Topic: NBA Thread: Brought To You By The Tampa Bay Raptors Of Toronto

[broodwars]

*sigh* Oh well. The Jazz still had a great season after 5 years in the cellar rebuilding, and they'll be back here if they keep building on this team. At least they made Golden State earn it for 3/4 of the games.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I commend the Jazz for not acting like quitters after game 1, or after each 1st quarter like the Raptors. Hayward is as good player, and has a bright future. This team will be back in the playoffs next year if Hayward sticks around.
What was up with Gobert cutting that old Warriors W logo into his hair for game 3 & 4?

My only gripe with the Warriors in that series is that Durant refused to take it to Gobert down low. Kept throwing up soft shots to get blocked in the paint. Meanwhile Curry, Dray, Iggy and McGee were all happy to take it strong inside.

[Adrock]

The Jazz lost by an average of 15 points. Sure, the last game skewed the average upward, but the Jazz still lost each of the first three games by over 10 points. The Jazz were competitive, but I never thought the Warriors were in danger of losing any of those games.

The Jazz are in that weird treadmill mode. They're a good team with good players, but they aren't touching the Warriors, Spurs, or even the Rockets (if they manage to keep playing like Better 2007 Phoenix Suns). On top of that, isn't Gordon Hayward an unrestricted free agent? If he leaves, the Jazz may be trending downward for at least a couple years.

That's one of my issues with the NBA. At any one time, there are ever only three or four teams with a reasonable chance to win the championship. We're probably getting the third straight year of Warriors vs Cavs. Next year, we're probably getting another Warriors vs Cavs series. I actively dislike the Cavs, mostly because Dan Gilbert is a fucking wiener. At some point, I'm going to get tired of seeing the Warriors win all the time.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The Jazz lost by an average of 15 points. Sure, the last game skewed the average upward, but the Jazz still lost each of the first three games by over 10 points. The Jazz were competitive, but I never thought the Warriors were in danger of losing any of those games.

The Jazz are in that weird treadmill mode. They're a good team with good players, but they aren't touching the Warriors, Spurs, or even the Rockets (if they manage to keep playing like Better 2007 Phoenix Suns). On top of that, isn't Gordon Hayward an unrestricted free agent? If he leaves, the Jazz may be trending downward for at least a couple years.

That's one of my issues with the NBA. At any one time, there are ever only three or four teams with a reasonable chance to win the championship. We're probably getting the third straight year of Warriors vs Cavs. Next year, we're probably getting another Warriors vs Cavs series. I actively dislike the Cavs, mostly because Dan Gilbert is a fucking wiener. At some point, I'm going to get tired of seeing the Warriors win all the time.

But that time hasn't come yet.
I think the bigger problem is the defeatist attitude from teams like the Raptors that think they are never gonna win against LeBron and may even think of migrating to the West because they wouldn't have to face him... :/
Did you see the comments from Derozan and Lowry?

The East needs to get it together. Celtics and Wizards are the type of attitude these other East teams need to take. Wiz thinks they are the best team in the NBA, ave The Celtics think they have the best underrated player on the court.

[nickmitch]

I wonder if people felt this way during the Jordan era.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I wonder if people felt this way during the Jordan era.

They were actually talking about this yesterday on TV and Radio saying there a reason so and so, and people like Chuck never got a ring.... Jordan.

I'm sure some felt the same way about Kobe, and then now Lebron.

But no one is stopping them from taking less money and making a move to , or recruiting some talent to challenge the King of the East.
Running the West certainly isn't the answer, as then you have to face The Dubs, The Spurs & The Rockets. At least in the East there is only one main obstacle, and if you can figure out how to minimize the impact of 1 person, you have a chance to minimize the impact of the entire squad he rolls with.... not so much the case at least with the Warriors.

Things could have been more interesting if the Blazers didn't face the Warriors first round.
Rondo didn't get injured, and the Heat made the 8th seed instead of the Pacers making the 7th.
Actually, if we could have bounced them shook ass Raptors out of the playoffs all together, eveything would have been better in the East.

[rygar]

The East has been largely terrible for twenty years now. A trifecta of poor ownership, a hard cap, and guaranteed contracts make it nearly impossible for teams to improve. With the exception of a year or two, professional basketball has been particularly dreadful in the Northeast.

There's been some bad luck too. San Antonio was allowed to get away with tanking the season when David Robinson and Sean Elliot went down injured early and they ended up stealing Tim Duncan from the three slot in the lottery. Little things like that have long term effects on parity when you have a hard cap/guaranteed contracts.

[nickmitch]

I wonder if people felt this way during the Jordan era.

They were actually talking about this yesterday on TV and Radio saying there a reason so and so, and people like Chuck never got a ring.... Jordan.

I'm sure some felt the same way about Kobe, and then now Lebron.

But no one is stopping them from taking less money and making a move to , or recruiting some talent to challenge the King of the East.
Running the West certainly isn't the answer, as then you have to face The Dubs, The Spurs & The Rockets. At least in the East there is only one main obstacle, and if you can figure out how to minimize the impact of 1 person, you have a chance to minimize the impact of the entire squad he rolls with.... not so much the case at least with the Warriors.

Things could have been more interesting if the Blazers didn't face the Warriors first round.
Rondo didn't get injured, and the Heat made the 8th seed instead of the Pacers making the 7th.
Actually, if we could have bounced them shook ass Raptors out of the playoffs all together, eveything would have been better in the East.

I dunno.  I think the other rounds of the playoffs were pretty good aside from the two dominant forces.  The first round had 1 seven game series, 4 six game series, a 5 gamer, and two sweeps.  We're looking at 2 series going at least six and 2 sweeps.

People act like the playoffs are boring, but really it's just no one cares about anyone other than the two powerhouses.  Plus, how exciting would it be if both teams swept the entire playoffs for an epic rematch?

LeBron has a few years left, but that Warriors team has even fewer.  Once it's time for Steph to get paid, they'll have to make some potentially drastic moves.

The East has been largely terrible for twenty years now. A trifecta of poor ownership, a hard cap, and guaranteed contracts make it nearly impossible for teams to improve. With the exception of a year or two, professional basketball has been particularly dreadful in the Northeast.

There's been some bad luck too. San Antonio was allowed to get away with tanking the season when David Robinson and Sean Elliot went down injured early and they ended up stealing Tim Duncan from the three slot in the lottery. Little things like that have long term effects on parity when you have a hard cap/guaranteed contracts.

Are you referring to the salary cap?  I thought it was a soft cap with the luxury tax?

[rygar]

You are correct. What I meant was a hard ceiling on salary. There is none in baseball, the luxury tax just goes 1 to 1 above a certain level (I believe).

Edit: or put another way, the softness of the cap is just the additional amount the team can go over and pay luxury tax on, but there is an eventual limit on salary. So, for example, the Knicks can't just eat Noah's wages. The contract will still factor into their overall limits on player compensation.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'm enjoying most of the playoffs, but that doesn't mean that even if we shuffled a few teams around, some of those other teams wouldn't have met the same fate as the other teams that fell already.

I'm hopeful on the Wizards v Cavs to be competitive, and I still think the Celts are a weak #1 that should've be down 3-1 if not already swept by the Wiz, and that's if they didn't get originally swept by the 8 seed Bulls if Rondo didn't get hurt.

All what if's at this point, but the Heat, the Wiz, the Raptors and the Cavs were 4 teams I expected great things out of. 1 didn't make the cut, the other never showed up, and the last 2 are hopefully about to face off.
I don't think the Cavs are invincible in the East, but they need a team that's not afraid to take it to them, really good at scoring at will, and can defend not just LeBron, but the perimeter and the paint, all at the same time with some consistency.
I think the Wiz is our only hope at a good series for the ECF.
Playoff Bron and the boys will abuse the poor Celtics. They aren't ready for all that.

[nickmitch]

Personally, I think the NBA salary caps are kind of a joke.  People always complain they're pointless, but I think they've always been too low to be effective.

[broodwars]

Personally, I think the NBA salary caps are kind of a joke.  People always complain they're pointless, but I think they've always been too low to be effective.

I think the fact that the Warriors went 72-9 last season and STILL had the money to buy Durrant pretty much makes that clear. Unfortunately, 2-3 teams just buying 90% of the talent in the league has been an issue for decades, and big market teams can just eat the luxury tax so THAT'S a joke. Makes it near-impossible for small market teams to stay competitive.

[BlackNMild2k1]

But the Warriors stayed UNDER the salary cap, and still had room to get Durant.
Warriors didn't buy up all the talent, they drafted most of it and picked up people like Curry on the cheap after injury.

The Cavs on the other hand went WAAAAY over the cap, and into the Luxury tax to get the firepower they have now. The Warriors got lucky in acquisitions and development, and then luring Durant to put them over the top... of the top....

Teams NY and LA are the ones that usually get to keep pushing salary caps and make it up in the Luxury through income of being in a larger market.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/

but long story short, GSW didn't buy all their talent.

[rygar]

The NBA CBA is extremely complicated as Nick Mitch pointed out when he corrected my "hard cap" comment. (With some simplification) the amounts of contracts are relatively predictable because salaries are slotted by years of service. Part of the reason the Warriors could sign Durant is that Curry hasn't "earned" a max contract (let alone his second) yet. Curry may end up the highest paid player in NBA history this summer given the timing of his contract renewal, the new media deal, and the new CBA that will allow GS to offer a substantially higher salary than competitiors. Their payroll won't get really complicated until it's time for Durant or his replacement to resign. There is a essentially a Stephen Curry exemption in the new CBA that allows teams to give up to 35% of the cap to a player if they meet certain criteria. It's specifically designed to incentivize superstars to sign with the team they drafted.

I haven't seen any evidence of small market teams not being able to compete on base payroll, and I don't think I'd believe it even if I saw it. The national media deal alone is worth 2.6 billion annually. Small market teams' recruiting struggles are with lower off-court revenue opportunities and lifestyle offerings. That's part of the reason teams are allowed to pay over the salary bands to resign players they have had under contract for a certain number of years.

I specifically didn't use the word "unfair" in my post because I didn't want to go down a subjective rabbit hole. Fans in small market teams have good arguments about ensuring access to the best talent and fans in large market teams have good arguments that by having salary without corresponding price controls, they are effectively subsidizing the entertainment choices of small market fans. However, it doesn't seem controversial to suggest that the CBA is a major impediment to teams in the East from improving, since the whole point of it is to keep the Atlantic division teams from being able to just buy their way out of their mistakes. And because the contracts are garaunteed, those mistakes reverberate for years.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Sounds like smarter people need to make smarter choices when it comes to contracts
I know a lot of it is getting lucky, as no one knows the future, but on the other hand, good on the players for "getting theirs" while they have the chance.

and I know Durant wanted to come to GSW for several reasons, some of which had to do with off the court brand/wealth expansion opportunities. Bay Area is a tech capital for the US/World, so many opportunities for start ups, endorsements, general connections around many different industries.
For as much flack as KD got, I'm sure 70% of the major stars in the NBA would have taken the same deal if offered, so they can all hate if they want to, but the game is business, and the business is a game. Either way you got to play to win.


Game in 4hrs. I'm excited and ready to get this **** started. LOL

[nickmitch]

Steph Curry is making less than JR Smith this season.  Not to undermine JR Smith's abilities, but that's kinda absurd.  Also, Golden State is paying the luxury tax.

I don't think smaller market teams are unable to compete because of the caps, but the draft being a lottery means they need to tank and get lucky (admittedly, odds improve with tanking) to get the pick and hope the pick works out to be competitive long-term.  But whenever people talk about getting rid of it, I think the smaller market teams would be the ones hurt most for reasons Rygar said.

[rygar]

That's interesting. I knew teams tanked in the short term, and there's the absurdity of the Sixers, but I never considered the long term effects on the conference when so many teams are incentivized to tank year-after-year.

[nickmitch]

It's not just the conference, it's the league as a whole.  In order to be competitive, you have to get lucky twice and play the long game, OR play free agency.  Without salary caps, teams could pay "max" salaries to as many players as they wanted.  So, then you get teams that are hot right now (Golden State, Cleveland), teams in big markets (LA, NYC), and teams in attractive cities (Miami) pulling all the talent.  Teams still stuck in the long game risk bankruptcy as they lose season ticket holders due to losing seasons (Philly), and teams in less-than-attractive cities (Milwaukee, Minnesota) won't ever get top talent as a lot of players would probably take pay cuts to live elsewhere or compete for titles.

[rygar]

I'm applying the principle backwards. The original point I'm focusing on is the long term futility of the Eastern Conference and how it seems a somewhat insoluble problem.

[nickmitch]

Oh, ok.

Well, LeBron has to retire at some point, so there's that.

[rygar]

Lol, I'm not sure I should want that. The Knicks aren't good enough for it to matter and the Eastern Conference is essentially a B league without LeBron.

[Adrock]

Without Kawhi Leonard and Tony Parker, the Spurs got worked.

The Celtics got the top pick in the draft because Danny Ainge is an actual wizard and managed to trade their aging core to the Nets for three unprotected first round draft picks, some players (a few of whom aren't even in the league anymore), and the right to swap picks in 2017. It may have been unethical for Ainge to take advantage of the compromised mental faculties of Billy King who one can only surmise must have sustained brain trauma prior to agreeing to that deal in 2013. It's important to note that the Celtics get another unprotected Nets pick next year, the last of that trade.

RIP Nets

[Shaymin]

The continued owning of Russians in sports never ceases to amuse me.

[BlackNMild2k1]

So, LeBron, how do you feel about the Celtics series so far...?


So how would you sum up last nights game?

[nickmitch]

LeBron has almost a 1ft advantage over IT.  Dude needs to to stay in his lane.

Seeing that play in motion is hilarious too.  IT basically just runs at him.  LeBron doesn't make the shot, so mission accomplished?  (He makes both subsequent free throws.)