Author Topic: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games  (Read 31884 times)

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2007, 12:11:37 PM »
I'd ask how Pikmin is a casual game.  The time limit of the first game forces the player makes the game incredibly intense and forces the player to potentially restart and replay days where nothing is accomplished.  That can be frustrating for non-dedicated players.  The game also has some challenge and stuff to it.  To me it seems too much like every other game to consider it different than most of Nintendo's best games.  What arguement is there that it's casual focused?  Seems to complicated for non-gamers to ever want to go near it.

Offline Mashiro

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2007, 12:14:45 PM »
So what REALLY defines a casual game then?

That's the answer I am looking for.  

Offline UERD

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #77 on: August 15, 2007, 12:49:45 PM »
I always saw casual games as games that people who had never shown interest in video games before could become interested in, easily pick up, and become good at.

One non-gamer walks past a video game kiosk in a department store, sees someone playing Wii Sports on the demo unit, decides to try it out himself, and purchases a Wii. The controls are simple or intuitive enough that he can easily pick up the game and start playing, even though he's never touched a sports game or any videogame before. After a while, he becomes relatively decent at the game.

The other non-gamer goes to his friend's house where he's playing Starcraft on his computer. He watches Zerglings running around on screen, shrugs, and walks away. Games like Starcraft and Halo are games where previous experience is anywhere from important to necessary in order to appreciate the game and to get better at it. Granted, even hardcore gamers have to start somewhere, but I'd wager that most people who pick up 'hardcore' games like FPSes or RTSes have played other games in the genre before. Of course, there are so-called nongamers who play lots of different types of casual games, so that isn't very helpful, but it's a start as a generalization.
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Offline stevey

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #78 on: August 15, 2007, 01:57:57 PM »
Pikmin isn't a casual game, it an out of the box read: when Miyamoto eat from his garden/stash game.  
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Offline nickmitch

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #79 on: August 15, 2007, 02:13:32 PM »
Pikmin had "pick up and play" qualities, but that didn't make it "casual." Now, Pikmin 2 had more "pick up and play" to it without the time limit. However, I don't feel that those games were totally casual. Those are just my two cents.
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Offline Mario

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2007, 04:49:51 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
So what REALLY defines a casual game then?

That's the answer I am looking for.

A game you play casually. Which could be any game depending on the person.

Offline Strell

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2007, 04:53:32 PM »
According to every "casual game" definition I've heard, Madden fits the bill.

And yet no one who has played games for a while would call it a casual game.

Conclusion: The whole attempt to call out what is and what isn't is retarded.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2007, 07:26:59 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Strell
According to every "casual game" definition I've heard, Madden fits the bill.

And yet no one who has played games for a while would call it a casual game.

Conclusion: The whole attempt to call out what is and what isn't is retarded.


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Offline SixthAngel

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2007, 07:49:42 PM »
I've said it before but the whole non-gamer concept is mainly a marketing one with a few exceptions like sports, fit and brain.  The new controller allows more people access to games and Nintendo is throwing the nongamer marketing onto everything because they always thought that anyone could have access to all of their games, even ones like Metroid.  Frankly I think they are right, if rando's give their games a try they won't have much trouble after 5 minutes max.

Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2007, 07:49:51 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Quote

Pikmin is about as hardcore as games get.


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Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2007, 09:42:33 PM »
If Pikmin is a casual game everything Nintendo makes, except Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, and maybe Metroid are casual games.

I'm not saying that because it's absolutely not, but because if it is casual, then Mario also is and so are most Zeldas. They are all relatively simple to learn the basic controls, and they are all things you can play for short bursts. So do these games get grandfathered in because they've been enjoyed by the hardcore for so long?

There is no real definition for a "casual" game because of the simple fact that different people see them different ways. Most people will agree that Bejeweled is a casual game and Fire Emblem is hardcore, but it's in between where people differ. My feelings are that I don't care either way, as long as I enjoy the experience.
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2007, 12:07:39 AM »
Hey more people than not got the same answer I did, awesome =)

Nice posts guys and gals.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2007, 12:44:13 AM »
I thought about this some more and I think I've came up with the best way to put what I'm trying to say, and here it is: There are no casual games, there are only casual gamers.
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2007, 04:51:27 AM »
The truth is "casual game" is just used to describe a set of games that aren't universally accepted by the "core" (read: No Homers Club) gamer.  Over time it turns out there are more Homers than there are people in the No Homers Club, so the rules change and some of the people in the club change with them.  Others declare that the club has lost its way and take off.

My point is...if we were going to try and characterize what makes a casual game, we'd find it's a moving target.  Several years ago, a casual game was casual because it had tons of plot and CG movies and it was too easy.  Today, a casual game is casual because it DOESN'T have tons of plot and CG movies and it doesn't last for at least 30 hours.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2007, 05:40:52 AM »
I don't really use the term "casual game" to mean the same thing as "non-game".  Casual game is like a mainstream focused game that the more elitist gamers don't care about.  Stuff like Madden or licenced games or hip-hop stuff.  Trendy mainstream stuff with no staying power.  EA games.  They're clearly games they're just sucky, dull, uninteresting titles that people who like games play, but aren't of interest to people who really take games seriously, perhaps too much so.  It's like how there are tons of movies that a popular with the mainstream but are crapped on by film buffs and everyone, even those that saw the film at the time, forgets about it six months later.  Madden is casual because no one cares about one game once the other comes out.  The casual games are the disposable ones for the audience that doesn't really care about gaming beyond the present.

Non-games are different.  Those are games for people that don't like games and it's a new concept introduced by Nintendo.  Nintendo uses the term "casual gamers" to describe non-gamers but I think they're a different group.  You've got passionate game lover, Madden/current trend gamer and guy who doesn't really think he likes games but is tricked into it by non-games.  Different levels of interest like small, medium and large and the games that fit these are those that are designed for those audiences.  Pikmin isn't disposable and it isn't for non-gamers so it's not a casual game or non-game.

Though I might rank hardcore into two groups with speed run type people being at a different level than people who just really like games and make a major effort to play the good ones and avoid the bad ones.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2007, 07:13:10 AM »
Is it just me or is non-game a really ignorant term? I'm sorry but even if the game is Suduku it still is a GAME, maybe a different type from the norm but it still is a game.  
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2007, 07:22:06 AM »
I think in the term "non-game" I think "game" is implied to mean "traditional-style video game". As in, Brain Age isn't a video game in the traditional sense. When you think of it that way it's a somewhat accurate term.  
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2007, 07:36:16 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: insanolord
I think in the term "non-game" I think "game" is implied to mean "traditional-style video game". As in, Brain Age isn't a video game in the traditional sense. When you think of it that way it's a somewhat accurate term.


But where do you draw the line? What is a traditional game really? There are so many different genres out there. Regardless I doubt I'm the only one that likes games like Brain Age, Wii Sports, Nintendogs, and other so called "non-games".
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #93 on: August 16, 2007, 08:21:24 AM »
Perhaps casual gaming is gaming without commitments? Without commitments to long play sessions, without commitments to harsh learning curves, or any learning curves at all, without commitments to intense and vitriolic competition, without commitments to learning complex rules...?
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Offline Strell

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2007, 08:57:19 AM »
This is why all these distinctions and rules and labels begin to break down for me.  The moment I can find an exploit, I'm going to rip the definition asunder, because it's an inch away from being a slippery slope.

The purest and most basic group you can put these in is "games."  Period.  To sit there and try and drum up a set of arbitrary criteria to further segment them into what we are "supposed" to play versus not is hugely pompous.

I've heard it be the "hardcore versus casual" thing for a long time, but when I try to get further clarification, it falls apart.  You can take any of these so-called designations and completely dismantle them.  For example, what constitutes hardcore?  

"A harsh learning curve."  Really.  I'd call Ikaruga hardcore and it takes all of 30 seconds to learn the controls.  Hell, so does Pacman, Pong, Tempest, Super Mario Bros,  Tetris...

"Competition."  Again, Madden, by all accounts, is not hardcore.  It's just that 8 million people buy it year after year.  That kind of mainstream penetration almost guarantees it is not "hardcore."  And there are oodles of people playing it off and online in competition.  Beyond that, the only games that might also fit here are fighters and shooters.  You can't compete in RPGs that directly or easily.

"Has to be difficult."  I think the last honest bastion of truly difficult games are bullet hell shooters, and those are appreciated by a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the entire population, who also happen to be entirely sadomasochistic.   Most games that are hard these days rely on cheating AI - racers with invisible rubber bands, fighters where characters do more damage/move faster/perform moves that are impossible to perform based on the last input, shooters were you just get swarmed by enemies, etc etc.  Twitch gaming might be the only "true" games that are difficult because they are based entirely on skill, where other games force players to compete against odds on top of the current situation.

"Takes a long time to play."  So does Monopoly.  Next.

"Has to have awesome graphics/physics engine/some other piece of graphics whore/eye candy/engine junky bullsh*t."  Zork, mofos.  Nethack.  Again, all the early twitch games.  Certain RPGs.

"Has to have a definite end."  NONE of the early twitch games did.

"Has to feel like you've accomplished something."  It's a game, people.  You aren't building a porch.

And so on, so on.

I think the better way to explain it is that gamers are shallow people and want to feel good about themselves, and the way they measure this is to look at the games that look like they forced the developer to work the hardest.  So when you hear about the latest 360 game, you get a bunch of nonsense about what resolution it runs at, how many polygons are on screen, what sound codecs are being used, etc.  And then you learn about the advanced AI with all these fancy terms.  You hear that lots of stuff was motion captured, that developers went the "extra mile" for certain things (such as consulting a general for a military game and truth-to-reality, or modeling tracks in real life for a racing game), etc etc etc.

So when Joe Gamer looks at Gears of War, he thinks the graphics are awesome, the monsters look cool, it's bloody, there are big guns, fancy sounding words to describe everything, bla bla.  And he feels good because all of a sudden he starts thinking "Hey, these guys care so much about my entertainment that they went through all this trouble."

Then he looks over at Brain Age and calls it stupid because the graphics look so simple.  Truly, it looks like Nintendo copy and pasted stuff from a "55,000 Clip Art Super Deluxe Package" program and then added a scoreboard.

I think that is what it's come down to - production values.  Nevermind that no one had envisioned a game like Brain Age before it came out, or a userfriendly interface in Wii Sports that actually worked, because it doesn't matter.  The games look like tech demos and that's all this entire industry can latch onto and debate endlessly, instead of seeing it as another method toward entertainment on a console.  Suddenly it's bad to want to play things like Bejeweled and Cooking Mama because they are simple looking with simple rules.

I think that is how gamers do it - they try to find what makes them feel like they are special to have groups of people around the world slave away in tiny offices to deliver what is supposedly a great gaming experience.  The great thing about this perspective is that it's constantly moving forward, so what is considered "hardcore" today won't be that next year.  Gears of War will be forgotten about the moment its sequel hits, or when something even more graphically intense drops along.

So I don't think we can break down the definition, because it's always changing and evolving, and even then it is pretty much bullsh*t anyway.  You can be hardcore in Animal Crossing, Picross, and Madden just as much as you can be in Smash Bros, Halo, and Metal Gear Solid.  Getting 999,999 bells is just as much fun to certain people as getting a brain age of 20 or slaughtering a bunch of Locusts.

I don't see why it can't just be games anymore, like it used to be.  
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2007, 09:11:18 AM »
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Offline k_bukie

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2007, 09:20:37 AM »
I like the term "sandbox" game.  Something you can go to for a few minutes at a time, without any real sort of long-term goal, and just have fun without being concerned about progression.

Offline Nick DiMola

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2007, 09:22:03 AM »
Props to Strell for that response. Very well thought out and it makes a ton of very interesting and very true points. The whole hardcore vs. casual nonsense is a waste of time, lets just play the games that come out and not worry what they are or what people perceive of them.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2007, 09:28:32 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
Props to Strell for that response. Very well thought out and it makes a ton of very interesting and very true points. The whole hardcore vs. casual nonsense is a waste of time, lets just play the games that come out and not worry what they are or what people perceive of them.


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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2007, 10:32:22 AM »
"I don't see why it can't just be games anymore, like it used to be."

Well Nintendo started it so get mad at them.  It all really relates to the issue of who Nintendo is focusing on now.  What type or style or whatever of games are they making now and for what audience are they targetted at?  It all relates to concerns over the introduction of a new and very different audience and how much effort Nintendo will continue to make towards the old audience or whether or not classic game series the old audience loves will be compromised for the new audience.

It's really the standard "selling out" arguement where a chunk of the fanbase feels neglected.  We need to form categories for our arguement no matter what side we're on.  Those concerns need examples of neglect.  Those who think things are fine need examples of "gamer games" to prove that things are still okay.  The suggestion of Pikmin being a casual game was likely thought of to provide evidence that Nintendo always made "casual games" and thus hasn't changed.

Though I think something like those language teaching "games" that seem more like software than games are clearly "non-games".  If they were released on a PC no one would call them a game.