Topic: Raise Your Standards

[Jonnyboy117]

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/blogArt.cfm?artid=16432

  Want to know why so many Nintendo fans are looking to The Conduit as their system's messiah?  High Voltage may not have the greatest track record, but they're actually putting some effort into making their game take advantage of the current technology.  We should expect this from every full-price Wii game, regardless of genre or art style.    

A few years ago, Chris Rock had a great comedy routine about guys who always want special attention for things they're supposed to do anyway.  To paraphrase:    

'I ain't never been to jail!"    

"What, you want a cookie?"    

I think this scenario perfectly captures the current state of Wii graphics.  We all know that GameCube was a powerful system for its time, and we know that Wii is significantly more powerful than that.  Yet the vast majority of Wii games, including Nintendo's own projects and those of talented third-party studios, barely meet the standards of mid-level GameCube visuals.  I'm not talking about budget-priced shovelware.  Marquee titles like Battalion Wars, Rock Band, Animal Crossing, de Blob, Boom Blox, and Mario Kart could all be mistaken for last-generation titles, based on their graphics.    

In fact, some of the Wii games most highly praised for their visuals are literally last-generation games, including Twilight Princess, Resident Evil 4, and Okami.  Now we have Capcom announcing a remake of Dead Rising, an Xbox 360 game, and they are flaunting the fact that it runs on the same engine as RE4: Wii Edition.  I guess we're supposed to be relieved that Dead Rising might look as good as a GameCube game when it's brought over to Wii.    

At E3 last week, I complained to Steven Rodriguez that the water in Wii Sports Resort's power-ski game looks closer to Wave Race 64 than Wave Race: Blue Storm.  His response was: "So what?  It's Wii Sports."  And I agree in principle that graphics are not especially important in this kind of casual game.  However, I also don't think it's asking too much that a new, $50 Wii game meet the minimum visual standard of Blue Storm, a game that is nearly seven years old and was built on predecessor technology.  Casual or not, if I'm going to spend a large portion of Resort looking at the water, that water shouldn't be distractingly ugly.  It certainly was in the E3 demo.    

Here's my message to Nintendo fans, media, and especially game developers: raise your standards.  I'm not saying that Wii games should look like PlayStation 3 games.  I'm just saying that Wii games should look like Wii games.  If you're the "vote with your dollars" type, here are a few suggestions to send a message: Zack & Wiki, Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Super Mario Galaxy, and Geometry Wars Galaxies.  (If you can think of another game with better-than-GameCube graphics, let us know in Talkback.)

[Arbok]

(If you can think of another game with better-than-GameCube graphics, let us know in Talkback.)

Brawl... and its exclusion makes me cry...

[Ian Sane]

I am voting with my dollars but it doesn't do any good.  The problem is for every one of me there are 20 people probably on this forum alone that will give Nintendo the opposite message.  If my personal voting dollar was significant the Wii probably would be in clearance racks by now.  It would not have been able to sell as well as it did on this library.  I bought Twilight Princess on the Cube.  My vote was that I wouldn't buy a new console for a game I could get on hardware I already owned.  But that didn't do anything.

The problem is Nintendo has the most influence on their console and they don't care about graphics anymore.  That started on the Cube.  SSB Melee's Mario model looked better than Mario's model in Super Mario Sunshine and that game came out later.  And then Nintendo reused that lousy model again and again.  It was laziness and it's not really surprising that that laziness has continued on to the Wii.  Third parties follow Nintendo's lead.  You think we would get all these last-gen ports if Nintendo didn't do it first with Zelda?

We can try all we want but we're overwhelmed by non-gamers that don't care.  That's the Wii in a nutshell.  It seems with the blue ocean strategy what Nintendo found was an audience that doesn't require them to try.  Hopefully that was an accident but the blue ocean market doesn't care about quality in graphics or gameplay and everyone is taking advantage of that.

It's still a good message for everyone.

[GoldenPhoenix]

That Mario Galaxy is so freaken lazy graphically. Dang that Nintendo.

Seriously comparing models of a 2D fighting game to a 3D Platformer with massive environment is silly at best.

[NWR_insanolord]

I am voting with my dollars but it doesn't do any good.  The problem is for every one of me there are 20 people probably on this forum alone that will give Nintendo the opposite message.

I'm doing my best to counteract Ian, I've bought Alien Syndrome and Heatseeker, both of which are PSP ports, and I haven't bought Zack & Wiki. I like to support games that don't slouch in the graphics department, but that's not what decides whether or not I'll buy a game. If I think a game is fun, which I do think the two games I mentioned are, I'm going to buy it, and conversely it doesn't matter if the game could pass for a 360 game, if I don't think it's fun I'm not going to buy it.

[wandering]

SSB Melee's Mario model looked better than Mario's model in Super Mario Sunshine and that game came out later.

Not sure I agree. I don't think realistic clothing textures suit Mario.

[Jonnyboy117]

I think the impact of Brawl's graphics was lessened for me because it looks so much like Melee, even though Melee was one of the best looking GameCube titles (despite being near-launch).

[Arbok]

I think the impact of Brawl's graphics was lessened for me because it looks so much like Melee, even though Melee was one of the best looking GameCube titles (despite being near-launch).

To each their own... the beauty of the Fire Emblem and Star Fox stages still makes smile from ear to ear on occasion.

[ShyGuy]

Where is the line drawn between Graphics-whore and Graphically-I-have-morals-and-standards?

[DAaaMan64]

SSB Melee's Mario model looked better than Mario's model in Super Mario Sunshine and that game came out later.

Not sure I agree. I don't think realistic clothing textures suit Mario.

BAA DUMM CCCSSSHHH

[Djunknown]

Want to know why so many Nintendo fans are looking to The Conduit as their system's messiah?

I've seen Conduit in action, and have to say that their art style is unintentionally funny. It reminds me of a b-movie alien flick. But I think that's a good thing, FPS'es have been taking themselves too seriously, Team Fortress 2 being an exception. Everything else High Voltage is doing on the money: Customizable controls, multiplayer with voice chat sans tea bagging/ curb stomping.

You think we would get all these last-gen ports if Nintendo didn't do it first with Zelda?

To be fair, Twilight Princesses depth is greater than most games made for the Wii. The nearly never ending cave at the bottom of Lake Hylia is an example.

Where is the line drawn between Graphics-whore and Graphically-I-have-morals-and-standards?

Graphics Whore:

Looks at Conduit and says: Needs moar ____ mapping.

Morals and Standards:

Looks at Far Cry:Vengeance and says: %#@ this, I'll play the PC Version.

[ShyGuy]

So, NWR is going to give Conduit's graphics a score of five and ANY LESSER GRAPHICS will get less than a five? Let's start putting our money where our mouth is.

[TheFleece]

While I didn't buy the Wii because I thought it would have the best looking games I do agree with Jonny. Too many Wii games appear lackluster and I am a vote with yr dollah cat so I often feel myself to be a stranded gamer in that I don't like FPS's or rhythm based games, but I did play Metroid and I loved the crap out of Twilight Princess! I also feel that Brawl is graphically superior than Melee having played Melee since I bought my Wii. I own Zack and Wiki, while I don't feel it's the best looking game, it is nicer than most games and it's fun.
I bought the Wii because I believed that it would bring me a new way to enjoy games and I'm not a graphics whore to be honest, but the lack of detail in many titles I see is just sad. I've often thought of trying to boycott games and developers, but it would be very difficult to change how things are run (I'd love to hear some ideas). As it stands the regular gamer has no control or influence over the industry, it's run on  trends and right now being graphically amazing isn't in.

[D_Average]

Preach on Johnny!!

[Stogi]

Gameplay > Graphics; for sure.

Gameplay + Graphics; even better.

Gameplay < Graphics; oh dear god no.

I already "vote with my dollars" and I always vote with gameplay first.

[Jonnyboy117]

Of course, gameplay is the most important thing.  But graphics are still important.  You do not have to sacrifice one for the other, nor do I think you can get away with ignoring one in favor of the other.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The main problem I have with rating Wii's graphics is that I've seen more than one person unintentionally compare them to 360 or PS3 visuals. That is not right, if anything they should be compared with what the GC outputted. For example I know Johnny criticized the environments in Deadly Creatures, while I found the visuals to be quite good, even on part with most GC visuals. Even though the game looks good gameplay wise and even graphically, I can't help but think some aspects of the visuals would merit a lower score regardless of how "well" it plays.

[Plugabugz]

They should be better than the best of what i've seen on the gamecube. That is not an unrealistic expectation.

Mario Kart Wii still looks great in places, i thought.

[D_Average]

I would also add true 16:9 modes as a Wii standard to this list.  I learned from 1up Retronauts last week that Wario Land Shake It will NOT have a true 16:9 mode.  In fact, if you want to play the game in 16:9 you'll have to put up with a cheesy border akin to Mario Party.

Nintendo's negligence here is an insult to people who think.

[Deguello]

Third parties follow Nintendo's lead.

Oh they do, Ian?  So how come Nintendo made all those jawesome, earth-shattering N64 and GC games and most third parties just kinda sat around and masturbated?  Third parties should be THIRD PARTIES and not computerized, deflated Nintendo groupies.  They should be giving more effort and they'll eventually be forced to when Nintendo's effort-full titles make more money than their phone-ins.  Just like the DS.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Wario Land Fail-It

[RABicle]

Endless Ocean

[Infernal Monkey]

SSB Melee's Mario model looked better than Mario's model in Super Mario Sunshine and that game came out later.  And then Nintendo reused that lousy model again and again.  It was laziness and it's not really surprising that that laziness has continued on to the Wii. 

Wow a model in a fighting game with tiny levels looked better than one in a 3D adventure game.

Are you retarded.

[Ian Sane]

Wow a model in a fighting game with tiny levels looked better than one in a 3D adventure game.

Are you retarded.

Mario's Sunshine model looked like it something out of a Dreamcast launch game.  Somehow other Cube games that were in full 3D managed to have decent looking character models but Mario Sunshine and all the spin-offs that reused the same model didn't.  If Rare, Retro, Capcom, Silicon Knights, and even EAD themselves with Twilight Princess (and I'd argue Pikmin as well) were able to make full 3D games with decent looking character models then Super Mario Sunshine had no excuse.  The hardware was clearly capable of better and Nintendo didn't try.  Hell Super Mario Sunshine had FMV that looked WORSE than the in-game graphics.

Every other Mario platformer (except portable ones I guess) managed to wow me with its graphics at the time of release except Mario Sunshine.  It looked like Sonic Adventure.

It was actually the first time that it looked like Nintendo really didn't put a full effort into the presentation.  I know everyone is all graphics over gameplay but in the past Nintendo's game always pushed the envelope in visuals.  They occasionally made something intentionally simplistic for style like Earthbound or Paper Mario or in F-Zero X's case compromised the graphics in favour of gameplay but they didn't make "good enough" graphics.  Mario Sunshine was just "good enough".

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Mario Sunshine favored technology over visuals.  Fluid effects and surfaces were the star of the show, not Mario.  Just about everything that was related to liquid, whether a body of water or an enemy or surface that could get "wet" or making contact with Mario during platforming, those objects had to pull more than double-duty in terms of resources (collision detection, some physics, visual change, etc).  Therefore the backgrounds were only roughly as visually competent as Mario.  Nintendo tried commendably, they were just misguided.

This is a huge difference compared to a meaningless background Corneria building in Melee, and the huge expanses of land in Twilight Princess that did next to NOTHING beyond displaying Link's shadow.  Pikmin's characters were mostly round bulbish models lacking texture and had the advantage of model repetition to keep your eyes busy.  Rare had nice models cuz the games were empty eye candy with not much to do inside.  Silicon Knights' models weren't that great and the environments were tiny as well.  I doubt Mario Galaxy has nearly the same amount of "platformable" surface area than Mario Sunshine.  And to Sunshine's credit, it had considerably more versatility in platform improvisation and stage cohesion (falling or flying to a far part of the stage usually meant the whole stage was there, whereas in Galaxy shooting away from a planetoid was like going through a door in Metroid Prime, allowing the console to "nevermind it" and focus resources in the immediate area).

FMV was horrible cuz Nintendo had no practice and no disc space.  Two N64s taped together.

You see an artistic deficiency and somehow forget that there's hardware underneath that has a significant role in driving these things, so balance and economy in design becomes central, and not "deurrrr Nintendo didn't try hard enough."

The only games that came close to reusing Sunshine's Mario was Double Dash and MK Wii.  Where the hell are the other ones you're talking about?  Mario Teaches Trolling?

Try harder, E3tard.