Topic: Yeah, Halo 3's been announced.

[Adrock]

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At least MP3 doesn't have a final level that the reviewers even admitted was flat out terrible and something they cringe at ever doing again.

I'll refrain from getting into this whole Halo argument since I'm not a fan of the series or FPS in general, but I can't let you make that comparison without saying something, GP. MP3's final level was flat-out terrible. What was the point of getting all those upgrades........ and you couldn't even save when you got there.......

[Bill Aurion]

Terrible more like awesome...Dur, spoilers...And the more energy tanks you collect, the longer you have before you corrupt...

[that Baby guy]

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Originally posted by: bustin98
There's something to be said here. If a game is released and gains praise, then the sequel is released and makes strides above the original, could it be that the original was really gimped and we just didn't realize it?

I have a heck of a time going back to the original Halo, mainly due to the controls. Timing is off, no dual weilding, melee attack is different, gernades are different, and the way enemies spawn is a cop-out (you'll approach an area with no enemies, then suddenly they are all over the place). Its not un-playable, just not as fun as it was originally.

Apply that to Metroid Prime. Its not exactly fair to compare the Wii version, but between the first and second, you can go back and forth without any trouble. Maybe because it was already as good as it gets?? Gameplay wise, I have trouble with Prime 2, but I think almost everyone hated switching from light side to dark side.

From a certain point of view, some games need to have elements grow beyond the original, others don't.

Brilliant observation.  Seriously.  I think it goes to show that if a game that young has already aged, maybe there wasn't much there initially.  It's a game that would have been tremendous regardless of how good it actually was.

This Halo 3 stuff makes me sick.  Heck, even The Gainesville Sun called them out in a non-confrontational kind of way.  They said it was a decent game, but not nearly the best on the front page today, which is a lot, coming from non-gaming media.  It's sad that they can see that, but few others can.

[vudu]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
At least MP3 doesn't have a final level that the reviewers even admitted was flat out terrible and something they cringe at ever doing again.

Just jumping in here to point out that lots of reviewers seem to have a big problem with the "fetch quests" at the end of Wind Waker and Echos.  However, both are terrific games according to most reviews I've seen.

/vudu troll

[Svevan]

Glad to see we're all in top form today.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Svevan
Well, I don't think so at all. For gameplay mechanics (grenade types, dual-wielding), graphics, level design, multiplayer options, Live options, and everything else, 2 really outpaced 1. 3's jump is less substantial, but we have to consider all the new weapons, vehicles, levels, new control scheme, the X-Button items, and again with more shlt to do on Live and in LAN, and of course the graphics. It's a far cry from the Madden series, since the first Halo came out in 01, and the second came out in 04. That's the exact same frequency as the Metroid Prime games, and (oh I'm gonna piss someone off) Halo has shown much more advancement within its own formula than Metroid Prime ever did.

The Metroid Prime series has always been unique in gameplay to about any game out there, Halo 1-3 has been a poor man’s PC First Person Shooter (which is why it is always ripped when it is ported to PC). In fact your opinion completely falls apart because the Halo series has had a myriad of far superior FPS games to build off of, while the Prime series doesn't have the convenience of ripping off features left and right since it is a gameplay design that really is its own unique creation and is NOT an uninspired FPS whose artistic merit is terribly generic, where gameplay mechanics are ripped right from far better games on the PC (though dumbed down for the gamepad), or being outdated instantly by more complete first person experiences on, once again, the PC.

At least MP3 doesn't have a final level that the reviewers even admitted was flat out terrible and something they cringe at ever doing again. You seem like a walking contradiction sometimes Evan, you have always been this RAW RAW for independent films and BOOOO to Big Budget movies, yet in gaming you are defending perhaps gaming own monster budget "cool" movie. Yet you criticize Bioshock which actually has a lot of artistic merit and does a heck of a lot more in its single player campaign then the Halo series has ever done, which has been basically Serious Sam with a bit more polish. Not to mention the fact that I don't think it is a ringing endorsement for the Halo series that you don't think you can go back to the previous games. If a series is truly a great series you should find value in each game because it is special. As much as I like Madden I wouldn't call it a great series because I never want to play a previous installment.

You're taking all my words out of context. I support big-budget films if they're good. Quality is more important than hype. I never attempted to compare Halo to MP3 in a broad sense - certainly one has a higher level of game design, but both have similar levels of "fun" content, in two very different ways. You make it seem as though I'm questioning the basic design of MP3, which I'm not. I am merely saying that Halo, compared across three games, has done a ton of new things and refined itself close to perfection. Metroid Prime has not done that, but that doesn't make it a bad game. Also, greater difficulty in game design does not make a game automatically good. The accomplishment of Retro should be honored, but being critical of Halo's advancements while heaping praise on MP3's repetitions is the height of dishonesty and hypocrisy.

Throwing in and manipulating my BioShock comments (which you admitted were incomplete; I never criticized the art style) is a straw man argument if ever there was one.  And have you ever played Serious Sam (I know you have, rhetorical question)? Because Halo is so much more fun than Serious Sam I don't even have to say why. I don't know how anyone could take anything you've said above seriously. Moving on.

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Uh oh, Svevan's cover has been blown!

(Laugho, trying to compare Halo's single-player campaign to the Prime series results in Halo slaughter...)

I never said that. I said advancement within the formula. I got deja vu playing MP3 way more than I did playing Halo 3. I have never called Halo 3 a better single player game than MP3. I am merely speaking of the formula. And Bungie has done more to advance the Halo formula than Retro has done to advance the MP3 formula. This does not mean that Retro and Bungie started with the same level of "innovation" (an unquantifiable detail) or "originality" (which is not the mark of a good game). Retro made an amazing play system with Metroid Prime. And then they made two more games with a few upgrades and new worlds. The overall gameplay of Metroid Prime is more inspired, for sure. Bungie's game is more traditional, but the first Halo DID add lots of features to first person shooters, making console FPS gaming viable again, and introducing multiplayer to the world in a way unheard of since Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

And the two games are so different that comparing them is retarded. The only reason I compared them is because Pro thought it necessary to call Halo the Madden of space marine games, a spurious and flat out incorrect claim. I was wrong about something else: Metroid Prime came out in 2002, which means the MP games have been churned out faster than the Halo games. I stand by my previous statement: for advancements within the playing formula, Halo has been tweaking weapon balance (including dual wielding), vehicles, maps, control scheme, HUD layout, multiplay options, and more. Metroid Prime still has morph ball areas, still has ice weapons, still has the same old puzzles I've been playing for years. So what? Repetition isn't bad; Nintendo gamers have a double standard when it comes to Halo.  

edit: Hating a game because of its hype is like hating a movie because of its audience. And who's better at hyping their three main franchises than Nintendo?

[vudu]

I hate Titanic because of its audience.  Does that make me a bad person?

[Svevan]

You can hate Titanic for a lot of reasons - its 13 year old female audience is just one of them.

[ShyGuy]

I donno, I don't really consider the online aspects to be part of the game's formula. They seem as extrinsic as the menu system of a game, and considering how you dismissed MP3's new control scheme, I was hoping you would offer something more substantial.

Don't get me wrong I think Halo's multiplayer is very good, and it hits that magical sweetspot that games like Counter-Strike and GoldenEye did in the past.

To summarize,

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I love the Halo series as much as anyone, but the series hasn't really changed at all since the first one, save for the different online scheme in the second.

fix'd

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Svevan
The overall gameplay of Metroid Prime is more inspired, for sure. Bungie's game is more traditional, but the first Halo DID add lots of features to first person shooters, making console FPS gaming viable again, and introducing multiplayer to the world in a way unheard of since Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

Is it so hard to find praise for Halo 3 that you have to make up crap qualifications like that?  "It's the first to do X since the last time someone did X!"

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And the two games are so different that comparing them is retarded. The only reason I compared them is because Pro thought it necessary to call Halo the Madden of space marine games, a spurious and flat out incorrect claim.

Wait.  You said something "retarded" because Pro said something entirely unrelated?

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Metroid Prime still has morph ball areas, still has ice weapons, still has the same old puzzles I've been playing for years. So what? Repetition isn't bad; Nintendo gamers have a double standard when it comes to Halo.

A lot of the complaints in this thread have been about the double standard reviewers apply to Metroid Prime 3 and Halo 3, wherein Halo 3 is rated highly in spite of its similarity to earlier games while Metroid Prime 3 is derided for the same thing.  How did you manage to take people asking for equal treatment and twist it around into Nintendo fans being the ones with the double standard?

You're just doing this because you like to argue, aren't you?  

[Svevan]

I don't think you're being very nice, PartyBear.  

I suppose my statement is that if the reviews are being hypocritical about repetition of formula in MP3, Nintendo fans need to not match that hypocrisy in their own comments about Halo. How's that?

[ShyGuy]

Evan is just being an intellectual contrarian. hipster

[Kairon]

I agree with Svevan. Zelda: TP was also more of a refinement than an advance.

[ShyGuy]

Prime 3 had a large advancement, the control scheme. Like it or not, this changes what you do in the game, and how the players experiences the formula in a big way. Halo 3 simply rearranges what was already there. I guess saying that makes me a hypocrite.  

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Svevan
I don't think you're being very nice, PartyBear.

I'm sorry you read it that way.  I just don't find your arguments compelling, and it's not because I have anything against Halo.  I find the excitement over it annoying, but I respect Bungie's talent.

[IceCold]

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Originally posted by: PartyBear

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Originally posted by: SvevanThe overall gameplay of Metroid Prime is more inspired, for sure. Bungie's game is more traditional, but the first Halo DID add lots of features to first person shooters, making console FPS gaming viable again, and introducing multiplayer to the world in a way unheard of since Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

Is it so hard to find praise for Halo 3 that you have to make up crap qualifications like that?  "It's the first to do X since the last time someone did X!"

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And the two games are so different that comparing them is retarded. The only reason I compared them is because Pro thought it necessary to call Halo the Madden of space marine games, a spurious and flat out incorrect claim.

Wait.  You said something "retarded" because Pro said something entirely unrelated?

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Metroid Prime still has morph ball areas, still has ice weapons, still has the same old puzzles I've been playing for years. So what? Repetition isn't bad; Nintendo gamers have a double standard when it comes to Halo.

A lot of the complaints in this thread have been about the double standard reviewers apply to Metroid Prime 3 and Halo 3, wherein Halo 3 is rated highly in spite of its similarity to earlier games while Metroid Prime 3 is derided for the same thing.  How did you manage to take people asking for equal treatment and twist it around into Nintendo fans being the ones with the double standard?

You're just doing this because you like to argue, aren't you?

Post of the year. I'm still laughing at the "first to do X since the last time someone did X" comment

[Svevan]

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Prime 3 had a large advancement, the control scheme. Like it or not, this changes what you do in the game, and how the players experiences the formula in a big way. Halo 3 simply rearranges what was already there. I guess saying that makes me a hypocrite.

I won't deny MP3's control refinements, and you're making a good point, Shy, that I ignored. I just found the gameplay to be more of the same (which is to say, it was excellent).

[Svevan]

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Originally posted by: IceCold

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Originally posted by: PartyBear

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Originally posted by: SvevanThe overall gameplay of Metroid Prime is more inspired, for sure. Bungie's game is more traditional, but the first Halo DID add lots of features to first person shooters, making console FPS gaming viable again, and introducing multiplayer to the world in a way unheard of since Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

Is it so hard to find praise for Halo 3 that you have to make up crap qualifications like that?  "It's the first to do X since the last time someone did X!"

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And the two games are so different that comparing them is retarded. The only reason I compared them is because Pro thought it necessary to call Halo the Madden of space marine games, a spurious and flat out incorrect claim.

Wait.  You said something "retarded" because Pro said something entirely unrelated?

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Metroid Prime still has morph ball areas, still has ice weapons, still has the same old puzzles I've been playing for years. So what? Repetition isn't bad; Nintendo gamers have a double standard when it comes to Halo.

A lot of the complaints in this thread have been about the double standard reviewers apply to Metroid Prime 3 and Halo 3, wherein Halo 3 is rated highly in spite of its similarity to earlier games while Metroid Prime 3 is derided for the same thing.  How did you manage to take people asking for equal treatment and twist it around into Nintendo fans being the ones with the double standard?

You're just doing this because you like to argue, aren't you?

Post of the year. I'm still laughing at the "first to do X since the last time someone did X" comment

I don't think that's fair. Could you go back to Perfect Dark multiplayer today? I have, and it's still fun, but the refinements of Halo are better. Goldeneye and PD created a new wave of FPS multiplayer on consoles. Halo took it a step further. They didn't do "the same thing," they just reinvigorated a realm of gaming that got lost by adding a bunch of cool stuff and making it fun again.

I don't want to play the martyr, nor do I believe everyone's being unfair. I just hate hearing fanboyish comments about how terrible Halo is. If it needs to be knocked off a pedestal, so do many of Nintendo's beloved franchises.

[UERD]

I want to know how you can give a 9.5/10 to a game and then say that the last part of the campaign was so bad that you would not be willing to play through it ever again. Either the problem doesn't exist (in which case the reviewer is a liar), or the reviewer contradicts himself and is a hypocrite.

Also, reviewers are not known to play games in-depth (which is why their RTS reviews are nearly useless, for example it takes months of online play before you can figure out whether a game is unbalanced or not). I wonder how many MP3 reviewers set aiming mode to 'Advanced, Free Lock-On' when they played the game, and how that would have affected their perception of the game if they had.

I'm not saying that Halo 3 is a bad game. I did say that I hated dual-analog FPSes. Does that mean I hate Halo? Think about that carefully. Halo X on the PC and Halo X on the XBox (360) are superficially the same game. But when you have two radically different input methods, a core part of the game, can you still call them the same game? For me (and a lot of other people), Halo or any other shooter is unplayable on a console. But I tried Halo 1 on PC a long time ago and it was not too bad. And it will be interesting to play through 2 and 3 once I get a new computer and MS releases the latter for the PC.

[IceCold]

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I don't think that's fair. Could you go back to Perfect Dark multiplayer today? I have, and it's still fun, but the refinements of Halo are better. Goldeneye and PD created a new wave of FPS multiplayer on consoles. Halo took it a step further.

I have no problem agreeing with that, and I don't doubt the game is fun, either. But every game should technically improve on others and add modes and be more playable than past ones. They have the advantage of hindsight at the expense of those past games, which obviously helps them avoid previous mistakes. Halo did this, but that doesn't really make it special.

Plus there are just so many better FPSes out there, even console ones (TimeSplitters).  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Throwing in and manipulating my BioShock comments (which you admitted were incomplete; I never criticized the art style) is a straw man argument if ever there was one. And have you ever played Serious Sam (I know you have, rhetorical question)? Because Halo is so much more fun than Serious Sam I don't even have to say why. I don't know how anyone could take anything you've said above seriously. Moving on.

Perfect way to avoid any of the other points I made, such as Halo having a myriad of other games to build off of. And in regards to Serious Sam, have you even played the Halo FLOOD levels? If that isn't Serious Same like gameplay I don't what is. Even in regards to Bioshock, it has more gameplay variety than any of the Halo's have ever had, which have been basically run and shoot, throw some grenades, and watch your retarded allies get killed. Halo at its heart is a full blown run n gun shooter that throws tons of enemies at you, I'm sorry but that is Serious Sam's formula (although Serious Sam at least had some good boss fights here and there, which Halo has never had) regardless if you want to shove your head in the ground and pretend it isn't. Is Halo a far better game than SS? Yes it is, but the basic core gameplay follows that formula.

Let me be flat out blunt here, I feel if people are so in love with Halo, like you are Evan, that they are IGNORANT, yes you like that term so I'll use it. They obviously haven't played far better and more complete experiences elsewhere, and so are impressed by a dumbed down, mainstream FPS, who's biggest "advancement" in Halo 3 is a video replay feature and a barebones level designer.  What I want to know is how my PC FPS shooters have you played?  You were willing to harpoon Mashiro for his ignorance by not playing Killer7, so I want to know what your experience is, because frankly that is what I'm going off of. I've been playing FPS games since Wolfenstein 3D, and I think if anyone should know what is or is not a unique FPS experience, it would be myself.  

[Kairon]

Halo doesn't deserve to be loved?

Gee, you're real Harsh GP. It's almost Like Halo is another Alien Syndrome for you.

[Svevan]

I don't even have to rebut GP's comments sometimes, she does it herself.

P.S. the video replay is not just video, it's interactive and you can fly the camera anywhere. Not a huge deal, but more fun than you want to paint it. Your dismissal of Forge is funny, but I can't rebut since I haven't played much of it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Svevan

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I don't want to play the martyr, nor do I believe everyone's being unfair. I just hate hearing fanboyish comments about how terrible Halo is. If it needs to be knocked off a pedestal, so do many of Nintendo's beloved franchises.

Haha, that has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've heard you say. Many of Nintendo's games (at least the bigger franchises) have not been accurately replicated nor SURPASSED by other games, even when they first came out. For someone that purports to be so logical, your defense of Halo is quite lacking, especially defending it against its competition. Nintendo's franchises have revolutionized gaming, if you deny that, well I can't do anything but laugh. What has Halo really revolutionized? Rechargeable shields? Give me a break, please before you make such a ridiculous statement think about what your saying.  In fact lets go down the list of Nintendo franchises and what they have done, that should be fun.

Mario:
-Basically revolutionized 2D gaming
-Once again revolutionized 3D gaming
-Spin-offs like Mario Party and Mario Kart even created brand new genres
-Smash Brothers gave a new twist on fighting games

Zelda:
-Basically created the exploration action/adventure genre
-Once again showed what could be done with 3D
-Took cel shading in a new direction

Metroid:
-Once again basically created the genre that spawned games like Symphony of the Night
-A revolutionary use of First Person perspective, mixed with puzzle solving, exploration, and yes even some brilliant devices such as the morph ball which added a new layer to gaming

Kirby:
-Not nearly as impactful as the others, but provided an interesting twist on the platformer genre with the ability to gain abilities

Star Fox:
-Perhaps one of the most repetitive series in recent years, but even the first two games helped set up on-rails shooters.


Ok that is all the games I wish to go over now. Let's look at Halo and see how it revolutionized or added to gaming or the FPS genre in general:

-Rechargeable shield
-Gernade button
-Dual Analog control? (Not even sure if it was the first)

Really rechargeable shields is the only thing that impacted PC gaming much (and IMO for the worse) though it could have been developed the same time as Call of Duty 1, so even that may not be true. So yeah, once again Nintendo's biggest franchises deserve their spot for what they have done for gaming. What has Halo really done for the FPS genre? That's right, not a whole heck of a lot. Even GTA which I have been critical of did quite a bit for gaming, at least when it comes to kicking off a new genre. Halo has really done nothing for gaming, at least from a creative or inspiring sense. So once again, yes I think the series is overrated. Heck even Goldeneye did more for FPS than Halo. On the flip side, I will say that the replay feature is an impressive technical feet but I wouldn't call it anything other than "cool" because it has been done so many times in the past, maybe not exactly the same way but close enough. Need to play around a bit more with the Forge but it seems to be quite barebones, and dumbed down for the consoles.

Call me a hypocrite if you want, but I am willing to give leniency to Nintendo's franchises because their formulas cannot be improved much at all, while on the flip side Halo is so far behind the times, that they have alot to borrow (steal) from games that have actually made a difference, they did it with Halo 1 and they are still doing it with Halo 3. It is far easier to improve on something that is gimped comparatively, but it is much harder to improve on something that is already excellent, in fact you are at a bigger disadvantage to KEEP it that way. Any brainless developer can throw in a video replay feature or add a barebones editor, it is the great developers that can create excellent gameplay designs that impact gaming for years to come.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Svevan
I don't even have to rebut GP's comments sometimes, she does it herself.

P.S. the video replay is not just video, it's interactive and you can fly the camera anywhere. Not a huge deal, but more fun than you want to paint it. Your dismissal of Forge is funny, but I can't rebut since I haven't played much of it.

Wow Evan, brilliant stuff there. Have you played Madden before? You can do the same thing. My point is that those things are nothing new whatsoever, espeically a level editor which the PC has had for years. Also this is a bit unrelated, but I'm surprised you have praised the visuals because I've heard nothing about whining about them from the majority of Halo's user base (I don't really agree but oh well).

Oh well though, maybe I should just post this "I don't even have to rebut Evan's comments, he contradicts himself". That is the intellectual way to go, right?

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I don't want to play the martyr, nor do I believe everyone's being unfair. I just hate hearing fanboyish comments about how terrible Halo is. If it needs to be knocked off a pedestal, so do many of Nintendo's beloved franchises.

This is a strawman argument if I've ever heard of one, I have no doubt some here think Halo is terrible but I am not one of them. Saying something is overhyped and gets more praise then it deserves is not saying I hate it. If I hate it would I have gotten the Legendary Edition? I think the Halo games are fun games, but at the same time don't compare to better FPS experiences elsewhere. Let me think of an example of a game I thought was fun but wasn't revolutionary. Um, well a quick one would be the Madden series, I love each years Madden game, but I think the hype is undeserved, granted this is not the best example since there aren't really any "better" games out there. I can't even really put the GTA games in as comparison because there really aren't any better sandbox style games. Regardless just because something may be alot of fun (along with hyped) but isn't revolutionary or does anything new, does not make it a "terrible" game, but on the flip side it doesn't make it amazing either if there are better experiences in the genre.

[ShyGuy]

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Originally posted by: Svevan

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Prime 3 had a large advancement, the control scheme. Like it or not, this changes what you do in the game, and how the players experiences the formula in a big way. Halo 3 simply rearranges what was already there. I guess saying that makes me a hypocrite.

I won't deny MP3's control refinements, and you're making a good point, Shy, that I ignored. I just found the gameplay to be more of the same (which is to say, it was excellent).

I don't care what Golden Phoenix says about you Evan, you're a gentleman and a scholar.