Author Topic: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.  (Read 85877 times)

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Offline Kairon

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #125 on: June 23, 2007, 04:27:03 PM »
The 360 is a GREAT piece of hardware. It just has a tendency to break, that's all.

Don't MS fix 'em for free though?
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #126 on: June 23, 2007, 07:16:02 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I don't consider systems bricking, overheating to the point of not working, or dieing  to be minor problems. All the companies dodge the failure rates (though you would be have a tough time proving they are since you can't go by anecdotal evidence), do you recall the NDS Lite cracked hinge problem? Nintendo dodged that like crazy until they finally gave in. What are your sources to back up your comments that the 360 had more problems than the competition?


They are minor problems because they affect such a small number of users.  I did a google search and grabbed the most recent article on the first page.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gaming/xbox-360-failure-rate-30-says-retailers-271487.php

A quote from says 'A Sydney retailer said "Out the Nintendo Wii, the PS3 and the Xbox 360 the Microsoft product is the only one that we have had constant problems with. In fact when we sell the Xbox 360 we tell customers to contact Microsoft if they "Ever have a problem".'

Even if you say that the internet makes the problem seem bigger why don't the other systems have just as many complaints?  The internet should be making problems for all systems appear larger yet the 360 problems still stand high above the others.  The machine was poorly designed, not much more to say.


Well I heard alot about PS3's problems and honestly one of the key things that could contribute to the lack "outcry" is that the PS3 isn't doing all that hot so there isn't a big enough sample. In regards to this article, who are these "retailers" and how do they determine the failure rate? There is too many unknowns in a story like that, which is why I hate articles for "X" that they have "reliable sources" or "a source" who are these sources? You may not like it, but the company who would know the real statistics about failure rate is the hardware manufacturer itself, and then it is whether or not you believe them. If you don't believe them, you better be able to back it up completely because like anything when you call an individual or even a company a liar you better have some substantial proof.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #127 on: June 23, 2007, 07:19:11 PM »
Proof? This is the internet!!! ^_^'
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #128 on: June 23, 2007, 07:26:20 PM »
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Originally posted by: Kairon
Proof? This is the internet!!! ^_^'


True, it is a fact LOOK IT UP!  
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Offline BigJim

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #129 on: June 23, 2007, 09:26:43 PM »
The internets told me that when a 360 gets replaced, it gets replaced with a refurbished unit. So basically it's going to be a revolving door once your fresh system bricks. Hence the stories about people being through multiple units.

Nobody can help it when software updates brick a system, but the primary problem is overheating. Moral of the story, get a 360 cooling accessory. Or if you're so inclined, replace the heatsink paste that they cake on like cream cheese and apply your own quality thermal grease... or just wait for the re-designed units that *should* run cooler.

The PS3 can get pretty damn hot too, but it doesn't have nearly as much of a failure problem. As expensive as it is, it's fairly well designed.
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Offline SixthAngel

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #130 on: June 23, 2007, 09:30:20 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Well I heard alot about PS3's problems and honestly one of the key things that could contribute to the lack "outcry" is that the PS3 isn't doing all that hot so there isn't a big enough sample. In regards to this article, who are these "retailers" and how do they determine the failure rate? There is too many unknowns in a story like that, which is why I hate articles for "X" that they have "reliable sources" or "a source" who are these sources? You may not like it, but the company who would know the real statistics about failure rate is the hardware manufacturer itself, and then it is whether or not you believe them. If you don't believe them, you better be able to back it up completely because like anything when you call an individual or even a company a liar you better have some substantial proof.


It didn't take many ms consoles to be sold for the failures to start popping up.  There are articles dated about this time last year that are talking about the insanely high failure rates of the 360 so a bigger sample is not necessary to judge the other systems.   So you can either judge the PR that MS shoves at you while dodging the real questions or you can judge what retailers say they experience.  Here is some PR, yeah lets believe them.  It is a well known problem that it is higher then it should be while the exact level in unknown since ms keeps tight lipped/lies.

Offline BigJim

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #131 on: June 24, 2007, 12:56:38 AM »
I L0L3RD at that interview when I read it.

My confidence was boosted negative 400 percent.  
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Offline Kairon

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #132 on: June 24, 2007, 08:21:54 AM »
MMmmmmm.... I love the smell of FUD in the morning.

Though I DO feel a little dirty spreading it, telling people not to buy systems because a Price drop HAS to happen sometime soon, because soon the PS3 controller will have rumble if they wait, because SOON MS will switch the 65 nm, and if they DO get an X360 an extended service plan ain't too bad...
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Shift Key

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #133 on: June 24, 2007, 11:29:48 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
You may not like it, but the company who would know the real statistics about failure rate is the hardware manufacturer itself, and then it is whether or not you believe them. If you don't believe them, you better be able to back it up completely because like anything when you call an individual or even a company a liar you better have some substantial proof.


Yes, because companies always speak directly and use no "spin" at all to make things seem favourable.

In case you didn't smell the sarcasm, have a read of this: Microsoft PR guy talks to Journalist

This has been my most recent PR shadowboxing read involving a Microsoft rep, and its also one of my most enjoyable reads. Because he uses a whole lot of oxygen without producing information. Its truly amazing stuff.

Look, I'll even do a translation of his speak into layman's terms for you.
Quote

Q: What is the post-mortem on Xbox 360 manufacturing? How has it turned out for you?
A: Like any other post mortem, there are some things you would have done differently that you learned and that you incorporate back into your processes. Overall, it was really smoothe compared to the complexity of the product we were building.

Spin-removed answer: "We're not telling you details because any faults will be jumped upon by the media."
Quote

Q: Do you still say that is a normal return rate for the console?
A: We continue to say the vast majority of the people are really happy with it.

Spin-removed answer: "You think I'm going to say anything that isn't a glowing summary of the product I represent? Get out of town!"
Quote

Q: I’ve heard varying accounts of what is considered a normal return rate. Some people say that 2 percent is normal. Sometimes 3 percent to 5 percent is considered normal. Back to that question, can you address whether you are within those rates or within a normal rate.
A: We don’t disclose the actual number.

Q: Normal compared to the Xbox?
A: We don’t comment on that.

Spin-removed answer: "DIVERT ALL POWER TO THE DEFLECTOR SHIELDS, SPOCK!"
Quote

Q: What explains this anecodotal evidence that it’s out of whack, compared to the Wii or the PlayStation 3 or other consoles.
A: I would go back and say the vast majority of people love their experience. We continue to go back and address all of these issues on a case by case basis. There is a vocal minority out there. We go off and try to address their issues as quickly and as pain free as possible.

Spin-removed answer: "Look at that blue car. See how I showed you something irrelevant to your question and managed to avoid answering it. Yeah, that's why I'm a VP and you're just some guy. You truly are a terrible journalist"

Quote

Q: Can you say anything about the yield? Do you have a good yield? Can you say anything about the yield?
A: The important thing here is that each product that comes out of the factory is rigorously tested. To ensure highest quality for our customer.

Spin-removed answer: "Considering we 'designed' and 'fabricated' the chip ourselves, there's no way I'm telling you about the results. Unless they were good, then I'd be on the rooftops right about now telling everyone."

Quote

Q: If you have a high defect rate, won’t that ruin the business model? Won’t that ruin the profit?
A: I would say we don’t have a high defect rate. The vast majority of people are really excited about their product, and that we are targeting profitability for next year.

Spin-removed answer: "With a well-placed 'not' I managed to avoid your subtle trap. I may not be familiar with profitable products but I did get a few tips from my friends about how to make some money on the street soliciting my body - which I'm also excited about, but of course you didn't ask about this venture - so instead I'm going to work on the 360 by daylight to maintain this ruse."

Quote

Q: If you make a jump in a chip generation like that, from 90nm to 65nm, does that give you the opportunity to do a lot of things like totally resetting the quality level, totally resetting the costs?
A: Whether it is 90nm or 65nm, we have a high quality bar we target.

Spin-removed answer: "Suck my left nut, bookworm. Do something we might both enjoy for once."

Quote

Q: Does the quality automatically get better if you go from 90nm to 65nm?
A: The quality is good at both of those.

Spin-removed answer: "I choose to sit on the fence as long as you buy my product. It may look uncomfortable but I sleep surprisingly well."

Quote

Q: It seems like the obvious chance to do something new. For example, does it give you a chance to do the Xbox 360 Elite?
A: You know the business as well as I do. The design is essentially the same clock for clock as the previous version. It has to perform similarly to what was done in the past, as we go through this thing. We continue to drive the same levels of quality, to increase the quality if possible, and to ensure the customer has the best experience possible.

Spin-removed answer: "I don't know what you know about digital microelectronics, but I'll bet its minimal. So let me go back to talking about quality."

Aside:  Having done a course in digital microelectronics recently which covered the effects of the scaling of feature size on a processor(say, from 90nm to 65nm, roughly a 25% drop in feature size) then it affects a lot. For example:
"The trends in circuit design in the past indicate the clock speed of a new processor will typically increase by the factor that the feature size decreases."

So either he knows a lot more about circuit design than my lecturer (who actually did this thing for a living until recently) or he's full of it.

But hang on a second. I'm getting a dose of that feeling, what is it, empathy perhaps? That feeling where you want to try and understand the other side of the argument, no matter how convoluted or nonsensical it is? Yeah, lets call it that.

If a hypothetical situation arose where Microsoft was designed the chip that powered their games console (just like now), then I should have no reason to worry, right?
Surely there's some sort of magical process which tests a design thoroughly and proves that a chip will work before it is fabricated, given that it has a clock period of approximately 0.3 nanoseconds (give or take a few hundred picoseconds) and that it is a tri-core chip (haven't actually seen one of those in production environments either, precendence or insanity?) which would require more complex testing than a standard processor.
And then I should trust that the custom chips are put under burn-in procedures to ensure that they are all quality processors and that they will operate correctly for a sufficient period of time as to enable me to play Microsoft-branded games for a few years until I get bored of it or see the next Xbox console is eminent.

But then why are there so many people having problems with their units (I have seen a 360 brick, and it was a pain for my mate to get it sorted out because the retailer wanted to send it away to get repaired through Microsoft - two degrees of bullshit instead of the usual one).

You see the reason why people are annoyed at their 360s dying in the first place? Perhaps because Microsoft refuses to acknowledge their is a problem in the first place. Perhaps they are ducking at every hint of trouble because their fortune wasn't made in the hardware market - and now that they are trying to do it largely on their own they are seeing problems with the manufacture of their system.

Perhaps their "internal testing" isn't that stringent. Perhaps there is a problem with the burn-in process of their custom chips (look it up). Perhaps they're not sure of the definitive cause of the problem. Perhaps there are multiple problems and they'd rather not talk about it.

Their PR people are just doing their job, but for once I'd like to see a PR person be frank with the media. Perrin wasn't frank - she was uppity and egotistical.

Anyway, the review continues on like this for a bit ... quality is something we strive for ... the majority of people are loving their systems ... et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. You see what I'm getting at.

When people like this are Corporate Vice President, Gaming and Xbox Product Group then I hope that they are at least able to speak person-to-person. But of course this guy decides to be a PR guy instead.

Offline BigJim

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2007, 11:10:40 AM »
Microsoft labs are air conditioned to a perpetual low-humidity 45 degrees, emulating Bill Gate's sarcophagus conditions so that he may walk the halls during the day, in between his regenerations. That's why their internal test boxes don't overheat. The ambient temperatures are cave-like.  
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Offline blackfootsteps

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #135 on: June 25, 2007, 03:06:10 PM »
My 360 died last week. It pretty much had a whole range of problems, the flashing red lights of impending doom, a dvd drive that would get stuck and an AV cable that stopped being recognised. Pity because I did all I could to ensure its safety I even had a little portable fan near it for coolness. Also it's about a month over the 1 year warranty period
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2007, 04:21:18 PM »
The freaking AV cable FAILED?

holy crap what a garbage product.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2007, 06:24:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: blackfootsteps
My 360 died last week. It pretty much had a whole range of problems, the flashing red lights of impending doom, a dvd drive that would get stuck and an AV cable that stopped being recognised. Pity because I did all I could to ensure its safety I even had a little portable fan near it for coolness. Also it's about a month over the 1 year warranty period


So... are you getting a new XBox 360? What is your personal reaction to the Microsoft brand in gaming? Do you still feel happy about your XBox 360 purchase, and would you buy the next MS console? Basically, has this experience influenced your future videogame purchase habits?
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Chozo Ghost

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2007, 06:58:07 PM »
I get the impression that 360 (and PS3) owner's are very affluent. I mean, they would have to be to keep buying replacement consoles for hundreds of dollars each time...
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Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2007, 06:58:22 PM »
Shift Key, I agree with what you have to say, especially the PR agents being completely open and honest.  I do disagree a little about Perrin, though.  I always felt like she actually tried to force Nintendo into certain decisions through her interviews and the like.  For instance, I personally think that Perrin did want region-free Wii-ing, and when she made the statement that the Wii would be region free, she was hoping to deadlock Nintendo into this statement.  Why would she want this?  Because she's smart enough to see that the import market on the DS is profitable, and much larger than it is for the console market.  So I think in the end, Perrin couldn't be that honest with us, because she made it to a position that would be difficult for her to be fired from, and she used that to try to steer the company where she thought was best, even if that meant she wound up being wrong on a semi-frequent level.  I think that's part of why they made the move, because NOA's execs were a little too overbearing from what Nintendo wanted, except for Reggie, who found a perfect balance.

Anyways, on the 360:  I don't understand why any users would buy a second Xbox.  I'd call Microsoft, and tell them that you have no intention of buying anymore 360's, that you plan to sell all of your games, and that you will buy a PS3, because it will actually be cheaper than buying a second, then third 360.  See if they won't repair it for free, +/- the cost of shipping.  Obviously this vocal minority is either all liars or not a minority at all, since nearly everyone on the net seems to have a broken 360 or two, or three, or four, or even more.  I just don't get how the 360 sales numbers can be at such a standstill if they all are breaking.

So let us know what happens, BFS.  I'm interested in seeing if you can't get it repaired.

Offline blackfootsteps

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #140 on: June 26, 2007, 02:11:12 AM »
@ Pro: Yeah it seems that way, I would turn the console on and nothing would happen AV wise on my Tv/stereo, however the console itself sounded the same as it would usually. Turning it off and on straight away would solve the problem immediately (most of the time) - this is without touching anything (eg the AV cable). So I would assume it wasn't a simple connection issue with the AV at either end.

I didn't however have another cable to test with so I'm not 100% sure.

@ Kairon: I got my 360 well after Aus launch and just like everyone else I had heard the reports so  all along I have taken extra special care of the console - it disappoints me but I can't say I'm surprised. It sounds like the product was not quite up to scratch quality wise, especially after reading Shiftkey's analysis it seems that it still is a major problem and problem of recognition of the problem.

At the moment I've got exams so it's not really my main priority but my brother is a Halo nut so he wants it resolved soon.  I'm not going to fork out for a new one, the only game I'm looking forward to is Mass Effect, but as mentioned my brother is keen for Halo 3 so one way or another we'll have  a 360 I assume. I would definitely be very hesitant to buy a MS console in the future. Mainly based on the fact that I've had all kinds of consoles since I was little and they all still work, that this one failed doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.

@Chozo: Yep so affluent that I play(ed) my 360 on a 34cm tv. Hmmm, perhaps this is the cause of the AV problem But no, I do know what you mean, if all reports on the nets are to be believed people do indeed go out there and buy new replacement consoles.

@ Thatguy: Yeah thanks for the advice I'm definitely gonna try and get them to repair it for free. Although threatening to buy a PS3 may just make them think its a prank call so I won't go that far
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #141 on: June 26, 2007, 02:26:59 AM »
I would not threaten to go to the competition.

I would mention that your system died, just barely over the warranty.  Tell them you know of the issues Microsoft has been having with system failures and demand a new Xbox 360.  They won't be able to do that.  They will probably make an excuse of the warrant being out, but push anyway.  Once they are in the corner more...then ask if there is anything else they can do.  That is when they may offer to repair yours or give your a refurbished even though your warranty is out.

You know Nintendo is a great company with their warranty policy and such.  I have heard several stories of Nintendo fixing units after the warranty has worn out.  Because they understand that it is better to spend the extra money to keep a customer than to lose a customer.


Offline blackfootsteps

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #142 on: June 26, 2007, 02:33:27 AM »
Sounds like a plan. I'll let you guys know how it turns out!
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #143 on: June 26, 2007, 06:21:32 AM »
Let's starting guessing which forumers will have their 360 break next.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #144 on: June 26, 2007, 03:15:38 PM »
I'm sorry to do anything that would cause GoldenPhoenix pain... but well... here goes...

Quote

...
Additionally, the call to the Havant repair centre revealed some other worrying stats: “A shocking statistic we found out though is that between 1,500 to 2,500 consoles get sent to Havant by three UPS lorries per day, to then be shipped to Prague for repair,” Lee told us, going on to add, “[We] phoned up Nora the [customer service] supervisor again, who then admitted my console was in Prague and hadn’t been looked at yet – she seemed amazed that we knew!”

Comments from users on the Xbox.com forum reveal similar woes, and some have also discovered their consoles are indeed in repair centres outside of the UK: “I just spoke to the customer support people because my 360 has been gone since the 8th of June,” says forum user, LordBrown in a post dated 23rd of June. “Apparently because of the backlog in Havant they’re sending 360s to repair centres outside the UK! And that because of this Microsoft are legally allowed an additional ten days to get your 360 back to you.”
...


This relates to the UK.  
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #145 on: June 26, 2007, 03:59:10 PM »
That numbers way too big... it's gotta be false. Just gotta. But GEEZ LOUISE...
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline that Baby guy

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #146 on: June 26, 2007, 05:30:18 PM »
1500 a day, 365 days a year, means that in the UK, half a million 360s break a year.
There are about 1.3 million 360s in the UK, and the 360 has been out for about a year and a half.
From the numbers this article gives, mathmatical trend suggests that about half of all working 360s end up breaking over a fairly short period of time.

Now, I don't believe this entirely.  There is a whole lot of net ruckus over people owning more than two 360s just to replenish broken ones, so I suppose it could be possible, but honestly, anything close to 10% failure rate seems devastating enough to me, so I don't think Microsoft could release such faulty hardware.  Their information does show that a more in-depth form of research needs to happen soon, so Microsoft can straighten this out.  I could see world-wide class-action lawsuit occurring from a decent study, if my math is anywhere near accurate.

Offline denjet78

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RE:Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #147 on: June 26, 2007, 08:38:49 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
I could see world-wide class-action lawsuit occurring from a decent study, if my math is anywhere near accurate.


MS already extended the warranty period to a year in order to keep from having to deal with one class-action lawsuit. I wonder what lengths they'd go to in order to evade a second.

On the warranty front, my DS Lite broke today. The hinge where the power light is located completely broke off. It just broke off. I was playing it fine an hour before, came back to it, tried to open it and found that I couldn't. Called Nintendo, gave them the serial number of the system and they're sending me out a UPS slip to mail it back to them. They said they were going to repair it and return it but the guy was asking me all sorts of strange questions that lead me to believe that at the very least I'm going to be getting back a different refurbished unit if not a new one all together, which is fine with me as the touch screen was scratched to hell and I had two cracks in the hinge as well as a dead pixel on the bottom screen. None of that stuff really bothered me. Well, the touch screen was getting "ify" but that was about it.

Anyway, I had absolutely zero problem. I was asked if I had been overly abusing the system but I of course said no. The subject wasn't pushed at all. The whole situation was incredibly simply and strait forward. The guy was extremely helpful and polite. I don't even think that I mailed in my warranty card! I think I slipped in just under the year limit. Or maybe I was over? I'm not sure but whatever it was I had absolutely no problem. He even apologized because they didn't have a service center anywhere near me that I could take it to instead of having to mail it in!

How in the world can any other company compete with a service department like that?

Offline Kairon

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #148 on: June 26, 2007, 08:42:14 PM »
Did they charge you $50? That's what they're charging Dark Heart, I think.
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline denjet78

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RE: Microsoft showing their true colors once again.
« Reply #149 on: June 26, 2007, 08:55:19 PM »
As far as I know I'm not getting charged anything. But I was told this was a one time only deal. If I had any other problems with it, even if it was still under warranty, that I would be charged something.