Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[KDR_11k]

Bear: Who said anything about unsigned binaries? The firmware itself could check the permanent storage for any patch files and load them instead of the file on the disc when requested. I don't think that'd be much slower than the disc drive and the executables are usually in memory all the time. Of course patch files would have to be signed. The system can already play ROMs and might run downloadable games and demos so I don't think this would be the only avenue of attack if you wanted to get binaries in there. Never mind that standardiing patches is much better than allowing Sega to implement their own easily exploited methods.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Athrun Zala yep, and Jill as well, which I see more probable as she already has a fighter-game moveset created that could very well apply to SSBB (the MvC2 one), unlike Leon who has....well, nothing

Did you PLAY RE4?!? (why am I getting deja vu?)

Not only does Leon have a plethora of explosives at his disposal (which are fair game in SSB, from what it seems), but he also has a series of devastating roundhouse kicks and the dreaded "holocaust suplex", which is the term my wrestling-fan friends gave for the modified German suplex which Leon performs on enemies (a German suplex drops them on their back while Leon's suplex drops them on their HEAD, which would likely result in a fatal attack on a normal human being).

I don't think Jill's moveset in MvC would translate well to SSBB as SSBB has to be balanced around what other characters are capable of. Any movesets will likely be original to SSBB.  

[UltimatePartyBear]

KDR:  I was perhaps skipping ahead of myself.  Being able to run executable files from the user-writable storage at all would be a pathway pirates could use to get unsigned code to run.  Downloadable Wii games would probably be launched from another app built into the system like the virtual console.  This is still vulnerable to exploits through buffer overflows in the game code, but that's a risk even when running the code off a game disc.  If the console checked for new executables on startup every time, it would be possible to exploit the console itself without even needing a game.  As for speed, my thinking is that first the game would begin to start up normally, reach the part of the program that checks for a new version of itself, and then, if it finds one, reset and use the new version instead.  I can't really say how fast or slow that would be, but I'm guessing it'll take a couple of seconds to search for the file, and a couple more would be wasted resetting, and every second feels interminable when waiting for a game to load.

Regardless, I don't want my console games to be patchable.  If there is a truly awful showstopping bug, the proper way to deal with it is a product recall.  If all they want to do is change how much damage Bowser takes when swallowed by Kirby, it's not worth it.

[AnyoneEB]

On patching, if the balance data was stored in a separate file instead of being hard coded into the executable, then a balance patch would be tiny. Maybe 20KB maximum. Of course, if it is actually fixing a bug in an executable, it may be a bit bigger.

PartyBear: (1) Everything will be signed to prevent user code from getting run, just like on XBox.
(2) Reading from flash takes milliseconds, not seconds. It is solid state, so the seek time is zero, and it can be read quite fast (not as fast as RAM, but much faster than a hard drive).

On the other hand, I agree that allow patches encourages the release of uncompleted/buggy games.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Leon's suplex drops them on their HEAD, which would likely result in a fatal attack on a norman human being).

Sounds like Leon has a lot of gaul.

Edit:

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Originally posted by: AnyoneEB
On patching, if the balance data was stored in a separate file instead of being hard coded into the executable, then a balance patch would be tiny. Maybe 20KB maximum. Of course, if it is actually fixing a bug in an executable, it may be a bit bigger.

Then people could edit the balance data for their own game.  Even if you catch that when they play online, they'd still be able to make themselves kill Master Hand (if he returns) with one hit.  That seems unlikely to me.

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PartyBear: (1) Everything will be signed to prevent user code from getting run, just like on XBox.

So that's why there's no piracy on the Xbox?  Oh wait...

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(2) Reading from flash takes milliseconds, not seconds. It is solid state, so the seek time is zero, and it can be read quite fast (not as fast as RAM, but much faster than a hard drive).

Depends.  I hope it's fast, but it takes more than milliseconds to load up game saves in some games, even when they're not all that big, and that's similar technology.  I haven't worked with solid state storage before, so I don't know how much of the speed is a product of software.

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On the other hand, I agree that allow patches encourages the release of uncompleted/buggy games.

As long as we agree here, nothing else matters.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: PartyBear
Sounds like Leon has a lot of gaul.

Oy...that one left a mark...  

[Athrun Zala]

SB: yeah, I thought of those movements as I was writing.
But the thing is, he has only those, then he uses guns, which if you remember Sakurai isn't very fond of (as evidenced by the fact that Snake is going to use explosives.....instead of the gun he uses in the MG games....). The point was that Jill already has a non weapon based moveset, that could fit somewhat with the SSB universe (yeah, one is a Firefox clone and the others are zombie and Tyrant summons, but still.....) so she may be easier to add to the game.

[Dirk Temporo]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Snake Sliskin

Something's not right here. I'll leave it to you to figure out.

Also, I never really figured Snake as being the prototype for all stealth characters after him. I mean, Sam Fisher as a character is completely different from Snake. Way cooler too.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Athrun Zala
SB: yeah, I thought of those movements as I was writing.
But the thing is, he has only those, then he uses guns, which if you remember Sakurai isn't very fond of (as evidenced by the fact that Snake is going to use explosives.....instead of the gun he uses in the MG games....). The point was that Jill already has a non weapon based moveset, that could fit somewhat with the SSB universe (yeah, one is a Firefox clone and the others are zombie and Tyrant summons, but still.....) so she may be easier to add to the game.

It's a tough call. I'd like to see Leon because I think his character is better developed, but we'll have to see if any RE characters make it in at all.

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Something's not right here. I'll leave it to you to figure out.

Oh, right, Pliskin. Wasn't a big fan of "Escape from _____" movies.

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Also, I never really figured Snake as being the prototype for all stealth characters after him. I mean, Sam Fisher as a character is completely different from Snake. Way cooler too.

Fisher is far, far more generic than Snake, that and the stories to his games suck ass where as MGS tells a much better story and allows you to actually influence the plot and how it unfolds in certain places.

Fisher is just far too much of the "supersecretspyrepletewithsaltydemeanor" stereotype and the plot in Splinter Cell is as predictable as the Tom Clancy novels he was ripped from.

[Spak-Spang]

"Snake (real name Dave) is many, many things, but the very LAST adjective I would ever use for him is "generic".

He was based off of a combination of Snake Sliskin and Christopher Walken, and here's a news flash for you: everything he does, he does unwillingly. He HATES war, but he was genetically created to BE a soldier. He had to kill his own father, his own brother wants him dead and he himself would like nothing more than to leave combat forever, but as the MGS4 trailer reveals, the only way to do that might just be to take his own life.

His entire character is a protest from creator Hideo Kojima about nuclear war, having seen first-hand the devastation nuclear war can exact upon a people, and for you to call him "generic" is to spit into the face of all of that.

I'll readily admit that the characters who ripped him off later were rather generic, but play a MGS game before you go saying crap like that based on Snake's appearance alone. "

Actually yes.  That does seem very generic to me.  Basically he is the still the basic Super Solider storyline.  He questions himself and war, but he is always forced into it, because that is what he is created to do.  Now he is even aging faster and stuff.

He is still a great character, and I like his story, but you can't say it isn't generic...because it is.  Sorry.  

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Oy...that one left a mark...

Sorry.  I was just being frank.

So if Snake is so opposed to combat, does that mean he's being forced to fight in Smash Bros. against his will?  He sure seemed willing in the trailer.

[mantidor]

So...

Olimar, I really want him, but can the Wii draw thousands of pikmins as a super move? Id love to see something like that.

[Zach]

Well I was thinking with olimar that he would have 3 to 5 pikmin following him (red, blue, yellow, and maybe purple and white).  It would be similar to the iceclimbers except that Olimar's moves would use the pikmin, rather than just having them copy whatever Olimar does.  What could be a really cool thing to do is make the strength of olimar's attacks dependent on how many pikmin he had left.

I like the super move idea with thousands of pikmin.

[EasyCure]

the problem with olimar being followed around by pikman, if their open for attack anyways, is that it would be much too easy to attack the pikmin before attacking olimar, which would lead to all the pikmin being ko'd and Olimar being a sittign duck. just like Iceclimbers. you get rid of Nana and Popo doesn't stand a chance.

pikmin or Olimar w/pikmin as an item would probably work better. first mr. saturn, now nintendogs as items...it would probably be easier to just make them items or maybe even a pikmin themed level.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Actually yes.  That does seem very generic to me.  Basically he is the still the basic Super Solider storyline.  He questions himself and war, but he is always forced into it, because that is what he is created to do.  Now he is even aging faster and stuff.

He is still a great character, and I like his story, but you can't say it isn't generic...because it is.  Sorry.

First, play TS on the cube (you can get it used for $15 right now) because I cannot take your argument seriously until you do.

Second, what is this "generic" super soldier you talk about? Snake isn't the "Guns blazing, slaughtering thousands of enemies and yet never gets hit" type like Schwarzenegger in "Commando".

Does the "super soldier" fall in love? Is he encouraged to sneak past his enemies without ever actually killing any of them? Does the super soldier lie to protect the feelings of others?

What sets Snake apart from Kurt Russel's "Universal Soldier" is that his emotional reactions make him believable as a real human being. Why do you think the MGS storyline is so widely praised?

You can download the MGS storyline movies in AVI format from many bittorrent sites. If nothing else, find the TS movies and watch it from beginning to end. If you still think Snake is generic after watching them, then by the same token, Link, Samus, Fox and Mario are all generic because they all fit into basic archetypes which have existed for decades: the sword-wielding hero, the lone hired gun, the hotshot pilot, and the unlikely hero out to save a princess.

Not trying to be a troll here, but I just don't think you're giving Snake the credit he deserves.

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Originally posted by: PartyBear Sorry.  I was just being frank.

I can't take much more of this punishment...

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So if Snake is so opposed to combat, does that mean he's being forced to fight in Smash Bros. against his will?  He sure seemed willing in the trailer.

He'll fight for what he knows is a good cause, and since Wario is apparently a living nuclear bomb, he'll be willing to fight to end the nuclear threat once and for all.

[EasyCure]

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So if Snake is so opposed to combat, does that mean he's being forced to fight in Smash Bros. against his will?  He sure seemed willing in the trailer.

He'll fight for what he knows is a good cause, and since Wario is apparently a living nuclear bomb, he'll be willing to fight to end the nuclear threat once and for all.

Smash_Brother with the save! ;-)

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: EasyCure
Smash_Brother with the save! ;-)

Two things came to my mind after watching that trailer:

First, "Oh, I get it! Wario IS "fat man"!" ("Fat Man" was the name of the nuclear bomb dropped on Nagasaki).

Second, I noted the irony that a nuclear "explosion", complete with mushroom cloud, was being used in the same trailer which introduced a character who was created as a protest against nuclear war.

[Frozen Atlantic]

Solid Snake owns. Anyone who disputes the ownage of said Solid Snake is obviously missing some cogs.

If Snake's a "generic" character, I humbly request you point out some non-generic, rounded, complex characters in video games we can compare him to. The dude from Madden, maybe? The gun guy from Doom? Fawful?

Gaming as a medium doesn't lend itself to character development, but the MGS series has done more to fight that than any game ever. The MGS characters are the most developed this side of Final Fantasy.

EDIT: Nuke humor from Japanese developers. Strange. And BTW, to the root of this discussion... Snake was on more than one NES game. He's plenty old school for Smash Brothers, way more than... Banjo Kazooie?

Not to rant, but you'd rather play with... Banjo Kazooie... than Solid effing Snake? Rly?

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Frozen Atlantic
Not to rant, but you'd rather play with... Banjo Kazooie... than Solid effing Snake? Rly?

I doubt we'll see BK. Though, before Rare sold out, I would have loved to see them.

I'd like for the characters from "Viva Pinata" to be in the game as item containers which need to be smashed open to acquire their contents.

Also, THANK YOU for defending Snake. I was beginning to think that I was the only MGS fan on these boards...

Unless there are some VERY surprise additions to SSBB, Snake will be the most developed character in the game, hands down (no jokes about Samus and being "developed", please ).

[mantidor]

I dont see why Olimar should be the same as the ice climbers, he can have pikmin around him all the time, if one goes flying or gets killed he pulls one automatically from the floor. The rest is just balance, making any hit into olimar not only affecting the pikmin but also himself (i.e. pikmins are not shields, just attacks)... Im sure the dev team can come up with something better.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: mantidor
I dont see why Olimar should be the same as the ice climbers, he can have pikmin around him all the time, if one goes flying or gets killed he pulls one automatically from the floor. The rest is just balance, making any hit into olimar not only affecting the pikmin but also himself (i.e. pikmins are not shields, just attacks)... Im sure the dev team can come up with something better.

I've always liked the idea of Olimar for SSB. I'm sure they could balance it so he and his Pikmin would work well as a single unit.

Also, Olimar ranks up there with developed characters. I know that he has a family, including a son and daughter, and his observations about the strange planet are very scientific in nature, indicating that, although he works for a delivery company (Futurama?!) he's a great deal smarter than the work he does.

[Spak-Spang]

I figured Olimar would have a few Pikmin around him and be limited to a number like 5-or 6.  However, I would make his Down Special attack to pull them out of the ground.

His special moves would be:

Toss a Pikmin (Red does damage and returns.  Yellow suicide run bomb blows up.  Purple jumps on the back and slows them down....ect. ect.)

Command Pikmin:  (Send Pikmin out to do stuff for you.  Most collect Items, but Yellow Pikmin run out and drop timed bombs around combatants.)

Olimar should have a single jump that is not very high, but has a jet pack that allows him to float.  This does not take the up special move away.  

I dunno what the fourth Powerup could be...but I believe someone could think of something clever.

[Crimm]

Make his block like Peach's,  Instead of holding Toad out in front of him, hold a Pikmin.

[Renny]

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Originally posted by: Frozen Atlantic
Solid Snake owns. Anyone who disputes the ownage of said Solid Snake is obviously missing some cogs.

If Snake's a "generic" character, I humbly request you point out some non-generic, rounded, complex characters in video games we can compare him to. The dude from Madden, maybe? The gun guy from Doom? Fawful?

Gaming as a medium doesn't lend itself to character development, but the MGS series has done more to fight that than any game ever. The MGS characters are the most developed this side of Final Fantasy.

It's easier to miss Snake's virtues in the Metal Gear series because the entire cast is generally pretty well fleshed out in both visual and literary design. Usually we're lucky if we get one good main character in a game with a bunch of headless chickens for NPCs. So having a main character that's built on the foundations of cliches makes him easy to underestimate.

Also, I hate Hideo "Nintendo is teh tiku tiku tiku! " Kojima for being Sony's bitch. At least make a 360 version, you fool.

[Smash_Brother]

I've heard that Hideo wants to make games for the Wii badly but Konami won't let him.

Judging by the fact that he literally BEGGED to get Snake into SSB (he begged with melee as well), I'd say that he has more of a penchant for Nintendo than he lets on.