Topic: The more I think about it...

[that Baby guy]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: wandering You love Nintendo, and so have a hard time seeing a personification of Nintendo being killed by a personification of Sony.

Interesting observation, but it's not the Sony personification that matters so much as the fact that it's Mario having his neck broken.

Here's the thing, and something which I largely don't understand: how do the people here be a fan of video games to the point where they post on a Nintendo fansite and yet not take issue with the same thing I've seen done in anti-Nintendo flash animations and comics which are intended to anger Nintendo fans being done in SSB?

My real question is still "Why?". They went out of their way to mention that none of Snake's firearms would be in the game and the intention for that was clearly to keep the game an easy T for teen. So why throw the neck-snap into the game? Nintendo sure as hell didn't NEED the M crowd, and I DEFINITELY hope they're not playing to the "LOOK! SNAKE IS BREAKING MARIO'S NECK! LOLOLOL!!" crowd.

In the grand scheme of things, there was zero need for it so why add it?

Now you're changing the issue a little bit.  I can answer this one easily, though.  What is the main idea behind the gameplay in the MGS series?  Stealth.  And what is the staple stealth attack?  The neck snap.  It is Snake's prime attack.  It's what he uses the most.  He doesn't go into a room with guns a-blaze.  He sneaks in behind someone and snaps his or her neck.

Not including the neck snap into the game would be like taking Mario's fireball or uppercut specials.  It would be like only allowing Pikachu to use takedown, and not including a single thunder attack.  It would be like having Link in the game without the Master Sword.  Make sense?  These techniques and weapons are as much as a part of the character as the polygons, the voices, and the stages are.  Snake would not be Snake without a neck-snapping attack.  It just wouldn't be representative of his game.  Of course, you could argue that the playable characters don't have to represent the same techniques they exhibit in their original gameplay by mentioning Capt. Falcon, Fox, or Falco.  I'd disagree, because their biggest staples are speed, especially in respect to the Captain.  With Fox and Falco, both use a reflect, a staple in their gameplay, since Arwings can reflect attacks, and a laser gun, similar to the on foot abilities in StarFox 64.  They also jump similarly, with heavy density, just like the game.

Once again, I must stress that this is a big part of who Snake is.  Neck snaps are basically Snake's signature move, and it would be disrespectful to Kojima not to include them.

This isn't an issue about Mario, really.  Like we've said, we've already seen a pretty graphic Mario death, one that isn't cartoony.  Snake can perform the attack on any player in the game, so it means nothing as far as a personal attack on Mario.  Why was Mario chosen for the video?  Well, Mario is a human-shaped character who we've seen a lot of already in the game.  Whoever made this specific video probably chose those staple characters, Mario, Link, Kirby, or Pikachu, and Snape to make it, so nothing extra could be revealed in a shot or a clip.

I agree that you two are over-reacting to this.  Yes, it's Mario, our beloved Nintendo mascot, but he's been in worse situations, regardless of if he's been hurt in them.  Remember NBA Street 2k5 or 2k6, or whatever they called it?  How about that one SSX game?  Mashiro and Adrock have been mentioning SCII all throughout the thread.  We've seen Link in some pretty violent and sexual situations, beyond the norm, and not too many people were upset then, right?

And no, this move isn't in the game to increase appeal to older kids.  Nintendo doesn't cater to any specific audience when they make their games, and neither does Sakurai.  This move is there as a symbol of Snake.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: thatguy
Now you're changing the issue a little bit.  I can answer this one easily, though.  What is the main idea behind the gameplay in the MGS series?  Stealth.  And what is the staple stealth attack?  The neck snap.  It is Snake's prime attack.  It's what he uses the most.  He doesn't go into a room with guns a-blaze.  He sneaks in behind someone and snaps his or her neck.

As I recall, I got great use out of the dart gun which is also a stealth device, as well as a silenced pistol, and yet both of those were wisely omitted from the game because they brought too much realism with them, much like the neck snap.

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Not including the neck snap into the game would be like taking Mario's fireball or uppercut specials.  It would be like only allowing Pikachu to use takedown, and not including a single thunder attack.  It would be like having Link in the game without the Master Sword.  Make sense?  These techniques and weapons are as much as a part of the character as the polygons, the voices, and the stages are.  Snake would not be Snake without a neck-snapping attack.  It just wouldn't be representative of his game.  Of course, you could argue that the playable characters don't have to represent the same techniques they exhibit in their original gameplay by mentioning Capt. Falcon, Fox, or Falco.  I'd disagree, because their biggest staples are speed, especially in respect to the Captain.  With Fox and Falco, both use a reflect, a staple in their gameplay, since Arwings can reflect attacks, and a laser gun, similar to the on foot abilities in StarFox 64.  They also jump similarly, with heavy density, just like the game.

Where's Mario's Tanooki suit, his spin jump, his winged cap and his ability to ride Yoshi?

Where's Link's energy sword which fires bolts at his enemies when he's at 0% damage?

Yeah, that's right, they're not in the game.

Snake has his cardboard box, which is certainly what he's known for the most (with the first SSBB trailer being evidence of this). No one would complain if the neck snap wasn't in the game.

Also, I remember him more for the Nikita, which is also in the game, not for a move I used on nameless guards who didn't pose much of a threat to me.

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Once again, I must stress that this is a big part of who Snake is.  Neck snaps are basically Snake's signature move, and it would be disrespectful to Kojima not to include them.

Kojima doesn't deserve what he's been given already. This is the guy who has been sh*tting all over Nintendo and the Wii every chance he gets, and if the fact that Nintendo fires employees when they complain in blogs is any evidence, Nintendo is NOT the kind of company to take that sort of thing lightly.

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This isn't an issue about Mario, really.  Like we've said, we've already seen a pretty graphic Mario death, one that isn't cartoony.  Snake can perform the attack on any player in the game, so it means nothing as far as a personal attack on Mario.  Why was Mario chosen for the video?  Well, Mario is a human-shaped character who we've seen a lot of already in the game.  Whoever made this specific video probably chose those staple characters, Mario, Link, Kirby, or Pikachu, and Snape to make it, so nothing extra could be revealed in a shot or a clip.

I'm well aware it won't exclusively be Mario who has his neck snapped, but that's just one more reason I don't want to see it in this game. Snake's neck snap is a move used exclusively on nameless guards who no one is supposed to care about. I KNOW there are bigger Nintendo fans here than myself, and yet seeing the same fate visited upon Nintendo's characters bothers even ME.

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I agree that you two are over-reacting to this.  Yes, it's Mario, our beloved Nintendo mascot, but he's been in worse situations, regardless of if he's been hurt in them.  Remember NBA Street 2k5 or 2k6, or whatever they called it?  How about that one SSX game?  Mashiro and Adrock have been mentioning SCII all throughout the thread.  We've seen Link in some pretty violent and sexual situations, beyond the norm, and not too many people were upset then, right?

Hypothetical situation: what if it wasn't a neck snap? What if Snake pulled his knife and the implication was that he was plunging it into the back of the character he was holding before lowering the corpse to the ground, with the look of pain on the character's face being obvious? What if he took his pistol, held it to the back of the character's head and fired it before lowering the corpse to the ground with their stunned expression after the gun went off?

There would be no blood shown in either case and the character would get up afterwards and appear unaffected, but would those moves not bother you, either?

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And no, this move isn't in the game to increase appeal to older kids.  Nintendo doesn't cater to any specific audience when they make their games, and neither does Sakurai.  This move is there as a symbol of Snake.

Again, the box and the Nikita are all the signature he needs. If you ask any random gamer what they remember about Snake, 9/10 will say "the box".  

[that Baby guy]

I can't speak for other people like you do, but when I think of Snake, the first thing that comes to my mind is sneaking up behind people and snapping their necks.  Then, I think of Metal Gears, then, I think of the box.  I do not think of a silenced fire-arm at all, and the Nikita is in the back of the list somewhere.  When I think of Mario, I think of the mushrooms, platforming, enemies, then fireballs.  When I think of Link, I think of the Tri-force, the Master Sword, bombs, and his shield.

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No one would complain if the neck snap wasn't in the game.

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Kojima doesn't deserve what he's been given already. This is the guy who has been sh*tting all over Nintendo and the Wii every chance he gets, and if the fact that Nintendo fires employees when they complain in blogs is any evidence, Nintendo is NOT the kind of company to take that sort of thing lightly.

Sounds like you would find reason to complain, anyways.  You need to research the blog issue, you can't go around insulting your bosses and expect no retaliation.  These are people you work with every day.  It would be like posting hate notes on a school bulletin board and leaving your name on them.  Sure, it wouldn't be right in the teacher's face, but it's an accessible place.  Kojima has made statements that show the value each platform could have.  I believe you're referring to the TV, Movie, and Movie Theater experiences he mentioned, right?  In that sense, he was saying that the Wii was a lot more accessible to the public, and more people would spend more time with it, while the other two cost more, but could allow for an increased presentation value for each respective platform.  Is this not true?  Regardless, it's pretty easy to see that your real issue may not be with Snake's neck snap, but with Hideo Kojima or with Konami.

If you don't want to see Nintendo's characters attacked by good guys, don't buy this game.  I know you don't like the series, so maybe you haven't bought Brawl's predecessors, either.  Again, these are supposed to be trophies brought to life in a fantasy story and environment.  You know all your favorite video game characters aren't real, so I can't see how this is stabbing you so deeply.  If you wanted to talk about who the attack is used on, why not several of the game's grabs?  Most characters grabs and throws aren't based on much more than Kirby's Suplex ability, really.  Isn't it nice to see one added that's based on the original character's abilities and personality?

Hypothetical situation:  What if it wasn't the neck snap?  What if it was an air-hump and a throw?  What if it was eating and stealing a character's power?  What if it was turning them into an egg?  What if it were hammering someone?  There's several attacks these characters perform that get used on countless generic goons, and stops them in one hit.  The beauty is that it shows all of the characters are much tougher than the average goon.  Mario gets back up.  You can break out of the egg shell.  When Kirby swallows you, you don't just disappear.  When the ice climbers hit you with a hammer, you don't just vanish.  It shows you that these heroes aren't nameless figures, that they can dish and they can take.

As far as the knifing and the gunning, I'd like to point out that Smash Bros. has never featured piercing attack that work like piercing attacks.  The swords are more like Wiffle Bats, aside from sounds.  The closest thing there is to a piercing attack are the beam sword and the paper fan.  So, in effect, Snake's knife would just slice right through you, and you'd get back up, it wouldn't be much different than a standard beam sword attack, except he held you still in the process.  There's no precedence of a piercing projectile attack, so odds are, I would not be comfortable with that.  With the neck snap, there has been a lot of history of grabs and throws in the Smash games already.  I mean, every character can grab, and every character has at least four throws.  Cpt. Falcon and Ganondorf have a fifth one, too.  This is a lot like that.  Are you upset about Bowser's down throw?  The one where he body slams his opponent and it looks like he's raping them?  I hope so, you should be.  In fact, you should go make an angry topic about it right now.  That shouldn't happen to Peach.  She's a woman of royalty and should keep her dignity, right?  Oh, wait, you're holding a double standard.  Sorry, I forgot.

[Mashiro]

I love this argument that Nintendo is not the kind of company that would let this sort of treatment happen to their characters.

For chirst sake can ANYONE address what I said (and Adrock) said like 4 pages back?

Here it is in bold . . . just so everyone can see who is having a sh*t fest over this neck snap thing:

SOUL CALIBUR II

Where, in which, our beloved mascot Link can be slicked and diced QUITE realistically (most of the fighting styles and move sets are based upon real martial arts styles) and in fact his chest can be run right through with a sword when Mitsurugi's self sacrificing attack is executed.

Did Nintendo care then? No . . . no they did not. So why should they care about a move which, in total, lasts 1.5 seconds on screen where in which tons of other actions are occurring?

Also, are we gauging how big of a Nintendo fan you are by how offended you are by this move? Cause I've been a Nintendo gamer since the age of 4, the first game I played was Super Mario Bros., I love Mario, I love Nintendo and it's various franchises yet this does not bother me in the least.  

[that Baby guy]

Look, it's clear that you aren't going to listen to me.  It's clear that you're going to take this attack very personal, and that you have resentment to at least Kojima.  I've made my points, and others have made theirs, as well.  We've given several reasons why the attack fits, as it pertains to character, concept, severity and precedence in prior Smash games.  We've compared Snake to other characters, and we've cited other situations where Nintendo characters have appeared alongside things not from Nintendo.  We've addressed most, if not all, of the issues you've brought up, and all of our counterpoints make a great deal of sense.  This is getting us no where.

You can continue to speak for others, ignore several of our points, over-dramaticize the issue, and alter the point of discussion whenever we make a solid point, or you can at least admit that there is good reason for the attack to be in the game, and that it should not be taken as an offensive gesture toward Nintendo and Nintendo's characters.

I do agree that the attack does not have to be there, that it is not necessary for Snake, but I also believe that it is a solid piece of Snake's character, and was a great choice to be included in the game.  I don't believe it goes overboard, especially since we see a number of attacks that kill normal enemies from several other characters.

[Adrock]

No, no, no..... you must mention the face sitting!

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My real question is still "Why?". They went out of their way to mention that none of Snake's firearms would be in the game and the intention for that was clearly to keep the game an easy T for teen. So why throw the neck-snap into the game?

I dug this up from when Brawl was first revealed May 10, 2006:

"We thought a lot about what to do with Snake and his moves in Super Smash Bros. Brawl," said Sakurai. "As you all know Snake walks around with a gun, but with Super Smash Bros. I didn't want to bring in a lot of real weapons. So that was a real challenge. But conversely, if we could use things like rocket launchers and other explosives, not only would that be fitting for Snake, but it would work for the other characters. But who knows. Maybe Snake will exclusively use explosives throughout the game."

Grenades are just as, if not, more dangerous than guns albeit far more uncommon in households. How is something that kills more fitting for Smash Bros. than something else that kills? Sakurai opted against real-life firearms and by his own admission, it was because it wouldn't work with other characters. They could've added guns and still gained a Teen rating. Ubisoft pulled it off with Red Steel. There are guns in Smash Bros. whether they shoot lasers or bullets is irrelevant because the guns look like guns and shoot things/people which is what guns do.

[Dirk Temporo]

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Originally posted by: pap64
That comment's a bit too much don't you think? I mean, to accuse people of having emotional issues because they don't like seeing a character being murdered? That's just being heartless.

I think that if you are so attached to a character that you raise a ruckus about it, even on the Internet, you have some issues.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I like Dirk despite his tendencies, but subtlety really isn't one of his strong suits.

Yeah, I still like you despite this as well.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: thatguy Kojima has made statements that show the value each platform could have.  I believe you're referring to the TV, Movie, and Movie Theater experiences he mentioned, right?

He also called the GC a purple handbag and I'm sure has made other jabs at Nintendo over the years that I've missed.

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If you don't want to see Nintendo's characters attacked by good guys, don't buy this game.  I know you don't like the series, so maybe you haven't bought Brawl's predecessors, either.

I've played SSB64 + Melee for a combined 1200-1300 hours, actually.

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Again, these are supposed to be trophies brought to life in a fantasy story and environment.

Yes, which is why the neck snap doesn't belong in the game.

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Hypothetical situation:  What if it wasn't the neck snap?  What if it was an air-hump and a throw?  What if it was eating and stealing a character's power?  What if it was turning them into an egg?  What if it were hammering someone?

It's not the attack, it's the reaction. Mario's arms flail out when his neck is snapped as though he's actually having his neck broken, and I frankly don't look forward to seeing what it looks like when performed on all of the other characters as well.

All of the ones you listed don't show the characters reacting in a realistic fashion. If you clubbed Mario in the face with a hammer and he stood there clutching his face, screaming in agony, then there'd be some merit to this argument, but you're completely sidestepping the point I was making which is that there's a gigantic difference between real and fantasy violence as well as how the character reacts to it.

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There's no precedence of a piercing projectile attack, so odds are, I would not be comfortable with that.

...Just like they're no history of characters breaking each other's bones or performing execution maneuvers, hence why I'M not comfortable with it.

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Are you upset about Bowser's down throw?  The one where he body slams his opponent and it looks like he's raping them?  I hope so, you should be.  In fact, you should go make an angry topic about it right now.  That shouldn't happen to Peach.  She's a woman of royalty and should keep her dignity, right?  Oh, wait, you're holding a double standard.  Sorry, I forgot.

No, because Bowser's down throw is him falling on his opponent and they come comically popping out as he squeezes them out between him and the ground. Furthermore, Bowser isn't raping anyone, but Snake is DEFINITELY snapping necks. If Bowser landed on them and performed a few thrusts first, ok, I'd definitely agree, but what he's doing is something wrestlers have been doing for years.

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SOUL CALIBUR II

...Is not made by Nintendo. Link was a guest in the game and as such has to abide by the rules of the universe he's been placed in. The same should go for Snake.

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Grenades are just as, if not, more dangerous than guns albeit far more uncommon in households. How is something that kills more fitting for Smash Bros. than something else that kills? Sakurai opted against real-life firearms and by his own admission, it was because it wouldn't work with other characters. They could've added guns and still gained a Teen rating. Ubisoft pulled it off with Red Steel. There are guns in Smash Bros. whether they shoot lasers or bullets is irrelevant because the guns look like guns and shoot things/people which is what guns do.

Explosives have been a comedic element for years. Hell, the Mario universe even has its own little amusing explosive called a "Bob-omb".

Also, there's a difference between a high teen and a low teen and when guns are firing, the game has to have "Realistic Violence" added to the list which appears on the box.

But a neck snap is, IMHO, more real BECAUSE of the reaction the characters have to it. Laser blasts hit characters and knock them in the air, bombs explode and knock them around, swords hit and they bounce back...all of this is comedic violence, and in the middle of that, Snake breaks a character's neck as their head jerks to the side, their arms flail and they have an expression of pain on their face. It's an unwelcome bit of realistic violence in the middle of piles of fantasy violence, and I don't think it belongs in there.

We should probably just drop this. I'm pretty certain neither side is going anywhere.

[LuigiHann]

Hey.

Can somebody post a slowed-motion animated gif of Link stabbing Mario, and Mario's reaction?

[Adrock]

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...Is not made by Nintendo. Link was a guest in the game and as such has to abide by the rules of the universe he's been placed in. The same should go for Snake.

And Link is still a Nintendo character. If Nintendo had a problem with Link or any of their other characters being  portrayed in a certain way, it wouldn't happen in any game their characters appear in.

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Explosives have been a comedic element for years. Hell, the Mario universe even has its own little amusing explosive called a "Bob-omb".

So have guns! I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned Looney Toons. Elmer Fudd has shot Daffy Duck innumerable times which has resulted in his beak being blown off or repositioned on his face.  

[vudu]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Link was a guest in [Soul Caliber II] and as such has to abide by the rules of the universe he's been placed in. The same should go for Snake.

Actually, no; Link kept his projectile weapons, something no other character in the game had.

[tombo125]

Nobody has replied about SCII because that is not what we are talking about.  Link getting sliced and diced in that game makes much more sense than anybody getting their neck broken in SSB.  SC is a realistic game and SSB is not.  For that reason nobody has addressed the SC thing.  Its not relevent to this discussion as I see it.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Worst Smash Brothers ever.

[Mashiro]

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Its not relevent to this discussion as I see it.

Of course it is relevant.

When people are saying how Nintendo would "never" let such violent actions happen to their character it is completely relevant because clearly they didn't mind in the case of SCII. It's perfectly relevant.

Proving evidence to support ones claims is a good way to have a discussion, at least that's what I think.

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makes much more sense than anybody getting their neck broken in SSB.

I guess some people thought a trained killer being added into Brawl meant hugs and kisses for all the other characters.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Coming from Snake, they're the inappropriate kind of hugs and kisses.

[tombo125]

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Originally posted by: Mashiro

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Its not relevent to this discussion as I see it.

Of course it is relevant.

When people are saying how Nintendo would "never" let such violent actions happen to their character it is completely relevant because clearly they didn't mind in the case of SCII. It's perfectly relevant.

Proving evidence to support ones claims is a good way to have a discussion, at least that's what I think.

About the bold, I never said that and I agree with you about it.  Soul Caliber is only one example.

I am only talking about Snake breaking necks in the context of Super Smash Brothers.

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makes much more sense than anybody getting their neck broken in SSB.

I guess some people thought a trained killer being added into Brawl meant hugs and kisses for all the other characters.

I just think it is strange to take out guns and knives but leave in breaking necks.  Can we at least agree on that?  I personally find breaking necks to be worse that guns or knives.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Mashiro Of course it is relevant.

No, because SC is a game designed around realistic violence and swordplay and SSB is a game built around cartoony violence and general silliness. I don't understand how this continues to escape you.

It'd be like Monty Python throwing a sad, dramatic skit into the middle of one of their shows: it just doesn't fit.

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When people are saying how Nintendo would "never" let such violent actions happen to their character it is completely relevant because clearly they didn't mind in the case of SCII. It's perfectly relevant.

Which game was Mario executed in? I don't recall that happening in any of his deaths in Mario 64.

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Proving evidence to support ones claims is a good way to have a discussion, at least that's what I think.

This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury.

You want evidence?

1. Mario and the majority of the characters in SSB have never been in a game where their neck or any bones were implied to be broken.

2. SSB is a game which revolves around cartoony violence. A neck snap classifies as realistic violence.

3. Nintendo wanted to minimize the amount of realistic violence by omitting Snake's firearms.

Ergo, the neck snap doesn't fit into SSB.

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I guess some people thought a trained killer being added into Brawl meant hugs and kisses for all the other characters.

Stop putting words into the mouths of others, and stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute.

Just because I think Snake's neck snap is excessive and doesn't belong in the game doesn't mean I thought he'd run around handing flowers to the other characters for all of his A moves.

I think you should actually argue people's points via counterpoints, not make obtuse references that have no relevance and then declare your opposition of being a bunch of blithering idiots.    

[GoldenPhoenix]

I agree with Smash, anyway carry on.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I'm reasonably confident that guns were only left out for gameplay reasons.  They would feature practically instantaneously traveling projectiles too small to see that we would have real world expectations of power from.  Fox's blaster is nearly that fast, but it barely even stings and is highly visible.  It can work that way because it's science fiction, so real world considerations are more flexible.  Diddy's gun shoots comically large peanuts, but he's a comical character, so that works.  A missile launcher is a realistic weapon, but it fires a very large projectile with a nice plume of smoke, and it can move slowly enough to be dodged without it looking wrong, particularly if it's guided, because it would have to be slow enough to be controllable, too.  That's a case of gameplay considerations overruling real world expectations, but in a way that's still believable.  I don't think the way a real bullet moves and looks could be changed for the gameplay without looking wrong.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that violence or thinking of the children have anything to do with leaving out realistic guns, based on Sakurai's wording.

[Mashiro]

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No, because SC is a game designed around realistic violence and swordplay and SSB is a game built around cartoony violence and general silliness. I don't understand how this continues to escape you.

It isn't escaping me because it remains cartoony. What is escaping you, my friend, is you keep saying "Mario is being executed". He isn't. He isn't being killed.

Hence, why this falls into the realm of being unrealistic and cartoony. Just as dropping an anvil in a Looney Tunes cartoon yields the person/animal hit in a dazed state as opposed to killed.

Mario DOES NOT DIE. He may sleep or he may bounce back up, but he's not dead.

If Snake does that move each time and says "goto sleep" or a wacky sound effect happens would that make you feel better?

It's still unrealistic and cartoony without that because, again, the party having his/her/it's neck snapped isn't dying. They are just going to sleep and will be back up again in a moments notice to fight again.

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Which game was Mario executed in? I don't recall that happening in any of his deaths in Mario 64.

When did I mention Mario 64? I mentioned Soul Calibur II and Link being put in harms way and in situations which very real and potentially deadly maneuvers are done to a Nintendo mascot/icon. You keep saying how you have a hard time believing Miyamoto or Nintendo would let this in the game and happen to one of their characters, and I keep telling you they have put another one of their characters already in such a violent game, that game is Soul Calibur II.

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This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury.

You want evidence?

1. Mario and the majority of the characters in SSB have never been in a game where their neck or any bones were implied to be broken.

2. SSB is a game which revolves around cartoony violence. A neck snap classifies as realistic violence.

3. Nintendo wanted to minimize the amount of realistic violence by omitting Snake's firearms.

Ergo, the neck snap doesn't fit into SSB.

1. Where does it say their neck or bones are broken or implied at being broken? Again you keep taking the move out of context. If they character is just sleeping and bounces back up and is fine then where does it imply that they have broken bones or a neck? There is no neck snapping sound or anything so if the character just goes to sleep and pops back up fine then what's the big deal?

2. SSB is a game which revolves around characters fighting and using trade mark moves and abilities against one another.

3. *See Partybears comment above as that makes perfect sense to me*

Ergo, the neck snap fits into SSB perfectly as it is a reflection of Snakes character.

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Stop putting words into the mouths of others, and stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute.

Just because I think Snake's neck snap is excessive and doesn't belong in the game doesn't mean I thought he'd run around handing flowers to the other characters for all of his A moves.

So what do you want Snake to do then? Have absolutely no moves from his franchise? Please do tell.

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I think you should actually argue people's points via counterpoints, not make obtuse references that have no relevance and then declare your opposition of being a bunch of blithering idiots.

I have, and so have others and you fluff them off. You said Nintendo would never allow this to happen to their characters and are acting as if a Nintendo character has never been put in such a violent situation. You've said this multiple times throughout this forum and I counted with Soul Calibur 2.

Oh and . . . with the whole "This is the kind of thing a $2,000 defense attorney would cry out in court in an attempt to mislead the jury. "

Yeah, I'm not the one who is founding an argument based on a clip that is slowed down DRASTICALLY from what the actual in game footage is like.

Talk about misleading.

Thanks for putting words into my mouth by the way, where did I call/declare any of you blithering idiots? I would call you a sensationalist but not a blithering idiot.    

Edit: Furthermore, good sir, "stop taking something said and turning it into a bizarre absolute", says the person who equated this to having Quagmire from family guy in the game and humping the characters.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Ergo

Mashiro you lose the whole debate by using that term!

[that Baby guy]

I just wanted to mention that before a character is hit by Bowser's down throw, they close their eyes and flail their arms and legs, as one might before being crushed.  You might not notice it, because no one plays as Bowser, really, but the characters on the receiving end literally look to be in peril, as if they truly are to be crushed to death.  That's pretty gruesome, as well.

[Sessha]

I don't see how your gun arguement is relevant, they could have omitted that for any number of reasons.

Why people have been bringing up Soul Calibur is that Nintendo has no problem putting a nintendo character in "realistic" danger.  Why should Mario get preferrential treatment?  Snake can get beat to hell just as much as anyone else.  He twists Mario's neck but in no way does this kill him.  It portrays a death if it were happening in the real world.  So would getting hit with a baseball bat.  It would be violent if Mario were to lay there the rest of the match ne'er to get up again.  After the initial attack there is no lasting damage that you can see.  

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Sessha
I don't see how your gun arguement is relevant, they could have omitted that for any number of reasons.

What other reasons?

Sakurai has stated that the reason they cut out Snake's guns and knives was because of the realism factor. Hell, they even took the same approach with Fox's laser gun.

And just so you know, Snake was in Dream mix TV (a SSB clone fighter done by Hudson Soft and Konami) and according to his move list he doesn't use guns and knives either, so clearly there's a general agreement that in lighthearted fighters like SSB Snake shouldn't be using any of his real world weapons.

Once again, we are talking about cartoony, slapstick violence versus realistic violence. Using guns would fall under the realistic violence category.

Also, forgetting the whole issue, wasn't anyone a tad bothered by the fact that Konami proudly displayed the neck snap on their conference?

[Mashiro]

I wasn't bothered by it.

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Using guns would fall under the realistic violence category.

But what about Looney Tunes using guns! Double standards! Zoinks!

Also Fox never had a realistic gun did he?