Topic: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)

[Luigi Dude]

Well for Pokemon Trainer, I could see Charizard staying because he's the most popular of the Gen 1 starters and his moveset is the most unique since there's no other flying dragon starters that could easily replace it.  For Squirtle and Ivysaur though, a lot of their moves could easily be given to another first level water starter and mid evolution leaf starter.

Even though I don't mind the amount of Gen 1 representation, I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai decides to try and balance things out more with this game.  He seems to have listened to fan complaints very closely from Brawl and one of the complaints was that Gen 1 had too much representation.

I'd say to keep an eye out for when Pokemon Trailer is revealed in the future.  So far, we've had 3 Mario veterans already revealed on the Smash site and yet only 1 Pokemon veteran even though Pokemon is the second most popular franchise in Brawl.  My guess is in October around when X/Y are released, Sakurai is going to add a Pokemon veteran on the site, and if it isn't Pokemon Trainer, I think there's a good chance his Pokemon might have been changed.  Because if he's using the same Pokemon, I don't see why Sakurai wouldn't show him off since he was the only other selectable Pokemon character from the start in Brawl with Pikachu.


Seriously, Pokemon X/Y comes out worldwide on October 12th.  So far we've been getting a new Veteran around every month since E3.  Olimars update was the week of the Japanese release of Pikmin 3 and Luigi's update was less then a week before North American release of Mario & Luigi: Dream Team.  The week of Pokemon X/Y's release is around the time we'd be do for a Veteran update that so happens to be on the release of the newest Pokemon worldwide.  I just fits way too perfectly.

[Caterkiller]

You know here's the thing though, with Brawl the intention was at least 5 Pokemon reps, possibly a 6th if Plusle and Minum were really what they seemed to be. It would have been 6 Pokemon slots to Mario's 5 if Dr Mario made it back. I'd think Pokemon is the one series that could get away with it just because of how vast its icons can be.

The thing is if they add another Pokemon Trainer while keeping the previous one, and having Lucario and Mewtwo both, that would not only have 6 slots in the select screen, but 10 Pokemon characters total.  That's just way too many and Sakurai wont do it.

This is probably the main reason why Mewtwo didn't make the final Brawl roster despite having the most data of the cut characters.  Sakurai probably realized Mewtwo being in would have made it look like Pokemon had way too much representation since it would have had 5 slots and 7 characters total, and that's why he was the only unique moveset that didn't return.


Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise and so it'll always have either the most slots on the select screen, or equal to Pokemon.  Now transformation characters from Zelda or Pokemon might give them more overall characters then Mario, but on the select screen itself, no other series is going to upstage Mario.  Doesn't matter if in Brawl's original roster Pokemon was going to have more slots, because Sakurai changed his mind during development for a reason and having too much representation was probably that reason.

Well I didn't mention anything about a new Pokemon Trainer and honestly I don't see another 3 in 1 being added to the roster. And if interviews are anything to go by it was Sonic who put a hold on guys like Mewtwo returning. Completely new everything from model, moves, voice work, Subspace scene, stage, music, trophies, stickers, etc. He was put in the game after the roster was finalized and that must have took some effort and time away from guys like Mewtwo.

I know Sakurai doesn't want the roster to have too many Mario or Pokemon characters, he said as much years ago, but the fact is there was an attempt to have Pika, Jiggs, Lucario, Trainer, Mewtwo and Plusle & Minum. That's 6 slots with 8 move sets and 9 Pokemon total. I can't imagine any more than that with all those guys included in the next game except Plusle and Minum.

[pokepal148]

a second trainer to cover the other gens without taking up many character slots makes perfect sense especially if they steal a design from one of the female player characters or better yet...

[MagicCow64]

Really doubt they're going to have two trainers. It would be too confusing on the character select screen. Much more likely that they'll swap out a couple of the Gen 1 starters. Or maybe the 3DS game would have a trainer of a different gen.

Also doubt that we'll see both Lucario and Mewtwo at this point. They're tonally similar without being exact clones, and I suspect they'd put in a more differentiated solo Pokemon before they'd bloat out the pocket monster roster in such a fashion.

Pokemon aside, who else seems likely at this point? I'd say it's pretty certain we'll see:

-Miis (if they put in Wii Fit Trainer, hard to see how the ever creeping Miis don't make it in)
-Dixie (apparently almost in the last game, and now she's back in the Returns series--but would she be a Diddy clone?)
-Little Mac (based on that so-far accurate NeoGaf rumor, plus the boxing ring arena spotted in promos)

That's three I'd bet on, plus the confirmed Wii Fit Trainer, Villager, and Mega Man. There was a 10 character jump to Brawl (13 if you count the Mewtwo, Pichu, Dr. Mario loss). Can we expect 4-6 more, or should they be taken seriously about the modest roster expectation?

Edit: Also, we can safely assume that R.O.B. is gone, right? Amirite? I would also not be shocked if we saw the end of the Ice Climbers, Snake, and Wolf.

[Adrock]

I don't see why R.O.B. or the Ice Climbers would be axed. They're the sole representatives of their series. Only clone characters and Mewtwo were cut previously and in Mewtwo's case, Sakurai added two new Pokemon characters (counting Trainer as one, of course). I could see Wolf getting nixed (or becoming a costume for Fox).

As for Snake, I think he'll return, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. He was a guest character. I'd be extremely shocked if Sakurai started cutting Nintendo characters before Sonic and Snake, clones notwithstanding.

Ultimately, I'd like to see more franchise representation in the new games. I was never great at using the Ice Climbers, but I absolutely want them in the games. I hope Sakurai doesn't go too crazy with Assist Trophies.

[pokepal148]

Wolf is the only one i can see getting cut. maybe they will axe toon link and try to recreate Link as a middle ground between his two brawl representitives. I could also see lucas become an alternate costume for Ness and they may try to cut Ike for Chrom although i think Ike has become too popular for them to axe him. the kirby representatives likely won't change and Samus will likely remain the sole representative of the Metroid franchise. DK, Diddy, Yoshi and Wario likely aren't going anywhere, Pit could be joined by a member of uprisings crew (i think a magnus/gaol tag team would be quite interesting), olimar i believe is confirmed to return as well and unless nintendo truly is that desperate to kill f-zero captain falcon is all but confirmed.

on the subject of Pokemon it comes down to market research. if your popular and have movies then you are likely safe. Mewtwo is likely going in on that logic, Lucario is also likely safe given how popular he is to this day and Charizards return in the anime will likely secure the Pokemon Trainers return. pikachu is @%$#!& pikachu end of story so the only pokemon who is really in danger on that here is jigglypuff who has been in Smash for far too long for her to get the boot.

The mario series can easily shove in Bowser Jr. and has enough characters(geno) to round off their side of the roster and the Zelda franchise can easily give a character like midna/wolf link a chance to shine but the question is if we assume that they only add one new pokemon who will it be?

[nickmitch]

Like you said, it matters who the "hot" Pokemon are. I think that may make Blaziken a reasonable choice. It's getting a mega evolution and a Torchic is being distributed specifically to bring that to players.

[nickmitch]

a second trainer to cover the other gens without taking up many character slots makes perfect sense especially if they steal a design from one of the female player characters or better yet...

[Luigi Dude]

Wolf is not getting cut.  All of Wolf's A attacks and throws are completely unique while Falco still shares several A moves with Fox, and his B attacks have more differences between Fox then Falco's B moves do.  Plus one of the reason's he was put in was because Sakurai wanted more villain characters characters to be playable, so he's helping to diversify the roster, while Falco is just another hero that the game already has enough of.

Out of the Star Fox characters, Falco is the most likely to be removed since there's nothing really special or unique that he's contributing to Smash Bros, and since Star Fox has lost a lot of popularity since Brawl, Sakurai probably feels Star Fox doesn't deserve 3 characters anymore.  And since Wolf is the way more unique of the two, Falco is the one who's most likely to be cut.

[Oblivion]

Wolf is my main on Brawl, they better not cut him. <3


But seriously, Falco is more of a clone of Fox than Wolf is. Though it's almost tradition to have Falco in the game so Wolf may be the one to get cut this gen.

[Luigi Dude]

I think this deserves a good bump now, since to many this is a potential megaton.



So characters having alternate skins and costumes is now a real possibility.  So so much potential that's possible now it's crazy.

Doctor Mario is guaranteed to come back now.  Pichu could potentially come back as a skin as well.  Lucina will probably be an alternate skin for Marth.  Ike could stay as a skin for Chrom or even Roy can come back as a skin as well.  Pokemon Trainer and Villager will get their Female counterparts as well.

Wow, I could go on forever now.  Seriously, for such a simple picture it sure opens the door to many possibilities.

[Spak-Spang]

Let's not go overboard.  ALL that could happen.  Or it could simply be a fact that the trainer has 2 skins because the trainer was a male or female in the Wii Fit games. 

If that is the case this is just jumping to quite large conclusions.  Though, I hope it is true.  Skins are the perfect way to flesh out the character roster without having too many characters on screen.  You could even give skins slightly different attributes so you can have your clones, but not take up characters. 

Though, all of that is just speculation and I would think is not likely at all.

[Adrock]

Obligatory Daisy mention.

I don't want to get too excited as Wario had an alternate costume in Brawl and Sakurai left the rest of that potential on the table. If every character gets alternate costumes, which of Sonic's 41 supporting characters that are just slight variations of him should be chosen? I don't know what would be a bigger troll: including Silver, Shadow, and Amy Rose only because they're hedgehogs or including Knuckles and Tails but not also letting them glide and fly respectively since they'd just be character skins. The Internet rage would make an excellent "Youtube Reacts" video.

[Caterkiller]

Blank slate characters lend themselves towards complete alternates like Villager, Pokemon Trainer and Wii Fit Trainer. I seriously doubt we will see things like Waluigi for Luigi, Daisy for Peach or King K Rool for Bowser. What this Halloween update does tell me though is that real alternate costumes have a real chance this time outside of Wario.

Peach may get Daisy's clothing again but I am certain there will be now Shadow, Wart, or Cranky Kong skins.

[Adrock]

Waluigi for Luigi and King K. Rool for Bowser don't make sense. That'd be like Wario being an alt for Mario. Daisy is at least the same size and build as as Peach.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were legitimate alternate skins/costumes for all characters in the new games, but I'll enjoy the game ether way.

[ShyGuy]

Who would Ridley be an alternate skin of? The AC villager?

[Khushrenada]

Who would Ridley be an alternate skin of? The AC villager?

Charizard.

[Luigi Dude]

Now some characters like Game & Watch or the Ice Climbers I could see not getting any since there's not really any alternative choices for them, but I imagine the most obvious choices will get in.  These are the alternate choices I imagine are most likely at the moment.


Mario - Doctor Mario

Peach - Daisy

Bowser - Bone Bowser (he's been in quite a few games since his first appearance in NSMB DS so it's the most likely)

Donkey Kong - Funky Kong (he just Donkey Kong with some clothes on, so a pretty easy skin to do)

Yoshi - Yarn Yoshi

Link - Skyward Sword Link  (his current design is based off Twilight Princess so I could see an alternate for his Skyward Sword design)

Zelda - Skyward Sword Zelda (Assuming Zelda is still based of her Twilight Princess model, I could see her Skyward Sword design as an alternative as well)

Sheik - Skyward Sword Impa (if Zelda gets a Skyward Sword alternative, I could see Sheik getting an Skyward Sword Impa alternate as well.  Yeah it doesn't make sense for Zelda to turn into Impa but as an alternative skin it doesn't have to)

Toon Link - His blue crab pajama's from Wind Waker

Ganondorf from Twilight Princess - Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time

Pokemon Trainer - Female Pokemon Trainer

King Dedede - Masked Dedede from Super Star Ultra

Marth - Lucina

Villager - Female Villager

Snake - Naked Snake (since the port of MGS3 was on the 3DS, that's probably the most likely alternative for Snake)

Sonic - Shadow (the easiest alternative to make for Sonic so the one I'd expect)

Mega Man - Proto Man

Pac Man - Ms. Pac Man

[Spak-Spang]

The only Ganondorf I want to see is toon Ganondorf with 2 swords.  Literally the best Ganondorf Nintendo designed.

Actually I would love a Ganondorf that played like Zelda with a swapping mechanic.  So if people liked the clone you could use him, but he also could change and pull out swords for a different move set.

[Adrock]

There are enough F-Zero characters to make a heavy Captain Falcon. Black Shadow comes to mind.

Wind Waker Ganondorf was my favorite iteration of the character. I still see them using "realistic" Ganondorf though if they give him an original moveset, maybe they can base it primarily on The Wind Waker or a combination of Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess. Toon Ganondorf could be his alternate costume though that might confuse with Toon Link being a separate character.

[Wah]

ANY CHANCE OF lUCARIO OR ZOROARK?

[Adrock]

Lucario should be an alternate skin of that tree in the background of Battlefield.

[nickmitch]

I'm buying the theory that this opens up more possibilities for skins. At the very least, it's getting people talking about the idea, so maybe Sakurai would at least consider expanding on the idea.

Some suggestions are ridiculous, though.

Daisy/Peach; Dr.Mario/Mario; Sonic/Shadow; Male PKMN Trainer/Female PKMN Trainer seem as awesome as they are obvious.

I highly doubt that pallet swaps would jump franchises though. That part seems silly.

[ShyGuy]

I remember when Nintendo pallete-swapped Mario for Luigi in Super Mario Bros. What a ripoff.

[nickmitch]

The real question is when Sakurai will confirm Commander Video.