Author Topic: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess  (Read 16271 times)

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Offline Pale

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IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« on: September 16, 2006, 04:36:53 PM »
There's a GameCube version?

Twilight Princess has been shrouded in controversy ever since Nintendo announced that there would be a Wii version.  I have been fortunate enough to play each of the major incarnations of the game; the GCN version (at PAX 05), the Wii version with button based sword control (at E3 06), and the latest Wii version with gesture based sword control (at the Wii press event in September, 06).  The latest version may just be the best version yet.    


Playing it was special, though.  Instead of experiencing it in the standard, crowded environment of a convention center, I got to sit on a couch for over an hour, playing through the dungeon demo three full times.  The first thing I did was experiment with the sword controls by smacking the first scarecrow around.  In the E3 version a button was used to swing the sword, much like a traditional Zelda.  If you tapped the button Link would initiate a combo of swipes back and forth with the occasional jab.  In this new version Nintendo has split the single button into two distinct gestures.  Making a tight left to right motion with the controller translated to a swipe.  Direction wasn't necessarily consistent.  If I swiped left to right, Link may swipe right to left.  If you continue swiping the controller, Link will continue the combo of swipes on screen (up to three total swipes in the demo).  The second gesture is a jab towards the screen that translates into a very similar jab motion by Link.  The combination of these two movements creates very fluid fighting that is surprisingly precise.  At first I had a hard time initiating combat, but once I got used to the motion, I had no problems.  I was looking forward to actually attacking a moving target.    


Fear not, classic Zelda fans: Z-targeting is still an integral part of fights.  When locked on to a target, two more attack options are added.  Firstly, you can shield attack by motioning the nunchuck forward.  This adds quite a bit of realism and fun to the fight.  You can also do the classic Link lunge attack by pressing the A button.  This is especially interesting if your foe is laying on the ground, as Link performs a rather vicious down thrust to the abdomen.    


Overall, the fighting was perfect.  If you follow the forums at all, you will know that I was very worried when I heard Nintendo changed what was at E3, as I was one of the few who liked what was done there.  The change was definitely for the best and, in case you were wondering, my arm wasn't tired at all after an hour of play.    


Arrow firing was another hot topic at E3.  Many people claimed it was overly sensitive and frustrating.  Some slight changes have been made there as well.  At E3 there was a circle around the screen when in targeting mode.  This helped point out where you needed to put the pointer to trigger the edge sensitive scrolling.  That is gone now.  Instead you use the analog stick while in first person mode to move your view around while aiming with the pointer.  This works quite a bit better once you figure it out.  The pointer is still just as sensitive as ever.  It is important that you understand how the game is played.  I actually corrected a couple people who were having some problems.  They weren't drawing their arrow before aiming.  That is done by holding down the B button.  You then want to aim while holding the button, releasing when the red dot is on your target.  If you aim first, the action of pushing the button in will probably knock the remote just enough to throw your aim off.    


When I left E3, Metroid Prime 3 was my favorite Wii title.  When I left the press event it became a distant second.  I'm sure everyone has read several very pointed opinions about the Twilight Princess situation.  Here is another one for you.  You might as well forget that the GameCube version even exists.

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Offline Artimus

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2006, 05:02:00 PM »
Awesome. This is exactly what I wanted to hear.

Offline mantidor

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2006, 05:04:37 PM »
If I ever have the oportunity I'll try it, but Im still not convinced, the sword slashing is still just replacing the button for gestures (its not that theres a lot more to do anyway, is the only choice), and it doesnt even differenciates between left-to-right slashing and right-to-left slashing. Its really like a bunch of remote minigames put over the traditional layout. Any interest I may have goes away when I know theres an equivalent for that motion with the traditional controller.

You were the only guy in the staff who liked the game's controls this past E3, so forgive if I don't listen to your advice of forgetting the GC version , it still looks like the version with better controls for me.

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Offline Artimus

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2006, 05:11:17 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
If I ever have the oportunity I'll try it, but Im still not convinced, the sword slashing is still just replacing the button for gestures (its not that theres a lot more to do anyway, is the only choice), and it doesnt even differenciates between left-to-right slashing and right-to-left slashing. Its really like a bunch of remote minigames put over the traditional layout. Any interest I may have goes away when I know theres an equivalent for that motion with the traditional controller.


I don't understand this. If we assume that you can either perform a gesture or use buttons for most actions, then the question is what feels more natural. If swinging the remote feels more natural and more immersive, clearly that is going to be the superior system. Am I wrong?

Offline Smoke39

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2006, 05:12:14 PM »
I'm with mantidor.  I'll try it if the oportunity ever presents itself, but I'm definitely leaning increasingly toward the GCN version.  The Wii controls sound inconsistent and sloppy to me.
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2006, 05:21:32 PM »
Never mind what the people who actually played it think, eh?
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Offline mantidor

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2006, 05:27:22 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
If I ever have the oportunity I'll try it, but Im still not convinced, the sword slashing is still just replacing the button for gestures (its not that theres a lot more to do anyway, is the only choice), and it doesnt even differenciates between left-to-right slashing and right-to-left slashing. Its really like a bunch of remote minigames put over the traditional layout. Any interest I may have goes away when I know theres an equivalent for that motion with the traditional controller.


I don't understand this. If we assume that you can either perform a gesture or use buttons for most actions, then the question is what feels more natural. If swinging the remote feels more natural and more immersive, clearly that is going to be the superior system. Am I wrong?


I agree with you, but I suppose is personal preference, I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls. Maybe is the fact that pointing in first person is more accesible that sword fights, sword fights are way more complex, and in that case putting gestures does the opposite of making it more intuitive, it makes it more difficult to aproach to, also this difficulty is for nothing, because it really doesn't matter if you swing left-right, right-left or do a jab, the game's enemies acknowledges all motions with the same result, block or take a hit.
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Offline blackfootsteps

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2006, 05:27:36 PM »
Good impressions.

Is the red dot necessary when bow aiming? IIRC none of the other 3d Zelda's have had any kind of sight for the bow, relying instead on good judgement.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2006, 05:42:38 PM »
I guess I've finally made my decision about what version to get.

Thanks.
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Offline Pale

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2006, 05:48:15 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: blackfootsteps
Good impressions.

Is the red dot necessary when bow aiming? IIRC none of the other 3d Zelda's have had any kind of sight for the bow, relying instead on good judgement.

Yeah, it's pretty important.  I think aiming would be near impossible without it.
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Offline Artimus

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2006, 05:50:59 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
If I ever have the oportunity I'll try it, but Im still not convinced, the sword slashing is still just replacing the button for gestures (its not that theres a lot more to do anyway, is the only choice), and it doesnt even differenciates between left-to-right slashing and right-to-left slashing. Its really like a bunch of remote minigames put over the traditional layout. Any interest I may have goes away when I know theres an equivalent for that motion with the traditional controller.


I don't understand this. If we assume that you can either perform a gesture or use buttons for most actions, then the question is what feels more natural. If swinging the remote feels more natural and more immersive, clearly that is going to be the superior system. Am I wrong?


I agree with you, but I suppose is personal preference, I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls. Maybe is the fact that pointing in first person is more accesible that sword fights, sword fights are way more complex, and in that case putting gestures does the opposite of making it more intuitive, it makes it more difficult to aproach to, also this difficulty is for nothing, because it really doesn't matter if you swing left-right, right-left or do a jab, the game's enemies acknowledges all motions with the same result, block or take a hit.


Ohh, you played them? I hadn't realized that.

Offline Ceric

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2006, 05:56:38 PM »
I'm happy to see the movements mapped instead of 1 to 1.  I'm glad that this system breaks it up so that I can vary the combo a little.  It's not all computer decided.  Sure I like to know how the Shield works a little more.    I'm also glad that shooting a bow is like shooting a real bow aiming wise.  If you aim first draw second your going to be off.  Sounds to me it will have a timing aspect to it with the swings like with PSO.
It looks to me to give more variety in a task you'll probably/hopefully do a lot.  (Though can someone tell me if the do the little sound thing like in Windwaker?)
This version sounds more appealing me.  (I enjoyed God of War, at least till the Trap of Madness, it's whole system revolved around button pressing minigames.)
Transparent mini-games are good.  Makes it feel like their some depth there.
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Offline mantidor

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2006, 06:03:34 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
If I ever have the oportunity I'll try it, but Im still not convinced, the sword slashing is still just replacing the button for gestures (its not that theres a lot more to do anyway, is the only choice), and it doesnt even differenciates between left-to-right slashing and right-to-left slashing. Its really like a bunch of remote minigames put over the traditional layout. Any interest I may have goes away when I know theres an equivalent for that motion with the traditional controller.


I don't understand this. If we assume that you can either perform a gesture or use buttons for most actions, then the question is what feels more natural. If swinging the remote feels more natural and more immersive, clearly that is going to be the superior system. Am I wrong?


I agree with you, but I suppose is personal preference, I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls. Maybe is the fact that pointing in first person is more accesible that sword fights, sword fights are way more complex, and in that case putting gestures does the opposite of making it more intuitive, it makes it more difficult to aproach to, also this difficulty is for nothing, because it really doesn't matter if you swing left-right, right-left or do a jab, the game's enemies acknowledges all motions with the same result, block or take a hit.


Ohh, you played them? I hadn't realized that.


You know I can flip your sarcasm pretty much the same way. People who have tried the game have had very different opinions, and as you are happy with what you are hearing, Im also not happy with it, and I dont think both of us are wrong or anything just because we haven't played any of this games.

Its seriously not that hard to know what to expect in a general sense, maybe is hard the specific level of intuitiveness like I said in the other thread about Link being left handed, and that as a lefty I wont say anything is more intuitive for my laterality without trying, but in the general sense of gameplay mechanics, its perfectly reasonable to have an idea already of how much are we going to be ok with it or not. As I said, if I can, I'll try it, but what Im listening doesn't convince me to put $50 into this version.




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Offline RickPowers

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2006, 06:06:04 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
If I ever have the oportunity I'll try it, but Im still not convinced, the sword slashing is still just replacing the button for gestures (its not that theres a lot more to do anyway, is the only choice), and it doesnt even differenciates between left-to-right slashing and right-to-left slashing. Its really like a bunch of remote minigames put over the traditional layout. Any interest I may have goes away when I know theres an equivalent for that motion with the traditional controller.


You know, I seem to remember similar concerns before the release of the Nintendo DS.  "All you're doing is replacing button presses with drawing lines and circles.  That's not immersive."  In fact, I was saying some of those exact same things.  Then games like Nintendogs and Trauma Center proved me wrong.  Using the stylus can be far more immersive when implemented correctly.

In light of already having to eat a significant helping of crow already, I'm willing to give Nintendo the benefit of the doubt.  
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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2006, 06:09:29 PM »
Well Twilight Princess would be more like Super Mario 64 DS than Nintendogs.

Offline Athrun Zala

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2006, 06:28:36 PM »
yay!

thanks for convincing me EVEN MORE that the Wii version is the one to get
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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2006, 06:47:21 PM »
Quote

As I said, if I can, I'll try it, but what Im listening doesn't convince me to put $50 into this version.


well it won't be avalible for any other amount of cash.

This makes me happy to here, but It sounds aucword to move the camra with the joystk while aiming but I figure what your looking at will already be in vew.

I knew nintndo knew what it was doing when they made these controle changes, now the final blow to gannon will be 3 times as satifying.
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Offline Guitar Smasher

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2006, 06:47:47 PM »
Mantidor, I strongly suggest you try both versions before you make a decision.  The Wii version sounds great to me, but I can understand how you might find it sounding not as fun as it may be.  Flicking the wii-mote does sound uninteresting in theory, but I'm willing to bet that it's pretty fun in practice.  Again, it's something you'll have to try before you can make a fair judgment.

Offline Artimus

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2006, 07:41:03 PM »
Mantidor, you said "I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls." How else am I supposed to respond?

Seriously, though, I haven't seen any comments saying the GCN build is superior to this newest one yet. IGN had positive comments, as did PGC. Where are the negatives?

Offline Smoke39

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2006, 07:47:20 PM »
Merely reading positive comments isn't good enough for me.  I've disliked several games I've bought that got consistently good reviews.  The description of TP's Wii controls doesn't sound terribly appealing to me, so I'm currently more inclined to buy the version that has traditional controls that I already know I like.
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Offline Faithinchaos

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2006, 08:05:02 PM »
Well, theres nothing new to the GCN version, because its still the same. Unchanged. Just like you got in Wind Waker.
From what I've heard its basically not in development anymore, and its game assets are basically frozen.
As for the opinions: Its alright to let them think that everything they know is automatically better than anything new. Nintendo after all is known for screwing franchises up *cough Metroid,* and regularly demonstrates they don't know what they're doing *cough cough DS,* nor should we trust in them our beloved Zelda *cough Wind Waker cough.*

As for me, I'm not sweating it.

Offline mantidor

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2006, 08:06:44 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Mantidor, you said "I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls." How else am I supposed to respond?

Seriously, though, I haven't seen any comments saying the GCN build is superior to this newest one yet. IGN had positive comments, as did PGC. Where are the negatives?



Theres no recent impressions whatsover about the GC version, Nintendo is trying its hardest to kill it, so of course you aren't going to find any comments saying which version is superior. Not at least until december 11th, when the wii would have moved enough units of the game for Nintendo to not feel threaten by the GC version, I really can't wait for it, so that we have a real one-on-one comparison.

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2006, 08:17:39 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Mantidor, you said "I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls." How else am I supposed to respond?

Seriously, though, I haven't seen any comments saying the GCN build is superior to this newest one yet. IGN had positive comments, as did PGC. Where are the negatives?



Theres no recent impressions whatsover about the GC version, Nintendo is trying its hardest to kill it, so of course you aren't going to find any comments saying which version is superior. Not at least until december 11th, when the wii would have moved enough units of the game for Nintendo to not feel threaten by the GC version, I really can't wait for it, so that we have a real one-on-one comparison.


Why would we need updated impressions? It hasn't changed. So I'll ask, again, for you to post negative comments on the current Wii build.

Offline IceCold

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RE: IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2006, 08:27:20 PM »
Quote

Playing it was special, though. Instead of experiencing it in the standard, crowded environment of a convention center, I got to sit on a couch for over an hour, playing through the dungeon demo three full times
Wonderful. In another one of these discussions, I said that I would not pay attention to the impressions at E3 since there was a lot of pressure, and the environment was terrible to play the game in. This was doubly true since it's a brand new control scheme to a franchise that we've been using traditional controls with for years. I also wanted a more finalised version of the game with updated controls. It looks like it's really improved, and it's shaping up nicely.
Quote

The change was definitely for the best and, in case you were wondering, my arm wasn't tired at all after an hour of play
That's great news too; it wasn't a concern to me personally, but I could see how it would be to many people..
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Offline mantidor

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RE:IMPRESSIONS: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2006, 08:29:11 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
Mantidor, you said "I find Metroid controls more intuitive, but not the sword controls." How else am I supposed to respond?

Seriously, though, I haven't seen any comments saying the GCN build is superior to this newest one yet. IGN had positive comments, as did PGC. Where are the negatives?



Theres no recent impressions whatsover about the GC version, Nintendo is trying its hardest to kill it, so of course you aren't going to find any comments saying which version is superior. Not at least until december 11th, when the wii would have moved enough units of the game for Nintendo to not feel threaten by the GC version, I really can't wait for it, so that we have a real one-on-one comparison.


Why would we need updated impressions? It hasn't changed. So I'll ask, again, for you to post negative comments on the current Wii build.


I highly doubt it hasn't changed at all, this is supposed to be a huge game, and whatever they do for the wii version, they have to make something, anything at all for the GC version, any minigame, any puzzle, any combat mechanic has to have a GC counterpart, whatever original idea they create for the remote has to have a GC counterpart. Just because we knew a tiny piece of the GC version 2 years ago doesn't mean theres nothing else to know about it. The gameplay is not a carbon copy of the Wind Waker, OoT or MM, theres new things added.

Quote

Originally posted by: Faithinchaos
Well, theres nothing new to the GCN version, because its still the same. Unchanged. Just like you got in Wind Waker.
From what I've heard its basically not in development anymore, and its game assets are basically frozen.
As for the opinions: Its alright to let them think that everything they know is automatically better than anything new. Nintendo after all is known for screwing franchises up *cough Metroid,* and regularly demonstrates they don't know what they're doing *cough cough DS,* nor should we trust in them our beloved Zelda *cough Wind Waker cough.*

As for me, I'm not sweating it.


Thats the point of disagreement, while some of you consider TP to be new, I and many others don't consider it really new at all. Phantom Hourglass is really new in my eyes, and even with all the bad impressions it has and my many dislikes for some of the decisions they have made regarding the gameplay Im more interested in how it will turn out than how TP will turn out, because PH is a 100% original concept, TP isnt, its an old game with a layout of remote minigames.
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