Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Read 460702 times)

Arbok · « **Reply #325 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:23:58 AM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
My primary gripe with him is that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for me to KNOW him as a character without learning Japanese or finding a hacked translated FE rom.

I'd have no problem if they included Ike or the hero from the new FE game on the Wii because I can play the game and learn about him. I didn't play Earthbound until I unlocked Ness in SSB.

Well then I'm just thankful that the game is made with the Japanese crowd in mind, instead of what the US one is familiar with. The fact that the FE characters made it into the game is part of the reason why we have FE games here now, and if nothing more people in the states are familiar with them at this point after they have already showed up in Melee.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #326 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:25:10 AM »

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Originally posted by: Arbok
Well then I'm just thankful that the game is made with the Japanese crowd in mind, instead of what the US one is familiar with. The fact that the FE characters made it into the game is part of the reason why we have FE games here now, and if nothing more people in the states are familiar with them at this point after they have already showed up in Melee.

Except for the fact that neither Marth or Roy appeared in a game which was ever released in the US, yeah.

vudu · « **Reply #327 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:25:59 AM »

I really hope the Ice Climbers stay. I love Popo and Nana.

Mewto can get the axe, as can Pichu and Dr Mario. Marth & Roy should be replaced by Ike.

Arbok · « **Reply #328 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:27:03 AM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Except for the fact that neither Marth or Roy appeared in a game which was ever released in the US, yeah.

Oh really?

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #329 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:29:00 AM »

A Fire Emblem game, silly.

And in SSBM, they both only speak Japanese.

Spak-Spang · « **Reply #330 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:33:58 AM »

Arbok: Pretty much most of what you want with Princess Peach could still be in the game if they added Emotion based powers to her.

They can keep her same regular moves, but her butt slam special move, and her toad deflect move were rather weak. Her turnip move definately needs to stay, but it would be fun to make it even more random. Occassional she pulls up a bomb would be funny.

They could just keep the character similar but give her a power move that changes her mood...and different moods effects how she places. Angry gives her move power, but is slower. Happy she is normal. Sad she is weaker, but has higher defenses, I dunno something.

Arbok · « **Reply #331 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:35:21 AM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
A Fire Emblem game, silly.

And in SSBM, they both only speak Japanese.

Is that a problem? If you wanna get technical, they appear in the ending of the GBA Fire Emblem game that made it to the US. Also Marth is the most popular character from the series with his numerous Fire Emblem appearances, and his inclusion in the Anime helping this aspect. Roy could get the axe because: A. He was a clone, and B. He was included simply to promote the recent Fire Emblem game at that time.

Again, though, this game is made with the Japanese public in mind. They are polling Japanese gamers, not ones in the States. So stating that a character is likely to be removed simply because America is not familiar with them isn't all that inline with what we know and sounds more like wishful thinking (which I hope will not come to pass as I love Marth and as do many others who have played Melee).

EDIT: Also, forgot to mention since you seem to focus only on the US, you should consider that Anime fans were already familiar with Marth before Melee as ADV brought over the Fire Emblem movie in 1998:

Link

Arbok · « **Reply #332 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:38:23 AM »

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Arbok: Pretty much most of what you want with Princess Peach could still be in the game if they added Emotion based powers to her.

They can keep her same regular moves, but her butt slam special move, and her toad deflect move were rather weak. Her turnip move definately needs to stay, but it would be fun to make it even more random. Occassional she pulls up a bomb would be funny.

They could just keep the character similar but give her a power move that changes her mood...and different moods effects how she places. Angry gives her move power, but is slower. Happy she is normal. Sad she is weaker, but has higher defenses, I dunno something.

Umm... she does occassionally pull up a Bomb.

Anyway, yeah I could see how replacing her Toad move with a emotion thing could be kind of cool, giving her random properties depending on what she gets... although that Toad move, even though weak, was brilliant in design. Also, please consider that her "hip move" was excellent for recovery as well (I suggest watching some tournament streams to see how to abuse her). She was overall fairly top tier after all.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #333 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:49:50 AM »

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Originally posted by: Arbok Is that a problem? If you wanna get technical, they appear in the ending of the GBA Fire Emblem game that made it to the US. Also Marth is the most popular character from the series with his numerous Fire Emblem appearances, and his inclusion in the Anime helping this aspect. Roy could get the axe because: A. He was a clone, and B. He was included simply to promote the recent Fire Emblem game at that time.

I own the Fire Emblem anime because it was the only way I could hope to understand Marth as a character and it only had a pilot episode in the states and was never continued.

Also, some of the characters in the anime were absolutely BAD ASS and would have made for far more compelling characters than Marth.

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Again, though, this game is made with the Japanese public in mind. They are polling Japanese gamers, not ones in the States. So stating that a character is likely to be removed simply because American is not familiar with them isn't all that inline with what we know and sounds more like wishful thinking (which I hope will not come to pass as I love Marth and as do many others who have played Melee).

And it's that kind of thinking which caused Halo to outsell SSBM.

I don't want Marth REMOVED from the game: I want him nerfed to a reasonable level and for FE to be represented by a character who can be understood by both Japan and beyond.

Also, since FE is an ongoing franchise, I wouldn't be surprised if Marth WAS replaced by a current character, sort of sampling the current franchises to see who represents them.

In fact, I'm guessing we can expect to see THIS guy: the hero of FE Wii.

Arbok · « **Reply #334 on:** May 23, 2006, 09:55:18 AM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
And it's that kind of thinking which caused Halo to outsell SSBM.

So Marth and Roy are now the nefarious pair behind the Xbox beating out the Gamecube in the states...?

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I don't want Marth REMOVED from the game: I want him nerfed to a reasonable level and for FE to be represented by a character who can be understood by both Japan and beyond.

He is going to be nerfed, he is the most unbalanced character at the moment and I never stated that I wanted to leave him as top tier, just that he shouldn't be removed.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Also, since FE is an ongoing franchise, I wouldn't be surprised if Marth WAS replaced by a current character, sort of sampling the current franchises to see who represents them.

In fact, I'm guessing we can expect to see THIS guy: the hero of FE Wii.

Again, I would expect Roy to be removed, not Marth. Roy was the flavor of the month as stated, Marth was the stable of the series in Japan much in the same way that Cloud is for Final Fantasy even though he doesn't star in the current story lines in the games outside of more stuff related to VII.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #335 on:** May 23, 2006, 10:00:50 AM »

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Originally posted by: Arbok
So Marth and Roy are now the nefarious pair behind the Xbox beating out the Gamecube in the states...?

No, it's Nintendo's inability to think beyond the island which has put them in 3rd in the US and beyond. Marth and Roy are just an example of that logic at work.

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Again, I would expect Roy to be removed, not Marth. Roy was the flavor of the month as stated, Marth was the stable of the series in Japan much in the same way that Cloud is for Final Fantasy even though he doesn't star in the current story lines in the games outside of more stuff related to VII.

That's fine, but out of all the franchises in SSBM, FE was the only one which received regular sequels which brought a completely new cast of characters to the table.

Roy can get the axe for sure, but I wouldn't be shocked to find out that both Marth AND Roy were replaced by current FE characters, possibly this young lady, to boot.

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #336 on:** May 23, 2006, 10:03:56 AM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I own the Fire Emblem anime because it was the only way I could hope to understand Marth as a character and it only had a pilot episode in the states and was never continued.

I don't get why you need to understand Marth as a character to use him to bash Pikachu with a baseball bat.

Roy's my boy, so I don't want him to be removed. I don't use Marth, but a friend of mine really likes him. If the c-stick is the source of the complaints about these characters, the solution is to remove c-stick smashes. I don't even like that feature, and with online play, the preferred method of dealing with someone who abuses it won't work anymore.

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #337 on:** May 23, 2006, 10:10:18 AM »

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Originally posted by: PartyBear
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I own the Fire Emblem anime because it was the only way I could hope to understand Marth as a character and it only had a pilot episode in the states and was never continued.

I don't get why you need to understand Marth as a character to use him to bash Pikachu with a baseball bat.

Roy's my boy, so I don't want him to be removed. I don't use Marth, but a friend of mine really likes him. If the c-stick is the source of the complaints about these characters, the solution is to remove c-stick smashes. I don't even like that feature, and with online play, the preferred method of dealing with someone who abuses it won't work anymore.

OK, let me explain S_B's logic to you...

One of the main factors behind the success of SSB is the nostalgia that the characters emit greatly. Mario represents an entire Nintendo legacy. Link represents the massive and magical adventures fans have had with Nintendo throughout the years. Pikachu represents a fun worldwide phenomenon and Kirby represents everything that makes Nintendo games great.

Fans have a lot of sentimental value towards the characters in SSB, and that happened because the games were released and fully marketed in the US. The same cannot be said with Marth and Roy because no FE game made it to the states.

How can you love and understand a character that hasn't even appeared in the US? How can you understand what makes them extremely cool character?

True, they do have mini bios in their trophies, but that is not enough to fully coprehend why he is what he is.

You have a point that in this game you really don't need to "know" the character in order to use him, but it certainly adds A LOT to the experience once you know who he is...

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #338 on:** May 23, 2006, 10:31:05 AM »

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Originally posted by: pap64
One of the main factors behind the success of SSB is the nostalgia that the characters emit greatly. Mario represents an entire Nintendo legacy. Link represents the massive and magical adventures fans have had with Nintendo throughout the years. Pikachu represents a fun worldwide phenomenon and Kirby represents everything that makes Nintendo games great.

The Fire Emblem series is one of Nintendo's oldest, and unlike some of the ones represented in Melee, it's never been left to rot for an extended period. Ice Climber was one game, but if I suggest dropping Popo and Nana from the next Smash Bros. I'll get shot down (again).

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Fans have a lot of sentimental value towards the characters in SSB, and that happened because the games were released and fully marketed in the US. The same cannot be said with Marth and Roy because no FE game made it to the states.

So they shouldn't be there for the people who do know them? Would you prefer it if the FE characters were removed from all the non-Japanese versions of the game? We could get a representative of some other one-time NES release that no one cares about anymore for the U.S. version! How about Professors Hector and Vector?

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How can you love and understand a character that hasn't even appeared in the US? How can you understand what makes them extremely cool character?

True, they do have mini bios in their trophies, but that is not enough to fully coprehend why he is what he is.

Every other character in the game besides the FE ones can be summed up in the space of a trophy description. These are the only characters even remotely complex enough for this criticism to apply to, which makes it seem like a double standard.

Edit: spelling.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #339 on:** May 23, 2006, 12:17:38 PM »

Pap basically hit the nail on the head. When I first played SSB, I played as Link because I had just finished OoT and he was the character I loved the most of any of them. The same went for Samus and all of the Metroid players.

In the case of FE, no one in the US would know who Marth or Roy was without some research.

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Originally posted by: PartyBear
Every other character in the game besides the FE ones can be summed up in the space of a trophy description. These are the only characters even remotely complex enough for this criticism to apply to, which makes it seem like a double standard.

Sorry, Bear, but I'm going to have to stop you there.

We here at PGC alone have gone on for pages and pages of discussion about characters like Link or Samus. There's no way in hell the little trophy blurbs do justice for them.

And you kind of argue in favor of Pap's point: the blurbs DON'T do their characters justice and therefore it is indeed imperative that players learn about them outside of SSBM, but in the case of Marth and Roy, they cannot.

I don't care about them as characters. I've never played their games so I cannot relate to their struggles nor can I understand their hardships. The reason why I loved playing as Link or Bowser was because I like their angles and can understand their depth. The same cannot and never will be said with M & R unless they release a translated FE compilation disc to the US (which would rule).

Also, the anime was pretty crap. The supporting cast was so much deeper and downright cooler than Marth that he came across as a wet noodle.

vudu · « **Reply #340 on:** May 23, 2006, 12:25:19 PM »

Shut up. Shut up shut up shut up. Shut up.

Japan likes Marth. Japan likes Roy.

Nintendo gives them Marth & Roy.

NOA has two options: keep them in there or remove them. I think they made the right choice.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #341 on:** May 23, 2006, 01:02:13 PM »

Not saying they made the wrong choice. I AM saying that, now that we have a plethora of FE characters known to both the english-speaking territories and beyond, don't be surprised if M & R DID get the axe in favor of two of those.

Given the pictures of the castle in the SSBB trailer and the fact that no one can get an exact match on the flags and any current FE game, I'd say that the villain from the Wii FE game will be in there (red flags tend to indicate villains, as well as the dragon on the flag). Unless they want 3-4 FE characters, Marth and Roy will likely be replaced by the hero from FE Wii and the villain.

People have theories about THIS guy already...

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #342 on:** May 23, 2006, 01:15:06 PM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Sorry, Bear, but I'm going to have to stop you there.

Strictly speaking, that was the end of my post, so you didn't have to.

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We here at PGC alone have gone on for pages and pages of discussion about characters like Link or Samus. There's no way in hell the little trophy blurbs do justice for them.

Right there I think you're confusing "do justice" and "sum up." Honestly, though, I don't know Fire Emblem well enough to know how much is left out of the blurb. It could be just as close as any of the others.

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And you kind of argue in favor of Pap's point: the blurbs DON'T do their characters justice and therefore it is indeed imperative that players learn about them outside of SSBM, but in the case of Marth and Roy, they cannot.

That wasn't arguing in favor of the point. That was arguing that the point itself is unfair and therefore irrelevant. It does not matter that you, personally, don't know anything about Marth. Millions of people do.

Arbok · « **Reply #343 on:** May 23, 2006, 01:24:13 PM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
And you kind of argue in favor of Pap's point: the blurbs DON'T do their characters justice and therefore it is indeed imperative that players learn about them outside of SSBM, but in the case of Marth and Roy, they cannot.

I don't care about them as characters. I've never played their games so I cannot relate to their struggles nor can I understand their hardships. The reason why I loved playing as Link or Bowser was because I like their angles and can understand their depth. The same cannot and never will be said with M & R unless they release a translated FE compilation disc to the US (which would rule).

Unlike the deep and rich histories behind Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, and Pit. Characters whom everyone is instantly familiar with, and who have become as rooted in video game culture as Mario, Pacman, and Megaman... am I right?

Your whole argument seems to be that SSB is kind of an exclusive club, where only the most well known characters in all territories can make the cut. An argument which is more or less flawed with the starring inclusion of Pit in this game, which hardly anyone beyond die hard Nintendo fans know about. Also, in the case of Game and Watch... how much can a player learn about him today that isn't done through a internet search or through reading the trophy bios? I think you underestimate that the series is still about Nintendo's history, and characters like Marth, although not well known in the US outside of the Anime, embody the Fire Emblem series in Japan and just because he isn't in the current run of the stories does not mean that he will be axed out in favor of upcoming Wii game characters.

Of course it's all moot talk at this point, as Sakurai and his team are likely still figuring out the roster, although the fact that they are reaching out to fans in Japan makes this still seem clear that they are very much focusing the end product on their tastes as opposed to a Western audience.

Athrun Zala · « **Reply #344 on:** May 23, 2006, 02:34:46 PM »

Roy=Samus>Link>>>>>>...n....>>>everyone else

I like Roy too much in SSBM, and despite similar moveset, he plays diferently than Marth....I hope he doesn't get the axe T_T (and I find the C-Stick thing pretty uncomfortable, so I don't use it)

and I'd rather have new movesets for the clones instead of being axed.......

on a side note, kicking friend's butts with either Mr G&W or Jigglypuff is the best IMO

Nick DiMola · « **Reply #345 on:** May 23, 2006, 03:42:31 PM »

I would be very angry if any players were axed from SSBB. I personally use Ganondorf and I could easily see him getting the axe due to the fact that he is a clone. I coudn't agree more with Athrun Zala, the real solution is a new move set, something to differentiate the clones. Plus the larger the roster the better! I love booting up Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and having a huge number of fighters to chose from each with their own unique moves.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #346 on:** May 23, 2006, 04:47:08 PM »

Take note of one thing: Link in SSBB is the NEW Link from TP, not the former Link, not WW Link (though he might make an appearance, who knows). Samus is now "Zero Suit Samus". Wario is dressed as he is from Wario Ware, not from his many, MANY former games.

I have no PROBLEM with Marth and Roy: I didn't break the disc over my knee after unlocking them or something stupid like that.

I DO think that the purpose of SSB is nostalgia and it's hard to be nostalgic about characters I've never known, but that's not even the point now.

The point is, if they want to represent the FE franchise, they have NEW characters who have games which they could use their presence in SSBB to help sell the game, mainly FE Wii.

Crimm · « **Reply #347 on:** May 23, 2006, 05:31:02 PM »

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"We'd work to make the game independently, but we might be told to simply focus on making the game Wi-Fi compatible, and may be instructed not to lay a hand on any of the 26 characters in the current game, Super Smash Bros. Melee."

That was what Satoru Iwata told Masahiro Sakurai about their plans for Super Smash Bros. if Sakurai wasn't going to be involved.

You can read that one of two ways, Iwata wants to keep the same character base, or Sakurai pointed this quote out as to say "we will add new ones, but also mess with old ones."

IceCold · « **Reply #348 on:** May 23, 2006, 05:59:06 PM »

I want this to take all the time it needs; sometime around Christmas in 2007 would be fine, especially considering how many other good games are available.

Arbok · « **Reply #349 on:** May 23, 2006, 06:25:11 PM »

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Take note of one thing: Link in SSBB is the NEW Link from TP, not the former Link, not WW Link (though he might make an appearance, who knows). Samus is now "Zero Suit Samus". Wario is dressed as he is from Wario Ware, not from his many, MANY former games.

He's still Link though. There is a difference between changing a character's appearance to match what they looked like last in a video game, versus removing characters altogether simply because their games are no longer "current."

Also, where did you get the impression that Samus is getting taken out for "Zero Suit Samus"? The whole "newcomer" thing seems to point at this being an all new character, not something that will replace the suited Samus, which would be a horrible idea.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I DO think that the purpose of SSB is nostalgia and it's hard to be nostalgic about characters I've never known, but that's not even the point now.

The point is, if they want to represent the FE franchise, they have NEW characters who have games which they could use their presence in SSBB to help sell the game, mainly FE Wii.

Again, that was the purpose of Roy being in Melee... but not Marth's, as his storyline was not for the most recent game when Melee was released.

If the true purpose of SSB is nostalgia, also figure that Marth being in several games vs. characters like the Ice Climbers and Pit who have been in one game (two, I suppose, if you count the GB version of Kid Icarus) means that more people in Japan have also been exposed to this character even if they currently aren't featured in the series.

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Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Read 460702 times)