Topic: Raise Your Standards

[NWR_Karl]

Aha! I made this very point on RFN almost a year ago. Good to see that Jonny's finally come over to the light side.

[Nick DiMola]

I think we can all agree that alot of Wii games have some pretty crappy graphics and that developers can obviously do better considering they were putting out games with more graphical prowess on the Cube.

Sitting idly by and giving everyone a free pass is just as bad as emphasizing that it makes or breaks the game.

[Dasmos]

Aha! I made this very point on RFN almost a year ago. Good to see that Jonny's finally come over to the light side.

Translation: Aha! I was stupid before everyone else!

Also WOW. I actually agreed with everything GP posted. That's probably a first.

[Stogi]

*Reads Posts*

ERRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

*Head Explodes*

[GoldenPhoenix]

*Reads Posts*

ERRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

*Head Explodes*

That means I accomplished my goal.

[NWR_Lindy]

Hey GP, you're the one that said analog control was "awkward and horrendous", not me.  You did the exaggerating yourself, and that was my point.  As condescending as you think I am when I talk about first-person shooters vs. casual games, I think you're just as condescending when you classify EVERY first-person shooter as generic, and not worth the time unless it's being played on a PC.

Furthermore, I don't know why you keep dragging the PC into this when I've already acknowledged that mouse controls are superior.  I never even disputed that fact.  PC's are also typically graphically superior as well (assuming you have the money to kit them properly), no disagreement there.

As for the Wii, I wasn't blaming the lack of first-person shooters on motion control.  My point was that, as good as you think the motion controls are, they aren't enough of a draw to get notable companies to develop Wii FPS games.  You blame it on marketing, I blame it on the Wii's weaker graphics capabilities.  There's no way you'll ever see, say, Crytek port Crysis to Wii, but they would port it to 360 and PS3.  I'm not dogging the Wii by saying that, I'm just stating a fact.  The graphics capabilities of a platform will always trump the control mechanism of a platform when talking about the first-person shooter genre.  Just the nature of the beast.

I'm not hung up on visuals.  All I ask is that games on a console have graphics that exploit the power of that console, not a bunch of games that are ports of last-generation graphics engines.  Like I said, if the DS was populated mostly with games that look like GBA titles, I'd be just as irritated with that platform.

My gaming tastes are FAR from limited.  I have my favorite genres, but Viva Pinata is really cool, as is Rock Band, as is Wario Ware: Smooth Moves, as is Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 for Wii, as is Karaoke Revolution.  Regardless of my "reputation" on this board, I like all kinds of games and will pretty much give anything a try.  But if I think something is half-assed, I'll call it out.  I don't care if Shigeru Miyamoto made it or not.

No hard feelings GP 

[Morari]

As condescending as you think I am when I talk about first-person shooters vs. casual games, I think you're just as condescending when you classify EVERY first-person shooter as generic, and not worth the time unless it's being played on a PC.

That's not condescending, it's just the plain and simple truth. First person shooters without keyboard and mouse are quite simply dumbeddown console-kidded crap. Now that's casual gaming. It's too bad, as the Wii could at least do something interesting (not better!) with the genre, thus making it tolerable on consoles.

[NWR_Lindy]

I'll guess I'll just have to keep it real and play Unreal Tournament III on PS3 with a keyboard and mouse.

[DAaaMan64]

HUH I thought he PS3 only came with USB ports on the $9001 Dollar MODEL.

SWEET


OVER NINE-THOUSAND?!?

[Morari]

I'll guess I'll just have to keep it real and play Unreal Tournament III on PS3 with a keyboard and mouse.

Except that UT3 in and of itself pales in comparison to its predecessors anyway, probably directly because it was developed with consoles in mind. Choosing to play any game on a console over the PC version is most definitely not "keeping it real" no matter how you look at it.

Besides, once you're at a desk with a keyboard and mouse, why not spend that $500 on PC anyway? It'd do everything the PS3 already does but better, and then some. Oh, and in a few years, instead of buying a whole new and entirely overpriced console, you just upgrade a few parts. Economics!

[NWR_insanolord]

Why is it that I see Microsoft and Sony fanboys as just misguided fools and shrug them off but I see PC fanboys as pure evil and they make me want to grab something and throw it across the room?

[DAaaMan64]

I'll guess I'll just have to keep it real and play Unreal Tournament III on PS3 with a keyboard and mouse.

Except that UT3 in and of itself pales in comparison to its predecessors anyway, probably directly because it was developed with consoles in mind. Choosing to play any game on a console over the PC version is most definitely not "keeping it real" no matter how you look at it.

Besides, once you're at a desk with a keyboard and mouse, why not spend that $500 on PC anyway? It'd do everything the PS3 already does but better, and then some. Oh, and in a few years, instead of buying a whole new and entirely overpriced console, you just upgrade a few parts. Economics!

LOL economics?  Since when can you build a gaming machine that'll be bleeding edge for a "couple of years"?  Much less a reasonable viewing space and all the accessories. Economics nothin'

[Stogi]

The graphics capabilities of a platform will always trump the control mechanism of a platform when talking about the first-person shooter genre.  Just the nature of the beast.

I'd like to see this theory play out next gen........

[Deguello]

I'd also like to see it applied to PC vs. Consoles.  Crysis looks better than anything the Xbox 360 or PS3 can hope to achieve in their respective ten year plans.  Yet somehow people bought the inferior Halo 3 more.

The same can also be said of Half-Life vs. GoldenEye and Deus Ex vs. Halo.

[Arbok]

Crysis looks better than anything the Xbox 360 or PS3 can hope to achieve in their respective ten year plans.  Yet somehow people bought the inferior Halo 3 more.

Brand loyalty and the functionality of more readily being able to invite people over to play the game with you, in person, are a pretty powerful force in this case. For me, PC gaming loses out over consoles for the simple fact that multiplayer games are so important to me, and I don't mean online and LAN isn't an economically practical option for most.

[Morari]

Why is it that I see Microsoft and Sony fanboys as just misguided fools and shrug them off but I see PC fanboys as pure evil and they make me want to grab something and throw it across the room?

My guess is because the truth hurts.

LOL economics?  Since when can you build a gaming machine that'll be bleeding edge for a "couple of years"?  Much less a reasonable viewing space and all the accessories. Economics nothin'

Long term economics. I'd hardly call the 360/PS3 bleeding edge, even upon release. Besides, last time I checked, all of those fancy accessories and HD televisions don't come with consoles either. Any well built and thought-out system can easily last a gamer for a few years, only requiring minor upgrades afterward. After several years, when upgrades are no longer possible (and you're already on your PS4 or PS5), then you can start the cycle over again and have an extra, if not slightly more modest, setup for LAN gaming. People who disregard PCs as an overall superior platform simply do not know enough to be taken seriously in a conversation. Stop buying overpriced junk from Best Buy and order some OEM parts!

[Mario]

The graphics capabilities of a platform will always trump the control mechanism of a platform when talking about the first-person shooter genre.  Just the nature of the beast.

That's just plain LOL

[NWR_insanolord]

Of course the PC is better at everything, that's why when I go through my Wii games only 8 of the 25 seem like they could be done as well or better on the PC. Of course I'm sure Morari would argue that Super Mario Galaxy would be 12 times better when played with a keyboard and mouse.

[Morari]

The Wii has interesting exclusives, that's why I bought it. I wouldn't get a 360 because all ten of its decent games are available on the PC where they do much better. I haven't actually played Super Mario Galaxy, so I can't say anything on that front. The thing is though, that you can always plug in a gamepad to your PC. Hell, Wiimote support isn't even that hard to get up and running if you have Bluetooth. I know I've played plenty of platformers with the traditional PC setup and it's always worked out fine.

[NWR_insanolord]

Plugging a gamepad into a PC is like using a Classic Controller on the Wii, it can be an option but the game has to work with the standard controller.

The PC is only the ultimate gaming machine that you make it out to be if all you're interested in is FPSs, strategy games, sims, and MMOs. There's a lot more to gaming than that, and that's why the PC is just another option alongside consoles and handhelds.

Also, I don't know if this discussion is why, but I've been playing PC games a lot over the past few days. I played Civilization IV for eleven straight hours yesterday.

[Morari]

I've never had a problem using my USB gamepad when need be. A good gamepad will simply map out the normal controls to the specified buttons, usually without any software in between. Unfortunately, a lot of cheaper gamepads require you to use their proprietary setup program. I'm pretty sure that the Xbox 360 controller works on the PC in a fairly straightforward manner, actually.

Roleplaying games tend to work a lot better on the PC as well. Point and click adventures are obviously better suited to a mouse. There really isn't any specific genre that the PC can't do at least equally as well. I know quite a few people that have personal preferences for using gamepads when it comes to third person games (such as action/adventure and platformers) as well as racing titles. I've never had an issue with this, though can see where some are coming from in terms of racing games at least. The Wiimote is basically a mouse that operates within a 3D space anyway. Outside of input devices, very little actually separates one console from another. The sheer level of customization alone makes the PC the best overall platform--whether you're changing around the controls, the hardware, or the game data itself.

I haven't played any strategy game since Rome: Total War. Unfortunately, the genre has largely degraded into Blizzard-style RTS, where hogging resources matter more than actual strategy. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy WarCraft, but it's definitely not what I'd want in a real strategy game. It'd be nice to see Civilization Revolution come out onto the Wii, as the IR pointer probably would work well enough.

[NWR_insanolord]

Yeah, you can easily use a gamepad or connect a Wii remote via Bluetooth (something I do quite a bit in order to use my Wii Guitar Hero guitar in Frets on Fire), my point is that nobody is going to release a game for PC if it needs a gamepad to work because it can't be guaranteed that everyone will have one.

Whether or not something could be made to work on a PC isn't the entire issue, someone actually has to make the type of game for the PC. A PC is only good for RPGs if all you want is western-style RPGs. Japanese RPGs could easily be done on PCs, they just aren't done that often.

Also, I think we switched sides on this one, because there's no way I'd buy Civilization on a console. It's just so unbelievably better on PCs.

[Morari]

Well, I don't play JRPGs, as they are not really RPGs.

I would generally agree that strategy games are one of those genres that simply need a mouse, but I'm quite curious to see how something designed with the Wii in mind would work. Likewise, I'd love to try the Wiimote/nunchuck in a well thought out FPS. It'll never be as good, but it could be an interesting and enjoyable experience nonetheless. "Different" doesn't have to mean "better", but it tends to mean "unplayable" with conventional gamepads. That makes the Wii remote an exciting prospect, as it could be "different" and stand on its own as something that is simply fun. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to get used to the extent that it should.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I've distanced myself from PC gaming cuz I prefer couch gaming to desktop gaming.

[NWR_insanolord]

My problem with Civilization Revolution isn't that it wouldn't control well, that could be fixed by the Wii. My problem is that what I've read indicates that they've dumbed the game down quite a bit. I can put up with that on the DS because it gives me Civilization in a portable form, but when I'm at home Civ IV is clearly the better option.

I actually prefer Wii controls for first person shooters, they may not be as precise as mouse and keyboard but they make up for it by being more fun. Pointing the remote at your target and pulling a trigger > moving a mouse and clicking. Medal of Honor Heroes got the controls right, now somebody has to make a game that's fun to use them with.