Author Topic: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games  (Read 31948 times)

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Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2007, 05:32:20 PM »
Life has pretty much forced me to become a casual gamer. Some days I'll get in half an hour of DS goodness on the train and that's it, because the last thing I feel like doing when I get home is to roll my eyes through a modern console video game, which are mostly all story and very little gameplay. Might as well just play a Mega CD game.

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2007, 06:25:46 PM »
As long you as don't become a casual forum poster and blogger, we're all good.

Offline Infernal Monkey

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2007, 06:53:29 PM »

Offline Kairon

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2007, 06:55:32 PM »
There's nothing more "casual" than a personal blog. Just look at Myspace. The internet is one of the biggest weapons in a casual's armament.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2007, 09:38:13 PM »
I think the key component to challenge is error feedback. It goes in many directions. Failing a section is a way of feedback. I definitely feel cheated if I perform a Charlie Foxtrot in a game and still manage to pass the area intact, when I mess up badly I should have to retry the part. However I feel similarily cheated if I fail when I cannot see what I did wrong. E.g. in Street Fighter 2 20th anniversary I can't even beat the second level on easiest difficulty and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong so I cannot improve, as a result I don't want to play the game anymore.

Another important component is the punishment for minor fuckups, if making one tiny error means you have to replay the last 15-30 minutes of the game (possibly including cutscenes) that's not just hard, that's effing sadistic. It's the reason I stopped playing Final Fantasy X, being stuck at a boss that follows a 15 minute cutscene. I just am not willing to watch a 15 minute cutscene EVERY SINGLE F###ING TIME I fight that guy. Also that boss can wipe my whole party in one round so I don't feel like playing that battle at all.

All this is the reason I hate stealth. In stealth games you don't just lose a few HP when you're found, you lose the whole mission. You don't even see a clear border for when you fail a stealth mission, there's an invisible radius you can be heard in, an invisible area you can be seen in, etc. You get into a place you didn't even know was bad and you fail immediately. That's the reason I kill every enemy in a stealth sequence, to defuse the invisible fail triggers. If that doesn't work I just give up and play another game instead, there's enough choice.

As I said before, make the guards shoot laser cones from their eyes that hurt you when you're in them instead of triggering an alarm and I might play the game.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2007, 09:44:18 PM »
Great insight KDR.
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Offline tiamat1990

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2007, 10:13:48 PM »
It's a realistic stealth game...what do you expect really? And in Zack and Wiki apparently there are even levels that take hours to complete and if you lose you start all over again.

But anyway, I'm kind of hoping that he doesn't really mean that "hardcore games are pointless" which is what I'm pretty much getting from this. And I don't like his generalization.

Quote

"While there are indeed games designed for core and casual markets," Miyamoto says, "core users are also enjoying casual gaming. It is very hard to tune the difficulty just for the core market. Even for us, we would still have difficulty finding the right balance. But I think the future is games that are not difficult and yet very fun to play."


To some extent yes but if I had a choice (which we're not getting...really, WiiFit?) I'd pass on casual games. But I guess that's just me. Wii Sports was great yes but would I have bought it if it was a separate game? No...see my problem is what is a casual game? Could you call Guitar Hero a casual game? Because to Nintendo casual games are stuff like...Brain Age, Wii Fit, Face Training (?!!)...  

Offline Kairon

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2007, 10:20:57 PM »
Yeah, I'd call Guitar Hero a casual game. It's only fair, since we call DDR a casual game.

God Wii Fit is gonna be AWESOME. But I still want Wii Music more than anything.
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Offline Deguello

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2007, 10:50:33 PM »
Quote

All this is the reason I hate stealth. In stealth games you don't just lose a few HP when you're found, you lose the whole mission. You don't even see a clear border for when you fail a stealth mission, there's an invisible radius you can be heard in, an invisible area you can be seen in, etc. You get into a place you didn't even know was bad and you fail immediately. That's the reason I kill every enemy in a stealth sequence, to defuse the invisible fail triggers. If that doesn't work I just give up and play another game instead, there's enough choice.


the worst stealth segment I have EVER played, was in Hitman 2.  It involved a huge snow plain and you sneaking past a slew of Japanese people in all-concealing clothes.  That's cool, you can put a guy to sleep and grab one.  But somehow the other guards can see that you aren't one of them, even though you are basically in a diving suit with your face concealed.  But that's not even the worst part.  Several glitches cause some of the guards to run in front of their own trucks, die, get discovered, and raise their own alarms of your presence, all this on a path that you don't even have to take to complete the level.  You lose for something that happens on the other side of the damn level.  I really regret giving it an 8.
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2007, 10:51:44 PM »
Quote

To some extent yes but if I had a choice (which we're not getting...really, WiiFit?)


Could you tell me what other games are coming out in 2008? Clearly you must know!

I agree with the philosophy that well THIS philosophy is nothing really new for Nintendo.

Offline tiamat1990

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2007, 11:19:06 PM »
Ok...fair enough. You got me there. But seriously, Wii Fit?? I'll probably buy it because of the board but really...I don't know. Miyamoto is supposedly announcing a new IP and if that new IP is a god damn casual game then...something bad will happen, probably.

Offline Mashiro

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2007, 11:22:12 PM »
Was Pikmin really anything but a casual game?

/discuss

Offline Smoke39

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2007, 12:22:18 AM »
Time limit foils all attempts at casual play.
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2007, 03:18:09 AM »
Pikmin is about as hardcore as games get.

As for Wii Fit and Nintendogs, I respect Miyamoto for coming up with new ways to entertain people.  His ability to let go of the action-adventure genre that he has mined so successfully for 25-plus years is just one more example of how he's thinking on a different level than almost anyone else in the industry...and it's what's going to make Wii the #1 console with the best third party support this generation.  I will take "casual" Miyamoto games if it means Mega Man, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Castlevania and others will be playable on Wii.

Not to mention a lot of these casual games are a breath of fresh air for the industry.  Halo 3 may be awesome, but it's also one in a hundred...Wii Fit is practically the only product of it's kind.  DDR and Wii Sports are the only games that compare.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2007, 04:47:45 AM »
I'm taking more offense to stealth segments in non-stealth games. IMO that frustrating and awful style of gameplay should stay locked into its own genre, not infecting the likes of Metroid and Zelda.

Offline ShyGuy

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2007, 07:43:00 AM »
The Grand Theft Auto series is a casual game.

Offline Mashiro

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2007, 09:51:33 AM »
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Pikmin is about as hardcore as games get.


/explain?

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2007, 10:22:40 AM »
Pikmin is a hardcore pill in casually flavored coating.

Not only do you start caring about numbers in order to succeed, but you begin caring about multi-tasking and other simultaneous events and information cues going on.

But the game's presentation is easy to digest without trying to overwhelm the player.
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Offline Maverick

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2007, 10:22:54 AM »
Mashiro, why do you keep using backslashes before words at the end of your posts?

/confused  
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2007, 10:26:09 AM »
So you're not confused anymore?

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2007, 10:40:19 AM »
whut a noob
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Offline Mashiro

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2007, 10:43:11 AM »
Because I like using emotes mixed with words THAT'S WHY.

Quote

Pikmin is a hardcore pill in casually flavored coating.

Not only do you start caring about numbers in order to succeed, but you begin caring about multi-tasking and other simultaneous events and information cues going on.

But the game's presentation is easy to digest without trying to overwhelm the player.


Ah and here is where what is casual begins to become a gray area

Offline Maverick

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2007, 11:15:16 AM »
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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
So you're not confused anymore?

(Mashiro is using it wrong, just ignore him!)


Yeah, I thought he was trying to start his own thing or somethin'... it was just starting to get to me a little.  :-P
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2007, 11:31:21 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Professional 666
Pikmin is a hardcore pill in casually flavored coating.

Not only do you start caring about numbers in order to succeed, but you begin caring about multi-tasking and other simultaneous events and information cues going on.

But the game's presentation is easy to digest without trying to overwhelm the player.


So the Sims series must be a hardcore game as well right?
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Shiggy speaks about Casual and Hardcore games
« Reply #74 on: August 15, 2007, 11:55:26 AM »
Oh, in a sense it sure is.  But what would kick it out of the hardcore range is the fact it's not about success/failure of an objective, like in Animal Crossing -- cuz the objectives are driven by the player.

But here's the REAL DEAL;

Hardcore is not the game, hardcore is the player.
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