Author Topic: Bioshock  (Read 68516 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #150 on: August 31, 2007, 06:44:38 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
I'm sorry that this comes off as "ignorance" to you but nothing will change my mind about that game or any other.


I just got how awesome this quote is!

Anyways, yeah, it's true that I'm not rushing out to buy some AWESOME JRPGs or something. I generally despise those games because of how much they've degenerated into interactive animes. And it's sad... I used to be SUCH an RPG fan in the SNES era... /sigh

Wait a second! Although I was avoiding anime for the longest time, I recently had Kodocha shown to me! Like, totally awesome! I might start watching anime again!
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline vudu

  • You'd probably all be better off if I really were dead.
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: -19
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #151 on: August 31, 2007, 07:18:36 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Edit: I know you like LOVE Killer7 ....
You're thinking of Karl; Karl loves Killer7.  Evan is just like any of us--thinks it's a great game, but doesn't necessarily want to give birth to Suda51's love child.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #152 on: August 31, 2007, 07:19:50 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Svevan
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
I'm sorry that this comes off as "ignorance" to you but nothing will change my mind about that game or any other.

Quote of the year. I'm not trying to be mean, just pointing out that deciding something without any facts or experience IS ignorance. But the conversation's over unless you want to move to another thread (where I will promptly drop the discussion since you've stated there's nothing to discuss).


Ok let me back Mashiro up, Killer7 is a clunky, limited game that does nothing besides style. It is a wannabe on rails shooter that forces you to use a visor to see the enemies, all of which look exactly the same way. The story is a pseudo intellectual attempt at being witty but really feels like the writers were on LSD when creating it. Variety? Ha look elsewhere, it is perhaps the most limited "full blown" game I've played in years. Low budget look and polish? Definately. Sloppy control scheme? Exactly.

I find it odd when Evan says someone else is ignorant we he himself has hardly even played the game he is critisizing, just seems to be a double standard there. Personally I have no problem basing a game off preliminary gameplay but when you go around calling others ignorant because they may not like what they've read of the game, then you look a tad bit foolish. It is really funny watching people freak out about Killer7, it is one of those games that the elite like to throw around as great, even though the vast majority think it is limited and frankly a poor gameplay experience, that is the poster child of poor variety, especially when it comes to character designs (Oh wow, I get to shoot different colored enemies that look exactly the same, woopie).

Then again what I am doing arguing with people like Evan that think MGS's story telling is a masterpiece in design? That shows me right there that someone would rather watch a game then play it, so I consider their opinion null and void when it comes to games like Killer7 which has built a fan base through its purty art style and wannabe intellectual storyline. Bioshock is not getting the praise it is getting for nothing, and I'm sorry Evan or others can't realize that. The game may not be revolutionary, but it will redefine the FPS genre for times to come with its utilization of strategy (Mixing weapons with the plasmids), making moral choices (Saving or killing the little sisters which impact you later on), utilization of visual cues to suck you into the gameplay, fully interactive story driven scenes, or the extreme sympathy you have towards even your enemies, who are not mindless drones (Or in Killer7s case annoying screaming color coded idiots).

Oh but I better not offend the cult of Killer7, a place for people to feel special and actually think they are getting a complex story and AMAZING game. Though I think there is a bit insecurity because they feel the need to openly insult the intelligence of someone who is not interested in it. But if you must know Mashiro, here is the story.

-Hitman with multiple personalities hired to killer bad guy
-United Nations Party wants to take over the world
-US and Japan become at war, east vs west
-Lots of goofy stuff about killing his own team
-Bad guy is killed, both are resurrected 100 years later

Basically it is about the convenient plot device of someone being crazy and not realizing things about themselves mixed with Castlevania good vs evil every 100 years. This is obviously disregarding the torturous gameplay you must go through to get to it. Also, perhaps I am mistaken but didn't Killer7 have you collect diaries as well to give you part of the story?
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #153 on: August 31, 2007, 08:40:01 AM »
I remember reading an early article about Bioshock in GI and I got the impression they were planning to make the plasmids optional. I think perhaps they ran out of time/resources to do everything they wanted to do.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #154 on: August 31, 2007, 08:54:55 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I remember reading an early article about Bioshock in GI and I got the impression they were planning to make the plasmids optional. I think perhaps they ran out of time/resources to do everything they wanted to do.


That would have been pretty neat, maybe we'll see it in the sequel.
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #155 on: August 31, 2007, 09:31:23 AM »
Thanks for the back up GP.

As for my "awesome" quote . . .

Yeah how many of you on these forums are EVER swayed by anyones discussion? I'm only being honest, but I guess some people just wouldn't understand that.

All I am saying is I KNOW my own tastes, Killer7 doesn't look like a game I will enjoy and based on what I have read / heard about it I can come to the conclusion that I don't need to try it.

Sorry that someone doesn't want to try a mediocre title that people declare as "deep".

And to answer your question, I don't mind games that are deep, but being "deep" is one aspect of a game and isn't a buying point for me. A better argument would have been "what's wrong? don't like good gameplay and great visuals with a good story?" Sadly it lacks the first two selling points so . . . yeah pass for me.

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #156 on: August 31, 2007, 09:39:36 AM »
GP is currently trying to convince me to buy Carnival games. &P
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #157 on: August 31, 2007, 09:40:01 AM »
I enjoy deep things, heck I enjoy a deep game but it has to have something more than a story or visual style, there has to be some meat on it, it has to be FUN. When I was playing Killer7 my only interest was the story and it was a chore to keep my interest going after shooting the billionth wave of screaming bad guys, some of which I just got done mowing down but respawned.  What I like about a game like Bioshock is that it has very solid gameplay mechanics behind the style and story. Heck I think the radio story is great, it is very mysterious (Who is this guy? Is he leading me on?), not to mention the fully interactive story sequences, you feel like you are there. In a game like Killer7 you really didn't feel like you were there, you felt like you were on rails in a barebones game, going from one sequence to the next.

In all honest was the story pretty decent? Yeah it was, though I thought it tried a bit too hard. A complex story is one thing, but a farfetched complex story is another. Now if it was a novel (I see there is a book of sorts) I may have been far more inclined to get interested in it, but as it stands, it is a chore to play, which is not what I call an engrossing experience.
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #158 on: August 31, 2007, 09:40:30 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
GP is currently trying to convince me to buy Carnival games. &P


Well I'll let you know how it is.
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #159 on: August 31, 2007, 09:41:42 AM »
Ohhhh,  when I get home, I think I'll be making GP a deadvatar, too.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #160 on: August 31, 2007, 09:44:53 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thatguy
Ohhhh,  when I get home, I think I'll be making GP a deadvatar, too.


I didn't die though!
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #161 on: August 31, 2007, 09:45:02 AM »
And for the record:

Quote

just pointing out that deciding something without any facts or experience


Who says I didn't have facts about the game? I read reviews, saw demos, saw video clips . . . it wasn't like I just thought of the title and said "no". I made an educated decision based on the information presented to me from various sources and came to a conclusion that this game wasn't for me.

Sorry for debunking your ignorance statement but it had to be done.

"Not to be mean" but condescending should be a word you become familiar with Evan.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #162 on: August 31, 2007, 09:49:00 AM »
"does nothing besides style"
"Low budget look and polish? Definately"
^ These do not shake hands.

"is a clunky, limited game"
"It is a wannabe on rails shooter"
^ This is a rail shooter.

"It is a wannabe on rails shooter"
"the enemies, all of which look exactly the same way"
^ This IS a rail shooter, afterall.

"the enemies, all of which look exactly the same way"
^ Even the most critically acclaimed games have prevailing, standard enemy types that exist to the end of the game.  But that's just a harmful, sweeping generalization you just made, like you conveniently forgot that enemy sets do get shuffled as you progress thru the game. n/m, you really did forget

"forces you to use a visor to see the enemies"
^ What a relief!  They'd be hard to kill since they're invisible!  Is clicking the L-trigger too much work for you? much harder than fetch questing, confirmed

"Sloppy control scheme? Exactly."
"It is a wannabe on rails shooter."
^ So let's see, just like RE4, you hold R-trigger to raise your weapon, aim with the analog stick, and press A to fire -- established FPS aiming conventions with a forgiving degree of turning sensity, since it did feel comparable to Wind Waker's sensitivity -- and we know that works since you've apparently beaten killer7.  And it's a RAIL SHOOTER, so you mainly move forward -- press A to move forward, check.  But we can backtrack -- press B to turn around, press A to move forward, check.  And it's a rail shooter, so there's no reason to walk elsewhere or sidestep, strafe, etc., check.  And it's a rail shooter, so all points and objects of interest are planted along the rail path, eliminating the need to walk off the rail path, check.  Therefore we've got a rail shooter, minus lightgun peripheral, with some extra choices provided to the player.  That's not sloppy, just mind-numbingly simple and unambitious.

"This is obviously disregarding the torturous gameplay you must go through to get to it"
^ You play all of killer7 and not Metroid Prime's 1-2 hour fetch quest?  Right.

"Also, perhaps I am mistaken but didn't Killer7 have you collect diaries as well to give you part of the story?"
^ Yeah, clues and backstory were delivered (not exclusively) this way.  I think it only has a third of the total text Metroid Prime provided in backstory scans.

I see what you're trying to argue but it feels like you're not realizing something.  killer7 is obviously a rail shooter, yet you keep treating it like it was intended to be something bigger and ambitious, like the typical latest action-adventure on the market.  It never was.  It was a weirdo rail shooter, "all" the reviews and previews said, and being the media-aware gaming interwebber you are, this idea should've sank in before you began playing.  Cuz it sounds like you're knocking the game, but more like you have issues with an arcade genre derivative that should never have been adapted to consoles [at the time].

I also think the tension HERE is between people who enjoy becoming proficient at games vs. people who casually enjoy games.  I enjoyed killer7 as an easy, refreshing, amusing experience [this is my "casual"] compared to likes of name-taking challenges like RE4 and MP2E [heavy-hitters I enjoy "practicing" by revisiting the tough fights].

Regarding killer7's story, the people who dig it don't care much about the good vs. evil/political/east-west tension/terrorism thing.  About a third thru the game it's apparent that stuff is not important.  What we do like is the question of how much of the events actually take place, within its reality -- that's something that plays with our memory and expectations.  But of course, the wacky psycho stuff throughout the game is also comedy gold.

EDIT: svevan should not have made that kind of a comment.  and mashiro should've made that statement about sticking with "preferences" earlier.  There's a bunch of people who were here years ago? wouldn't deal with RE4 simply cuz zombies and horror stuff were of no interest.  That's fine.
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #163 on: August 31, 2007, 09:51:57 AM »
Wait, what game is Pro talking about, and who is he talking to?  I got lost somewhere.

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #164 on: August 31, 2007, 09:54:19 AM »
Quote

"does nothing besides style"
"Low budget look and polish? Definately"
^ These do not shake hands.


Erem style doesn't mean it has to look good.

She's indicating it has a style too it and that's all. The style in this case is that of looking (in my eyes) simplistic without polish so I tend to agree with her.

As for her other statements I see where they come from, as some people on this forum make Killer7 out to be one hell of a game when all it is is your average shooter. Woopie-de-doo.

Edit: He's talking to GP.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #165 on: August 31, 2007, 09:54:24 AM »
non-game.

no-body.
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline vudu

  • You'd probably all be better off if I really were dead.
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: -19
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #166 on: August 31, 2007, 09:56:09 AM »
Pro forgot to mention that the Colosseum has the greatest music ever.  EVER.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Mashiro

  • Silent Protagonist
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #167 on: August 31, 2007, 09:58:50 AM »
Quote

wouldn't deal with RE4 simply cuz zombies and horror stuff were of no interest. That's fine.


Ahhh see now, I never said I didn't give things a chance.

I NEVER got into the RE series UNTIL 4 because I saw the great scores it got and WHY it got those scores. Great gameplay (which enhanced the series far beyond it's pitiful roots), great graphics,  amazing atmosphere and Capcom made what seemed to be an all around enjoyable game.

Just because I have preferences and gut feelings about games DOESN'T mean I don't keep an open mind to certain games just because of their past or just because they are new. I just tend to have a good idea of what I will enjoy and what I won't based on seeing the game in action, what is said about it and how I perceive the game to be.  

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #168 on: August 31, 2007, 09:59:26 AM »
Colosseum? or The Gatekeeper?

~~~~~

A lot of people here are big on "charm".  A lot of people here find killer7's wacko style and story charming and amusing.  The story takes itself seriously, but some have found it digestable and delicious unlike the way MGS handles itself.

killer7 was no winner in the reviews dur.  it was more about taking a risk than giving it a chance.  so the love/hate review statements are SPOT-ON.
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline vudu

  • You'd probably all be better off if I really were dead.
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: -19
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #169 on: August 31, 2007, 10:01:15 AM »
Yeah, that Gatekeeper.  That song rocks.  I'm going to have to look for that mp3 when I get home.  DUNDUN-DUN--DUN---DUN-DUN---DUNDUN--DUN !!!
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #170 on: August 31, 2007, 10:07:54 AM »
LOL
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

  • Now it's a party!
  • Score: 42
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #171 on: August 31, 2007, 10:12:06 AM »
Killer7 isn't really an on rails shooter though, at least in the traditional sense, it is a hybrid. I personally love on-rails shooters but Killer7's goofy mvoement, choose your direction design, not to mention the use of visors sucked even more fun out of it. It was really dissapointing when I first played Killer7 because I bought it back when it got such a cult following and was $50, I wanted to like it but I couldn't. Heck I have a friend who LOVES the game but even he admits the gameplay got to be a bit of a chore and is shallow, though he finds that the style made up for it.

Don't get me wrong, if you like Killer7 fine, but also understand there are reasons why people don't like it. Or in Mashiro's case, the game obviously is not for him and yet he is called ignorant which I felt was way out of line.
Switch Friend Code: SW-4185-3173-1144

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #172 on: August 31, 2007, 10:15:27 AM »
I'd actually like to see more experimentation that simplifies movement.

People don't think "walk left, right, forward, rotate," people walk FORWARD most of the time. Our impetus is only to walk forward, and subconsciously we handle direction. What about games where movement is controlled by just one button? Direction and all that other stuff is handled instinctually/intuitively, and the only actual discrete and explicit input needed is the command to "move."

That's what Killer 7 sort of does, and that's why I'm curious in seeing more rail-movement experimentations in the future.
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline vudu

  • You'd probably all be better off if I really were dead.
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: -19
    • View Profile
RE: Bioshock
« Reply #173 on: August 31, 2007, 10:17:42 AM »
You're a bit of a chore and shallow.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Kairon

  • T_T
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: 48
    • View Profile
RE:Bioshock
« Reply #174 on: August 31, 2007, 10:20:24 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Don't get me wrong, if you like Killer7 fine, but also understand there are reasons why people don't like it. Or in Mashiro's case, the game obviously is not for him and yet he is called ignorant which I felt was way out of line.


As long as you concede that awesome isn't for everyone. And Killer 7 is awesome!

Seriously, I'm reacting this way because it's been implied that Killer 7 is a bad game. It isn't. It has flaws. So did Super Paper Mario. So what? The game is beloved by many because of qualities that exist, whether or not they appeal to you.
Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.