Topic: Bioshock

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I'd actually like to see more experimentation that simplifies movement.

People don't think "walk left, right, forward, rotate," people walk FORWARD most of the time. Our impetus is only to walk forward, and subconsciously we handle direction. What about games where movement is controlled by just one button? Direction and all that other stuff is handled instinctually/intuitively, and the only actual discrete and explicit input needed is the command to "move."

That's what Killer 7 sort of does, and that's why I'm curious in seeing more rail-movement experimentations in the future.

Interesting idea, but having to only press one button to move would detatch the player from the experience. Think of it this way, yeah we may walk more in a straight line but isn't it also true you like to have the freedom to move how you wish? If you are in a new area in real life, don't you want to explore it?  

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Don't get me wrong, if you like Killer7 fine, but also understand there are reasons why people don't like it. Or in Mashiro's case, the game obviously is not for him and yet he is called ignorant which I felt was way out of line.

As long as you concede that awesome isn't for everyone. And Killer 7 is awesome!

Seriously, I'm reacting this way because it's been implied that Killer 7 is a bad game. It isn't. It has flaws. So did Super Paper Mario. So what? The game is beloved by many because of qualities that exist, whether or not they appeal to you.

It is not beloved by many though, it is more of a cult game then anything. The game was a poorly received game by both reviewers and the majority of gamers. To compare the polish of SPM to Killer7 is also silly, Killer7 was obviously a low budget title with constrained gameplay and repetitive design. To make it out like it doesn't have gameplay flaws that make its reception by the majority justified seems to be a bit absurb. What makes it even worse is when people utilize the hardcore vs casual label in regards to the game, which really has nothing to do with it. But I will say this, it is still better than Far Cry and Alien Syndrome!  

[Plugabugz]

Does having a rough (not unfinished or unpolished) game automatically make it bad?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Plugabugz
Does having a rough (not unfinished or unpolished) game automatically make it bad?

No but it doesn't make it great either.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I'd actually like to see more experimentation that simplifies movement.

People don't think "walk left, right, forward, rotate," people walk FORWARD most of the time. Our impetus is only to walk forward, and subconsciously we handle direction. What about games where movement is controlled by just one button? Direction and all that other stuff is handled instinctually/intuitively, and the only actual discrete and explicit input needed is the command to "move."

That's what Killer 7 sort of does, and that's why I'm curious in seeing more rail-movement experimentations in the future.

Interesting idea, but having to only press one button to move would detatch the player from the experience. Think of it this way, yeah we may walk more in a straight line but isn't it also true you like to have the freedom to move how you wish? If you are in a new area in real life, don't you want to explore it?

How do you explore a hallway?

Especially when you have one very key objective in mind, the world collapses into a one dimensional problem. You consistently go TO your room, not in the side door of the dorms, around a corner, around another corner, then turn left to the door, and finally get there.

In many ways, Killer 7's rail movements almost replicate the directness of movement that we had in 2D games. Just like the linear combat system or whatever it's called in Tales of Symphonia recreates a simpleness of movement (away, or towards) the enemy that enables players to function in that 4-player battle system.

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
It is not beloved by many though, it is more of a cult game then anything. The game was a poorly received game by both reviewers and the majority of gamers. To compare the polish of SPM to Killer7 is also silly, Killer7 was obviously a low budget title with constrained gameplay and repetitive design. To make it out like it doesn't have gameplay flaws that make its reception by the majority justified seems to be a bit absurb. What makes it even worse is when people utilize the hardcore vs casual label in regards to the game, which really has nothing to do with it.

I don't understand. Are we equally at fault when we proclaim our love for Fire Emblem? (Want a low budget game, just look at that beloved niche cult series, how many years and Intelligent Systems STILL can't do decent 3D? ... not that I'm complaining! ^_^) When we say we're excited for Battalion Wars? Heck, I still remember Eternal Darkness with fondness despite my willingness to call the game's ratings a symptom of fanboi over-hype.

Just because a game is cult does not mean that it instantly becomes okay to rag on it. It's okay to say it ain't for you, but to imply that the rest of us are demeaning ourselves by playing it?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I'd actually like to see more experimentation that simplifies movement.

People don't think "walk left, right, forward, rotate," people walk FORWARD most of the time. Our impetus is only to walk forward, and subconsciously we handle direction. What about games where movement is controlled by just one button? Direction and all that other stuff is handled instinctually/intuitively, and the only actual discrete and explicit input needed is the command to "move."

That's what Killer 7 sort of does, and that's why I'm curious in seeing more rail-movement experimentations in the future.

Interesting idea, but having to only press one button to move would detatch the player from the experience. Think of it this way, yeah we may walk more in a straight line but isn't it also true you like to have the freedom to move how you wish? If you are in a new area in real life, don't you want to explore it?

How do you explore a hallway?

Especially when you have one very key objective in mind, the world collapses into a one dimensional problem. You consistently go TO your room, not in the side door of the dorms, around a corner, around another corner, then turn left to the door, and finally get there.

In many ways, Killer 7's rail movements almost replicate the directness of movement that we had in 2D games. Just like the linear combat system or whatever it's called in Tales of Symphonia recreates a simpleness of movement (away, or towards) the enemy that enables players to function in that 4-player battle system.

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
It is not beloved by many though, it is more of a cult game then anything. The game was a poorly received game by both reviewers and the majority of gamers. To compare the polish of SPM to Killer7 is also silly, Killer7 was obviously a low budget title with constrained gameplay and repetitive design. To make it out like it doesn't have gameplay flaws that make its reception by the majority justified seems to be a bit absurb. What makes it even worse is when people utilize the hardcore vs casual label in regards to the game, which really has nothing to do with it.

I don't understand. Are we equally at fault when we proclaim our love for Fire Emblem? (Want a low budget game, just look at that beloved niche cult series, how many years and Intelligent Systems STILL can't do decent 3D? ... not that I'm complaining! ^_^) When we say we're excited for Battalion Wars? Heck, I still remember Eternal Darkness with fondness despite my willingness to call the game's ratings a symptom of fanboi over-hype.

Just because a game is cult does not mean that it instantly becomes okay to rag on it. It's okay to say it ain't for you, but to imply that the rest of us are demeaning ourselves by playing it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the Killer7 supporters that were calling everyone ignorant and too stupid to understand the game. There is nothing wrong with niche titles, like Fire Emblem but still I admit that it has flaws that makes the game not for everyone (though to be fair the Fire Emblem series does what it sets out to do quite well).

At least those games you mentioned had something called gameplay to push it along and didn't get their cult following from a rapid fan base who thinks they are elitists because they like a story over gameplay game like Killer7, and feel the need to demean those that don't like it.  It is pretty odd though, compared to most cult games, the Killer7 fanbase seems to breed some of the most arrogant, condescending fans around whether it be here, gamefaqs or elsewhere.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
At least those games you mentioned had something called gameplay to push it along

Wow. Okay. Stop right there. I don't know if I care to be equated with Oregon's reigning intellectual attack-dog Svevan (I'm your biggest fan Svevie! ::hugs and kisses:: Kick Roger Ebert's BUTT!!!) but I, for one, ENJOYED the gameplay in Killer 7. I've even put forward a defense for rail-movement in the previous posts. I think that the label of "condescending" definitely sticks when you get to decide what I DO and DO NOT enjoy, when others get to dictate WHERE and HOW and WHY I am having fun.

I've come to expect it from people debasing Wii Sports, come to expect it from people ridiculing the Wii's graphical output, but little did I expect it here. *shrug*

... actually, I shouldn't be too surprised. GP hates Alien Syndrome and everything it stands for!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
At least those games you mentioned had something called gameplay to push it along

Wow. Okay. Stop right there. I don't know if I care to be equated with Oregon's reigning intellectual attack-dog Svevan (I'm your biggest fan Svevie! ::hugs and kisses:: Kick Roger Ebert's BUTT!!!) but I, for one, ENJOYED the gameplay in Killer 7. I've even put forward a defense for rail-movement in the previous posts. I think that the label of "condescending" definitely sticks when you get to decide what I DO and DO NOT enjoy, when others get to dictate WHERE and HOW and WHY I am having fun.

I've come to expect it from people debasing Wii Sports, come to expect it from people ridiculing the Wii's graphical output, but little did I expect it here. *shrug*

... actually, I shouldn't be too surprised. GP hates Alien Syndrome and everything it stands for!

Hey you can have fun and not need gameplay doesn't mean it is for everyone (heck the MGS series is popular). Consider I"ve talked to more than once person who thinks Killer7 is lacking in gameplay but makes up for it their minds elsewhere is enough of a defense of the statement that Killer7 is not popular because of the game mechanics.

Not sure how you can stick up for Evan, because what he said to Mashiro was completely elitist and beyond condescending. Let's not even get into Dirk's comments, which were about as ridiculous as you can get. Like I said the Killer7 fanbase is obnoxious at best, elitist, yes. Out of all the niche titles I dislike the Killer7 fanbase the most, they are rabid, and perhaps the least open minded people around when someone has legitimate complaints about the game.

[Kairon]

I think it's obvious that Killer 7 isn't popular because of it's mechanics. Observe:

Quote
For instance, before Killer 7 was finished, Mikami told Suda to visit E3 and see what the US audience likes playing. Suda found that free-roaming style games were popular. However, Killer 7 was envisioned on rails; a set track that the player is forced to follow. He knew then that Killer 7 wouldn’t be popular in the US.

He asked himself and Mikami, “Should we change Killer 7 to a free-running game or should we keep it as a rail game?” Suda knew the answer: “I felt that rather than selling a lot, I went with the idea that I came up with originally.” Mikami told him to go ahead with his original idea, even though they both knew that the gameplay probably wouldn’t fly with US audiences.

Doesn't mean that a mere lack of popularity is a reason for condemnation.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I think it's obvious that Killer 7 isn't popular because of it's mechanics. Observe:

Quote
For instance, before Killer 7 was finished, Mikami told Suda to visit E3 and see what the US audience likes playing. Suda found that free-roaming style games were popular. However, Killer 7 was envisioned on rails; a set track that the player is forced to follow. He knew then that Killer 7 wouldn’t be popular in the US.

He asked himself and Mikami, “Should we change Killer 7 to a free-running game or should we keep it as a rail game?” Suda knew the answer: “I felt that rather than selling a lot, I went with the idea that I came up with originally.” Mikami told him to go ahead with his original idea, even though they both knew that the gameplay probably wouldn’t fly with US audiences.

Doesn't mean that a mere lack of popularity is a reason for condemnation.

You are right, popularity has nothing to do about it, there is much more to the game that ruins it for people. Take for example Beyond Good and Evil, that game wasn't popular but what made it different from Killer7 is that it was highly regarded from the get go.

[Kairon]

Hmmm... lemme be condescending here for a moment...

1. Mashiro says Killer 7 looked like crap

2. Svevan called him ignorant

Is that really what this is all about?

3. Mashiro later backtracked to say that the game didn't suit his preferences, turning it into a subjective evaluation of whether or not he would seek to play the game

4. Svevan left, since there's nothing to argue about anymore now that Mashiro is taking a purely subjective stance

Oh, and here's the real funny part:

5. Golden Phoenix supports Mashiro by criticizing Killer 7 on several points(thereby inadvertently and almost certainly unwillingly providing an opening for Svevan to return to the conversation, which if he's smart, he won't &P)

6. Pro666 becomes reasonable for the first time in like, evar

7. I propose that rail movement is a quality worth exploring

8. Because I chimed in, the entire mess is now in my lap

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I think it's obvious that Killer 7 isn't popular because of it's mechanics. Observe:

Quote
For instance, before Killer 7 was finished, Mikami told Suda to visit E3 and see what the US audience likes playing. Suda found that free-roaming style games were popular. However, Killer 7 was envisioned on rails; a set track that the player is forced to follow. He knew then that Killer 7 wouldn’t be popular in the US.

He asked himself and Mikami, “Should we change Killer 7 to a free-running game or should we keep it as a rail game?” Suda knew the answer: “I felt that rather than selling a lot, I went with the idea that I came up with originally.” Mikami told him to go ahead with his original idea, even though they both knew that the gameplay probably wouldn’t fly with US audiences.

Doesn't mean that a mere lack of popularity is a reason for condemnation.

You are right, popularity has nothing to do about it, there is much more to the game that ruins it for people. Take for example Beyond Good and Evil, that game wasn't popular but what made it different from Killer7 is that it was highly regarded from the get go.

Interestingly enough, I have some reasons for viewing that game not-so-glowingly...

[GoldenPhoenix]

Actually Evan didn't apologize, he still called Mashiro ignorant even after he stated why the game wasn't for him and mocked his post. The only reason he left is because Evan doesn't spend much time here, he spends enough time to be condescending and shoot someone down then leaves.

Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
I'm sorry that this comes off as "ignorance" to you but nothing will change my mind about that game or any other.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote of the year. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that deciding something without any facts or experience IS ignorance. But the conversation's over unless you want to move to another thread (where I will promptly drop the discussion since you've stated there's nothing to discuss).

Perhaps I am misreading but doesn't seem to be retracting his statement either but reaffirming it. Not to mention you forgot Dirk's post as well.  In addition that, it isn't just about Evan, but the arrogant mindset that Killer7 supporters show towards those who didn't drink the kool aid. Really it reminds me of fans of indepdent movies, it is this superiority complex people have because they are anti-big budget, pro-artistic films and feel that people who don't enjoy or appreciate them are stupid or are not getting it.

[Kairon]

Who said he apologized?

Anyways.

Svevan mentioned once on a podcast (the one where he pwned the "is videogames art" question) that he dislikes the idea of people hiding behind opinions. I think he'd rather we all tried to find a fact-based arena to duke it all out in.

But there's no such arena if we're just arguing whether some people have preferences that shift one way or the other. The sense of negativity you detect is his disdain for the "opinionizing" of the subject at hand. Once things are at the "my opinion, your opinion" stage, there's nothing left to discuss, as he said. It can't even be argued that Mashiro is ignorant since later on, Mashiro illustrated how he had made an informed decision about the game. This was all one grandiose miscommunication.

Boy, I'm getting plenty of chances to make new enemies today, especially with playing amateur psychologist. This will not end well. /scared  

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Svevan mentioned once on a podcast (the one where he pwned the "is videogames art" question) that he dislikes the idea of people hiding behind opinions. I think he'd rather we all tried to find a fact-based arena to duke it all out in.

But there's no such arena if we're just arguing whether some people have preferences that shift one way or the other. The sense of negativity you detect is his disdain for the "opinionizing" of the subject at hand. Once things are at the "my opinion, your opinion" stage, there's nothing left to discuss, as he said. It can't even be argued that Mashiro is ignorant since later on, Mashiro illustrated how he had made an informed decision about the game.

Boy, I'm getting plenty of chances to make new enemies today, especially with playing amateur psychologist. This will not end well. /scared

Funny how someone can critisize others for opiniosn when most of his posts are made up of exactly that. Everything boils down to opinion, and some things have to remain that realm. Let's say you like the taste of something and I don't, how in the heck are you going to argue that? The same applies to games or other forms of entertainment, people have different tastes, Evan obviously doesn't understand this can be possible. I really would not be surprised if he still considers Mashiro ignorant. Evan needs this little thing called being civil if he wants to get his point across, as of now he comes across as an insulting jerk at times.

Instead of saying something to the effect "Mashiro what exactly did you find not to your liking?" he called Mashiro Ignorant. Now if Evan is as smart as he portrays himself he would realize that as soon as you openly insult someone's education or intelligence that you have dwindled your chances of getting anything of substance, but instead put that person on the defensive.

[Kairon]

Ian! This is your chance! Post now, and no matter what you say people will love you in comparison!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Ian! This is your chance! Post now, and no matter what you say people will love you in comparison!

Funny you mention Ian, at least when he expresses his opinion he doesn't insult anyone. Evan could learn something from him. Though I hope Ian realizes we all just like giving him a hard time! I know I do. In fact this board would be pretty lonely without the mostly pessimistic Ian.  

[Kairon]

See Ian! What did I say! We <3 you already!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Anyway back to Bioshock. I can't wait to get back to it this weekend (HOLIDAY WEEKEND I ADD!).

[Mashiro]

Just for the record Carry-On () I never backtracked. To me the game does look like crap. Which is where the miscommunication you speak of may have happened as people took this as me saying the game IS crap. Which just wasn't the case.

Though to be fair most of my negativity of saying it looks bad should be taken literally as the visual style, to me, is terrible.

But yes enough arguing back to Bioshock discussion!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
Just for the record Carry-On () I never backtracked. To me the game does look like crap. Which is where the miscommunication you speak of may have happened as people took this as me saying the game IS crap. Which just wasn't the case.

Though to be fair most of my negativity of saying it looks bad should be taken literally as the visual style, to me, is terrible.

But yes enough arguing back to Bioshock discussion!

Stop trying to keep us on the track!

[Mashiro]

Lol, well I'll say this about Bioshock:

If I owned a 360 I would get it.

=)

However I am a tad confused, do you play AS a person without a suit of armor or as a person WITH a suit of underwater armor?

In the commercials "you" seem to get smacked way back into a wall or something and a bare arm is shown. That's why I ask. If so how do you survive under water?

[Kairon]

I thought that even though the city is underwater, it's pressurized? You know, like a space station.

[Sir_Stabbalot]

Yeah, the city is in a huge glass dome, but water is filling in many areas.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
Lol, well I'll say this about Bioshock:

If I owned a 360 I would get it.

=)

However I am a tad confused, do you play AS a person without a suit of armor or as a person WITH a suit of underwater armor?

In the commercials "you" seem to get smacked way back into a wall or something and a bare arm is shown. That's why I ask. If so how do you survive under water?

Ah, I can see your confusion. You are not really in the water, instead you are in an underwater city with breathable air. Also it doesn't appear you ever get a suit, instead early on you inject yourself with this genetic substance that gives you the ability to use different special moves such as lightning bolts (which can be shot into water to take out a bunch of enemies), flame, and even the ability to move items like the force and throw them.

This is where your moral connundrum comes into play, in order to upgrade your moves you need a particular substance, and the only way to get it is to suck it out of these girl/creatures called the Little Sisters who are defended by Big Daddy, her defender. When you kill the Big Daddy you are given the choice, harvest her "energy" which will kill her, or let her live with a vague promise from a character that you will be rewarded. This is compounded the sheer terror in the Little Sisters face when you pick her up to make this descision. It will disturb you to say the least.