Topic: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.

[BlackNMild2k1]

HVD will be the last physical disc format that Consumers will need

For the foreseeable future anyway. Its probably decades away, but at some point something like the Holodecks from Star Trek TNG may become a reality. You would need a massive amount of storage space for that ****. There is some famous quote by Bill Gates from either the 70s or the 80s where he said 600kb of storage space is all any average person would ever need.

By that time we out gro the HVD disc and their multiple layer (as you said, 6GB), we will probably have moved onto some other tech like the Holocubes that Nintendo & InPhase were rumored to have been working on 5+years ago.

[BranDonk Kong]

CD's were just becoming popular? They had been popular for years. PS1 used CDs for the storage space. PS2's really only helped DVDs in Japan as the format was already rapidly expanding elsewhere. If anything, DVD helped PS2 since many Japanese launch owners admitted to buying the system mainly as a DVD player (although that may have been because the launch lineup sucked). I will admit that the PS3 helped Blu-ray Disc though since it was the cheapest BD player for some time and even now it is one the better BD players on the market.

A lot of people did buy the PlayStation because it was a CD player (it's actually a very good CD player). Also, the PS2 did help the DVD market quite significantly. A lot of people never owned a DVD until the bought a PS2 (myself included), the PS2 (well, at least before upscaling players were the standard) is also a very good DVD player (if you have a remote control). And I disagree about one thing about the PS3 - it's not one of the better BD players today, it is *the best* BD player today, and that probably won't change for quite some time. It has everything that they keep adding to BD players, and has had them for quite some time (Netflix, Hulu, BD Live, WiFi, Vudu, 3D support, etc). If you're in the market for a BluRay player, then I highly recommend the PS3, even if you hate Sony and never plan on playing any PS3 games. I think Netflix on the PS3 is actually (far) superior to the Xbox 360 and PC (and Wii, but SD on Wii Netflix actually looks fantastic) counterparts.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Why does Xbox360 & PS3 Netflix get 1080p but my PC doesn't?

can someone please explain that to me.

[Enner]

I would guess either money hats or the assumption the home theater PC is an negligible audience. Also, perhaps the thought of sitting in front of laptop or computer monitor to watch a hi-def movie is stupid and not worthy of support in Netflix's eyes.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I would guess either money hats or the assumption the home theater PC is an negligible audience. Also, perhaps the thought of sitting in front of laptop or computer monitor to watch a hi-def movie is stupid and not worthy of support in Netflix's eyes.

But the PC is only the device that made the streaming service popular in the first place...

It was because of Netflix that alot of people started actually hooking their PC's up to their LCD screens.

Or  maybe they figured it was alot less bandwidth to service the HD consoles with HD video (it was likely a condition for support) instead of the 10's of millions of current customers on the PC already. That's stuipid though, if you have an HD capable device and a HD capable internet stream, then they should send you the HD stream if it's available.

[Chozo Ghost]

Also, perhaps the thought of sitting in front of laptop or computer monitor to watch a hi-def movie is stupid and not worthy of support in Netflix's eyes.

You can hook your PC up to a HD TV as long as the TV has VGA input and/or if your PC has HDMI output.

[Morari]

Why does Xbox360 & PS3 Netflix get 1080p but my PC doesn't?

can someone please explain that to me.

Because people forget that PCs have had far superior monitor resolutions for... oh, ever? In fact, PC screens have taken a pretty big step backward as high resolution televisions have become popular, effectively merging both markets into just one.

[Ian Sane]

In regards to handhelds Sony is still as clueless as ever and Nintendo can seemingly do no wrong.

On the console side Sony seems to have forgotten a lot of stuff.  The PS3 was too expensive so they lost their top spot.  I guess they forgot about killing the Saturn with a $100 lower price or how Playstation games were always cheaper than N64 titles.  Being affordable was a big reason why they had such widespread appeal but with the PS3 they became more high end and less accessible.  Yet it seems that a lot of the things that Playstation fans liked about the brand has remained.  You can still count on the PS3 to have great third party support which is probably the biggest reason why the Playstation became anything at all.  To have such strong third party support while being in last place is very impressive.  The PS3 also seems to lack some of the hardware reliability problems their previous systems had.  But overall Sony was arrogant, much like Nintendo was with the N64, and it bit them in the ass.

But the way I see it Nintendo hasn't really learned anything either.  They're still as unpopular as ever with third party developers.  They still are ridiculously restrictive when it comes to providing options and they're still very slow to adapt to changes in technology (generation behind on optical discs, then online gaming, now HDTVs) but the 3DS demonstrates a potential improvement with that.  With the old market of core gamers they continue to remain irrelevant.  What Nintendo learned was that casuals have considerably lower standards of quality and can be won over with gimmicks.  That has made them very successful but in a way it was "cheating".  With the old market they learned nothing from their failures.  They just bypassed that all with a new market.  That's pretty smart from a business perspective but Nintendo's traditional arrogance remains.  I honestly think that their dominance in the casual market relies on a lack of competition.  Once paired off against someone who isn't so restrictive and inflexible they'll lose because they still don't get why Sony owned their ass 15 years ago.  They're relying on the ignorance of the new market they've attracted.  Once they're "exposed", they'll be in the same trouble as they were with the old market.  They also benefit a lot in the handheld market by being merely competent while all of their competition can't seem to get anything right.

[NWR_insanolord]

You acknowledge the 3DS in that second paragraph, but basically every point you make is contradicted by what Nintendo did with it.

[fiendcode]

What Nintendo learned was that casuals have considerably lower standards of quality and can be won over with gimmicks. 

I'd argue that this is not only untrue, but the "casual" market is actually far more difficult to discern and ultimately sell to than the "hardcore".  The core market is easy to predict, and easy to placate.


Casuals are no less prone to lower standards than the core are.  The sales disparity in a high quality casual game (say something from Nintendo or Popcap) versus the deluge of no-brand shovelware out there is massive.  Easily as large as the gulf between top core games (like Halo for example) and lower quality core efforts.

[Ian Sane]

  You acknowledge the 3DS in that second paragraph, but basically every point you make is contradicted by what Nintendo did with it.

It's too early.  The 3DS is brand new and we don't know how things will go.  Plus it's a handheld and I'm talking consoles.  Hell the 3DS is pretty much exacly would expect from a DS successor (aside from the specifics of the 3D, but it was fair to assume some sort of gimmick was going to be part of it).  Until I see the Wii 2, I won't know if Nintendo has learned squat.  They likely won't have, because they didn't need to to make a buck.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Nintendo wins over with "gimmicks" like analog control, rumble, motion controls, and cartridge based media for handhelds. Oh that Nintendo, what effe ups, those gimmicks did nothing for gaming now. Oh wait.

[Stogi]

I think the Wii is exactly what Nintendo did with 64 except it actually worked.

Nintendo has always been a multiplayer company. Though, arguably, some of their best most memorable games are single player, Nintendo is a family company and wants the entire family to enjoy videogames. The Wii did that perfectly. So I'm sorry, Ian. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board.

[oohhboy]

Everybody wants a Poshe 911, Austin Martin, Ferrai, airplane or some flash vehicle with some awesome feature, but you can't afford it (flying to work by helicopter) or it isn't practical(Ride lawn mower to work). So what do you do? buy something affordable and gets the job done. Your Toyotas, the odd Ford(Back when they were sane) or Holden, second hand etc.

In this market Sony is Poshe, selling that high end pleasure in vehicle form, while Nintendo is Toyota, serving the average man. While there is inherently nothing wrong with Sony working the high end of the market, the problem is that Sony requires high volumes which the high end market never produces due to price. By building a Ferrai, they corner themselves. Drop the price low enough for long enough to generate the volumes in a gamble to sell enough Sony gas to make up the loss? Tried that, didn't sell enough gas to make up for the loss wiping 10 years of profits.

Sony has always felt that they were the "High end" of the market and once upon a time they were worth the extra little premium. They lucked out with the PS1 when they built what Nintendo should have built. Riding that momentum they built the PS2 which was poorly engineered(Not that this matters to the end user, except for that laser)for the task due to the "custom" hardware, but had a DVD kicker along with launching early (Bloody terrible Fantavision) in the face of nearly no competition, allowed for an extended honeymoon period.

Ps3 comes along and things goes nuts. There is more competition than ever. They make the PS3 a rocket(Cell) sled that has the turn radius of an iceberg (Turns out there are corners) with a price high enough that if you took that loss Sony was taking, you could by a Wii. Market talk that sounds like stuff coming from "Dear Leader". They built the gaming equivalent of the concept car and sold it to the general public believing they were everyman, therefore they knew what he wanted.

In a way I can't blame them. They had 2 very good generations and the division was the boy wonder of the company. They just never understood why they were successful in the first place. They stole lightning in a bottle and never thought to see how to get it in there in the first place. I would say that Sony has no idea what it's doing and falling back on "Premium" that had worked well for them back in the heyday when they made mostly TVs.

With the NGP they will be repeating themselves for the third time. They can't survie PS4.

Nintendo could build something better hardware than they are offering and I am sure this pisses off fans knowing there they can do better. But better doesn't sell well enough, good enough sells lots more.

[Stogi]

Whiile your logic for the most part is sound, Nintendo couldn't have survived by just being good enough. They needed a main draw. So in your car analogy, they'd be the Toyota Hybrid.

[Ian Sane]

So I'm sorry, Ian. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board.

Um, yes of course.  What's the point you're trying to make?  This is largely my whole beef with them.  They won't satisfy me until they get their act together and provide a console with a decent selection of games.
 
The irony is that this is what Nintendo consistently provides with EVERY handheld and provided it for their first two consoles.  And yet it seems like the general Nintendo fanbase is totally cool with the way things have been for the last 15 years and act like I'm out of line for being upset with it.
 
For car analogies, Nintendo would be a public transportation system.  Good if your routine follows the route of the subway but borderline worthless for anything else.  And then when you complain that the subway doesn't go anywhere near your house they tell you that it doesn't make sense to live there.

[Stogi]

The point I'm trying to make is the catch 22. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board. But 3rd Parties will never jump on board...soooooo....you'll never be happy with Nintendo.

EDIT: I guess that point is pointless to make since it's so obvious you're unhappy.

[Morari]

Nintendo wins over with "gimmicks" like analog control, rumble, motion controls, and cartridge based media for handhelds. Oh that Nintendo, what effe ups, those gimmicks did nothing for gaming now. Oh wait.

Exactly. Gimmicks like rumble and motion controls.

[Ian Sane]

The point I'm trying to make is the catch 22. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board. But 3rd Parties will never jump on board...soooooo....you'll never be happy with Nintendo.

But there is no causation so it's not a catch 22.  A catch 22 would be that Nintendo will never satisfy me unless third parties jump on board but they'll never jump on board unless I'm happy with Nintendo.  There is no insurmountable obstacle prohibiting Nintendo from attracting decent third party support.  So things could change.  The cynic in me says they probably won't but there is no reason it cannot happen.

[oohhboy]

I was tempted to use the Prius, but in response I would have said that Toyota should have made a fully electric car instead. What Toyota ended up with was a car too heavy for it's size that still ran off the ICE, therefore gas. Toyota should have had mains charging from the get go and allowing full electric mode. In the end the Prius is a normal car that has massive load of batteries, not the other way around.

Motion controls would have been the electric motor and the Wii itself with the limited display power the ICE. The wow factor of motion control allowed Nintendo to reach critical mass well before it's flaws could kneecap it. The Wii is a flawed, unbalanced machine. Too little local storage, terrible on line infrastructure, under-powered to hell. To you or me, this is clearly not "Good enough", but we are, admittedly, not most people.

However this hasn't stopped most of you from buying the Wii. The hardware isn't good enough, then what is? Nintendo's imagination(Sorry, no car equivalent here) in the form of their staff that produces all those great games in such long running series that any other company would have fallen to sequitis. This alone allowed to to get past the N64, GC. Take almost any Nintendo game and after playing it you almost always could say it plays well regardless of your personal tastes.

You might not agree with the delivery method(Machine), but the results(Games) speak for themselves.

[Morari]

Car analogies are fun!

So the Wii is actually an old VW Beetle? It's underpowered and lacking in space, but it's super cheap and charming nonetheless. When people see one out on the road, they can't help but smile. It might just be because it's design is so odd that it's appealing, but it's probably because almost everyone has a good memory associated with one from their past.

[Ian Sane]

So the Wii is actually an old VW Beetle?

No, it's a New Beetle.  It's just a new body on a VW Golf (ie: Gamecube) frame.

[MaryJane]

So now that you've argued AGAIN about the whether the Wii is a gimmick or not, and its lack of 3rd party support how about what Sony has learned?

I don't mean to sound however that sounds, but do we really need to hash out old arguments with Ian? He's not going to be convinced, and he has some fair grievances, there's really nothing beyond that...

The PS3 is doing okay, and it is helped by its Blu-Ray player, which also helps Sony. All of their consoles have pushed a new, or burgeoning media format, and did so succesfully.

They tried to recreate that magic in the PSP and UMDs and failed. The PSP was/is marginally successful, but it failed on its mission to make UMDs popular, which would have in turn made the PSP popular. Now with the NGP they are moving over to digital downloads, and in an iTunes/App Store world, digital downloads is what it's all about. As Apple has already done it, Sony can't make digital downloads popular (I know mp3s and Napster were around before the iPod, but the iPod, then iTunes, and now the AppStore, made it mainstream and introduced/duped people into buying digital products they would not have with Apple's insistence) but they can ride the wave.

Also, the NGP is balls out powerful. If Sony has any sense in them, they'll encourage Kinect like hacks of the device and let people explore what can be done with quadcore mobile power. With phones and tablets becoming more powerful and going dualcore, Sony could have a marketable advantage in the competition for mobile users.

As for the 3DS, I think it will make 3D more popular, and in turn make itself more popular because of the ease of access and friendly price (compared to other 3D products).

[Morari]

So the Wii is actually an old VW Beetle?

No, it's a New Beetle.  It's just a new body on a VW Golf (ie: Gamecube) frame.

But the only people that like New Beetles are college girls and middle-aged women (old hippies that have long since sold out). Is the Wii a girl's console?

[Chozo Ghost]

They tried to recreate that magic in the PSP and UMDs and failed. The PSP was/is marginally successful, but it failed on its mission to make UMDs popular, which would have in turn made the PSP popular.

There is absolutely no point whatsoever in promoting UMD as a format when it only exists on the PSP itself. There is no UMD support for any other device on the market, and most likely there never will be. Even the most current PSP model has dropped support for it.

If Sony had been serious about the format being successful they would have included support for it in other devices (such as the PS3, for example). There are no burners for the format nor blank media consumers can purchase to burn their own UMDs. Without that sort of support there was no chance in hell it ever could have went anywhere. And no one wanted to buy movies in UMD format because for one thing they cost more, for antoher thing they were inferior to even DVDs, and finally they were only usable on the tiny little PSP and its tiny screen. What chance did UMD ever have? The only shocking thing was morons at Sony like Kutaragi seemed to think it was going to be a success despite these impossible obstacles in its way. It was like putting Steve Urkel in a gladiator match to the death against Chuck Norris and banking on Urkel being victorious. It just wasn't going to happen.

There is no insurmountable obstacle prohibiting Nintendo from attracting decent third party support.  So things could change.  The cynic in me says they probably won't but there is no reason it cannot happen.

Actually, there's something that's holding back third party support that is pretty much insurmountable: Nintendo's Kiddie image. Even if Nintendo had hardware that was on par with the competition in every respect there would still be many 3rd parties who would dismiss them as "kiddie" and refuse to support them in any way. Nintendo can't do anything about that. They can beef up the hardware and they can address other issues developers might have, but the "kiddie" image is something they can't change.

Unless Nintendo did a complete 180 from everything they've ever did from their founding and abandon Mario and all their other Core franchises and start producing blood and gore killing fest games then they are going to suffer with third party support. Can you see Nintendo doing that, though? I can't. Its not impossible, but the odds are so remote that its more likely for planet Earth to be invaded by Spaghetti monsters.

Its a ridiculous reason, but its what has hurt Nintendo with third parties for many years.