Topic: [GDC] Miyamoto's creative process

[S-U-P-E-R]

The best goalie on the Seattle Seahawks and my dad, Dave Sirlin, wrote a summary/cool stuff about Iwata's speech at GDC. Some very interesting stuff about how Miyamoto constructs games that I think a lot of other developers could stand to benefit from. Here:

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/3/26/gdc-2009-day-1.html

I thought Miyamoto's prototype and "kidnap" methods were really interesting.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Read the Ubisoft guy's thing, too. The way Sirlin summarizes and interprets it is really interesting.

[BlackNMild2k1]

i'm lazy. can you quote excerpts and bold the most important/interesting parts?

[S-U-P-E-R]

no

[DAaaMan64]

Thanks for the link. It was appreciated over here >.>

[BlackNMild2k1]

Miyamoto, he said, has a process that has proven to be very solid (though the timing of Miyamoto's games are very hard to predict, and that makes him lose sleep over finances sometimes). Iwata said that the first thing to know about Miyamoto is that he likes to observe people and analyze why a certain activity is fun to them. Even when you take part in an activity you find fun, you probably don't try to break down the exact reasons or the key elements that make that experience fun, but Miyamoto does.

Next, Miyamoto often takes an experience he has studied from his own personal hobbies, and makes it into a game. Gardening -> Pikmin. Having a dog -> Nintendogs. Weighing himself every day -> Wii Fit. Iwata joked that while most employees are used to signing an NDA so they don't talk about what they do at work, he now makes Miyamoto sign an NDA to not reveal his current hobbies either. (Ha!)

[...] the number of Wii Fit BALANCE BOARDS is almost as many as the number of PS3s!

We've heard many stories about how Miyamoto is a perfectionist, but Iwata said we should really understand the context of that statement. He says what Miyamoto is especially good at is perfecting the parts that should be perfected at each step, while ignoring and even preventing work on other elements that aren't important yet. He does a prototype phase for each game that has terrible graphics. We got to see the prototype for Wii Boxing, which had just colored boxes for graphics. This prototype phase has only very few team members (maybe 2 or 3) and ONLY focuses on the interaction. "Find the fun." There is a lot of trial and error as they look for this fun.

[...] Iwata makes it a point to not ask how the game is going. Miyamoto has several different games in prototype phase at any given time, and each one needs what it needs.

Another Miyamoto technique is the "kidnap." Apparently he walks surprises people in the hallways sometimes (while wearing a bandana over his face, if we are to believe the picture we were shown) and "kidnaps" people to do playtesting. These people are almost always people who don't even play games. Like maybe someone from accounting or the front desk or something. He stands behind them (Iwata was very clear on that point) and observes them play to see what they are stuck on and how they play. There are never focus group questions. Never any explanation asked of them. He just watches them play, that's it.

I think the discussion of Miyamoto would not be complete without mentioning the phrase "upending the tea table." This is term the Japanese use when someone says "no, no, no it will be nothing like this!" Apparently Miyamoto does this, but Iwata explained the context. This happens in the (unusual) case when the fun that was found in the prototype phase gets lost in the shuffle of production. It's when a game has gotten too cloudy of a vision about what it was supposed to be. Though Miyamoto does "upend the tea table" when this happens, he is supposedly nice about it and offers his explanation of exactly how the dishes can be put back on the tray, so to speak.

Anway, you get the idea. Iwata <3 Miyamoto.

Because I know too many of us are way too lazy to click the link and read all of that text. I did it for you. there is more at the link, but I think these are some of the more interesting parts. check out the rest though. interesting read.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Thanks.

I hope EAD makes a kidnapping game.

[Peachylala]

Pro, I think Nintendo could make that a fun game about that with less evil undertones (that are associated with kidnapping).

[BlackNMild2k1]

Pro, I think Nintendo could make that a fun game about that with less evil undertones (that are associated with kidnapping).

Yeah. It will be a game where you play as Bowser(and/or his kids) and have kid nap Princess Peach(storing her in the castle) and then set up an obstacle course leading up to the Castle to keep those pesky Mario Bros. from getting her back.
I think they should pack it in with the Wii2. it could be a hit.

[Deguello]

Ehhh, knowing third parties, they'll either stupidly not understand or intentionally misread this article and start kidnapping real people off the street, locking them in rooms, and having their executives stand behind them yelling that "You WILL like this game and when you do we'll let you go and put the 'toys' away."

[Ian Sane]

Miyamoto being inspired by his hobbies resulted in Pikmin, which I love, but as he gets older his hobbies are going to be, well, more dull geezer hobbies and that's kind of a downer.   I hope he looks back at his childhood some more since that inspired The Legend of Zelda.  It's a very logical way to design games though.

One thing I really see as a difference in my attitude and Miyamoto's is how he designs games very much for others.  It results in really polished games but it's a very business focused way of designing things.  I don't make games but I write songs.  When I write a song I write it for ME.  I write a song I would like to listen to and if other people like it that's great, but I don't specifically take others into account when I do that.  Same with my filmmaking hobby: I make a film I would want to see.  If I made games I would make games I would want to play.  I wouldn't think much beyond that.  And my games would probably not have the same level of financial success Miyamoto's have.  Still it's very much like a pop songwriter kind of attitude where you specifically try to craft a hit and I'm a bit bothered by that.  Is Miyamoto an artist or a businessman?

It would show why I'm not as into many of his recent games as I was into his older work.  The target audience he was aiming at was different in the past.  All this time were our game design philosophies truly in sync or was it just at the time I was part of the market he was aiming for and now I'm not?  When he made Ocarina of Time or Pikmin he was trying to make a game that I would specifically like.  When he made Wii Music he wasn't.

What does Miyamoto like?  If he made a game just for him what would it be like?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Kidnapping young women while eating mushrooms running through a tea table store.

[EasyCure]

Miyamoto being inspired by his hobbies resulted in Pikmin, which I love, but as he gets older his hobbies are going to be, well, more dull geezer hobbies and that's kind of a downer.   I hope he looks back at his childhood some more since that inspired The Legend of Zelda.  It's a very logical way to design games though.

One thing I really see as a difference in my attitude and Miyamoto's is how he designs games very much for others.  It results in really polished games but it's a very business focused way of designing things.  I don't make games but I write songs.  When I write a song I write it for ME.  I write a song I would like to listen to and if other people like it that's great, but I don't specifically take others into account when I do that.  Same with my filmmaking hobby: I make a film I would want to see.  If I made games I would make games I would want to play.  I wouldn't think much beyond that.  And my games would probably not have the same level of financial success Miyamoto's have.  Still it's very much like a pop songwriter kind of attitude where you specifically try to craft a hit and I'm a bit bothered by that.  Is Miyamoto an artist or a businessman?

It would show why I'm not as into many of his recent games as I was into his older work.  The target audience he was aiming at was different in the past.  All this time were our game design philosophies truly in sync or was it just at the time I was part of the market he was aiming for and now I'm not?  When he made Ocarina of Time or Pikmin he was trying to make a game that I would specifically like.  When he made Wii Music he wasn't.

What does Miyamoto like?  If he made a game just for him what would it be like?

I thought you were going to have a point here but i was mistaken. You're trying to claim that Miyamoto makes games for everyone as opposed to something he himself would enjoy, but the flaw in that thinking is that if that was the case he wouldn't be making games where their roots are based on his hobbies.

You seem to have this whole artist vs business man thing backwards here, claiming that because he wants to be sure everyone can enjoy it he must be selling out and if he were a true artist he'd make things for himself. Well no, that's not really the case here because if he were more business man than artists he wouldn't turn his hobbies into games, he'd be looking at what games are selling and crank out a copy cat at a low cost (like general nonspecific 3rd party support. Don't turn this into a wii-specific 3rd party debate!)

But no, Miyamoto doesn't do things like that. He looks within himself, to the things he enjoys and makes something a little more personal than just another video game. For years he's been making games that give us a tiny bit of insight to what goes on in that genius imagination of his, and NOT clones of successful mainstream titles., and you think he's too bussiness-y?

Just because an artists makes something accessible doesn't mean he's watering down his craft. Also, even the greatest works of art are never liked by EVERYONE so like any other visionary, Miyamoto will have some games that even you won't like but that doesn't mean he'll never make another new Zelda or Pikmin again.

Everythings not black or white ya know.

pre-post edit: holy crap I didn't know Pokemon was so huge that its the first suggestion for 'Pikmin' in spell check lol

[Stogi]

Your right, Wiggles.

I was going to respond to Ian's post and say something much to the effect of yours, but the argument was so convoluted I didn't feel the need to.

[EasyCure]

Your right, Wiggles.

I was going to respond to Ian's post and say something much to the effect of yours, but the argument was so convoluted I didn't feel the need to.

someone HAD to do it, no matter how convoluted the argument was, and i was due for a good SERIOUS POAST.

so thanks!

~~~wiggles~~~
(get it!?!)

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Don't forget,

Games are toys.

Games aren't art.

Miyamoto already said he's not an artist.  He's an ENTERTAINMENT DESIGNER.

[Stogi]

That maybe true, but what starts out as the production of toy can easily assimilate into the huge world that is art.

For instance, Wind Waker is like playing a beautiful drawing.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

But once one's entertainment is lost, the toy is easily assimilated into the huge trash can.

[BlackNMild2k1]

One mans trash is another mans treasure...

...does that make it art again?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

No, just a hippie ecologist.

[KDR_11k]

One thing I really see as a difference in my attitude and Miyamoto's is how he designs games very much for others.  It results in really polished games but it's a very business focused way of designing things.  I don't make games but I write songs.  When I write a song I write it for ME.  I write a song I would like to listen to and if other people like it that's great, but I don't specifically take others into account when I do that.  Same with my filmmaking hobby: I make a film I would want to see.  If I made games I would make games I would want to play.  I wouldn't think much beyond that.  And my games would probably not have the same level of financial success Miyamoto's have.  Still it's very much like a pop songwriter kind of attitude where you specifically try to craft a hit and I'm a bit bothered by that.  Is Miyamoto an artist or a businessman?

It would show why I'm not as into many of his recent games as I was into his older work.  The target audience he was aiming at was different in the past.  All this time were our game design philosophies truly in sync or was it just at the time I was part of the market he was aiming for and now I'm not?  When he made Ocarina of Time or Pikmin he was trying to make a game that I would specifically like.  When he made Wii Music he wasn't.

What does Miyamoto like?  If he made a game just for him what would it be like?

Miyamoto is a non-gamer.

[Ian Sane]

I thought you were going to have a point here but i was mistaken. You're trying to claim that Miyamoto makes games for everyone as opposed to something he himself would enjoy, but the flaw in that thinking is that if that was the case he wouldn't be making games where their roots are based on his hobbies.

I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy his games.  I'm just pointing out how I used to think that Miyamoto and I saw eye-to-eye on game development.  But as I've gotten older I no longer see that.  It was really more of coincedence and if I was a game designer I probably would be much different than him, though I would still be very inspired by his work.

He's taking into account the business when he designs a game.  Now he's obviously more brilliant than a copycat.  But you know what?  The copycat devs aren't good businessmen.  They're lazy and stupid and any financial gain they get is shortterm.  Companies like that don't survive.  Nintendo figured out long ago that by making a quality product and being the leader instead of the follower that that is the key to longterm business success in the entertainment industry.  Miyamoto realizes this as well.

I'm just saying in my own personal experience I do not specifically think in terms of demographics and target audiences and sales.  Miyamoto does and I just don't relate to that.  Maybe it's because any creative work is do is for fun and isn't my job.

[EasyCure]

i never once said he didnt enjoy his work, and the writing we're discussing never once mentioned Shiggy targeting any specific demographics for his products. The man has always made games that he wants everyone to enjoy and he's always done it in his own way.

Dont try to spin this as some non gamer argument by the way, cuz that leads back to demographics which (need i remind you) were never part of the topic on hand (until you brought it up). I already know what you're thinking too, his whole Kidnapping style of play testing is for nongamers, right?

Wrong. For all we know he's been doing this for far longer than the term non-gamer entered our collective vocabular, or "casual" had that negative stigma to it.  All he does is gauge the fun level of his works, and if someones not having fun he'll work hard to make it more fun. Sure not everyone finds the same things fun but when he can get a receptionist or accountent to enjoy what theyre playing, he's succeeded at his goal; making something ANYONE can enjoy,

If you believe he'd change his games drastically because one random secretary wasnt having fun then I'd say you finally went crazy with all your conspiracys :p Until you see Nintendo put out "Imagine: Office Clerkz" I wouldnt worry about Shiggys games if I were you.

I know how much you love pikmin. whether its cuz its a magical gem of a game or cuz its one of Nintendos newer and creatice IPs, so I just want to use that as an example of how miyamoto works. Pikmin is a RTS that anyone can enjoy. He took his "old fogey" hobby of gardening and brought to life this beautiful world where we can command little plant creatures to help us achieve a simple goal; get home. when he sat someone down to play it, and noticed when someone wasnt havin fun he tried to figure out why instead of asking them. Maybe something wasnt very intuitive, so he fixes it. He never says "what dont you like about this?" because people are different, instead he tweaks his games on HIS OWN TERMS until he finds that magical balance where anyone can enjoy the game.

Why do you think my girlfriend and her sister (her sister happens to be more of a gamer than her, loves xbox) can both enjoy this game over another RTS game like Command & Conquer? I dont think its the cute charachters or settings cuz then I'd have to question why you love it so much... Its cuz the game is fun. More fun than managing a small army and multitasking with a billion little things.

[NWR_pap64]

What Shiggy is doing is what Sean Malstrom calls "The arcade test".

An arcade test is when developers bring their game to a local arcade, bar, pub, game store etc. and study the player's reaction to the gameplay. If they notice that the player struggles to find enjoyment they have to study the current gameplay and see what they can do. If the player is enjoying himself then they are on the right track.

Arcade tests were done a lot back during the classic gaming years because it was the most effective way to see how gamers accepted a game.

The problem is that companies have stepped away from this belief, and now think that their game will be accepted because THEY think they made a game with a lot of prestige. In other words, their game is too good to be tested by common players.

Nintendo is the only one that seems to be doing this. They have been doing this since the DS launch back in 2004, and it has paid off greatly for them.

So hearing that Shiggy grabs random players to test his game doesn't sound insane, its normal and a practice long forgotten by the industry.

[KDR_11k]

It's also a part of prototyping, you need to test how the user will interact with the proposed design and asking will not always give a useful response. The designer's job is to figure out how to do what the user wants done in a way that actually works, the user only knows what he wants done, he's not really qualified to tell you the how (not that that would stop him).