Author Topic: Lost  (Read 158430 times)

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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: Lost
« Reply #200 on: February 03, 2010, 03:56:56 PM »
Are you forgetting about Juliette dying just a few minutes prior?  She was sort of a main character.

Fair enough, but I guess I didn't really react to that because it's been known for ages that Elizabeth Mitchell had been signed onto another show.

But yeah, that's a fair point.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Lost
« Reply #201 on: February 03, 2010, 04:01:49 PM »
Fair enough, but I guess I didn't really react to that because it's been known for ages that Elizabeth Mitchell had been signed onto another show.
This is why I'm happy I don't pay attention to stuff like that.  It lessens the chances of me figuring out anything before "I'm supposed to".

Granted, I was a little ticked off they brought her back from the dead because I couldn't understand how anyone could survive that fall.  But I suppose it worked out well enough in the end.
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Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #202 on: February 04, 2010, 08:34:53 AM »
So the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced of...


The Man in Black/Smoke Monster/Fake Locke is the "good" guy.  When you take a look at their actions, as well as the actions of the people that follow them, a lot of things don't add up.

I'll try to do this chronologically:
(Quote tags don't mix inside spoiler tags)
"JACOB: I take it you're here because of the ship.
ENEMY: I am. How did they find the Island?
JACOB: You'll have to ask them when they get here.
ENEMY: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?
JACOB: You are wrong.
ENEMY: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
ENEMY: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?
JACOB: Yes.
ENEMY: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.
JACOB: Well, when you do, I'll be right here."

Clearly, the Others are hostile to anyone from off the island they don't bring in themselves...  Remember the 1950's jump?  While the time-traveling Losties could prove they weren't in clear contention with the Others, they were very aggressive toward a small group of people.  Yes, a nuke had just been brought to the island by a different group, but clearly, the Losties weren't in uniform, and were barely armed, despite being formidable.

Then we've got the Dharma Initiative, the Dharma people weren't exactly "Bad" people, were they?  Why would the Others go and kill them, why would they be so hostile?  If Jacob believes everything that happens before the end is progress, why not do something to keep from that genocide from occurring? But what happens?  The Others kill the people of the Dharma initiative not secretly siding with them, and use everything they brought to the island.  Why would they do that?  There was no real reason of which we're aware.

Take a look at Sawyer:  Parents dead, he shows up at the funeral.  Why wait until then?  For one matter, he could've spoken to him, and tried to teach him revenge isn't the answer.  He could've found him a counselor, or even adopted Sawyer, or find him foster parents.  He could have done any number of things to help Sawyer lead a more fulfilling life.  What does he do?  He gives Sawyer a pen to write his letter, the letter he carries on him until Sawyer finally kills the con-man that caused his troubles.

Flash to Kate, as a child.  She steals a lunch box she finds she wants, and as soon as she's caught, Jacob appears and bails her out of it.  He tells her not to steal anymore, and it seems like he did something good, right?  Except we know Kate's a convict, and in fact, a murderer, once she grows up.  What if Kate had been caught?  Is it conceivable she'd have learned her lesson, essentially to obey the law, and not become the criminal she was that ruined her life?

I'm not going to lie and say Jacob did something overtly wrong to Jack, when Jack was performing his first surgery.  It's possible, though, that Jacob's help and words ("Maybe it just needed a little push.") might have encouraged Jack to live in his father's shadow, or something similar, and we know Jack's life as a surgeon and even as a family man, was tormented by the position his father was in.

Jin and Sun have a difficult scenario to point out.  I suppose the best I can say is that he wished them his best, but really, up until the point where they bonded with people on the island, which later split them apart, they grew increasingly miserable together.  Jacob's best wishes really weren't worth all that much.  This is another scratch, in my opinion.

And then there's Locke:  What has Jacob done for Locke?  He's sat on a bench when Locke was pushed out of a window, right?  Then, when Locke was on the ground, seemingly dead, Jacob walks up, says he's sorry it happened to him, and walks away.  How disingenuous is that?  He let the man fall out of the building, knowing it would happen, and then apologized for it.  Why allow it to happen, exactly?  A lot of people believe Jacob brought Locke back to life, but had he, why not fix some of the damage done in such a way that Locke would be able to walk?  After all, it can't be that hard, Locke walks immediately upon reaching the island, right?  Things don't add up, at this point, I'd say.

A lot of people seem to believe Jacob can heal people.  We see him visit Ilana, a new character, and asking for her help.  She's in what is essentially a bodycast, and yet, he doesn't heal her.  Why not?  Again, I don't believe he has any sort of healing ability, and instead, we've misconstrued what we know about Jacob.

Later, we see him two more times.  The first is with Sayid and Nadia.  Sayid, who has finally found the woman he loves, after spending much of his adult life searching for her, loses her at this time.  While Sayid and Jacob are talking about directions, Nadia pauses, and turns toward Sayid, and is sequentially hit by a car, which kills her.  She had to turn to speak to Sayid because of Jacob.  It's possible Jacob intentionally killed Nadia, which drove Sayid to murder several people out of anger and frustration.

Finally, we see him with Hurley, where it's clear, for once, he doesn't do something to hurt someone.  He gives Hurley a guitar case, and suggests that Hurley has a gift, as he see and speak with the dead.  This, and possibly the meeting with Jack, are the two "good" things Jacob has done, opposed to the much worse events he's caused.

Oh, and I neglected the time the Oceanic survivors spent on the island.
The Others are very hostile to the survivors of the crash that aren't on specific lists.  Why?  Why cause so many problems?  Couldn't they be helpful, and assist survival to the survivors?  I know that Ben was calling the shots, yes, but we also know Jacob, or at least the Jacob that Richard follows, could have issued some sort of command to Richard to change things.  Instead, we see kidnapping and killing.  We see Locke lead to kill his father, the con man Sawyer had been after.  We see Jacob and the Others do virtually nothing when the "bad" people on the freighter attempt to kill everyone.  We see someone or something toy with Locke, Claire, and Hurley in "Jacob's Cabin," but we know there's no telling when the circle of ash was broken, so we can't tell if it was Jacob or the "Smoke Monster" causing those illusions.

Essentially, my point is that we've seen very little about Jacob and the MiB.  While we know the MiB doesn't like people and wants to kill Jacob, we know that Jacob knows a good deal about things that happened before they happened, and potentially made them worse.  We believe Jacob can heal because of Locke and Rose, but really, as far as we know, it really was just the island that healed them, isn't it?  We know of the springs, but again, they worked after Jacob was dead, and possibly work better than before.  We know he wears white, while the other man wears black, but are we really basing things on the colors people wear?  They signify opposition, but not sides.  When people play backgammon, does the white side represent the "good" person?  Not necessarily.

And so I pose that Jacob has done very little to show he's one of the "good guys."  We know he works with Ilana, and her group claimed to be the good guys, but Frank Lapidus was quick to note that most of the people who make such claims don't end up substantiating said claims.

So that leaves us with the Man In Black.  We know the Smoke Monster kills, plain and simple.  We see it happen from the first episode on.  It's clear we don't know why, but we know it does.  We know the MiB and the Smoke Monster are almost certainly the same entity, as well.  However, we also know that the smoke monster defended everyone at "New Otherton" from the invaders from the freighter, too.  We're led to believe that Christian Sheppard is either a apparition of the Smoke Monster, or at least in league with it, and we know Christian helped Michael stop the people on the freighter meant to kill people on the island, as well.  There's a few other things that have happened the Smoke Monster is responsible for, but I get the feeling this is long enough.  I'll add that the MiB doesn't like people because they do things we, as the audience consider are wrong, and say that we've never seen anything that actually states the goals of either Jacob or the MiB before we learned he "wants to go home."  So, essentially, we're siding with Jacob because Ben and Richard have said to side with Jacob, and he's less overt when he causes death or anguish.  We're siding against the MiB/Smoke Monster because we plainly see what he does, even though we have seen him do some relative good.

And so, this all said, I think there'll be a twist, where we find Jacob has had some seriously ill intent behind his actions.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #203 on: February 04, 2010, 12:31:53 PM »
Response to thatguy:
I don't know that Jacob is a bad guy, but I think he may be just a guy and not a deity. Then again, Lost is very philosophical and maybe the creators of the show are trying to answer the question "why do bad things happen to good people?" Jacob has the power to stop the bad things but doesn't. There answer to this seems to be or include free will (remember what Jacob said to Ben before Ben killed him)

New theory about the ending of the show (speculation)
The Losties on the island fight against the Smoke Monster and fail, all dying. When they die, they merge with there LA X selves and must reunite and travel back to the island to save the world from the Smoke Monster. Just a theory

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #204 on: February 04, 2010, 09:59:23 PM »
Except Jacob didn't give anyone he touched the *choice* of not going to the island.  Not so far, at least.  While I believe someone will get to choose between the timelines, there's no evidence Jacob will be responsible for it.  Not to mention the whole "What about you, Ben?" response.  Jacob wanted Ben to kill him there, and manipulated him into doing it, plain and simple.  Fake Locke was at least open to Ben about what he was meant to do to Jacob, while Jacob toyed with Ben's emotions to make sure it happened.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #205 on: February 05, 2010, 11:57:21 AM »
New theory
Charlie's hair is short in LA X, just like it is short when Hurley saw him after he died at the start of the fourth season. What if Hurley doesn't see dead people per se, but people from the the LA X dimension?

Offline Halbred

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Re: Lost
« Reply #206 on: February 05, 2010, 12:53:46 PM »
Maybe being dead is the same as being in the LAX dimension?
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Offline vudu

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Re: Lost
« Reply #207 on: February 05, 2010, 01:45:50 PM »
Or maybe Dominic Monaghan's hair is just short right now and it wasn't worth it for him to change his hair just for a cameo.  It's the same reason why we didn't see Shannon, Michael, Walt, or any of the passengers from the rear end of the plane--it just didn't matter that much.

You're reading too much into this stuff.
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Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Lost
« Reply #208 on: February 05, 2010, 03:21:22 PM »
Or maybe Dominic Monaghan's hair is just short right now and it wasn't worth it for him to change his hair just for a cameo.  It's the same reason why we didn't see Shannon, Michael, Walt, or any of the passengers from the rear end of the plane--it just didn't matter that much.

You're reading too much into this stuff.

Exactly. A lot of the actors probably can't get the time to come in for just a cameo, but the alternate reality probably allows them to explain it all away. Especially in the case of Walt, he can't be seen until much later on in the timeline to allow for his age to catch up to his new appearance.

Offline Stogi

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Re: Lost
« Reply #209 on: February 05, 2010, 03:27:42 PM »
I sincerely hope that the way they answer the mysteries within the series doesn't disappoint you all.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Lost
« Reply #210 on: February 05, 2010, 03:29:38 PM »
I sincerely hope that the way they answer the mysteries within the series doesn't disappoint you all.
That makes about a million of us.
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Offline Halbred

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Re: Lost
« Reply #211 on: February 05, 2010, 04:30:06 PM »
I was sincerely hoping that Effigia would turn out to be a basal ornithischian in rigorous phylogenetic analysis. At last year's SVP conference, there were two, count 'em, TWO poster sessions dealing with that very issue. They both used strict consensus trees and bootstrap values and all that good stuff and BOTH determined that little Effigia is still a derived, non-dinosaurian dinosauromorph.
 
I was disappointed. I think that was obvious to both authors, but you can't really argue with the numbers.
 
What's that have to do with Lost? Very little. But for whatever reason, I was reminded of that story.
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Offline vudu

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Re: Lost
« Reply #212 on: February 05, 2010, 04:57:54 PM »
New theory time!  I'm working this out as I type it, so it might not make sense and it's possible that I overlooked some glaring flaw that would make this theory null.  Or maybe this is just common "knowledge" at this point and I just missed it.

Juliette's dying message to Sawyer was it worked.  The parts that we've seen on the island aren't dated, right?  All we know is that they take place sometime after the hatch blows up, but we don't know when "now" is.  It could be 2004, it could be 2007, it could be 2010 for all we know.

However, the scenes on the plane took place on September 22, 2004.  My theory is that the characters in the "plane scenes" will eventually catch up to the characters in the "island scenes" throughout the course of the season.  By negating the timeline they prevented Oceanic 815 from crashing.  However, they are all destined to come to the island and one way or another they will all make it there by the end of the season.  Maybe the characters who have died up to this point will make it there, too, and maybe they'll die once again (under different circumstances) but the main characters that we've seen on the island this week will all make it back.

The biggest problem with this theory is that right now these characters have memories of the original timeline--the one where flight Oceanic 815 crashed.  Whether these will somehow get merged/overwritten by the alternate timeline memories I can't say.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #213 on: February 05, 2010, 05:02:40 PM »
One problem with vudu's theory
We know that the nukers returned to 2007 because when the flare goes up from the temple they see it on the beach with the four toed statue. Ajira flight 316 crashed in 2007. The rest of the theory sounds plausible though

Offline vudu

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Re: Lost
« Reply #214 on: February 05, 2010, 05:48:33 PM »
Good call, ShyGuy²; I forgot about the flare.
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #215 on: February 06, 2010, 03:42:37 AM »
How'd you type that square root?

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Lost
« Reply #216 on: February 06, 2010, 03:57:44 AM »
copy/paste or that alt code that Mop it up told you when you joked about typing your name in for logging back in.

Offline vudu

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Re: Lost
« Reply #217 on: February 06, 2010, 09:57:10 AM »
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #218 on: February 06, 2010, 11:36:45 AM »
Hmm this alt 253 doesn't work for me.

back on the subject of Lost: best seasons (excluding six which isn't finished)

1. Season 4
2. Season 1
3. Season 3
4. Season 5
5. Season 2

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Lost
« Reply #219 on: February 06, 2010, 01:57:12 PM »
Do you think it's possible to watch Lost out of order to actually make the story come together better?

Either by entire seasons, or by regrouping the episodes?
or is it best to watch in it's actual order?

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #220 on: February 06, 2010, 06:54:49 PM »
Best in its actual order, but someday I would like to see a chronological recut of Lost.

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Lost
« Reply #221 on: February 07, 2010, 08:54:11 AM »
Best in its actual order, but someday I would like to see a chronological recut of Lost.

While thats possible we'd see all of Season 4/5's flashforwards put to the end. But with the alternate reality-tron you'd have to watch those separately.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #222 on: February 07, 2010, 12:47:25 PM »
I figure we could alternate back and forth between realities or maybe a split screen view when relevant. Also, they could consolidate that flashbacks for each character into one piece in the three years or so most of the flash backs occur.

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #223 on: February 09, 2010, 07:11:23 PM »
Tonight:
What Kate Does

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Lost
« Reply #224 on: February 10, 2010, 01:50:45 AM »
So, The new episode gave us some interesting points:

Claire is stil pregnant and is destined to raise Aaron herself.
Ethan is off the island so everyone who was on the island, isn't necessarily under the ocean.
Sawyer's scene on the dock was very sad.
Mac from Sunny returns and get's himself shot by-
Jungle Claire, who has turned into Rousseau. Maybe the French Team wasn't infected, but Rousseau was?