Author Topic: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)  (Read 457923 times)

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Offline Adrock

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #575 on: June 18, 2013, 05:50:34 PM »
I wasn't a fan of the auto scrolling stages, especially the vertical scrolling ones. I didn't think it was possible to make a mediocre Jungle Beat stage, but here we are.

I'm still hoping for a far more robust stage editor. No more generic pieces. I feel like that's what can really set these new Smash Bros. games apart from their predecessors. People get really creative with these things.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #576 on: June 18, 2013, 10:37:39 PM »
I'm up for more characters and stages provided they are worthwhile. I'd rather it be smaller to weed out the redundancies in characters or undesired stages than making it bigger with new stuff that won't be used or isn't that unique.
This may work for regular fighting games, but Smash Brothers is a different case. Since Smash Brothers takes characters from all throughout Nintendo's illustrious history, then there are lots and lots of characters that different fans want to see. And some of these characters are naturally going to be similar to others; Luigi is a perfect example of this. He's Mario's brother, of course the two are similar. But he's an important part of history and has many fans, so both he and Mario are included instead of just one of them. So even if some characters are similar, the game still benefits more from a large roster than a smaller one with more uniques.

Stages are a somewhat similar idea, in that they represent scenes from games, so the game also benefits from having lots of them from various games to appeal to various fans. The difference is that there's probably more leeway in making them more unique from each other, but I still don't mind when a few are similar with some key differences. As for the scrolling stages, I actually like the Ice Climbers stage, it fits the game it's from, but all the others feel a little lazy in comparison. Only a couple of stages should be like this, and only the ones that actually make sense. The "Mushroomy Kingdom" stage in Brawl for example, didn't work.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 08:24:40 PM by Mop it up »

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #577 on: June 18, 2013, 11:01:11 PM »
I'm up for more characters and stages provided they are worthwhile. I'd rather it be smaller to weed out the redundancies in characters or undesired stages than making it bigger with new stuff that won't be used or isn't that unique.
This may work for regular fighting games, but Smash Brothers is a different case. Since Smash Brothers takes characters from all throughout Nintendo's illustrious history, then there are lots and lots of characters that different fans want to see. And some of these characters are naturally going to be similar to others; Luigi is a perfect example of this. He's Mario's brother, of course the two are similar. But he's an important part of history and has many fans, so both he and Mario are included instead of just one of them.
except they aren't complete clones of eachother. in brawl luigi has been given a moveset that takes mario's moveset and modifys a bunch of things to give him a unique feel. falco has been given somewhat similar treatment as well.

Quote
So even if some characters are similar, the game still benefits more from a large roster than a smaller one would more uniques.
so there could be 100 characters all with a variation of fox's moveset and you would be happy? am i reading this correctly?
Quote
Stages are a somewhat similar idea, in that they represent scenes from games, so the game also benefits from having lots of them from various games to appeal to various fans.
i'm sorry but i don't think anybody wants to see the electroplankton stage return.
Quote
The difference is that there's probably more leeway in making them more unique from each other, but I still don't mind when a few are similar with some key differences.
to an extent this is true but nobody wants a million final destinations.
Quote
As for the scrolling stages, I actually like the Ice Climbers stage, it fits the game it's from, but all the others feel a little lazy in comparison. Only a couple of stages should be like this, and only the ones that actually make sense. The "Mushroomy Kingdom" stage in Brawl for example, didn't work.
But you just said 'the game also benefits from having lots of them from various games to appeal to various fans.'

my issue with this is that your saying that the game could be complete garbage as long as there are 180 characters and stages and you would be happy.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #578 on: June 18, 2013, 11:04:33 PM »
Quote
So even if some characters are similar, the game still benefits more from a large roster than a smaller one would more uniques.
so there could be 100 characters all with a variation of fox's moveset and you would be happy? am i reading this correctly?

Clearly, you're not.
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Offline Kytim89

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #579 on: June 18, 2013, 11:18:58 PM »
It would be nice if Megaman X was made available for the roster along side the classic Megaman.
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Offline mysticgohan

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #580 on: June 19, 2013, 12:47:25 AM »
That'd be cool, and Zero! Hell, I wish Capcom would make a Breath of Fire game, A sequel to II would be nice :) And no, III was not a direct sequel to II, I yes, II no :p


Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #581 on: June 19, 2013, 02:10:38 AM »
I would love for Smash Bros to have stickers or trophies.  I like the idea of collecting stickers and unlocking sticker paper to be able to create your own Nintendo scenes.  Its a little touch, but it could be fun.  Specially if you can share them on Miiverse.  Though stay away from having the "sticker" white border.  That ruins any effect you might have. 

Assist Trophies I could do with out.  The Pokemon balls make sense and having them in the game is pretty cool.  Having an awesome Nintendo character like Lil Mac regulated to an assist trophy isn't fun. 

I would rather drop those and add a couple of them as characters. 

I also love the idea of all classic levels being in the game.  You should at least be able to make all Brawl and Melee levels with HD graphics.  Then you can make new levels...and it is OK for new levels to revisit some ideas from previous games in new ways. 

Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.
« Reply #582 on: June 19, 2013, 02:18:51 AM »
To each his own I guess.  When Melee came out, the Adventure mode and classic modes were my most played modes.  I loved running through the modes by myself. 

I would love to see those modes come back with a vengeance.  Subspace was wrong because they had stupid enemies nobody carried about and felt uninteresting.  Adventure mode is simple.  Create simple side scrolling levels based on each game universes world.  Try to give each game universes world a different challenge with the games.  Some games could have overlapping themes.  For examples:

Mega Man, Metroid themes could be based on 2D sides scrolling shooting action.  Characters could only jump and shoot.  Limiting the moves of the characters can give variety to the levels.  Mega Man levels only give characters one jump, but Metroid levels give you 2 jumps and focused on exploration.

Mario, Donkey Kong, and Kirby levels are based on platforming, and all attacks are gone, except jumping.  Then you have to get power ups from those worlds.  Kirby levels could have a triple jump mechanic adding to make them feel different.

F-Zero and Star Fox could be racing levels with Environmental hazards to deal with.  Like the cars racing through...and you have to get on the correct path.  This could create an interesting experience.

So you can see, an Adventure mode trying to capture the themes and play styles of the original games could be fun. 

i feel like if it was set up more like the target test in melee it would be great.

See I would take a different approach.  Target Test should be in the game...because it focuses on the characters abilities and makes challenges specifically for them.  I love that game and should be in the game.

Another single player mode I would bring back is Race to the Finish, but instead of one single race.  I would craft a single race for each character, which focuses on character specific abilities like in Target Test.  racing to the finish now requires you to have a mastery of all characters for you play.  And Miiverse can post the top scores of your friends.

Finally Adventure mode is different.  Adventure mode I feel should be about the adventure and level.  So instead of crafting levels for characters.  You modify and change the rules of the characters for the level.  Which gives you the ability to craft levels that "feel" like the original characters game. 

A Zelda Level could have you searching through a dungeon finding keys and ultimately an item that is the weakness of the boss. 

A Mario level could only allow a single jump...with more Mario physics in place.  A Super Metroid Level could have you searching for items that give you your special abilities back, which will allow you to progress through the level and face a boss. 

The ideas match the level...and you design the characters to fit.  It wouldn't be hard at all.

This would give the game 3 enjoyable single player experiences.  One main experience for unlocking characters and such.  And 2 miiverse competitive experiences.  Heck you can even make race to the finish a multiplayer online experience...and have specially designed levels that can allow players to set up traps and such in the game and fight. 

It could be called Fight to the Finish. 

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #583 on: June 19, 2013, 10:26:41 PM »
Welcome to SSB:WWE U



Offline Shaymin

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #584 on: June 19, 2013, 10:43:05 PM »
THAT'S WHAT HE DO
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Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #585 on: June 20, 2013, 01:32:20 AM »
Can we merge the two topics?
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Offline Sarail

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #586 on: June 20, 2013, 01:36:12 AM »
I hope the new Smash is using the No Mercy game engine.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #587 on: June 20, 2013, 02:13:58 AM »
Can we merge the two topics?

They already did ;)

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #588 on: June 20, 2013, 10:17:52 AM »
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #589 on: June 20, 2013, 11:18:54 AM »
http://www.gamespot.com/features/smashing-the-definition-of-smash-bros-6410475/

Great article from Gamespot.

I love how much information has been constantly spilled out even though E3 is over.

So this customization thing. It sounds to me like different battle affects or slightly different animation will be included for the characters.
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Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #590 on: June 21, 2013, 02:46:44 PM »
Great interview from Kotaku.

]http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-53074439


Quote
Kotaku: I know that you can't talk too much about the characters that will be in the next game, but for previous Smash Bros. games, have there ever been characters that you wanted to include but couldn't figure out a good mechanic for them, like a way to fit them into the game?


Sakurai: Yeah, there's been a lot of instances like that. For example, there are places where we planned to have a character but then implementing that character just didn't work out. Or we wanted to implement some character but there was too much overlap with other characters from the same title, and it didn't work out. Or there's places when I wanted to implement some character, but the image for how it works in the game just never comes to fruition.


Caterkiller: known cut concepts are Balloon Fighter and Diddy and Dixie combo.


Quote
Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?


Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people.
But that's not to say that I don't appreciate very high-level competitive play, the type of very refined competitive gameplay that happens in other fighting games. Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II.


Kotaku: Recently?


Sakurai: A long, long time ago. So I don't wanna ignore that there's that type of pleasure to be had from the game. Q
Caterkiller: I can't believe even this upsets teh hardcore! Elitist A holes. I'm glad he is striving for a balance that doesn't focus on one or the other.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 02:48:31 PM by Caterkiller »
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #591 on: June 21, 2013, 09:11:37 PM »
Kotaku: I know that you can't talk too much about the characters that will be in the next game, but for previous Smash Bros. games, have there ever been characters that you wanted to include but couldn't figure out a good mechanic for them, like a way to fit them into the game?


Sakurai: Yeah, there's been a lot of instances like that. For example, there are places where we planned to have a character but then implementing that character just didn't work out. Or we wanted to implement some character but there was too much overlap with other characters from the same title, and it didn't work out. Or there's places when I wanted to implement some character, but the image for how it works in the game just never comes to fruition.

------------------------

This quote upsets me alittle and I call BS.  He complains about overlapping, but then padded his games with clones.  Star Fox getting 2 clones for the same character.

If there is overlap give us the characters, just try not to make them clones...or at least clones that work.  Or don't give us the characters, and don't give us clones either...but the addition of real clones makes the above statement BS.

Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #592 on: June 21, 2013, 09:28:11 PM »
I think the only true over lap in Brawl was Ganondorf and Toon Link. When I look at Falco, Wolf and Fox I see characters that are similar because they come from the same series and all battled the same way. Yet their animations and properties are very different. Same goes for Ness and Lucas and to a lesser extent Mario and Luigi.

Melee's clones are not Brawls Semi clones. The Brawl semi clones do have individuality.

It's funny I never see nearly as much flak for Toon Link when nearly all of his animations are the same big Link's.

Though I do have to question Sakurai's refusal to give Ganondorf his own completely unique move set. He wouldn't even be in the game if it wasn't for being similar to Falcon. At least in Melee anyway.
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Offline Arbok

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #593 on: June 21, 2013, 11:52:49 PM »
Though I do have to question Sakurai's refusal to give Ganondorf his own completely unique move set. He wouldn't even be in the game if it wasn't for being similar to Falcon. At least in Melee anyway.

As someone who mained Ganondorf for two games but doesn't really care for playing Captain Falcon, I would wager it has a lot to do with the very different playstyles between the two. Of the Melee clones, those two were the most different.

I think the game benefits from having a "heavy weight Captain Falcon".

...However, ideally that spot shouldn't be going to Ganondorf. Adding in Black Shadow from F-Zero  with the current Ganondorf moveset, and then making room for Ganondorf to be truly his own character, would be my dream solution for this.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #594 on: June 22, 2013, 09:23:03 PM »
If you are going to do a clone of a character and change the weight portions...I understand that.  Every fighting game has done that...I mean there are basically only so many moves you can have in a game. 

If you do that...I think you should keep it in the same franchise which is what Sakurai did mostly right.  However Ganondorf is the exception to prove the rule and it sucked big time. 


Offline Mop it up

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #595 on: June 25, 2013, 08:40:48 PM »
I think the game benefits from having a "heavy weight Captain Falcon".
Funnily enough, Captain Falcon is actually heavier than Ganondorf. In fact, Captain Falcon is the heaviest character in SSBMelee, even moreso than Bowser, which is just nuts. You may have been talking about his strength instead, but still, I thought it was funny.

Isn't the other popular F-Zero character Samurai Goroh? He looks like a brute, I'll bet Ganondorf's moves would suit him well.

Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #596 on: June 25, 2013, 09:51:10 PM »
I think the game benefits from having a "heavy weight Captain Falcon".
Funnily enough, Captain Falcon is actually heavier than Ganondorf. In fact, Captain Falcon is the heaviest character in SSBMelee, even moreso than Bowser, which is just nuts. You may have been talking about his strength instead, but still, I thought it was funny.

Isn't the other popular F-Zero character Samurai Goroh? He looks like a brute, I'll bet Ganondorf's moves would suit him well.

Once again people would complain about a sword missing! ;)

Here is cool article from some French site.

http://www.p-nintendo.com/articles/interviews/masahiro-sakurai-nous-parle-de-ssbb-235210

Use Google translation for your protection. When reading it, I don't see how anyone can't be excited.

Also no information blowouts like with Brawl as he said before. There just might be real secrets this time around.


Update: A link to a decent translation. Our Smash enthusiasm stinks.
[font=.HelveticaNeueUI]http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=66421646&postcount=149[/font]
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 11:31:06 AM by Caterkiller »
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Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #597 on: June 27, 2013, 05:08:15 PM »
From Sakurai via Miiverse.

"I wanted to thank you for all the posts. It’s not just me who reads them—so do other Smash Bros. staff members and other people who work with us. (Sorry for being unable to respond to your questions.)"

Its always good to know Sakurai and the team read our posts and suggestions. Too bad so many are contradictory. And despite pushing characters, the last interview I posted confirmed that the time they look into fan polls and things of that nature are long over with.

Anybody read the French interview?
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #598 on: June 27, 2013, 08:19:21 PM »
Anybody read the French interview?
Yes, sir.

1. I agree and disagree that raising the number of characters and stages isn't enough to evolve the series. More doesn't automatically mean better. However, it's not simply the addition of a character that should be considered, but how a character changes how the game is played. For example, Zelda/Sheik in Melee was especially unique. Besides the fact that she had double the moves, I remember the first time I realized that I could transform back into Zelda after getting launched as Sheik and use Naryu's Wind to get back onto a platform if Sheik was too far to do so herself. Brawl doesn't let you do that because the transformation takes too long, but a character like that still changes the game, enough to make things interesting.

Sakurai does kind of address this later in the interview when he mentions the thought process of including new characters. "What can this character do that existing ones cannot?" EXACTLY. That's why people bemoan the inclusion of "clones." They play differently, but they're variations of an existing character. New characters can't all be game-changers. However, if he's wondering how the series can evolve, it starts with picking characters that surprise people, characters that change the way people play the game. There's always some way to evolve or improve a game and a gap between releases helps a series like this from becoming stale. I still believe Super Smash Bros., like many of Nintendo's primarily multiplayer games, should only appear once per console.

When it comes to stages, I think a more robust stage editor will drastically help evolve the series. Look what people have done taking sprites of old Mario games and making their own stages. Additionally, swimming underwater could open up level design.

2. DLC always seemed like a forgone conclusion for the series. I expected it with these new games so I'm very surprised that it's not a definite at this point.

3. I don't think patching will be an issue. Basically, you don't get to play online until you update to the latest patch. That way anyone who plays online has the most up to date version and there won't be issues of someone with a patch playing against someone without.

4. I'm glad that he reiterated that he's sharing the burden of balancing the game and creating attacks with others on the team. Namco Bandai is a really great developer to be helping out in this regard.

5. I wasn't a fan of The Subspace Emissary, but Sakurai's reasoning for not including a similar story mode is weak. "Oh, people watched the cutscenes on the internet instead of playing the adventure mode." Sorry, no, that's terribly reductive. Some people watched the cutscenes instead of playing the adventure mode because the adventure mode sucked balls. Make a better adventure mode and people will want to play it. Also, all cutscenes of popular (and sometimes not so popular) games end up on the Interwebz. Is he suggesting that companies shouldn't bother with a story mode or cutscenes in their games from now on?

6. I like the Playstation All-Stars Battle Royale name drop. I actually like the game, but it's only really fun with more than two players. You need more players to make the matches more interesting whereas, to me, Smash Bros. is still enjoyable no matter how many people are player.

7. Sakurai can't talk about player created content such as a stage or character editor. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least a stage editor. A character editor seems a bit trickier. Miis are an obvious choice though I wonder if the Fighting Alloys will be replaced by Miis. I still kind of hope the Polygon Team or Wireframes return.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 02:53:51 AM by Adrock »

Offline Caterkiller

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Re: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)
« Reply #599 on: June 28, 2013, 01:33:23 AM »
Here is another interview guys! Sakurai basically says he does Mega Man more justice than the Marvel VS Capcom guys. He even discusses how his philosophy for adding characters has changed since Brawl! Read it and lets talk about it! All this info is so great!

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/26/4465706/masahiro-sakurai-discusses-mega-man-smash-bros-s-other-new-characters?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

@ Adrock - I think DLC will be coming. I am almost certain. I really like that they aren't forcing it on us, but rather try to make a complete game first and when its out they might consider it later. I couldn't be happier with his answer.

I can't believe he thinks patches might be difficult. I bet everyone on his team understands it better than him.

And yes, reading that he is sharing the burden of balancing and attack creations just fills me with joy. When I look at Bowser now, I see Namco's Ganryu so clearly. Already in his forward Smash, Neautral B, and Dash A there is less lag on Bowser even with the new animations. I trust this team so much more than the last one.
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