Topic: Wii is so not hardcoreend

[BigJim]

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Perhaps I've had some bad experiences with Sony fanboys, BigJim

You just need to hang out with more adults.

I've been online since 1988. I'm sure many of us have been around a while... There's nothing anybody can say about other fanboys that hasn't also applied to many Nintendo fanboys. I've seen it all.

Just as an observation, the only big difference I've seen among the fanboys is that because Nintendo integrates more "business" into their PR, they've spawned fanboys that *think* they're analytically smarter. i.e. "Online isn't profitable." "The Super FX chip is better than CDs because CDs only increase storage space." yadda yadda. So now things like the profitability card are dropped whenever convenient. But it's still only PR, and drones to repeat it.

[BigJim]

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If you like GameCube games, you probably don't care that other people think it's a kid's purple lunchbox or that it's in third place. And that shows that status is less important to you; that's more hardcore.

Yet that too me registers as "fanboy" more than the other options. Being hardcore doesn't mean someone is a fanboy, but it's certainly an ingredient.

[JonLeung]

Perhaps.  (That was in response to the post before the previous one.)  That and Nintendo makes many of its own big games...there's more to identify with and enjoy with Nintendo.  Like Mario games, Zelda games, Metroid games, etc.  We enjoy their games and so we love Nintendo.

People who enjoy the PlayStation for Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, and Grand Theft Auto aren't playing Sony games.  They're PlayStation games, whose franchises can and do appear on other platforms.  Yet they cling to their Sony because they somehow think they can bring everything together under one roof, so to speak.

In that sense I think a Nintendo fan(boy)'s love for Nintendo is more "real" than a PlayStation fan's love for Sony, in which case a PlayStation fanboy's ranting sounds more ridiculous since it's not quite as grounded.  Or is it the more definite "love" (or, as some might say, more blinding) that alienates the more casual gamers?  (Again, I find it pointless to own a game system if you don't expect to want to enjoy it and love its games - and somewhere about there is where the line between being a fan and a fanboy ought to be made.)

I'm gonna cut this short since I'm at work...  >_>  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I've seen this thread before.

Oh yeah, 2003 when Nintendo announced they were already designing GameCube's coffin.

TIME TO LOCK THIS UP.

[JonLeung]

^Technically, the Wii means the death (or at least eventual death) of the GameCube, so to say the Wii is the GameCube's coffin is almost not inaccurate.  Or something.

[Ceric]

Pro666 you can't lock this thread without giving us at least the link.

[Strell]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

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The difference between Sony's arrogance and Nintendo's arrogance is that Nintendo has already gone through the rock-bottom phase. Sony has been high rolling ever since they came out. Nintendo's been at both extremes.

All well and good. But it doesn't give Nintendo fanboys any logical license to demonstrate the same arrogance when they have no idea what's going to happen. All they have is the vision of PS3 crashing and burning in their minds.

Ok at that point we're debating Nintendo's arrogance versus their fanboys'.  That's two completely different things.

[wandering]

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the Wii is the GameCube's coffin

So, nintendo is putting the GameCube inside of the Wii? That would make sense. The Wii is, afterall, just a GameCube with a new controller.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I still think that if anything the Sony fanbase is unproven, their past two systems were released with little or no competition. With PSone you had Saturn which Sega handled poorly, so they were really the only true 32 bit option. N64 can about a year later and PSone already had a substantial hold and got exclusives because of it. PS2 won this last generation because they came out a year before the competition and once again relied on being the sole "next-generation" console which kept them afloat even without a good lineup for quite some time.


Not only that but all their consoles were competitively priced, PS3 is not competitively priced but it will not have the advantage of being the first and only choice for next gen gaming. ALot of 3rd parties are realizing this and making their games multisystem, and I'm not sure the Sony fan base is strong enough to sustain it (PSP has shown this fanbase isn't nearly as rabid as Sony likes to believe). This generation Sony cannot distinguish itself unlike the previous two generations and that can spell trouble especially with a similarily powered Xbox 360 and a Wii console that will provide gaming experiences (for better or for worse) that cannot be found elsewhere.

[Ian Sane]

Since we're talking about fanbases now I would group the PS2 userbase into four groups.

1. Hardcore gamers with lots of disposable income that buy all the consoles.

2. People who are fan of a specific game, franchise or developer and buys a console if it has that developer.  In the PS2 case such examples would be GTA, Metal Gear Solid, or Square Enix.  These people may buy more than one console provided what they specifically want is on more than one.

3. Casuals with no real loyality that just buy whoever has the most games.  They don't really know what they want so buying a console with the most stuff is always the safest bet.  A lot of the NES, SNES and Gameboy userbase made up this group.

4. Fans of the console maker themselves.  In the PS2's case this would be people who own Playstations for Sony's games.  This is the group that will stick with the PS3 no matter what.  This type of group is what allowed Nintendo to survive in the console market for the last ten years.

Number 4 and number 1 are the only groups you ever get for sure (unless you really suck like the N-Gage).  You can get 2 with some good third party deals but they're not necessarily a big group (depending on what they're a fan of).  Sony will get some group 2 people with Metal Gear and Tekken and stuff like that.  Group 3 however is the bulk of the Playstation fanbase and Sony can easily lose them.  Group 4 is what keeps you around when group 3 isn't interested.  The problem for Sony is that they pretty much don't have such a group.  Who really buys Playstations for first party games?  Aside from some Gran Turismo fans I can't think of anyone and those people would probably be group 2.

[Deguello]

#1 is impossible nowadays, Ian.  To have this previous generations systems all at their debut costs, amounts to roughly $797.  Now, that is a $1250 dollar investment before tax.  I may be a game enthusiast, but I am not made of money.  And I sort of resent the idea that simply having more money makes somebody "hardcore."  If Paris Hilton bought a PS3, an Xbox 360, and a Wii, would she be a hardcore gamer?

Sony may have made several mistakes, but their assault on the middle-class and poor gamers is definitely going to be their biggest.  IIRc, 70% of the PS2 userbase got theirs after the first price drop.  And that was a price drop from $300 to $250.  Try doubling those amounts and see if there is an actual "price drop" in the mind of the average consumer.  Even worse is if you are a Sony fan and want to support the PS3 and PSP.  That's a pretty tall order, considering that it's not even confirmed that PS3 games won't be more than $60.

It is a shame that both Microsoft and Sony have made me a Nintendo fanboy by default.  I normally did strive to get all the systems and have the most eclectic selection of games.  Now, however, I can't even afford an Xbox 360, so a PS3 is certainly out of the question, so much so that I hate it whenever a game is announced for it.  I mean really, the game may as well just not exist, even if it is the next installment of a series I like or just something interested.

But seriously, the price is the biggest screwup ever.  They basically are throwing away the Walmart crowd, which is one of their strongest supporters, to grab technical enthusiasts who are dwarfed in comparison.  And considering tha launch shortages admitted to by Sony and the ebay madness which will surely accompany it, it might be 2 years before the PS3 is available enough and affordable enough for your average consumer.  And the average consumer is, like Ian said, Sony's biggest user bloc.

And you know, it's funny.  I heard this "System and games aren't hardcore" schtick two years ago about the DS, citing that the PSP will obviously steamroll it.  I'm not sure how that worked out for the PSP, what with having all of those hardcore gamers mulling about it, but I am leaning towards blinding success, especially in Japan, which is hardcore gamer central.

[JonLeung]

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Originally posted by: DeguelloBut seriously, the price is the biggest screwup ever.  They basically are throwing away the Walmart crowd, which is one of their strongest supporters, to grab technical enthusiasts who are dwarfed in comparison.  And considering tha launch shortages admitted to by Sony and the ebay madness which will surely accompany it, it might be 2 years before the PS3 is available enough and affordable enough for your average consumer.  And the average consumer is, like Ian said, Sony's biggest user bloc.

Add the two years of waiting for a decent price drop to the facts that Sony's depency on the PS2 has gone longer than they should've, especially since the PS2 was a year before its competitors, and that the PS3 is now the last to the next-gen race, that the Xbox 360 started this next generation about at least a year earlier, that if you haven't already pre-ordered one you're unlikely to get one this year even if you're going to try to be a PS3 early adopter simply because of shortages, and if you live in Europe, it's another few months more, which is about a year after the originally expected Spring 2006 date...  (And if you count the really "hardcore gamers"' hyping up of the PS3 shortly after even the PS2 came out, well, it's been a long wait.)

With alternatives like the similar-and-cheaper-and-already-available Xbox 360 and the crazily-new-and-different-and-nobody-can-stop-talking-about Wii, can anyone afford the time (waiting for the PS3 to be relatively affordable), or the money (betting on the PS3 to be worth its crazy price tag no matter what)?

Unless you're a game-playing android, it doesn't matter a bit if you're a "hardcore" gamer, casual gamer, rich gamer, poor gamer, non-gamer, Joe Schmoe, Jane Smith, Aunt May or whoever.  You'll have other priorities in life besides games, so when you do get into the games, or anything for that matter, your time and money and effort and faith is going to go into what you think is best.  Even if you can't consider the Wii "hardcore", the price and pick-up-and-play simplicity is going to make it popular.

Does spending more time and money waiting for the PS3 make one "hardcore"?  If so, I don't see a need to be "hardcore" anymore, if I ever was.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Since we're talking about fanbases now I would group the PS2 userbase into four groups.

Hmmm... I would divide the PS2 userbase into two groups:

Those who can afford the PS3...

and those who can't.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[JonLeung]

How about:

Those who have given up on the PS3 now...
And those who will give up on the PS3 later when they see the price for real in a store?  



Okay, that was a fanboysih moment.  I'll admit to that.  There will be PS3 owners.  And, hey, some will even be happy about it.  Good for them.

But enjoy the PS2 in its dying days, Sony.  It's pretty clear that you passed the high point of your success in the games business.  It's only going to go downhill from here.  How quickly or how far depends on how often you alienate or frustrate your potential buyers, and you've done a lot of that already, sorry to say.

[Kairon]

Well, Microsoft seems to be doing fine. I think Sony's going to bleed a lot of its more die-hard fanbase to MS and the 360.

Especially if the 360 can achieve a price drop this holiday season or next.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Mario]

Xbox 360 is selling slower than Xbox, when Xbox had equal competition and 360 has none. I wouldn't consider them fine right now, especially since 360 was supposed to grab more marketshare than Xbox did. We wont truly know though until all the new gen systems are out and the dust has settled.

The only good MS news each week is a Sony stuffup. I'm still waiting for them to capitalise on this.  

[Spak-Spang]

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Originally posted by: JonLeung
How about:

Those who have given up on the PS3 now...
And those who will give up on the PS3 later when they see the price for real in a store?  



Okay, that was a fanboysih moment.  I'll admit to that.  There will be PS3 owners.  And, hey, some will even be happy about it.  Good for them.

But enjoy the PS2 in its dying days, Sony.  It's pretty clear that you passed the high point of your success in the games business.  It's only going to go downhill from here.  How quickly or how far depends on how often you alienate or frustrate your potential buyers, and you've done a lot of that already, sorry to say.

This may have been fanboyish, but there is a point to this statement.

The hardcore gamers already know about the PS3 price and have made up their mind whether it is worth it or not.  Some will say yes, other will say no.

The casual gamers (that make up most of the audience for PS2 and Xbox) have done little to no research on the PS3, and just know it is coming out.  When they see the price in the stores as actual reality, it will dawn on them and hit them hard.  $600!!!  Is it worth it?  What about games?  What about extra controllers?  It is a sinking Money Pit.

Now add in parents buying systems for their children, and you realize that the PS3 is going to have a rather Niche market until the price drops.  

On the other hand, the Wii sounds like it will be affordable enough for almost anyone to pick one up relatively cheaply if they are even half way interested in games.  

And Microsoft I am sure is just happy, they don't have to throw out  a price cut on the 360 to play hardball with Sony yet.  They must be getting pretty close to manufactoring at cost you would think.  Perhaps Summer will be a perfect time to announce a price drop.  (Right when the PS3 actually becomes widely available around the world.)

[Ceric]

Before I forget.  Ian I agree with how you group people just not how you split it.  I think Sony is mostly 2 and 3.  I know a lot of people who only own a PS2 because its has this particular game, for me it was DDR and Monster Rancher.  I really don't know any people who get Sony for Sony games, that don't fall under 2; it's normally a series not that Sony made it.
He never said that you had to have all to be hardcore.  He just stated that the Hardcore are pretty much the only group that could justify to themselves to have all.

In regards to Mario's comment,  thats ok because MS is really ecstatic about the success it is having.  Their pleased with it and in the end of the day that's really the only goal any system has.  Nintendo seems pleased with the Wii at the moment.  Sony well... I don't know.  I just don't know.  It so mixed.

I have a refurbed PS2 because of the price.  I tend to like things new but I couldn't justify $250 for my lesser console (lack of good term to use.)
At the moment I see the PS3 actually having a very short lifecycle before we see its predecessor.  If things keep going how they are.

[JonLeung]

(This is in response to Mario's post three posts up.)

I would guess is that the Xbox 360 came sooner than it should, but more importantly that a lot of people were/are holding out for Sony's and Nintendo's next consoles.  You can't truly say it has no competitors when consumers are aware of future competitors and are willing to wait for them to show up.

And it's not like when we hit a new generation of consoles that the "previous" one instantly and totally dies.

But you're right, I'm sure Microsoft would want to do better, and yet they haven't truly capitalized much on Sony's blunders.  

[Spak-Spang]

Mario: Xbox 360 is suffering from price, and bad press recently.  But furthermore, there hasn't been that single killer title you must own for the system yet.  People are saying it may becoming this Holiday Season...but I have a feeling the masses are literally waiting for Halo 3 and a price drop.  As I mentioned early I expect both of those this Summer.  

[Kairon]

Yeah, it is quite shocking to look at the X360 and wonder whether it's even surpassed 5 million units sold through worldwide yet....

But, it may have a chance to hold the lead on the PS3 for a month or two in Japan! /omg

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[IceCold]

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Today it's a bit ironic to see Nintendo fanboys dishing it out against Sony, calling out arrogance and karma. I mean, Nintendo's past speaks for itself. Karma smacked their arrogance right upside the face. For some Nintendo fanboys to be so arrogant as to claim the PS3 is already dead? Stupid. Nintendo's the underdog with something to prove here. It hasn't even BEGUN yet.

There is a big difference here.. Even during the 64 era, Nintendo continued to innovate and push gaming forward. They invented the analogue stick and showed everyone how 3D games were done, busting out several timeless games during that time. Super Mario 64, with the analogue stick, was the blueprint that the industry as a whole followed, and it was made by Nintendo. Sony in present time, on the other hand; what exactly are they doing to push games forward? Nothing at all. They add this shoehorned motion functionality to their controller, clearly as a reactionary move. Worse, they are moving the focus away from games with all this multimedia stuff. And to top it off, they are helping to move the industry dangerously close to another crash. Because of high development costs (having to do in large part with their HD graphics push) there is little innovation, there are generic and similar games for publishers wanting to play it safe, the smaller developers are getting squeezed out because of the cost, etc, etc.. Add in the whole multimedia/Blu-Ray fiasco and the ridiculous price, and you have a recipe for disaster.. It would only be a matter of time before the saturation is too much if the industry continues where it's headed.

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The game library spawned more buyers, and more buyers spawned more games.

I read once that during the NES era, the penetration of video games in North America was 33% of households. Currently, it is at 32%. A percentage point doesn't sound like much, but when there are millions of households involved, it is a hell of a lot. More importantly, it shows that Sony really didn't expand the market much, or make it mainstream. I will admit that their marketing was very aggressive and well done, which helped them a lot. But they did not reach out to new audiences nearly as much as many people think. They certainly couldn't have been able to do what they had done if it weren't for what Nintendo had done..    

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Mario: Xbox 360 is suffering from price, and bad press recently.  But furthermore, there hasn't been that single killer title you must own for the system yet.  People are saying it may becoming this Holiday Season...but I have a feeling the masses are literally waiting for Halo 3 and a price drop.  As I mentioned early I expect both of those this Summer.

Hey now I am quite happy with my Xbox 360, I have Dead Rising, PGR3 and Madden 2007 for it . In regards to Xbox 360 not getting the market penetration it may have expected, I really think that is due to the price more than anything, 400$ is pushing it (Lets face it not many are buying the core edition).

[ThePerm]

ign pulls this crap too much, i just read the interview with a designer on Day of Disaster and all they asked about was how its adult oriented..and it ocmpletely wasted the interview.

there isa difference between adult oriented and hardcore, and if asking someone through a translator..it will totally confuse the devloper.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: ThePerm
ign pulls this crap too much, i just read the interview with a designer on Day of Disaster and all they asked about was how its adult oriented..and it ocmpletely wasted the interview.

there is a difference between adult oriented and hardcore, and if asking someone through a translator..it will totally confuse the devloper.

I'd actually say that the Disaster question was meant to have the opposite effect, prove that the Wii will have games like this. Show how the I LOVE HALO 2 image is now totally irrelevant. And, to be fair, Nintendo does have fewer adult games.

Matt is like us all in that he expects the best of Nintendo. He's unpopular because he calls them out on a lot of stuff. But he doesn't do it because he's annoyed at them (well, he is, but so are most people in those cases) but because he does have a wide audience and sometimes he can start something that makes Nintendo listen. His recent push to have all games 16x9 and progressive scan has had at least one developer listen.

Matt is probably the best person to have on your side at IGN. He's a better journalist at most and he doesn't go around making comments about any system like the one that started this thread. Don't think for a second he doens't love Nintendo.