Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl  (Read 466774 times)

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Offline Strell

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #900 on: August 09, 2006, 06:58:41 AM »
Man, I gotta wonder about people calling out SSBM on balance issues.

SSB was rife with them.  Kirby was insanely overpowered.  In fact, I started up SSBM when I got it and picked him immediately, and was very disappointed to find out that he'd been balanced down to the other characters.

From what I remember, Mario was overpowered as well.

But I'm too busy enjoying SSBM for being a billion times better to really check it out for myself.
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Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #901 on: August 09, 2006, 07:06:55 AM »
Yeah, Mario's coin uppercut was brutal in the original. Fixed that heaps in Melee. It was like trapping someone in a corner and mashing E.Honda's hundred hand slap in Street Fighter.  

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #902 on: August 09, 2006, 07:08:47 AM »
This forum has balance issues.

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Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #903 on: August 09, 2006, 07:09:12 AM »
Man, Mario, where were you earlier? ...;_;

Quote

Originally posted by: Strell
SSB was rife with them.  Kirby was insanely overpowered.


I agree with that. Kirby was overpowered in the first game, and me and my friends used to joke about it being HAL favoritism... however, I think they went overboard in trying to balance him out, as he become fairly weak in Melee.

As Mario mentioned, they had much more success with Jigglypuff, who is also a blast to play in Melee with Roll.
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Offline Pale

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #904 on: August 09, 2006, 07:18:41 AM »
Wait... is everyone ready to start another argument??

The only way to make melee better is to remove the damn c-stick 'feature'...

Talk about breaking the damn game.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #905 on: August 09, 2006, 07:23:54 AM »
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Originally posted by: Pale
The only way to make melee better is to remove the damn c-stick 'feature'...


Now that I will agree with, and I have no idea why it can only be done in Versus (you think it would have been the other way around).
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #906 on: August 09, 2006, 07:40:24 AM »
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

C-STICK IS MY FRIEND! /cry

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Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #907 on: August 09, 2006, 07:50:18 AM »
I hated the c-stick for years... My roomate (falco lover) just waits until the other 3 people are all together on the edge and literally walks through them using a C-sticked Fsmash.... LAME!

although, he was the reason I started to play w/ advanced tactics (and now I use the Cstick for aerials and wavesmashes) ... so.. i pwn him now and everyone's happy ^_^ teehee
I'll shut up now...

Offline Requiem

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #908 on: August 09, 2006, 08:11:05 AM »
"wavesmashes"?

What the hell is that?

And yes, the C-stick is THE CHEEAP

Then again, if you just use the c-stick, you'll never win. (against me that is)
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #909 on: August 09, 2006, 08:19:14 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mario YOU ARE CRAP AT THE GAME. Why should everyone else have to suffer with a slower game for some kid who can't handle the pace?


Incorrect. I'm the best player in my group because I'm the only one who generally can keep up with the speed of the game, especially making proper use of Fox's speed.

The result? No one else wants to play. I'd rather play a SSB slow than not play it at all.

Lucky for me, Sakurai seems to agree.

Quote

It's a god damned fighting videogame. It's not turn based. You can't plan an attack when people are pounding you and throwing shit at you from all directions. Strategy can bite my left nut and stay in Advance Wars.


Nonsense. It's possible to see an opening, use it to throw/maneuver an opponent to a certain location and then smash them, it's just more difficult in SSBM because the duration of those openings is much shorter. Ricocheting people off walls via throws to set them up for smashes is just one example of how strategy plays into this game.

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Wait... contradiction! You just said what I said, I wish I read that earlier to save me some typing! Oh well, thanks anyway!


Yes, because reflex means more than knowledge of your character, your opponent's character, the level and its hazards, etc. When your character's attacks can happen much faster than your opponent's character, why care what that character can do?

Quote

That isn't for Brawl to resolve, it's for YOU to resolve.

Tiers. Don't make me laugh. The competitive SSBM playing community has to be most niche group of all time, hardly an indicator that some characters can not possibly win a tournament.


And once again, the very subject which has never seen its end on SSB messageboards everywhere. I think they do matter, you do not. Will that ever change? Not this lifetime.

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1. You are the only person in the entire world who cares.


I never said I "cared". I was just pointing it out as evidence that the game has polish issues.

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2. Is this just a flat out lie? I seem to recall choosing random characters quite often.


You drop your token in the CORNER of the screen. Not on a square which says "Random". I would think that (like the level select screen) a random square would have been added if the game had been polished.

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ANYONE can win ANY match with ANY character. THIS IS A FACT! It is the ONLY fact. Tiers are entirely subjective.


I'd wager that hundreds of SSBM tournaments are held every year. Were your logic accurate, then the winning character should be as random as the stage select, not an consistent pick from the top 4-5 characters.

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Why aren't you whinging about tiers in SSB? If anything SSBM corrected the mistakes in the rushed SSB, by toning down Pikachu and making Jigglypuff a bit more powerful.


Wait...I thought you didn't believe in tiers, yet you think Pikachu needed to be toned down?

Tiers in SSB weren't based entirely around speed. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see Kirby and Ness balanced a bit (not nerfed into ineptitude) but characters were stronger due to more power, not more speed. This places the focus of the game less on reflex, unlike SSBM where the top tiers are held by the fastest characters and this, IMHO, is what kills the desire to play the game for most of my friends.

I'm hoping for online SSBB because, at the very least, it will ensure that I can always find an opponent.

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No thanks, I don't want every person with the game to have a different version of it. This isn't PC gaming where devs can release broken games and "fix" them through broken user feedback like yours.


I agree with this, but this might be what we wind up seeing anyway. Like I said, one of the later revisions made a change to Bowser so there WERE in fact different versions of SSBM out there (but it's only Bowser so it hardly mattered).

If they release the game and the option was there to balance characters after release, I think they'll do it.

Quote

In the end, you are whinging into a brick wall of FACTS. Like the fact that SSBM outsold SSB on a smaller userbase. That says more to Nintendo than anything anyone here ever could.


Again, incorrect. The Japanese comment submission forms for Sakurai say far more than anything said in English, and judging by the fact that Sakurai has already said he intends to moderate the speed and make the game easier, I think I'm not the only one who sees these as changes for the better.

And yes, the C-stick makes it possible for noobs to have a chance to win time games, which really shouldn't be how it is, considering that they'll never get better if all they do is mash the C-stick.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #910 on: August 09, 2006, 08:25:20 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem
"wavesmashes"?

What the hell is that?


It's a very advance tactic, where you do a diagonal aerial dodge almost when are just about to touch the ground. It will cause your character to quickly move across the screen if you do it right (called a Wavedash) and if you do a smash during it, it's where the above term comes from.

Things to note about it:

It wasn't intentional at first from the programmers, but they liked it and left it in.

Not all characters can do it, and some aren't able to perform wavedashes very well (sorry Bowser).

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
You drop your token in the CORNER of the screen. Not on a square which says "Random". I would think that (like the level select screen) a random square would have been added if the game had been polished.


Just no pleasing you. You think the character select screen is crap, yet you suggest they add buttons to make it look even more cluttered? No thanks, the current setup is fine.

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Wait...I thought you didn't believe in tiers, yet you think Pikachu needed to be toned down?


That was in SSB, and he did need to be toned down with the way grabs were in the first game (which were fixed in the second).
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #911 on: August 09, 2006, 08:29:52 AM »
Wavedashing Example

Luigi is probably the best wavedash character because of his natural tendency to slide.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #912 on: August 09, 2006, 08:35:40 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok Just no pleasing you. You think the character select screen is crap, yet you suggest they add buttons to make it look even more cluttered? No thanks, the current setup is fine.


FFS, people, I used this as an EXAMPLE OF WHY THE GAME WAS RUSHED. Nothing else. It doesn't hurt the game, but I know for a FACT that if HAL had more time, they would have added a random button to that screen, added the FE stage, given Ganondorf his sword, etc.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Quote

That was in SSB, and he did need to be toned down with the way grabs were in the first game (which were fixed in the second).


So, in the first game, Pikachu's fighting abilities were more powerful than those of other characters and as a result it made him a better character, making him more likely to win than some other characters.

Yeah, that's called a TIER.  
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Offline Requiem

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #913 on: August 09, 2006, 08:37:44 AM »
Hold up,

I thought you had to not be on the ground to wavedash. Luigi is wavedashing left and right, yet he does it while on the ground.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #914 on: August 09, 2006, 08:38:33 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Yeah, that's called a TIER.


All fighting games have tiers, that's not the point. The point is that the one in SSBM in no way hinders play in a serious way, as the characters are all viable outisde of a 1 vs 1 tournament setting if you want them to be.
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Offline Arbok

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #915 on: August 09, 2006, 08:39:37 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem
Hold up,

I thought you had to not be on the ground to wavedash. Luigi is wavedashing left and right, yet he does it while on the ground.


You have to do it RIGHT when you touch the ground. If you are good enough, you can perform it quickly so that it doesn't even look like you jump (which is what the player you saw was likely doing).
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #916 on: August 09, 2006, 08:46:42 AM »
Death to wavedashing.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #917 on: August 09, 2006, 08:47:14 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok All fighting games have tiers, that's not the point. The point is that the one in SSBM in no way hinders play in a serious way, as the characters are all viable outisde of a 1 vs 1 tournament setting if you want them to be.


If I play as Bowser/Ness/Link, I win roughly 75% of the games with my friends. I play as Fox and I win 95%. I didn't get better. In fact, most of what I remember from Fox was how he played in SSB.

So yeah, when I play as one character and barely win, or lose the game, then play as another character and mop the goddamn floor with the other three players, then yes, I am led to believe that there is a definite deviation in character ability.

...Which once again brings us to our previous stalemate.

As for wavedashing, it's done by jumping and using the mid-air dodge to push down into the ground in rapid succession. You know how the midair dodge can make you move in a direction you push? You basically take a tiny leap, then immediately do that into the ground.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #918 on: August 09, 2006, 08:58:56 AM »
wavedashing is sexy.
Pro666 wants wavedashing to die

.:
Pro hates sex and sexy people.



[edit: comma splice]
I'll shut up now...

Offline Requiem

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #919 on: August 09, 2006, 09:03:23 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Arbok
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem
Hold up,

I thought you had to not be on the ground to wavedash. Luigi is wavedashing left and right, yet he does it while on the ground.


You have to do it RIGHT when you touch the ground. If you are good enough, you can perform it quickly so that it doesn't even look like you jump (which is what the player you saw was likely doing).


Ok, one more question.

How can you "perform it quickly so that it doesn't even look like you jump" if you have to land to pull of the move? I can see how you could do it if, you press jump, then dodge real quick, but your saying you have to land to do it and not the other way around.
"Hey....

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But, if she slips man....if she slips, I slide!"

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #920 on: August 09, 2006, 09:03:42 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Stimutacs Addict Pro hates sex, and sexy people.


By association, you just called Daisy un-sexy.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE:Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #921 on: August 09, 2006, 09:04:45 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Requiem Ok, one more question.

How can you "perform it quickly so that it doesn't even look like you jump" if you have to land to pull of the move? I can see how you could do it if, you press jump, then dodge real quick, but your saying you have to land to do it and not the other way around.


Quote

As for wavedashing, it's done by jumping and using the mid-air dodge to push down into the ground in rapid succession. You know how the midair dodge can make you move in a direction you push? You basically take a tiny leap, then immediately do that into the ground.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #922 on: August 09, 2006, 09:07:55 AM »
Wavedashing is an unintentional, unnatural, and officially undisclosed gameplay phenomenon in SSBM that fuels Smash's unbalance/rushed arguments.

I'll group it with Snaking in Mario Karting.
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Offline Caliban

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #923 on: August 09, 2006, 09:14:01 AM »
That video was too long, so what's this wavedashing supposed to do? I don't need to know if you like it or not, just tell me what is it supposed to do during battle that makes you go on a frantic word war on PGC!

Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Super Smash Bros. Brawl
« Reply #924 on: August 09, 2006, 09:14:03 AM »
it lets you pressure opponents, avoid getting hit, generally evade/move in to punish

edit: for some characters, it's faster than running (Samus, Luigi/Mario/Doc, Ice Climbers)

its basically used for spacing (like a roll) but there is no afterlag... if you roll backwards you have to wait for the animation to end before you can attack again.. but out of a WD you can immediately grab/attack/dodge/shield/jump/shine get
I'll shut up now...