Topic: What do you want in Smash Bros. Revolution?

[Ian Sane]

"Hate to say it, but there are plenty of worthy single player experiences which will be available on the Rev. SSB:Rev should not have it's multiplayer suffer because the developers spent too much time looking into a game mode no one would play for more than 5-6 hours anyway."

Fair enough but I don't really think that was a problem with SSBM.  I certainly don't think they should make the single player WORSE for the sequel.  They can not put so much attention in it or focus more on the multiplayer but they shouldn't make it worse.

[Spak-Spang]

Ceric:  No problem.  I like discussing games and ideas.

Another Topic.

The point of single player inclusion is simple.  Even with internet play, you can't always count on people being available for multiplayer gaming, and multiplayer with BOTS just isn't good enough.

It is justifable to have a single game experience without multiplayer, because you can always play by yourself.  You don't have to plan on other peoples' schedules.  You don't have to hope others around the world are playing online.  You don't have to throw events at your house to play the game.  You can just PLAY.

This is important to a game...without it, then the game will die.  It just won't develop the fanbase it needs.  Most people view Mario Kart as a multiplayer party game...but it is the single player experience that people feel in love with in the first place.

To even suggest dropping the single player experience because multiplayer needs more work is ridiculous.  If anything I would argue the opposite.  Smash Brothers needs to ensure the single player game is enjoyable on all levels before conquering the multiplayer aspect of the game.  A great example of this is Goldeneye.  Goldeneye is great because they polished the single player experience.  The multiplayer modes were an after thought...and because the single player was so great, the multiplayer happened to be enjoyable too.  Even though Goldeneye is known for its multiplayer it was originally the single player mode that brought people to the game.

In short, both single player and multiplayer must be treated with equal respect and time to create a great experience.  Without single player mode with Smash Brothers you will limit the appeal of the game, and limit the replayability and even the entire playability of the game.  Equally, Smash Brothers is known for its multiplayer experience.  You can't ignore that appeal and it must be included.  Just like Bomberman has to include the classic multiplayer game in each new game.  

Final Topic:

I thought of another character that must be included in the game.  Balloon Fighter.

This character will literally be different than any other character because he can perminantly float if he so choses.  In fact, while floating you can develop an entirely new set of moves for him.

The draw back is...floating takes up his third jump option and can easily be countered by busting his balloons.  (He can have 3, and each one allows him to float at varying heights.)  So if he wants to stay low to the ground and float he must make one balloon.  He makes balloons relatively fast, but he won't be able to make more than one balloon while falling from a hit.

What do you think?  Another new character with completely new play mechanics for the game.

[Caterkiller]

Im with you Ian! Funny, I thought i'd never really say anything that. Joking asside, if the Single player was taken out completely I would be enraged. There should be no reason why there can't be an amazing single player and an amazing balanced multiplayer. I had such a good time unlocking trophies, characters, and stages, which required some challenges that could probably best be done in a Single player outing.

I do believe that the faster characters do have a slight advantage when it comes to 1v1. But I doubt it was because of the single player offering in SSBM. When there were interviews about SSBM befor it was released, Nintendo acknowledged that there was an unbalance between characters, particularly Kirby. And for the most part I think that they handled it very well. Because most of my friends and family seem to love the faster characters(that usualy win tournaments) I have made Mewtwo(who we all think is vastly underpowered) and Bowser my main characters to show them that they aren't as useless as they think.  

[zakkiel]

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haha what makes me insane?

That you want them to deliberately unbalance characters to reflect their "realistic" fighting strengths.

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Personally, I found the level design and items much more balanced in the original game than in Melee. The only except being the Hammer.

I never understood the problem people had with the Hammer. I never had much difficulty dealing with it, and I played DK for choice. The ray gun, however, was definitely unbalanced. Otherwise, I agree. The overall level and item design just felt better in the original. And the characters were definitely more balanced.

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SSBM wasn't as well received. The controls were loose and the game moved faster than the previous one and thus was based more on reflex than strategy and skill. A player who mashed buttons in SSB would get absolutely nothing done. A player who button mashes in SSBM can do far more damage, especially with the c-stick at their disposal.

With this I entirely agree. With the first game I would get into a zone where everything just seemed to flow, move to move, in some strange zen trance. It was the most amazing feeling I've ever had in a video game. In the second one, it took me years to recapture that feeling at all, and I still get it only rarely. It may just be that the game is too fast for me. Or maybe that I still usually stick with DK, and he got tremendously nerfed (his grab used to be the best all-around move in the game, IMO). In the original SSB, a player with even a slight edge could win 5-stock games routinely with 3 or more lives left. That almost never happens in the new one, which is a sign that skill counts for less.

What I would like to see most in next installment: learning AI. Hard to pull off, I'm sure, but it might actually make it possible to hone your skills against AI fighters. I would also like a return of the original bumper, and overall a removal or replacement of useless items.

[Ceric]

Balloon Fighters is a cool character Spak-Spang.  I think it's much more doable then NiGHTs.  I also like to add that when a Balloon Fighter gets a heavier item they should stop floating.  

The more I'm thinking about it the more I think that the multiple Samus suits should come in.  Maybe as an Event battle....

[Spak-Spang]

Ceric:  Multiple Samus Suits would be an interesting event or an interesting adventure mode element.  

I dunno about having that playable.  I could see perhaps two versions of Samus.  One hidden and unlocked and the regular Samus.  The unlocked Samus could be the Samus from Echoes, or the new Metroid Prime 3, and focus on elements and moves from the Retro games...and Regular Samus, be well Regular Samus.

If they did that.  I would love Dark Samus or whatnot to have the special move to Scan a person and take away a special move at their disposal...like in the Metroid Multiplayer games.  That element would be one of the more interesting additions.

Ceric it is also a great idea about the Balloon Fighter dealing with weight of objects.  Also what fun would it be to hit him with blunt objects and watching him bounce around with the force of the blow.  Sure you can float, but can you handle being knocked around like that?


Final Topic.

The most exciting aspect of this Smash Brothers is the new controller.  It is going to be a completely new Smash Brothers game.  Radically different, and exciting to play all over again.  Melee isn't perfect, but it is a great game.  The download service will give us the original in all its glory.  This new game needs to play remarkably different and feel fresh and new again.

[Hostile Creation]

The one thing I'm 100% against is non-Nintendo characters in Super Smash Brothers.  Sonic or NiGHTS or whatever else would be ridiculous.  The game is for Nintendo characters, I firmly believe that.  Gaming is not some unified ray of brilliant light, it's still a competitive market, and I don't want to see Sonic in my Nintendo games.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.  Which is disappointing, to me.

"Also, Marth/Roy both rule at 4 player matches because it's immensely easy for a noob Marth/Roy player to simply mash the c-stick into a pair of superior players and catch them off guard, stealing KOs in the process"

Really?  I play as Marth and I'm much better at one on one than melee.  I guess that has more to do with me having a sense of honor in SSBM.  I never edge guard until my opponent reaches 100%+ damage, I think it's cheap.  I won't do it even if they do.
And I still win.

[NWR_pap64]

Double post. My bad. Delete this.

[NWR_pap64]

Here is the thing, though. I agree with what Ian Sane and Ceric said about the single player mode of SSB. But you guys have to remember that the original SSB featured a lackluster single player campaign, to the point where many bashed the game due to the lack of single player options. But it became a multiplayer sensation, almost rivaling Mario Kart. So even with the weak single player side SSB sold so in this case it wasn't the single player that sold the game. So S_B is not that far off when he said that they need to focus on multiplayer first and foremost. After all when they showed screenshots of the game they always showed a 4 player fighting mayhem screenshot, not a single player experience.

Although I agree that completely ditching the single player is a VERY silly idea. S_B, just because the series is a multiplayer franchise it doesn't mean it shouldn't feature a good single player campaign. Not all of us can arrange 4 player battles and we WILL spend most of our time playing the single player campaign.

This is how I see it:
Original SSB: Great controls, great concept and excellent multiplayer-Terrible single player campaign
SSB Melee: A lot of extras, an expanded single player campaign-Unbalanced fighting engine-too much emphasis on speed than skill.

Ideally, the third SSB game should have a deep, balanced fighting engine and a lot of multiplayer options without having to sacrifice the single player campaign. In other words, balanced gameplay. Call it the Mario Kart DS principle. That game featured an expanded single player campaign and it still had killer multiplayer.

I agree about ditching the trophies, though. They were nice to look at the first couple of times, became worthless afterwards.

[Spak-Spang]

The Trophies were very cool because it allowed you to read up on the history of Nintendo and their franchises.

However, they have already been done.  I don't see a reason to revisit trophies.


I do believe something needs to take its place though.  Collecting trophies were alot of fun, and the fact that trophies unlocked characters, items, and levels made them even more cool.

Smash Brothers Revolution needs to have something else to collect that brings more value than the trophies did.

Here is a cool idea.  How about letting a side team develop an online collectable card game system.  

Each person starts with a random starter set and then can unlock and purchase new cards through the regular game.  Just like any other Collectable Card Game these cards can be built into a deck and play games online verse other card collectors.

The best part about this would be that this would completely play homage to Nintendo's roots.  Finally, if the card game becomes popular Nintendo could even release the series on real cards, and offer special cards for tournament winners.

This would be yet another means to create replay value for the single player and multiplayer games, because you would want to unlock all the cards to play against people.

 

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
The Trophies were very cool because it allowed you to read up on the history of Nintendo and their franchises.

However, they have already been done.  I don't see a reason to revisit trophies.


I do believe something needs to take its place though.  Collecting trophies were alot of fun, and the fact that trophies unlocked characters, items, and levels made them even more cool.

Smash Brothers Revolution needs to have something else to collect that brings more value than the trophies did.

Here is a cool idea.  How about letting a side team develop an online collectable card game system.  

Each person starts with a random starter set and then can unlock and purchase new cards through the regular game.  Just like any other Collectable Card Game these cards can be built into a deck and play games online verse other card collectors.

The best part about this would be that this would completely play homage to Nintendo's roots.  Finally, if the card game becomes popular Nintendo could even release the series on real cards, and offer special cards for tournament winners.

This would be yet another means to create replay value for the single player and multiplayer games, because you would want to unlock all the cards to play against people.

Yeah I won't deny that they were neat, but you could tell they spent more time on this rather than fine tuning the overall fighting experience. I mean, The raven's trophy DOES have detailed bump mapping...

And they do the collectible card thing and I think S_B will denounce his SSB fandom...

[Spak-Spang]

Pap64:  That isn't true.  You obviously don't understand game design.  You have artists and you have programmers.  The programmers work along side the game designers, director and producers to balance the game.  

The artists were creating the trophies after working on the ingame character models and levels.  It must have been a blast to work on all those trophies and I am positive the inclusion of the trophies and the trophy system did not hender the balance of the game in anyway.

Most likely the culprit is the release schedule.  The team was working very hard to balance the game for release, but in the end they ran out of time.  Not to mention it must be incredibly complex to get a perfect balance when dealing with a game with as many complex variables that Melee had.

But your assertion that the trophies ended up hurting game balance is just not true.

And what is wrong with the collectable card game.

It would be just another aspect to the game you can use or not.  It would be very cool...and if you had another team (not working on the actual SSB Revolution) design the game then it could quite an enjoyable deversion for those that want that experience.

Hell they could do trophies\toys\game pieces and do the whole Heroclix route and create a table top strategy game.  It would even fit with the theme of Smash Brothers being about toys fighting.

My point is don't knock ideas because you are afraid of them...or you are afraid they will distract or take away from the main game.  That is what prevents progress in games from occuring in the first place.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Pap64:  That isn't true.  You obviously don't understand game design.  You have artists and you have programmers.  The programmers work along side the game designers, director and producers to balance the game.  

The artists were creating the trophies after working on the ingame character models and levels.  It must have been a blast to work on all those trophies and I am positive the inclusion of the trophies and the trophy system did not hender the balance of the game in anyway.

Most likely the culprit is the release schedule.  The team was working very hard to balance the game for release, but in the end they ran out of time.  Not to mention it must be incredibly complex to get a perfect balance when dealing with a game with as many complex variables that Melee had.

But your assertion that the trophies ended up hurting game balance is just not true.

And what is wrong with the collectable card game.

It would be just another aspect to the game you can use or not.  It would be very cool...and if you had another team (not working on the actual SSB Revolution) design the game then it could quite an enjoyable deversion for those that want that experience.

Hell they could do trophies\toys\game pieces and do the whole Heroclix route and create a table top strategy game.  It would even fit with the theme of Smash Brothers being about toys fighting.

My point is don't knock ideas because you are afraid of them...or you are afraid they will distract or take away from the main game.  That is what prevents progress in games from occuring in the first place.

I'm not saying that the trophies ruined the overall SSB experience. What I am saying is that they spent a lot of time creating trophies, making them look nice and all while they could've used that time to fine tune the character speed and balance. In other words, they spent more time on an extra rather than the actual game itself.

I mean...Do YOU remember the last time you saw the trophies more than once or even bothered to collect them all?

I heavily agree with what you said about the time release. SSB Melee is indeed the victim of a rushed release. The character are heavily unbalanced, there are many bugs in game, too much clone characters etc. Even the trophies are odd numbered and there are some weird inclusions (they have Dixie Kong but no Diddy etc. etc.).

And what I mean about the cards is that if they do something similar to it and they put a lot of emphasis on that instead of the multiplayer matches you will have people like S_B that will be angry at the game because of it. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea and that it shouldn't be implemented. In fact, I agree with you about games having more variety and your ideas DO sound very good.

But what I am saying is that you will have hardcore players like S_B here that will probably explode a vein of two if they find out that they did nothing with the fighting engine and instead decided to focus on an extra like card collecting.

[Spak-Spang]

I think you missed my point.  The people involved with designing all those trophies would have NEVER worked on game design and balance.  It is not their job.  They are artists.  Their sole job would have been creating the levels, character designs, and such.  So after they finished that they worked on the trophies.  So there is no mix up with trophies and game balance at all.


Well the hardcore players can have their regular Smash Brothers Revolution.  They don't have to play any of the extras.  I want extras though.  I really don't care if they impliment the card game or not.  I just was giving an example of a really cool idea they could impliment to make collecting worthwhile.

[Ceric]

I like you Spak-Spang but I have to regret to inform you I must kill you now.  That is the price to be paid for mentioning card and a good game in the same sentence.  There are some exceptions, Baten Kaitos, but as soon as cards come anywhere near anything it morphs into this hideous beast of beauty and unfunness.

That being said if they made sure that the cards never touched the inner dynamic of the game that be fine.  Much like trophies never affected the game  But I do think HeroClix style would work better or even Dungeon Dice Monsters, its actually pretty good.  Also the trophies could be easily ignored and all the artist had to make those models anyway.  Putting a generic stand on them didn't take any time.

I think that the history they gave was very valuable.  Sort of like in Kingdom of Hearts they tell you the origin of each character that has one, not in detail but there first appearance. Its fun trivia to know.  *Announcer voice*"True fans want to know."  I personally would like more trivia.  Like what was the idea behind the Power Flower?

[Stimutacs Addict]

I definitely agree that young link should become Cel-Link. Maybe make him lighter (not too much so) and let his Up B attack spin him across the level like Luigi's Tornado. I'd also like to see some Iron Boots to actually change the character's weight and make him fall faster. I think that could make some interesting bouts.

I'll elaborate later... must smash now

[Avinash_Tyagi]

SSB:R needs more girl fighters (Peach, Zelda, Samus and the girl ice climber is not enough), add in Daisy,and maybe a few of the lesser known female Ninty characters...eye candy FTW.

[Spak-Spang]

Ceric:  So you don't have to kill me.  I will let you know I have never really owned a collectable card game.  I do own heroclix, but I haven't been able to play it.

The card game was just my first thought.  Though, I think more people would collect and play collectable games (be it card or table tob) if they weren't COLLECTABLE.  I hate the idea that someone with more money can build a better team or deck than someone that doesn't have the same resources.  

With the collectable game built into the game...it becomes skill and time spent playing that allows people to collect the best pieces/cards in the game and that is completely fair in my opinion.

The more I play games the more I really enjoy them, and I really would like to help design many times of games.  (As well as other media types...) however I do not believe I have the creative experience, or knowledge to create anything enjoyable right now in my life.  Perhaps later when I have more experience.

By the way my number one favorite game I never play because I suck and nobody else even desires to play the game is: GO!

Final Subject:

Avinash Tyagi:  I agree with you that we need more female players, but what other female characters does Nintendo have?

Daisy could become playable, but wouldn't she be similar to Peach?  I guess you could change her up and make her a powerhouse.

Birdo is technically a girl now...so you could have her.  (And for those saying she isn't a girl...think about this there are several of the species of Birdo so the modern Birdo is a female and the older one is not.)

[Ceric]

For the Record I like Card based real world games.  I even like the Yu-gi-ohs and Magic the Gathering digital equivalents.

I do not like games that shoe horn it in because the creators aren't creative enough to do something better.   Even if thats turn based.  It happened to PSO, Kingdom of Hearts, and I have only found two card based RPGs that were worth the Silicon they were burned on.  I just find cards make games that weren't card games first worse.

Just to clear things up.

Spak-Spang:  Heroclix is cool.  I use to play in the local tournaments, and get whooped, a few years back.  Still have my pieces if there are any your are looking for that are older I might have it.   My friends play GO.  We use to have a club here for a while.

[Spak-Spang]

Ceric:  Ha.  The only 3 Heroclix pieces I am actively collecting are KC Supes, the new Vet Supes, and all the Batman from Legacy.

The only reason I collect Heroclix is to play against my one friend that also collects.  He plays the old Fantastic 4 team...which is really quite a bad team.  

I like those types of games I just hate the collectability fashion and rare aspects of the game.  Its stupid.  I just wish I could buy smaller entire sets for like $20, and get like 20 figures.  Then it would be better.

[Ceric]

I actually have all the Old supes except for the Middle grade one.  I just couldn't get him.  It would have completed my collection. (Those were the only ones I cared about.)  Never got a Batman.  Though they owned everyone at where I played.  

[Spak-Spang]

Ha.  I have gotten several Batman.  The new rules and new powers though completely nerf stealth and stealth team abilities now.

But I think we need to change the subject back to Smash Brothers.


The original idea was to create some game that you can use the collectables in...and have the game multiplayer online.

The easiest game to create in those regards would be a simple collectible card battle game.  Not very original though.
The harder but perhaps more enjoyable would be a turnbased strategy game like Heroclix, MechWarrior and such.  

In the end, though I think this idea is very much wishful thinking because it is asking for too much in a game that needs to be quickly, at launch or within the launch Window.

[Ceric]

Agree on that.  Now as a download later...

(Takes the trophies you have and give them values to be used accordingly)

[Spak-Spang]

Ceric:  Interesting.  I wonder if they could incorporate that with Melee which would already have all the trophies unlocked?

[EasyCure]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel

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haha what makes me insane?

That you want them to deliberately unbalance characters to reflect their "realistic" fighting strengths.

fair enough, but thats not what i meant. i dont want them to turn smash into a "realistic" fighter like soul caliber or something, i simply wanted to state my opionion; that I personally liked that addition of realism, the balance they added to them. im not saying "oh pikachu can never pick up DK thats so unrealistic i dont want it in my game" i simply said that making characters more powerful and slightly slower adds a balance to the game even though it takes away slightly from the fighter. i would of liked to have seen lighter characters have powerful attacks to counter the heavywieghts instead of being whipping boys.
i said in one post that if you're good iwth a character, you're good with a character; it comes down to the skill ultimately. balancing/unbalancing characters helps those who want to become skillful to the game. unless i practice with DK or Bowser i'll never win a match because the faster characters will kick my ass. if i go back and play the original smash, i would play no different with dk as i would with yoshi. agian, thats all just my opinion so let me be insane...its my thread!!!!