Topic: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!

[broodwars]

They could shut down PSN, stop online sales, and frustrate customers who have no idea what's going on.

Yeah, I got a nice taste of Anon's "collateral damage" when I was using PSN earlier today.  I downloaded the last of the digital-based PSP games I wanted (Tactics Ogre and SMT: Persona, if you're curious), but although I could still continue my downloads I was kicked out of PSN.  Without being logged into PSN, my PS3's security measures kicked in and wouldn't allow me to transfer my newly-installed PSP games to the actual unit.  Thankfully, about an hour later, I was able to log into PSN again and activate my games, but I don't look forward to that happening every time I download a PSN title now.

[Stogi]

You think that was them though?

They would have taken credit.

[broodwars]

You think that was them though?

They would have taken credit.

If it wasn't directly them, it was the result of their recent attacks on PSN causing the system to be unstable and have to be taken offline for a while (PSN going offline for more than less than a minute is a fairly infrequent occurrence from my experience).  I frankly don't care which, as either way I couldn't access my legally-purchased games.  Both PSN and the various Playstation sites have been randomly operational for days now.  And even if it wasn't them, this is the scenario that gamers will face downloading titles from PSN when it is taken down by Anon so I don't really see the difference.

[Chozo Ghost]

I've experienced PSN being down many times well before Anon made their announcement. Granted, I'm not a Plus member like you are, and that might be the reason you have less difficulty signing in and staying signed in with it.

[broodwars]

I've experienced PSN being down many times well before Anon made their announcement. Granted, I'm not a Plus member like you are, and that might be the reason you have less difficulty signing in and staying signed in with it.

*shrugs*

All PSN Plus really gives you access to are some free games, some discounts on games I'm usually not interested in, and the ability to do scheduled mass updates (which is really handy).  I doubt there's a priority system for so-called "paying users" (yet), especially with such a fledgling program.  I do have pretty good internet stability in general, though, and my PS3's hooked up via ethernet cable instead of using Wi-Fi, so maybe that helps.  I get minor fluctuations every once in a while where PSN will boot me out, but I can usually sign right back in.

[UncleBob]

So... Sony's overly restrictive security measures prevented you from playing legally purchased copies of games that you owned and that's someone else's fault?

[broodwars]

So... Sony's overly restrictive security measures prevented you from playing legally purchased copies of games that you owned and that's someone else's fault?

When that someone has been on the record that their goal is to destroy Sony's infrastructure, yes it is when there's reason to suspect them of being a cause behind it.  And there's nothing overly restrictive about this security measure: to make sure that you are the person who downloaded the content, you have to be signed into your PSN account when you transfer the file.  It's a reasonable security measure considering the extreme amount of piracy the PSP has seen.

[UncleBob]

If you're okay with the security measure, then you shouldn't get upset when it kicks in.

[BranDonk Kong]

Not being able to play PSP games that you purchased through PSN is Sony's fault (whether they want to blame SCEA or SCEI, whichever is more convenient), not Anon's. If you read anything, you'll see they haven't gone after the PSN service because they don't intend to harm Sony's consumers.

"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time. Sony’s official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers. "

So, once again, it's Sony's **** up, just like everything else.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.ps3hax.net/2011/04/anonymous-attacks-resume-demands-surface/+

Anon made 3 Demands of Sony before they agree to stop DDoSing their websites

1. Sony must allow for end-user modification of the PS3, as was available prior to the 3.21 firmware update.

2. Sony must end any attempts to bring legal action to alter a product they own.

3. Sony must not pursue legal action against any collected IP address.

they supposedly also said this:

Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time. Sony’s official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers.

[broodwars]

"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time. Sony’s official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers. "

The key words being "at this time" and "temporarily suspended our action", meaning they have attacked the PSN in previous days but now are not.  Personally, I think it's less that they stopped out of the "goodness of their hearts" (hah!) than that Sony hired an anti-hacking company to block their DDoS attacks that's apparently doing a pretty good job so far.  Them being douches in general certainly hasn't helped endear them to their fellow gamers "collateral damage" either.

[Chozo Ghost]

Them being douches in general certainly hasn't helped endear them to their fellow gamers

They're hackers. They're doing what they're doing to help a fellow hacker who is in trouble; it has nothing to do with gaming. Although they may also be gamers, its very possible that many of them don't even own a PS3. That said, they may not care one way or the other what their "fellow gamers" think about this. Its what their fellow hackers think about it that matters to them.

[Morari]

I think you're all giving Anonymous far too much credit. This is a group of 4chan retards that get together and try to ping servers to death. They're not hackers, they're not crackers, they're not terrorists. They're a bunch of fourteen year-old script kiddies. They'll jump at anything "for the lulz" and then quickly grow disinterested and leave. You could almost admire their goals of anarchy if they were actually genuine.

[BranDonk Kong]

Well that's why I said I wasn't too sure what this would really mean in my initial post about this - but too be fair, I also don't think they get enough credit in some cases. Yes, anon did start on 4chan, but they have managed to troll the living **** out of several companies, and their danger enough that the FBI has been tracking them for years, and basically gotten nowhere.

[UncleBob]

I think you're all giving Anonymous far too much credit. This is a group of 4chan retards that get together and try to ping servers to death. They're not hackers, they're not crackers, they're not terrorists. They're a bunch of fourteen year-old script kiddies. They'll jump at anything "for the lulz" and then quickly grow disinterested and leave. You could almost admire their goals of anarchy if they were actually genuine.

So... what about that whole thing with Gawker a few months ago...?

[broodwars]

Well this is surprising: Sony has announced a settlement in the case against hacker George Hotz.  Other than a permanent injunction being instated against Hotz, Sony does not state what the terms of the settlement were.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Does that mean the Anonymous Sony Store Boycott on April 16th is off?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383344,00.asp

[broodwars]

Does that mean the Anonymous Sony Store Boycott on April 16th is off?
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383344,00.asp

Considering Joystiq mentioned in their article on the settlement that Hotz had just recently announced that he had joined the boycott (and this settlement is technically 10 days old), probably not.

Also, I hate to break it to Anonymous, but if they show up in person at the Sony store to "boycott" Sony products the store clerks can have them legally removed quite easily due to harassing legitimate customers.  Sounds pretty pointless to me.

[Morari]

Well this is surprising: Sony has announced a settlement in the case against hacker George Hotz.  Other than a permanent injunction being instated against Hotz, Sony does not state what the terms of the settlement were.

Not surprising at all. Scaring defendants into settling is a pretty classic tactic of large corporations. Hatz doesn't have the financial backing that Sony has, and Sony doesn't want to have any precedent set for what equates to jailbreaking on the PS3.

[broodwars]

Well this is surprising: Sony has announced a settlement in the case against hacker George Hotz.  Other than a permanent injunction being instated against Hotz, Sony does not state what the terms of the settlement were.

Not surprising at all. Scaring defendants into settling is a pretty classic tactic of large corporations. Hatz doesn't have the financial backing that Sony has, and Sony doesn't want to have any precedent set for what equates to jailbreaking on the PS3.

I'm just surprised that this settlement was announced so early in the process.  Given the indignation and self-righteousness of Hotz during this case, I thought this would at least get to the trial period before announcing a settlement.  I guess Sony found something that Hotz's lawyers didn't think they could defend, or you could be right and the money just wasn't there to fight this.

Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3 (and despite what you may think, I never wanted the guy bankrupted with legal fees. I just wanted him to stop throwing out information that pirates could use to steal PS3 games.), and Sony has established that they will protect their intellectual property in the legal sense (as much good as that does).  Meanwhile, the Playstation 3 user experience is more or less unchanged.  I wonder how long it will be before we hear of a settlement with that German hacker.

[Chozo Ghost]

Also, I hate to break it to Anonymous, but if they show up in person at the Sony store to "boycott" Sony products the store clerks can have them legally removed quite easily due to harassing legitimate customers.  Sounds pretty pointless to me.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of nonviolent resistance. Sony could have them "legally removed", but it would make Sony look like a bunch of fascists and it would make the news and make Sony look really bad. Customers who were there and witnessed it would be horrified by the spectacle.

And as for the settlement, it may have been because of all the bad press Sony was getting which was hurting their profits and was bad for business. They won't say what the terms of the settlement were, but it may be because it was something embarrassing where they realized their case against him was pointless and basically just threw in the towel.

Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3

Why do you think that? There was no injunction against him. He could, and very likely will, pick up where he left off. And regardless of whether he does or not, you can be sure others will.

[broodwars]

Also, I hate to break it to Anonymous, but if they show up in person at the Sony store to "boycott" Sony products the store clerks can have them legally removed quite easily due to harassing legitimate customers.  Sounds pretty pointless to me.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of nonviolent resistance. Sony could have them "legally removed", but it would make Sony look like a bunch of fascists and it would make the news and make Sony look really bad. Customers who were there and witnessed it would likely be horrified.

Considering Anonymous' 14-year-old group mentality, I highly doubt that they would truly be "nonviolent" and wouldn't harass other customers (especially if they're wearing their stupid V for Vendetta masks and carrying anti-Sony signs).

[BlackNMild2k1]

The real question is.....

Does Sony even own the Sony Stores that are being boycotted?

[broodwars]

Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3

Why do you think that? There was no injunction against him. He could, and very likely will, pick up where he left off. And regardless of whether he does or not, you can be sure others will.

You can find the court document here, but here's the part relevant to this conversation (quote comes from a reply on Destructoid, because my computer's having issues opening the .pdf):

III. ORDER

IT IS HEREBY ORDERED AND ADJUDGED by consent of the Parties that Hotz, whether as an individual or as a principal, officer, director or employee of any business entity, and his agents, servants, employees, distributors, suppliers, representatives and all other persons or entities acting in concert or participation with Hotz who receive notice of this Judgment, shall be and hereby are permanently enjoined and restrained from:

A. Engaging in any unauthorized access to any SONY PRODUCT under the law;

B. Engaging in any unauthorized access to any SONY PRODUCT under the terms of any SCEA or SCEA AFFILIATES' license agreement or terms of use applicable to that SONY PRODUCT, whether or not Hotz has accepted such agreement or terms of use, including without limitation:
(i) reverse engineering, decompiling, or disassembling any portion of the Sony Product;
(ii) using any tools to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism in the Sony Product;
(iii) using any hardware or software to cause the Sony Product to accept or use unauthorized, illegal or pirated software or hardware; and
(iv) exploiting any Sony Product to design, develop, update or distribute unauthorized software or hardware for use with the Sony Product. If any term of such SCEA or SCEA Affiliates' license agreement or terms of use applicable to that Sony Product shall be determined by Congress or by a court of law in a final non-appealable decision in an action to which SCEA or an SCEA Affiliate is a party to be illegal and unenforceable, then such term shall not be binding on Hotz.

C. CIRCUMVENTING any of the TPMs or security in any SONY PRODUCT;

D. TRAFFICKING in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that, at the time of Hotz's trafficking, circumvents any of the TPMs or security in any SONY PRODUCT, including but not limited to the
Elliptical Curve Signature Algorithm ("ECDSA") Keys, encryption and/or decryption keys, dePKG firmware decrypter program, Signing Tools, 3.55 Firmware Jailbreak, and/or any other technologies that enable unauthorized access to and/or copying of the PS3 System and/or enable compatibility of unauthorized copies of other copyrighted works with the PS3 System.

E. Distributing or posting any SCEA or SCEA Affiliates' confidential or proprietary information relating to any SONY PRODUCT;

F. Knowingly assisting or inducing others to engage in any of the conduct set forth in A-E above solely directed at any SONY PRODUCT or that otherwise constitutes contributory liability under the law.

Sounds like pretty much a win for Sony to me.  They got pretty much what they wanted.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3

Why do you think that? There was no injunction against him. He could, and very likely will, pick up where he left off. And regardless of whether he does or not, you can be sure others will.

Reading.... it's important.

Sony Computer Entertainment America (“SCEA”) and George Hotz (“Hotz”) today announced the settlement of the lawsuit filed by SCEA against Hotz in federal court in San Francisco, California. The parties reached an agreement in principle on March 31, 2011. As part of the settlement, Hotz consented to a permanent injunction.