Author Topic: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games  (Read 31974 times)

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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2007, 10:39:05 PM »
Not that it's a bad thing... =3
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Offline S-U-P-E-R

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2007, 10:42:40 PM »
Quote

core users are also enjoying casual gaming

lies!

To me, Shiggy is a bizarre example of being able to walk the walk without being able to talk the talk. I think?

RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2007, 01:12:02 AM »
Thanks to infinite 1-up loops, getting a G'over in Sunshine's platform shoes was next to impossible.  Sitting through 40 attempts to beat the same level without nodding off into a sleepy rage was the REAL challenge.  
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2007, 03:27:12 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Michael8983
It's all relative. I guarantee you if you gave someone who never played video games in their life Super Mario Bros and then Super Mario Sunshine they would say the former is easier than the latter.
Sure Super Mario Sunshine seems MUCH easier to most of us now but we've been gaming with Mario for two decades.
Also a lot of NES games were more difficult for no other reason than because save files weren't common at the time. I don't consider that true difficulty as much as a technical restraint.

QFT.  All the complaints about infinite lives come back to this: The game has a FRICKING SAVE FEATURE.  If you ran out of lives, you'd just have to spend two extra minutes getting right back to the point where you died.  And that's not a bad thing - the only difference between Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Bros. is you don't have to slog all the way back to level 8-3 every time you run out of lives trying to get past all the Hammer Bros.

The truth is, "lives" are an outdated concept for most modern games, but Nintendo leaves 1-ups and lives in the Mario games because it knows people expect them.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2007, 07:09:14 AM »
Nintendo hasn't made "hard" games for a long time but their greatest titles aren't cakewalks either.  I think they found a good balance on the N64.  Those games weren't hard but they weren't really easy either.  I died in both N64 Zeldas.  I have no clue what the game over screen in Wind Waker looks like.  There's a line where a game gets compromised by making it too accessible or too user-friendly and I think Nintendo has crossed that a couple of times.  But then you get something like Super Mario Sunshine which is all over the place in difficulty.

Still this is Miyamoto talking about compromising core games for non-gamers again.  I'm getting tired of all the spin doctoring from fans I hear regarding comments like that.  This is nothing new.  It's just continuing the trend.

I don't know how he can come to any conclusions that "core users are also enjoying casual gaming".  When you're attracting a huge group of new customers how the hell would you have any idea what the original group is actually buying?  Why can't Nintendo just give the core games games for core gamers and not care if those games appeal to non-gamers?  Those games made a profit before and will make one now.  Why must every corporation spend so much time looking at who isn't their customer and so little on who is?  This "every game is for everyone" bullsh!t helped sink Nintendo in the first place.  What do you think that whole "k!ddy" stuff was really about?

Offline Strell

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2007, 07:14:25 AM »
God I'm sick of hyperbole and the websites that use that as their only tactic to draw in readers(Kotaku, 1up, Joystiq, Destructoid...).
I must find a way to use "burninate" more in my daily speech.

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Offline UncleBob

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2007, 07:20:19 AM »
For all you wussies that want to say how SNES and N64 games were hard (heck, I'll throw in some of you who say original NES games were hard), I have to say... you're all wussies.

Go play to the last level of Pac-Man, then tell me today's games are hard.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2007, 07:46:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo hasn't made "hard" games for a long time but their greatest titles aren't cakewalks either.  I think they found a good balance on the N64.  Those games weren't hard but they weren't really easy either.  I died in both N64 Zeldas.  I have no clue what the game over screen in Wind Waker looks like.  There's a line where a game gets compromised by making it too accessible or too user-friendly and I think Nintendo has crossed that a couple of times.  But then you get something like Super Mario Sunshine which is all over the place in difficulty.

Still this is Miyamoto talking about compromising core games for non-gamers again.  I'm getting tired of all the spin doctoring from fans I hear regarding comments like that.  This is nothing new.  It's just continuing the trend.

I don't know how he can come to any conclusions that "core users are also enjoying casual gaming".  When you're attracting a huge group of new customers how the hell would you have any idea what the original group is actually buying?  Why can't Nintendo just give the core games games for core gamers and not care if those games appeal to non-gamers?  Those games made a profit before and will make one now.  Why must every corporation spend so much time looking at who isn't their customer and so little on who is?  This "every game is for everyone" bullsh!t helped sink Nintendo in the first place.  What do you think that whole "k!ddy" stuff was really about?


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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2007, 07:50:47 AM »
I think the point is, some games simply think a hard game is fun.  It takes the concept that a games ultimate task is to be challenging, and the harder a game is (as long as it is still fair) the more fun the game will be.

Shiggy has ALWAYS denounced this idea.  A fun game is fun to play whether it is difficult or not.  It is fun because the basic mechanics the "how to play" are enjoyable by themselves...then the challenge added can enhance the game or lengthen the game...but if the game never gets hard it is still fun.

A good example of this is Super Mario 64.  Quite literally the very early levels are instantly accessable with how easy they are...and it is fun to just move Mario around.  I have gone and played through Mario 64 several times, because collecting the each of the Stars is fun whether or not that particular Star is a challenge or not.

Another example would be the Wario Ware series...specially Smooth Moves.  The game really is not difficult.  You simply react to situation as feels natural to the commands and you can succeed.  The games difficulty comes from learning what to do when and reacting fast enough when the game speeds up.  But, you don't have to worry about the really challenging stuff to beat the game, but the gameplay makes that game fun throughout anyway.

A long list of games like this could be made...and a long list of games that difficulty being too hard makes the games less enjoyable and overall, not fun to play.

The issue Shiggy is bringing up isn't whether or not a game should be hard, but whether or not a game is FUN to broad audience, and how can you make a game more enjoyable to larger numbers of people.

Offline UERD

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2007, 08:01:00 AM »
Quote

I would rate SMS as anything from trivially easy to frustratingly hard depending on the level. Some were pushovers while others were a real pain to deal with. E.g. one "secret" has you running along a path of decaying blocks, I found it almost impossible to keep Mario on the path because if you make a turn the camera will start turning as well and you have to constantly readjust the direction you move in, if you move too far off even once you fall off the track and have to restart the "secret", if you stop to adjust the camera the block under you decays and you fall, *bzzt* restart.


I can definitely sympathize. However, that would be a design flaw as to how the camera was programmed to behave. The inherent game mechanics weren't at fault (conceivably, you could come up with a way to fix the camera controls to eliminate that problem, but not change the core gameplay in a non-trivial manner).
 
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2007, 08:29:32 AM »
Is it just me or is an apparent contradiction to complain about what Miyamoto said and be a fan of earlier NIntendo games? They have ALWAYS been about easily accessible games where anyone can play them and, yes, enjoy them without them being super hard.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2007, 08:55:53 AM »
HARDCORE GAMERS ARE DOOMED!!!!

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Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2007, 09:01:27 AM »
From my experience, I've found that a challenging game with a worthy payoff can be immensely enjoyable, but those are the exceptions and certainly not the rule.

However, I've also noted that a game doesn't need to be challenging to be entertaining, only satisfying, and I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing.

Look at classic turn-based RPGs: they're stupid easy to beat, and that's because the only thing separating you from victory is a certain amount of time spent grinding random encounters.

And yet, there are many people who cite these same RPGs as some of the best gaming experiences they've ever had. Can anyone argue that they're wrong when all they're expressing is their enjoyment and, more importantly, their patronage?

Games can strike a balance in difficulty through a number of means. There's the "difficulty selection" option which generally works well, but in the case of Nintendo games, they usually have situations where facing greater difficulty results in greater reward but isn't required for game completion.

There's getting all the medals in SF64, 120 stars in SM64, finishing the Metroid games in under 2 hours, etc. These add an extra element for the gamers which want more of a challenge while not harming the fun factor for the gamers who want less of a challenge.

Wii Sports is also the same way. The game is ridiculously easy to pick up, but competitive players who have mastered all of its depth can crush lesser players with ease.

I think the balance can be found and can be fun, it's just that developers will need to go that extra mile to ensure their games can appeal to new players while also having ample depth for hardcore gamers to explore.

In the end, the goal is to make sure everyone has fun playing your game.
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Offline UERD

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2007, 09:02:51 AM »
Quote

In the end, the goal is to make sure everyone has fun playing your game.


Games about being fun? What a concept!
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2007, 09:14:26 AM »
Who here likes both the "casual" games and the "hardcore" games? Ian seems to doubt we exist.

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Offline Strell

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2007, 09:16:21 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Who here likes both the "casual" games and the "hardcore" games? Ian seems to doubt we exist.

::raises hand:: Wii sports is awesome!


Yo, man.  Dang 'ole casual gamers talkin' bout dang ole Wii Sports, man.
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Offline vudu

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2007, 09:19:47 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: UERD
Quote

In the end, the goal is to make sure everyone has fun playing your game.


Games about being fun? What a concept!
Depends on who you ask.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2007, 09:22:35 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: vudu
Quote

Originally posted by: UERD
Quote

In the end, the goal is to make sure everyone has fun playing your game.


Games about being fun? What a concept!
Depends on who you ask.


Lol I remember that thread.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2007, 11:09:28 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: vudu
Quote

Originally posted by: UERD
Quote

In the end, the goal is to make sure everyone has fun playing your game.


Games about being fun? What a concept!
Depends on who you ask.


Wow... I could still use my signature back then...

Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Who here likes both the "casual" games and the "hardcore" games? Ian seems to doubt we exist.

::raises hand:: Wii sports is awesome!


Adventure games are, at the same both the most hardcore and the most casual games you could ever imagine. Count me in.  
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Offline stevey

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2007, 02:06:39 PM »
*rant warring*

Quote

are not difficult and yet very fun to play


Bull, there no fun in a game if all you do is to hit A once and win. Game should be challenging. The fun is trying to beat game and feel like you accomplish something when you win. I feel rip off win a beat a boss on my 1st or 2nd try. The fun is in getting kill 5 times, getting better each time, and finally be able to overcome the boss. It not fun hitting it in it's weak point over and over while it acts brain dead running in circles. Nor is it fun to get near to beating a boss and does a cheap finisher that's unblockable and everyone die no matter how much heath you have or get hit some other over power move instead of fighting intelligently with it's attacks and move. MP2 had the perfect difficulty that wasn't cheap but challenging and should of been the bar for future games difficultly (I love the fact TP used mp2 as it's bar for difficultly). But, "Oh noes I die twice in boss fight with boost gardien, this game is too hard and I want my bottle" bitching from want a be gamer sent the wrong message to Nintendo and now this.......*rant* *rant* *rant* *rant*

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Was that to me? ^_^ Why do you think I feel like the N64 was my personal golden age of gaming? Games were finally easy enough for me to beat! To this day, I am a Mario Kart 64 GOD... while Super Mario Kart on the SNES makes me break out in cold sweats.

But in the interest of Full Disclousre, I must admit that I'd ALWAYS play it on easy mode. I don't have time to get stuck in a game nowadays.


Your joke right? O_o

Quote

Quote

Originally posted by: MJRx9000
I remember some videogames used to have this one thing in the menu, it was great; you could choose Easy, Medium, or Hard, and the game would either be Easy, Medium, or Hard, depending on which one you selected. I wish the Wii could do that.


Wow, that's actually very rare nowadays in all games. I wonder why?


Because it not as easy to make game hard. The few Hard mode game don't make it challenging but just add more baddie or health to boss and don't touch the AI and if you can kill one retarded baddie you can just as easy kill 5. And the rest just make the game frustrating in breaking your character.

 
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2007, 02:32:46 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: stevey
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Was that to me? ^_^ Why do you think I feel like the N64 was my personal golden age of gaming? Games were finally easy enough for me to beat! To this day, I am a Mario Kart 64 GOD... while Super Mario Kart on the SNES makes me break out in cold sweats.

But in the interest of Full Disclousre, I must admit that I'd ALWAYS play it on easy mode. I don't have time to get stuck in a game nowadays.


Your joke right? O_o


About what? SMK for the SNES gave me knots in my stomache, but MK64 is... it's so easy! /ahppy

And yeah, I really do play on easy mode if I can. Unless it's a game I really pride myself in knowing, like Zelda. I'd play that in hard mode if given because I love that game and would really treasure mastering it at that level.

But most games I just don't care anough about their shoe-horned-in difficulty which really makes very little sense and is more arbitrary than not. I'd rather play the game on easy and beat the game than get stuck and be disappointed with it.

Ooh! I have a quote!

Quote

"Exactly. Modern gaming is like strip mining. Beat the main story, extract the achievements and get the hell out."
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Quote

Originally posted by: stevey
Quote

Quote

Originally posted by: MJRx9000
I remember some videogames used to have this one thing in the menu, it was great; you could choose Easy, Medium, or Hard, and the game would either be Easy, Medium, or Hard, depending on which one you selected. I wish the Wii could do that.


Wow, that's actually very rare nowadays in all games. I wonder why?


Because it not as easy to make game hard. The few Hard mode game don't make it challenging but just add more baddie or health to boss and don't touch the AI and if you can kill one retarded baddie you can just as easy kill 5. And the rest just make the game frustrating in breaking your character.


That strikes me as very true. If all "hard mode" is is 5 dumb enemies instead of one, and 4 hearts taken away instead of two, then it DOES strike one as sort of pointless.
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Offline Shecky

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2007, 02:46:11 PM »
I die at least once in every Zelda game to chickens...  

Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2007, 03:16:53 PM »
I am beginning to love casual games more than hardcore games...but hardcore games are still very important to me.

Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2007, 04:20:00 PM »
Video game nerds need to accept that the video game industry isn't a secret club for video game nerds anymore. =3

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2007, 04:31:34 PM »
I also love the Casual as well as the hardcore. I have enjoyed all of the Touch Generations games I have played, especially Animal Crossing, Clubhouse Games, and Big Brain Academy, and I'm so addicted to Picross that I fear I may accidentally die due to depriving myself of nourishment because I'm too busy playing that game. I think Nintendo's philosophy of fun being the main objective of their development is why I am such a fan, and I realize that fun can be produced in many ways, some of which could be deemed "casual" and some "hardcore", but in the end they're both fun.
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