Topic: Wii can do it too?

[Plugabugz]

It's almost like thomas the tank engine really: Nintendo partially has some blame for this, but marketing and developers moreso. We know that Wii isn't as powerful as 360/PS3. That is accepted fact. So why is there continual comparisons to other platforms? They are competitor products but you can't compare a bus to llama.

Games like the conduit don't help by saying WE LOOK AS GOOD AS WHATS ON HD PLATFORMS but then, we know full well, it can't.

High Lord Lindy said:

What I really dislike is that there are so many game reviewers out there that are openly hostile to the Wii platform, and to a lesser extent Nintendo in general.  When I looked around and read other reviews of The Conduit, I couldn't believe how many reviewers treated the task of reviewing the game as secondary, instead preferring to use the review as a soapbox to rant about how the Wii hardware is ill-equipped to handle first-person shooters.  I've always felt that it's a reviewer's responsibility to put any personal feelings about a platform, game, or developer aside and review the game vis-a-vis with the hardware that it appears on.

My friend replied to me about it:

at the end of the day you have to take the platform into account because *there is much better quality stuff coming out of the other two*. If the reviewer is used to that quality bar being higher then of course wii stuff that tries to be as good but fails is going to get slammed

Which, in principle, makes sense. If you're going to compare a shooter then compare it to all on the platform firstly, then genre-wide if the genre is progressing elsewhere. But, the same principle doesn't work in reverse if it's another platform. I said to him "So why doesn't 360/PS3 games with online functionality get docked points if it doesn't have cross-platform play? "Because the Wii doesn't do that"

So really, what i'm asking at the end of this convoluted mess is, do you agree with his final statement:

"You accept when nintendo aims to broaden the market that you get games that appeal to all and a minimum of quality shooter titles, you can't turn around and complain when the hardware doesn't do it as well as the others - it's not a one-size-fits-all console, though you might like it to be"

Thoughts?

[Stratos]

Conduit is a great shooter for someone who wants an FPS with Wii controls. It makes it more enjoyable than Team Fortress 2 or Halo in that regard. I just played TF2 on PC and was surprised at how different it felt. I have played so much Conduit that it felt strange and even slightly unintuitive to use a mouse again. I was surprised. I'm sure playing some more PC shooters again will loosen me back up but I'm actually prefer Wiimote to a mouse.

In other areas, sure, it isn't up to snuff, but it is the best option on the platform.


Do people rate DS and PSP games on the same plain as consoles? What of WiiWare/PSN/XBLA games? They do not. So Wii and HD games should also not be compared on the same level.

[Mop it up]

Do people rate DS and PSP games on the same plain as consoles?

Of course not because portables are way different than consoles. But they are compared to each other, though not as much as they used to be.

I think it is silly to put the Wii into a separate category than the XBox 360 and PS3. That's like admitting it isn't as good and it needs to be put into its own category to feel special.

[Stratos]

Do people rate DS and PSP games on the same plain as consoles?

Of course not because portables are way different than consoles. But they are compared to each other, though not as much as they used to be.

I think it is silly to put the Wii into a separate category than the XBox 360 and PS3. That's like admitting it isn't as good and it needs to be put into its own category to feel special.

Graphically it is not as good as the other systems, though. And it also has a very different type of input device from them too. What is wrong with placing it in a separate catagory? I see no issue with that.

[Mop it up]

It's a videogaming console, one you play on your television. Just because the graphics aren't as good and the controller is a little different doesn't mean it should be put into its own category. It's still a videogame console and therefore comparable to other gaming consoles.

[Guitar Smasher]

I think you have to pay special consideration to what makes one game 'better' than another.  Certainly better graphics are a positive, but if a better controlling game is stuck with less than stellar graphics, it shouldn't be written off.  It's fair to rate these as separate categories, but the overall score should be reflective of the game's entertainment value.  Too often it seems that reviewers put more emphasis on the technical merits, instead of the entertainment value.  And I agree that many use the 'reviews' for editorials of their opinions of the console of topic.

Summary: Wii games should be measured against 360/PS3 games in terms of entertainment value.

[Stratos]

Summary: Wii games should be measured against 360/PS3 games in terms of entertainment value.

Well said. I whole-heartedly agree. Entertainment value is a good place to compare them.

Also, I don't think I've met you yet, Guitar Smasher, I'm Stratos. Nice to meet you!

[broodwars]

My basic mantra is that every game should be evaluated on its own merits, regardless of console.  If I pick up a game on the PS2/Wii/PS3/whatever and I'm having fun, what platform it's on doesn't matter because all that's important is that I'm enjoying my time with the game.  While I don't think it's fair to compare something like the graphics in The Conduit to the graphics of say...Resident Evil 5, I do think it's fair to say something like "I had more fun playing Resident Evil 5 than I did The Conduit, therefore Resident Evil 5 is better."  You can't say that Wii games aren't comparable to titles on other platforms because they are, but you have to compare them in the only ways that matter: how that game makes you feel, and whether the game is designed well.

[Peachylala]

Well said. I whole-heartedly agree. Entertainment value is a good place to compare them.

Game reviewers are too stupid to do this though. If Wii was HD from the get go, it would get half the amount of **** flung at it.

Or not. Since the N64 days, the media just hates Nintendo. I guess they hate entertainment value when it's not in BROWN shading.

[Mop it up]

Summary: Wii games should be measured against 360/PS3 games in terms of entertainment value.

Exactly. And that doesn't involve putting them into a category all their own.

[UncleBob]

I think people expect way too much out of the individuals reviewing games.  Just review the game based on whatever criteria you feel necessary an let the people reading your reviews judge if they give two shits about your opinion.

Face it - someone doing a review has to look at the genre of the game, the controls of the game, the artistic merit of the game (graphics, audio and story telling) - then, they have to compare how they perceive all of this to how they've perceived other games in the past.

Since we've all likely played different games - on different platforms - at various points in time - and at various skill levels - with different preferences, we're all going to have different opinions on what makes a game fun or not.

Take Halbred's review of Birds and Beans, for example.  This is a simple, $2 game - ideally there shouldn't be much to debate on it.  However, he, apparently, disliked it greatly.  "I have buyer's remorse over a free game, so that should tell you something."

Five replies down, someone says "Funny enough this was a "killer app" for me."

So, we go from "I feel bad I wasted the money Nintendo gave me" to "I bought a $170 system for this game" - all over a $2 game.

Those of us (I'm assuming rbtr based on his mini-review of the title and myself) who were raised on arcade-like shooters can appreciate the quality put into this title and would recommend it - I'd say it's worth the $2 easily.  $5 even.  However, it seems to me that Halbred likely wasn't raised with the Arcade-Space-Shooting Genre - a type of game play that's so simple and repetitive that it's easy to understand why so many people can't stand to play one for more than a few minutes.

All of this analyzing over a $2 game.  And you want to establish a guide for a "fair" review of $50, multi-million dollar development titles?

[Nick DiMola]

Well put UncleBob.

I understand where Lindy is coming from when he made his assertion. Reviewing The Conduit against other system's FPS titles is not entirely fair. You can certainly make assertions about the relative quality of the title (i.e. How is the game presented and does it follow accepted, popular game design?) given other titles in its genre.

However you can't go into the nitpicky end of things, such as Graphical and Aural presentations because obviously Wii is not as capable as either of the competing systems. Therefore in both of these categories you need to review the game against relative merits.

Something like online play is a bit of a balancing act. On one hand, the Wii is capable of doing online, so you can draw comparisons to online play offered on the other systems. On the other hand, the Wii is barely capable of online, so it's not entirely fair to make that judgment. Ultimately, this part will come down to the reviewer. In my opinion, you need to mention both but when making a judgment on score you need to compare it relatively to other Wii titles.

If we flipped all of this the other way, would anyone say it's fair to knock down the control in a 360 game because you can't use Wii Remote and Nunchuk or a Mouse and Keyboard set up? Obviously, considering what the system offers, doing this would be ludicrous. So sometimes you need to draw comparisons only to relevant titles on the system of choice.

[Nick DiMola]

Sorry for the double post, but this is also worth mentioning.

Keep in mind that HVS is no AAA FPS development house. I honestly didn't like The Conduit, mostly because I felt their inexperience was shining through in all facets of the game. It's certainly a passable title but it's not outstanding by any means.

Also keep in mind that AAA FPS developers aren't interested in working with the Wii because they can't push HD graphics which they've so firmly invested in. If these companies took the time and spent the same or even slightly less to make a Wii game, I guarantee you'd wind up with something far more impressive than efforts on any HD system thanks to the control setup.

The biggest problem here is that the Wii is still brushed aside by so many companies. If they would just give it a chance and invest a little, I think their return would be massive.

[NWR_DrewMG]

If we flipped all of this the other way, would anyone say it's fair to knock down the control in a 360 game because you can't use Wii Remote and Nunchuk or a Mouse and Keyboard set up?

I see Nintendo fans doing this very thing all the time.  I have seen a thousand comments in the vein of

"______ is pretty good, but dual thumbstick is SO archaic."

Is it archaic if all of the bestselling FPS titles still use it?  This was especially prevalent when Metroid Prime 3 launched opposite Bioshock.

[SixthAngel]

Conduit is a great shooter for someone who wants an FPS with Wii controls. It makes it more enjoyable than Team Fortress 2 or Halo in that regard. I just played TF2 on PC and was surprised at how different it felt. I have played so much Conduit that it felt strange and even slightly unintuitive to use a mouse again. I was surprised. I'm sure playing some more PC shooters again will loosen me back up but I'm actually prefer Wiimote to a mouse.

It drives me crazy how so many people always cheer for the mouse and keybord.  The level of reaction time it gives the hardcore players is ridiculous.  It gives the average person's character superhuman reflexes and the it allows the crazies to spin around twice and shoot four people in the head in two seconds with perfect accurracy.  Don't get me started on the mandatory ability to strafe at running speed in any direction with nearly no effect on aim.  M&KB fps never feel like your actually controlling a person.

[NWR_DrewMG]

M&KB fps never feel like your actually controlling a person.

I don't think that's a concern to the people who play FPS for sport.

[ThomasO]

I've played Half-Life 2 on a friend's PC and BioShock on my roommate's 360, and I prefer the dual-analog. I always felt the pin-point accuracy on PC was disorienting somehow, with the camera moving so quickly. I also dislike that if I move the mouse too far I must put it back somehow that it'll be comfortable.

I played World of Goo on Wii and tried the demo on my Mac, and the Wii Remote feels a lot more natural than a mouse cursor. I found my reaction time to be a lot faster using the Wii Remote.

[Nick DiMola]

If we flipped all of this the other way, would anyone say it's fair to knock down the control in a 360 game because you can't use Wii Remote and Nunchuk or a Mouse and Keyboard set up?

I see Nintendo fans doing this very thing all the time.  I have seen a thousand comments in the vein of

"______ is pretty good, but dual thumbstick is SO archaic."

Is it archaic if all of the bestselling FPS titles still use it?  This was especially prevalent when Metroid Prime 3 launched opposite Bioshock.

I think you're missing my point. I was simply using that as a point of reference. I personally feel it's better, but that's just me.

Also, yes, it is archaic when a Wii Remote & Nunhcuk setup exists. FPS games are all about graphics, so bear in mind that if the Xbox 360 featured a similar control scheme things undoubtedly would have changed.

[NWR_DrewMG]

if the Xbox 360 featured a similar control scheme things undoubtedly would have changed.

That certainly is debatable, but I still think that the term archaic is unusable if all relevant FPS games use that system.  Certainly, millions upon millions of gamers have absolutely no problem with Dual Analog FPS controls.  Even if the Wii Remote & Nunchuck were OBJECTIVELY better (and I don't think they are, they're just a bit different.  At least I can play games with dual analog in a room containing ample sunlight, for instance) it's irrelevant if none of the relevant FPS games (IE, the top 10 best selling FPS games) use that scheme.

[EasyCure]

if the Xbox 360 featured a similar control scheme things undoubtedly would have changed.

That certainly is debatable, but I still think that the term archaic is unusable if all relevant FPS games use that system.  Certainly, millions upon millions of gamers have absolutely no problem with Dual Analog FPS controls.  Even if the Wii Remote & Nunchuck were OBJECTIVELY better (and I don't think they are, they're just a bit different.  At least I can play games with dual analog in a room containing ample sunlight, for instance) it's irrelevant if none of the relevant FPS games (IE, the top 10 best selling FPS games) use that scheme.

But those relevant FPS games (IE, The top 10 best selling FPS games) use that scheme because the dev-houses are more about pushing graphics (and to a lesser extent physics) than control. Notice i didn't say "more intuitive" control method because I'm trying not to be biased here. But think about it, if Wii was and HD powerhouse console like the other two platforms, and even if it wasn't getting any exclusive FPS games, just multiplatform releases, don't you think it might change things a bit? Who knows, all of a sudden those top 10 best selling FPS games might be selling BEST on the one console with a different control method.

No one can say that the dual-analog way of controling a FPS is archaic when devs think their "art" is too good to put on Wii (when ironicaly, they might have a better shot at making money they pretend they don't strive for). Only when the playing feild is even will anyone be able to call dual-analog archaic.


As for reviews, i hate them to be honest. I'll read one every now and again but unless there's something that gives me the impression a game is totally not worth my money (ie, broken) i don't put much thought into them. I won't let a score judge my opinion on a game before ever playing it, because how will i ever know if the pros or cons pointed out by said review ever really held up? "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that jazz.

[NWR_DrewMG]

Yep EasyCure, I think we're on the same page. 

[EasyCure]

Good to know. I don't need enemies

[Morari]

Hehe... Dual analog sticks in a FPS.

[Stogi]

Didn't you hear? The Wii can do HD.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=28798.0

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

So the High Drama Wii games are coming?