be killed intensity. Count your bullets and make everyone count. Sneak around like a ninja with a silencer and knife, or kick in the door wavin' the four four.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1217 on: May 06, 2009, 11:48:51 PM »
Modern FPS gameplay of robotic GI Joes that run zigzag circles at full speed in ANY STUPID DIRECTION THAT WOULD MAKE REAL PEOPLE TRIP AND FALL are a big turn off.

With current controls, the choice is between robotic GI Joes and just plain robots.  Realistic FPS games remind me of what it must be like to remotely pilot a deep sea submersible, except the sub can randomly die with no warning.  I'll happily accept more realism once I can plug into the matrix, but until then I don't want to have to deal with managing my character's bodily functions in between shooting bad guys.

Vulnerability is another issue, but I think level design and technology have a ways to go before dying from one shot could feel fair.  Technology needs to advance to the point that enemy line of sight, suitability of environmental objects for cover, and whether or not bullets can penetrate certain objects are all intuitively obvious.  Level design in the "realistic" games I've played hasn't been set up to be playable, but to look good.  There are nice big open areas to show off the draw distance, but you can't go out there because it's a death trap, but the whole map is like that so you have to, so you're killed by a sniper and have to wait twenty minutes for the rest of your team to get killed by snipers before they can even see the objective, either.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. The potential for such a game is huge.

No radar. No HUD. Straight up kill or be killed intensity. Count your bullets and make everyone count. Sneak around like a ninja with a silencer and knife, or kick in the door wavin' the four four.

Allow me to introduce you to Condemned: Criminal Origins.  That game had a lot of problems, but the combat was pretty close to that in how it dealt with firearms.
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1218 on: May 07, 2009, 02:27:56 AM »
Is that a 360/PS3 title?
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1219 on: May 07, 2009, 02:33:58 AM »
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1220 on: May 07, 2009, 02:47:28 AM »
It's a PC title too.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1221 on: May 07, 2009, 02:52:37 AM »
It's a PC title too.

And it is too scary to play.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1222 on: May 07, 2009, 11:45:13 AM »
No smoke/distraction devices?  APC's to cover your movement?

Devs are lazy weak children.

Smoke grenades and APCs announce your presence even if they're implemented correctly or usefully.  Also, they're never implemented correctly or usefully.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1223 on: May 07, 2009, 04:49:20 PM »
Logging into a match is an announcement of your presence.
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Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The Conduit
« Reply #1224 on: May 08, 2009, 10:33:54 AM »
Singing Happy Birthday is an announcement of your presents.