Topic: Wii is so not hardcoreend

[Ceric]

But where will I get my now promised H games?
Also who else will take the heat away from Nintendo and MS?

[BigJim]

Fanboys calling others fanboys.

How rich.

[JonLeung]

I always thought Sony fanboys were more dronish than Nintendo fanboys.

Sony fanboys believe in the PlayStation name just because of marketing, whereas Nintendo fanboys swear by the games.

In other words, Sony believes in Sony because they're told to, and Nintendo fanboys at least know what they like.  At least, that's how I'd like to see it...  >_>

And Nintendo fanboys seem more "out there" as they are still a minority.  Or were.  And are typically more convinced that they like their games.

But how is that a bad thing?  You shouldn't buy a game console if you don't want to be a fan of its games.

[couchmonkey]

Oi.  Just oi.  I do agree with him on the claim that Wii isn't the "only" system for hardcore gamers, heck, I don't know who claimed it is the only choice for the hardcore.  But his list of "non-hardcore" games is silly.  What makes a game hardcore?  I'm inclined to agree with Pro: the gamer is hardcore, not the game.

Right opinion, wrong supporting evidence.  He should have pointed out all the games that the hardcore audience is missing by ignoring Playstation 3 rather than attacking games that hardtime longcore gamers love.

[BigJim]

Fanboys are fanboys for their own reasons. I mean, the PS systems had a number of games (good and bad) for just about anything you wanted to play. For that, it's an easy choice and an easy system for people to get behind. I don't think Sony fanboys are drones, I see that as a network effect. Their friend(s) have a PlayStation, and that kind of word of mouth is immensely powerful, and so it's a logical step. That's how many people became gamers, and Sony deserves fair credit for helping to make games "cool" again.

By that I mean they helped gaming break out of the "13 year old teenage boy" stereotype of the 8-bit and 16-bit days and make it a subset of pop culture that attracted adults as well. Sony's involvement was overall good for the industry.

Today it's a bit ironic to see Nintendo fanboys dishing it out against Sony, calling out arrogance and karma. I mean, Nintendo's past speaks for itself. Karma smacked their arrogance right upside the face. For some Nintendo fanboys to be so arrogant as to claim the PS3 is already dead? Stupid. Nintendo's the underdog with something to prove here. It hasn't even BEGUN yet.

That being said, at the end of the day, chip problems, delays, and all of that aren't going to matter. The market is extremely forgiving. Delays are quickly forgotten. The only REAL mistake Sony has made, IMHO, is that game consoles aren't "luxury items" as Sony's PR likes to call it. Their pricing is all wrong. Everything else will be forgotten with time.

[Smoke39]

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Originally posted by: Ceric
But where will I get my now promised H games?

On Wii.  With vibrating remote action for increased immersion.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
By that I mean they helped gaming break out of the "13 year old teenage boy" stereotype of the 8-bit and 16-bit days and make it a subset of pop culture that attracted adults as well. Sony's involvement was overall good for the industry.

I think that happened primarily because gamers grew into adulthood without giving up their favorite pastime.  If Sony hadn't been there, it would have happened on another console.

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Today it's a bit ironic to see Nintendo fanboys dishing it out against Sony, calling out arrogance and karma. I mean, Nintendo's past speaks for itself. Karma smacked their arrogance right upside the face.

That's true.  You'd think Sony would have noticed that they were walking into the same trap Nintendo once did, or the trap everyone who's become enamored with their own success has walked into.  "Pride goes before a fall" is an old concept -- old enough to be written in the Old Testament.

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That being said, at the end of the day, chip problems, delays, and all of that aren't going to matter. The market is extremely forgiving. Delays are quickly forgotten. The only REAL mistake Sony has made, IMHO, is that game consoles aren't "luxury items" as Sony's PR likes to call it. Their pricing is all wrong. Everything else will be forgotten with time.

I wonder about that, too.  The PS2 had a pretty crappy launch, as I recall, but it didn't have as much competition.

[Strell]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
Fanboys are fanboys for their own reasons. I mean, the PS systems had a number of games (good and bad) for just about anything you wanted to play. For that, it's an easy choice and an easy system for people to get behind. I don't think Sony fanboys are drones, I see that as a network effect. Their friend(s) have a PlayStation, and that kind of word of mouth is immensely powerful, and so it's a logical step.

Today it's a bit ironic to see Nintendo fanboys dishing it out against Sony, calling out arrogance and karma. I mean, Nintendo's past speaks for itself. Karma smacked their arrogance right upside the face. For some Nintendo fanboys to be so arrogant as to claim the PS3 is already dead? Stupid. Nintendo's the underdog with something to prove here. It hasn't even BEGUN yet.

What you describe about Sony fans is entirely the same definition as drones - mindlessly following the group.

The difference between Sony's arrogance and Nintendo's arrogance is that Nintendo has already gone through the rock-bottom phase.  Sony has been high rolling ever since they came out.  Nintendo's been at both extremes.  Because of that, they've been able to recognize their mistakes, where as Sony just comes out and issues statements like "wtf, we invented 3D, nougat, and Benjamin Franklin."  Not to mention Nintendo really changed after the exit of Yamauchimotron, which would be the equivalent of getting rid of Hirai, Kuntaragi, and whatever idiot called GIANT ENEMY CRABS authentic Japanese history.

It's not even worth it to compare them at this point, unless they existed in the same time frame, when they clearly don't and never could.

[Ceric]

*shrug*
I dish it out where it is.  I don't go out of my way.  Yeah I'll hark on Sony about all their problems.  I'll also Hark on Nintendo about all their problems too.  Lets not forget MS either.  I'm pretty equal opputunity.
I'll also do the flipside.  If any of them do something well in my mind then I will praise them about what they did well.
I know why I prefer Nintendo and I know why I avoid Sony and MS.  Just one of those things.

[Ian Sane]

"He doesn't seem to realize that Nintendo does NOT want to portray a hardcore image with the Wii."

I think he does realize that and that's the point he's making.  Nintendo isn't targetting the hardcore and therefore hardcore gamers, like YOU the reader, shouldn't buy it and should buy the PS3 instead.  That argument actually makes sense... except for the PS3 part.

None of the console makers this gen care at all about hardcore gamers, and by that I mean people seriously interested in games.  It's all about the mainstream.  That's what Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are all focusing on.  Nintendo's plan to do so is just different than the other two's.  Nintendo wants people who don't play games buying games.  Sony and MS want people who don't play games buying their console for other purposes.  In Sony's case it's to get people buying Blu-Ray.

Sega and SNK were hardcore gamer console makers.  They made their consoles for gamers and concentrated on who was buying their games instead of who wasn't.  They both failed sadly.

Ironically, when it comes to Nintendo, hardcore gamers tend to favour the NES and SNES days the best, when Nintendo was incredibly mainstream.  It's been the time period where Nintendo has catered to a more dedicated following that their output has been considered their weakest.

The moral of the story: I'm not sure.  Make lots of killer games, have friendly third party policies, don't jerk around your fans, and have incredible marketing and you'll probably do fine.

[BigJim]

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What you describe about Sony fans is entirely the same definition as drones - mindlessly following the group.

What makes it mindless? What I described was natural word of mouth advertising and network effect. That's how MOST people operate with anything. It's not mindless. It's the strongest form of advertising there is. Not the dumbest.

An example of what I consider mindless following were all the folks here, before E3, that said they were picking up a Wii on the first day, sight still unseen, price unknown, and completely in the dark about any Wii content whatsoever. Yet they were already sold.

The typical defense to that is, "Nintendo has a history that people can count on." Well so did Sony at the time, regardless of what any of us think about the PS3 and the state of Sony today. There was nothing inherently wrong with the PlayStations. They had massive, satisfying game lineups. It's completely logical to prefer those systems.

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The difference between Sony's arrogance and Nintendo's arrogance is that Nintendo has already gone through the rock-bottom phase. Sony has been high rolling ever since they came out. Nintendo's been at both extremes.

All well and good. But it doesn't give Nintendo fanboys any logical license to demonstrate the same arrogance when they have no idea what's going to happen. All they have is the vision of PS3 crashing and burning in their minds.

Sega and Sony fanboys were no better while they watched Nintendo fall. Nintendo fanboys later laughed all over Sega, and now Sony because they think they smell blood. Fanboys are equally dumb, AFAIC. None collectively act any better or smarter than the other.

We're smart.  They're drones? That in itself is fanboy defensiveness. Fanboys from ALL camps claim the other is arrogant, and they all have a point. They share something in common -- righteousness.  

[JonLeung]

Well, the reason why I think "following the group" is mindless is because casual gamers were buying the PS2 simply because everyone else had one, and that it had the most games - without really looking at all consoles' game line-ups.  It's fanboyish to turn a blind eye to the GameCube library just because none of your friends have a GameCube.

That's an example; you could substitute the PS2 and GameCube above for any other (or at least the part about the "turning a blind eye")...but because the PS2 was ahead by so much, I'm certain there were casual gamers who simply bought PS2s without really thinking.  To want a GameCube, you'd pretty much have to want it, in which case you know what games are on it, and that is more hardcore.  You could own a PS2 and NOT be a mindless drone, of course, but I think it's all the casual gamers that make me tend to think a PS2 owner is more likely to be one.

Just my opinion.  

[Dirk Temporo]

Something occurred to me. What's the source on the quotes in the OP? I searched Google and couldn't find anything.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Message boards do not represent the masses.

I AM TEH RIGHTEOUS

[Ceric]

*shrug*
I wanted a Wii before E3 because it was smaller than my Cube and more energy efficient.  Also my Cube is blinky and there are games it won't play that I want to play.  The Wii could have been just a Cube redesign for all it mattered.

Wow I go to respond and there are lots of responses.  I'll admit I'm a Fanboy.  I'll also admit that if my PS2 was blinky and the upgrade was not that much more and smaller I go for it, even though I don't really play it.

[BigJim]

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Originally posted by: JonLeung
Well, the reason why I think "following the group" is mindless is because casual gamers were buying the PS2 simply because everyone else had one, and that it had the most games - without really looking at all consoles' game line-ups.  It's fanboyish to turn a blind eye to the GameCube library just because none of your friends have a GameCube.

That's an example; you could substitute the PS2 and GameCube above for any other (or at least the part about the "turning a blind eye")...but because the PS2 was ahead by so much, I'm certain there were casual gamers who simply bought PS2s without really thinking.  To want a GameCube, you'd pretty much have to want it, in which case you know what games are on it, and that is more hardcore.  You could own a PS2 and NOT be a mindless drone, of course, but I think it's all the casual gamers that make me tend to think a PS2 owner is more likely to be one.

Just my opinion.

Consider this.  If people want a portable, the default choice has been a GameBoy or DS, correct?  Should we consider those buyers mindless drones? I don't think so, IMO. That's too generalizing. Nintendo earned their spot as the defacto choice in that market as far as I'm concerned.

Just as well, the PlayStation's default status was also earned. It didn't take off on faith and marketing alone, despite what so many Nintendo fans think. There was plenty of substance to back them up. The game library spawned more buyers, and more buyers spawned more games. That's what a healthy market is. Would it be fair to consider them drones, but not those GB/DS buyers? Of course not.

Unless you think those portable buyers are drones too, I guess. Then that's another story. Heh. If anyone hates Sony for their success, it's either jealousy for some reason, their own fanboyism, or both.    

I'm not quite directing this at you, just trying to bring a bit more perspective to the thread, since you brought up an interesting point.  

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
Something occurred to me. What's the source on the quotes in the OP? I searched Google and couldn't find anything.

" Here is everything he said, it is from IGN roundtable BTW You have to be an insider member to see this."

-VGrevolution

That would explain why you aren't finding it through Google, as it's membership only content.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Dirk Temporo
Something occurred to me. What's the source on the quotes in the OP? I searched Google and couldn't find anything.

The source is IGN Roundtable for IGN Insiders. I too wasn't quite sure where they came from when I got them but I found it when I looked in the roundtable discussion where most of the IGN editors made comments.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

That being said, at the end of the day, chip problems, delays, and all of that aren't going to matter. The market is extremely forgiving. Delays are quickly forgotten. The only REAL mistake Sony has made, IMHO, is that game consoles aren't "luxury items" as Sony's PR likes to call it. Their pricing is all wrong. Everything else will be forgotten with time.

Also doesn't help matters when their Bluray player may not read some Bluray DVDs, arrogant attitude doesn't help either, blatantly copying Wii with a less functional controller, lack of any innovation whatsoever (goes with the previous point), launching late in Europe (say what you want but letting Xbox 360 and Wii get a large lead is not good business), one of the smallest launches in history in U.S. and Japan (that hurts too because you are losing customers to other systems who can't get a PS3), um lack of any stand out title besides FF and MGS, taking out a 600+ million dollar loan, overly expensive hardware production, lacking true backwards compatibility, and even the chip problems could be a factor because it sounds like it needs ALOT of ironing. But I guess your right, pricing is their only real mistake .

[BigJim]

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But I guess your right, pricing is their only real mistake .

Glad we agree.  I'm not saying those things aren't problematic, but I don't think they're going to matter in a year. The price will be the only real thing that haunts them at the end of the day, until they finally reach $300-$400.

[JonLeung]

Perhaps I've had some bad experiences with Sony fanboys, BigJim.  I can see how a lot of people would buy a PlayStation-branded product (or in your example, Game Boy) but I think my problem comes with people who buy these products and then try and defend them when they don't know what they're talking about.  Perhaps, then, what annoys me is ignorance, which comes in any form.

Like the people who proclaim the PS2 is best, etc., then you ask them what games on other consoles they might like and they say something like "none, because they aren't any" or some other vague answer that makes it sound as if they never even considered the competition.  At all.  It's like they buy a product, and simply don't want even the slightest doubt that they bought something less than the best, and/or that they might be happier with another.  Ignorance!

At which point, even if you considered me a fanboy, you can at least see the logic (whether that's right or wrong in a moral sense) that makes me think there are people more fanboyish and ignorant than I am.

(And forgive me if I sound like I'm getting irritated.  I'm not really.)

I'll admit that as a Nintendo fan I do have bias.  I'm more likely to be hyped up by the mere mention of a new Zelda game before even seeing anything about it.  But I don't think I'd write off a whole console no matter who makes it just because everyone else I know doesn't have one.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

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But I guess your right, pricing is their only real mistake .

Glad we agree.  I'm not saying those things aren't problematic, but I don't think they're going to matter in a year. The price will be the only real thing that haunts them at the end of the day, until they finally reach $300-$400.

I do agree with you there, price is probaly their largest obstacle. They are really flirting with disasator with a 500-600$ price when the Xbox 360 is about equal in graphical horsepower for 300-400$. Oh yeah I forgot one thing a big problem is that many 3rd parties are taking away exclusives or at least considering it.

[Ceric]

I will say this.

My 3 year old Cousin wanted a PS2.  He doesn't now what a videogame really was.  I had my Cube down and so tried to get him to play even a simple game.  Had no interest what so ever he just wanted to run around and play.  I can say that was mindless.  The only reason he wanted one was because the other kids had one.  It was a status symbol.

Now my new little brother, by marriage, is 3 as well.  He's actually been playing Videogames since he was around 2.  He has one of those kids videogames system.  So must of the games are his level and a couple are not, there really for 5th graders and like mathematics and grammer stuff.  He know what a game is he'll actually play the old Playstation he has.  Not well but he now what they are and like.  If he said he wanted a PS2 I wouldn't doubt that he actually want a PS2 for no other reason then getting different games.

I had a coworker who owned a PSP just to own one.  Never used it for games.  Didn't like any of its game.  SHe had two, white and black.  It was bling-bling.  Yet again status.

My brother wanted one at launch because of the games it promised.  After the selection was proven to never improve he got rid of it.

Its mindless if the reason you want a game console is not to play its games but as a status symbol of sort or to attract someone.

If you want a game console to use more than status.  Its not mindless.
Same goes for HD Players if you want HD-DVD or Bluray because you have a hi-def system and you want the quality.  More power to ya.
If you want it to keep with the Jones or be the first on the block.  That's mindless in my mind.  Getting something not for what it does put how it affects your social standing is what I think it means in this context.

Actually that doesn't even cover it.  Maybe it's buying totally uninformed.

You know I'm going to stop.  Like Art we all have are own personal idea about this that we are willing to defend. Also like Art this term have morphed into an untangible thing.

[JonLeung]

No, no, I think Ceric's getting closer to it.

If you have a PS2, you're keeping up with the Joneses.  If you have an Xbox 360, you're a generation above the rest.  It's status.

If you like GameCube games, you probably don't care that other people think it's a kid's purple lunchbox or that it's in third place.  And that shows that status is less important to you; that's more hardcore.

The Wii may be the same...in a world that's obsessed with power, perhaps now more than ever before with the transition to HD, a Wii player can still have fun with his standard-def games.

[GoldenPhoenix]

One thing I really believe is that Sony's fanbase is not nearly as loyal (for the most part) as those from the Nintendo generation. Sony really only has brand name, they sometimes make good games but they are so few and far between it isn't a big advantage. The thing Sony has always had going for it is strong 3rd party support with great exclusive games, if they lose those (or many of them) I can see people turning away from Sony. With Nintendo they have relied mostly on 1st party games so most of us Nintendo fans actually have Nintendo games to back up our loyality.