Topic: Sega proves once again why they are the dumbest company in the universe.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

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Originally posted by: Kairon

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Originally posted by: BigJim
Graphics and "old" controllers and "traditional thinking" are not being rejected by the masses.

PRICE is being rejected.

Yeah, that's why the gaming market has NOT increased since the NES percentage wise, and why the market in Japan was SHRINKING before the DS came out.

Praise Reggie for his charts. Can I get an Amen? But let me know when they produce a chart that proves it was graphics and controllers being rejected.  The DS also has this objectionable interface, in fact it has even more buttons and screens than its predecessor, yet manages to squeak by with these antiquated and intimidating handicaps.

That is a silly argument, you can say the same about every controller innovation out there. Dual screens is an innovation as well, it isn't antiquated because it was rarely used int he past.  BTW the Wii/nunchuck combo has more buttons than the Nintendo DS has, especially if you count the control pad.

[BigJim]

You fail at detecting sarcasm on the internets.  Point is, I don't subscribe to the idea that people reject graphics and buttons. At present, they reject to being pieholed by price.  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
Praise Reggie for his charts. Can I get an Amen? But let me know when they produce a chart that proves it was graphics and controllers being rejected.  The DS also has this objectionable interface, in fact it has even more buttons and screens than its predecessor, yet manages to squeak by with these antiquated and intimidating handicaps.

*Downs some kool-aid* AMEN!

hmmm... I would say that we should only look at the success of Brain Age and Nintendogs. These two games kick-started the DS' rise, and they were almost entirely through the touchpad. Maybe even throw in Animal Crossing. Later "traditional" controls went on to sell in New Super Mario Bros. ... But maybe an argument can be made that NSMB was successful because BA and ND did the heavy lifting of moving DS' into skeptical; consumers' hands. Also, all the above games are not memorable for their graphics.

Also, the Wii Sports high attach-rate in Japan generally shows that Wiisports, and by extension, the Wiimote, is a killer app. In America, Wii Sports is packed-in, but although we don't have sales figures it's non-hardcore graphics and new controls are what's compelling people to buy the Wii in large numbers, while traditional console XBox 360 flails (or fails to) behind the PS2.

Yes, Price is a factor there, but so is the contention that it hasn't made enough of an argument for ownership, i.e. same 'ol same 'ol.

... and price is tied into graphics anyways. Can't have your cake and eat it and all that.

[BigJim]

I would suggest that content has much more to do with their successes than their interfaces would. Wii Sports lends itself naturally to the motion sensor in an organic way, and I agree, and that is probably one of a rare few exceptions where interface and content are TRULY hand-in-hand.

You touched on the next point I was going to make... content and the "same 'ol". For as long as content is king, graphics and interfaces are merely tools. It's all about what you do with it, and wholesale rejection of regular controllers and better graphics is just a silly notion to me. That's a flavor of Kool-Aid I'm not drinking.

Argument for ownership? Absolutely true as well. But I think that also ties in with price. What games are worth $600? None, of course. Not even Wii Sports would be worth that much. Like I said, once the prices come down and release lineups mature, sales will probably not be nearly this lop-sided.  And that to me will be a clear indication that traditional gaming has plenty of merit.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: BigJim
I would suggest that content has much more to do with their successes than their interfaces would. Wii Sports lends itself naturally to the motion sensor in an organic way, and I agree, and that is probably one of a rare few exceptions where interface and content are TRULY hand-in-hand.

You touched on the next point I was going to make... content and the "same 'ol". For as long as content is king, graphics and interfaces are merely tools. It's all about what you do with it, and wholesale rejection of regular controllers and better graphics is just a silly notion to me. That's a flavor of Kool-Aid I'm not drinking.

Argument for ownership? Absolutely true as well. But I think that also ties in with price. What games are worth $600? None, of course. Not even Wii Sports would be worth that much. Like I said, once the prices come down and release lineups mature, sales will probably not be nearly this lop-sided.  And that to me will be a clear indication that traditional gaming has plenty of merit.

Because traditional gaming isn't being done on Wii or DS. Controllers evolve constantly, and traditional gaming is such a subjective term, technically you can say the Atari's method of control was "traditional" and anything after it wasn't.

[couchmonkey]

There's no doubt that traditional gaming has merit, but there's also no doubt that Nintendo's new interface has merit as well.

Sales of products like Brain Training, Wii Sports and Nintendogs speak for themselves.  In Japan in particular you can watch some of these games hit the top 10 over and over and over again, weeks after a normal game would have disappeared.  There's no doubt the interface is helping to sell these products.

My point isn't that motion controls are a 100% replacement for buttons or that graphics don't matter, but that price isn't 100% of the reason why Wii is selling so well.  It's a major factor, but a system with hardly any good games (according to hardcore gamers) isn't selling out week after week on the strength of price alone.  You can have a core 360 for $50 extra and get all the graphics and about 3-4 times as many games to choose from.  Yeah, that's the "tard pack", but the point is it's out there and it's no more expensive than PS2 was.

Also, what does this have to do with Sega? Hehe.

[Ian Sane]

"Is your entire family extremely tech-savvy, Ian?"

My Mom sure as hell isn't.  My Dad is but just has no interest in games.  Anytime I've tried to introduce them to a game they just don't seem to care at all.  It has nothing to do with the controller.  DDR didn't spark interest.  My Mom gets confused by f*cking Pac-Man.

I don't think the remote compares to d-pad (which is barely any different than a digital joystick) or the analog stick or any of that because those all added on and the remote takes away.  Nintendo says "This is the new way to do it and should be the ONLY way to do it" which is incredibly limiting.  I think a problem with gaming has been that often shrinks instead of grows.  It seems we have less genres than before as publishers decide that certain types of games are no longer marketable and then kill them off.  Stuff like Sony's attitude towards 2D games limits gaming.  The PC gaming industry seems to be limited to four genres: FPS, RTS, MMORPG, Tycoon game.  Everything should expand like a pyramid.  It started with Pong and that influenced new ideas and those influenced new ideas and as time has gone by the amount of game genres and sub-genres has expanded.  Yet we don't have more than we did before on store shelves.  So Nintendo saying "we don't need this type of game anymore" is really no different than Sony rejecting 2D.  It should all expand, not replace or remove.

[EasyCure]

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Also, what does this have to do with Sega? Hehe.

shows that we're smarter?

[KDR_11k]

Ian, you should still try Wii Sports on them when you get it, sports are something people already know and telling them "just swing that thing like a bat" works well enough.

The Wiimote has less buttons than a TV remote, yes. There's only so much you can fit on a thing of that size. That's what the expansion port is for. I plug a nunchuk in and have an a-stick with pointing, I plug the classic controller in and I have a dualshock compatible gamepad. The Wiimote is the most flexible controller on the market, it can be any controller you want it to be.

Only adding and never removing is a bad idea, it accumulates unnecessary features and leads to bad design. If the Wiimote had two analog sticks on it, would it still be ergonomic? Should it have handles like a GC controller? Should you need two hands to hold it? Sony demonstrated why you can't just add: The Sixaxis is a mess of incompatible features, its motion control is hindered by its awkward shape that is necessary for it to work like a traditional gamepad. As you add more and more features you get the NGage, a device with several functions, all of which have conflicting requirements for the form factor.

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo could do an even better job of attracting older demographics. Wii Sports is a good thing, but I see there is a Crossword Puzzle game for the DS out now. That's the kind of thing that appeals to older generations. For Mom, Nintendo could unleash a gardening or a crocheting game. For Dad, Nintendo could come out with a BBQ simulator, or (heaven forbid) a Mario fishing game.

I'm dead serious about those suggestions. The Wii-mote would be kickass for gardening or fishing, or BBQing... not too sure about the crocheting one, though. But this is what Nintendo needs to do. Look at what older people do for fun and then start making games about those things.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Only adding and never removing is a bad idea, it accumulates unnecessary features and leads to bad design. If the Wiimote had two analog sticks on it, would it still be ergonomic? Should it have handles like a GC controller? Should you need two hands to hold it? Sony demonstrated why you can't just add: The Sixaxis is a mess of incompatible features, its motion control is hindered by its awkward shape that is necessary for it to work like a traditional gamepad. As you add more and more features you get the NGage, a device with several functions, all of which have conflicting requirements for the form factor.

Quoted for truth.

Feature creep. PS3. Apatasaurus. Windows. More is not necessarily better.

I agree with you Ian and BigJim about the viability and worth of traditional gaming. But stasis is death, and survival will always include adaptations that are better in many respects, and worse in some.

I think that even Nintendo agrees with you. That's why the earliest prototypes they had had the Wiimote as detachable from an ordinary, traditional controller.

But ultimately, I think that the Wiimote is showing its worth, as a philosophy, control system, killer app, and as an entirely new species in the world of gaming.

Don't worry about traditional gaming though. The Dinosaurs didn't die out. They just evolved into birds.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Chozo Ghost
Nintendo could do an even better job of attracting older demographics. Wii Sports is a good thing, but I see there is a Crossword Puzzle game for the DS out now. That's the kind of thing that appeals to older generations. For Mom, Nintendo could unleash a gardening or a crocheting game. For Dad, Nintendo could come out with a BBQ simulator, or (heaven forbid) a Mario fishing game.

I'm dead serious about those suggestions. The Wii-mote would be kickass for gardening or fishing, or BBQing... not too sure about the crocheting one, though. But this is what Nintendo needs to do. Look at what older people do for fun and then start making games about those things.

Oh dear god. Do you WANT to rile up the hardcore traditional gamers on this forum?!?!?!

[Bill Aurion]

"Don't worry about traditional gaming though. The Dinosaurs didn't die out. They just evolved into birds."

So instead of dying out they are just going to fly away, am I right? =3

[ThePerm]

i have just thought of the joystick lock, basically a dpad is on the top of the joystick, and all you do is press the joystick in for it to be stationary

[Ian Sane]

"I see there is a Crossword Puzzle game for the DS out now. That's the kind of thing that appeals to older generations."

Why pay for a DS and a crossword puzzle game for a couple hundred bucks total to do something that comes in the morning paper you're likely already subscribing to anyway?  I see stuff like crosswords or sudoku or word searches in a videogame as overkill because it's so easy to do it the "real" way.  Same with boardgames.  If the real experience and the fake one are exactly the same and difference in cost isn't an issue(or the real experience is cheaper) why ever do the fake experience?  Madden works because there's a fantasy involved - playing in the NFL.  If I want to do the crossword I'll do the f*cking crossword.  No simulated videogame crossword needed.  Virtual virtual skeeball anyone?

Though old people do seem to like doing chores.  Considering how often my neighbours mow their lawn, paint their fence, cut down trees, plant new trees, remodel, redecorate and just generally f*ck around with their house fixing that which was never broken in the first place I imagine many people over 40 enjoy spending their leisure time working their balls off.  Either that I'm Mr. Efficiency since I manage to get things done with time to spare.

[Deguello]

That's pretty a judgmental assessment of another age set, Ian.  Are doing crosswords on the DS unacceptable?  What DS-related activies would this age set have to perform in order to be accepted as legitimate members in this club that they no nothing about?

[Chozo Ghost]

Ian, your point about the real puzzles being as easy and even cheaper makes sense but there are other things to consider. You only get one crossword in each newspaper per day, and in some that is only once per week. What if someone wanted to play more at a time? Plus there could be other bells and whistles such as music and animations and whatever. What about online play? The ability to time your games? You can do a lot of these things manually, but having a game with the features included isn't a bad idea.

Also, in the end while your point certainly makes sense, the developers behind these games don't care as long as it sells. They see a really simple game that requires relatively low budget to make, and a vast audience which eats that sort of thing up.

And I know it doesn't make sense why people would want to play a game that is essentially about doing chores, but isn't that the entire basis for Animal Crossing? That game sells like crazy, even though by your logic it shouldn't.

[Spak-Spang]

Also being able to have a Crossword puzzle tell you when an answer is wrong would really help you solve the puzzle, without wasting endless time trying to figure what answer is wrong or misspelled.  Crossword Puzzles need a great interface like the DS to make it better.

Imagine having a DS version of Crossword Puzzles with 100 puzzles or more...and a daily download puzzle that can be timed and ranked online.

It would be an awesome system seller for the right people.  Who would have thought Brain Age would have been so successful.  One reason it gathered so much popularity was its Sudoku puzzles it had...and the easy interface to solve the puzzles.

[Mashiro]

Given Sega's horrible track record as of late it's hard to take their opinion of things seriously.

Nintendo's gamble in expanding the market payed off in a big way with DS and Wii and I will be the first to admit, when DS first came out I was annoyed. I didn't see the advantage of the touch screen. Yet, when the system matured and we started getting quality games that take advantage of the screen (Elite Beat Agents was my system serller) you can see just how revolutionary new methods of play can really open up doors. New game possibilities come to light and the market expands, it's a good thing.

Wii will have the same thing, right now there are some decent games that take full advantage of the Wiimote but IMHO none are really as fun as Wiisports. But hey the system is young. If the Wii goes like the DS (which I think it will) eventually developers will start to grasp the unique control set up more and we will have games that can only exist on the Wii that are insanely fun and superior to any traditional controlling game.

I still say a great example of this would be a Star Wars Light Saber battle game, if made well it would probably be one of the coolest (albeit geekiest lol) games for the system, and hey you can't do that on 360 of PS3.

Breaking the mold is a good thing and truthfully the Wiimote is a step in the right direction to making better games. It isn't a fad, just a step towards how games will be played in the future.

[that Baby guy]

Sonic Rivals 2, on the PSP.  Anyone know the sales of the first?  I heard it got rated bad and sold bad.

[Mashiro]

According to Wikipedia it got a 66% average rating out of 28 reviews. Couldn't find the sales numbers though.

Fun fact of the day: It's made by a canadian company called  Backbone Entertainment and not sonic team.