Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[Hocotate]

I enjoy both SSB and Melee, I like how they are different. Brawl can be more like either of them and I will be happy, of course if its more new than similar thats even better!

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but the fighting game community is pretty dead set on this agreement, and they love melee for its depth.

From what I'm seeing in the fighting game community, Melee is not very accepted. SFIII, MVC2, KOF, GG, maybe some MOW, or CVS2, but never (or rarely I should say) is smash bros played competitively within fighting game circles or communities. It not being in the arcade = them not caring. Do some play it? of course, but from what I have seen the majority in this niche dislike the game.  

[Luigi Dude]

Yeah, the hardcore fighting crowd is probobly the only group of gamers I've seen that really hate Smash Bros, both the original and Melee.  Now I've seen a few people that dislike it but it seems like the fighting fans have a deep hatred for the series.

I think it comes down to this sense of elitism where because they know how to do all these 30 button moves to create big 1000 hit combos, they view Smash Bros as a joke because of it's simplistic system.

[Nephilim]

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Originally posted by: Luigi Dude
Yeah, the hardcore fighting crowd is probobly the only group of gamers I've seen that really hate Smash Bros, both the original and Melee.  Now I've seen a few people that dislike it but it seems like the fighting fans have a deep hatred for the series.

I think it comes down to this sense of elitism where because they know how to do all these 30 button moves to create big 1000 hit combos, they view Smash Bros as a joke because of it's simplistic system.

I disagree totally

real reason is the community, heck i even cringe at gamefaqs and smashboards

[Luigi Dude]

I've been to several fighting boards and all I ever hear is them talking about how both Smash Bros are very shallow and how they'd rather play Street Fighter and King of Fighters anyday.

But I agree the online Smash community is pretty bad.  Oh God, the Smash Bros board on Gamefaqs and SmashBoards hurt my head just reading the topic titles.  I mean I've seen stupidity, but those places take it to a whole new level.

[Amodaus1]

Acttually, The evolution fighting game tournament for 2005 tried to get Smash brother in its roster, as it was the first year they would be using consoles for their tournament (because sometimes the acrade machines would break down, or the joy sticks would break off and maitenence took like 3 - 4 hours). Anyway, Nintendo was approached and declined to have smash brothers put into the tournament, so they did not put the game within the tournament. Despite what you may think, many in the hardcore crowd wanted smash brothers in that tournament. ALSO despite what you think, most hardcore fighting gamers hate KING OF FIGHTERS, they see no depth to the game. It's mainly about street fighter III third strike, and classic street fighter II, as well as some 3D fighters like virtua fighter, and they play MvC CvS(although no one really uses the SNK character as the capcom characters over shadow them, capcom played favorite when they developed the game) and GG.

Also smash boards is not bad, esspecially for people looking to get into the deeper aspects of melee. Once you learn enough from the boards, you obviosly need to upgrade to competitive play and videos of skilled players to improve even more.

EDIT: I wanna edit this, because it makes me sound like i'm saying you guys are wrong. Let me correct myself. The fighting game community does not really accept smash brothers. You guys are right, they generally hate it. However, within the community there are a select few of us who do enjoy the game (i shouldn't say few, theres alot acctually, but i'm talking about overall). And within this group of us who like the game, we find melee to be superior in almost every facet.  

[zakkiel]

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But overall there is MUCH more depth to melee. The very fact that you can AIR DODGE and thus make edge gaurding harder is proof of this depth. Wave-dashing, which is the offensive/defensive manuveering of melee, cannot even be produced in the original. Fast falling doesn't exist in the original, so shuffling doesn't either. The addition of a new special move for all character, and addition of charged attack, an overall addition of lag time spikes and lag time meteor air attacks which requires MORE SKILL and TIMING to land than simply cordinating the button combination. Theres more that i could go into, like the powered down throws that make you work for the kill, or set up juggles and combos, or the reflecting by power shielding, OR the ABILITY TO GRAB ITEMS MID AIR, or the ability to hook-shot onto ledges. MELEE offers MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more than the original, more then just speed and characters, it offers way more depth.

Once again, your argument is that Melee had more stuff, and therefore more depth. And again, this is wrong. The limited range of options in SSB and slower time allowed you to plan much farther in advance, thus lending itself to strategy. Melee had too many potential responses to do this; it prioritized developing the right set of reflexes. Reflexes were necessary in SSB, but they were the start point rather than the end point.

Since this is all abstract theorizing, let me put it this way. In SSB, a player with even a a slight edge could end a 5-stock dual with 5 lives with reasonable frequency. In Melee, this almost never happens - something's gonna put you down at least two lives, unless its a noob v. expert match. Ergo, skill is that much less decisive, and luck is that much more important.

[Amodaus1]

you must be joking.

If by plan you mean throw to KO, then your right.
If by plan you mean abuse the no air dodge system for item ko's off the edge, then your right.
If by plan you mean the inate slowness of the game due to hardware limitations, then your right.
If by plan you mean broken characters like kirby who have a spike that was completely unreasonable in his dair, and his UpB, or jiggly who could rest 75% of the time with dair.
If you mean by plan, the inaability to spot dodge so dA smash will hit a roll always then your right.


Oh but you could plan juggles in the original, because the LACK of fast fall made it easy as HELL to calculate where a person would float to, thus making air kills with certain character like jiggly and fox easy as pie.

Oh and you could calculate where to hit them, because lack of short hops didn't give you mobility, and that means your going to setup the same point of contact, means you know where to defend, always, so you don't need to look at the player, just look at the platform and the level of contact to where you assume you'll be made, then spike at that point, and you'll be saved

Oh and your right, i did mention a bunch of stuff they added, because the stuff they added ADDED DEPTH. Adding stuff that is pointless, is adding stuff, adding stuff that ADDES DEPTH is adding depth my friend. And they fixed characters, so thats adding depth

And they fixed L-canceling, more adding of depth, cause now you can't dair or fair spam and hop out of a gaurd grab.
And throws aren't insta dewath at 70-80% i gotta drive that point home, cause guarenteed kills by throiw is noobly, you should work for that kill with skill.

Smae with spikes, delay to spikes allows for more skill, as it requires PLANNING and TIMING to pull off, mean reason people suck with kirby in melee, is the can't nail his new delayed spike.

I love SSB and melee, but what you think is fine, it is not right however.  

[TEM]

I don't mean to be a grammar Nazi, Amodaus1; but if you are going to write such long posts all the time take ten seconds to copy and paste it into something with a spell check because God damn.

[NWR_pap64]

Wow, a a heated discussion about the depth of Smash Brothers, and Smash_Brother isn't around to throw his 2 cents in... :p

Anyways, I always thought the depth of the game came from the simplicity of the engine. I'm a big fan of fighters and SSB is one of the simplest fighters yet, but the depth comes from the creativity you put into it. The game has a freedom traditional fighters lack, allowing you to be your own unique fighter, despite the character you chose to play as.

I admit I am not a master SSB player, but I have seen many a heated SSB match with some awesome fighters (S_B included) to know this.

To sum it up, SSB is easy to pick up, very hard to master.

[Amodaus1]

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Originally posted by: TEM
I don't mean to be a grammar Nazi, Amodaus1; but if you are going to write such long posts all the time take ten seconds to copy and paste it into something with a spell check because God damn.

My bad i got heated.

[zakkiel]

OK, I'll try to ignore the hysteria here and respond reasonably.

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If by plan you mean throw to KO, then your right.
If by plan you mean abuse the no air dodge system for item ko's off the edge, then your right.
If by plan you mean the inate slowness of the game due to hardware limitations, then your right.
If by plan you mean broken characters like kirby who have a spike that was completely unreasonable in his dair, and his UpB, or jiggly who could rest 75% of the time with dair.
If you mean by plan, the inaability to spot dodge so dA smash will hit a roll always then your right.

I could talk about how each of these limitations enabled you to think ahead; about how setting up the throw could take five or six moves; about the fact that Nintendo has said it plans to go back to slower game play (sucks to be you, I guess); and about how the difficulty of recovering from off-stage heightened the preceding game. But this is pointless.

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Oh but you could plan juggles in the original, because the LACK of fast fall made it easy as HELL to calculate where a person would float to, thus making air kills with certain character like jiggly and fox easy as pie.

So don't get caught.

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And they fixed L-canceling, more adding of depth, cause now you can't dair or fair spam and hop out of a gaurd grab.

Yes, dair and fair spamming are most definitely fixed now. Sriously though, I'm not gonna claim that nothing in Melee was an improvement. On the other hand, the wavedashing glitch more than makes up for it.
And throws aren't insta dewath at 70-80% i gotta drive that point home, cause guarenteed kills by throiw is noobly, you should work for that kill with skill. So don't get thrown. See a pattern? Plan ahead. Be the one on the inside of the curve, rather than the outside. In SSB, you had to plan around your opponent's plans. In Melee, you just react faster.

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Smae with spikes, delay to spikes allows for more skill, as it requires PLANNING and TIMING to pull off, mean reason people suck with kirby in melee, is the can't nail his new delayed spike.

Timing: yes. Planning: no. And the main reason most people suck with Kirby is that he sucks. Check the tiers.

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Oh and your right, i did mention a bunch of stuff they added, because the stuff they added ADDED DEPTH. Adding stuff that is pointless, is adding stuff, adding stuff that ADDES DEPTH is adding depth my friend. And they fixed characters, so thats adding depth

Now you're just making a mockery of yourself. It's the Goebbels approach to argument: make the same statement enough times, and they just have to believe you!

This is threatening to become farcical, so I will leave it here. We obviously had very different experiences of the original. I hope we both enjoy SSBB.

[Artimus]

I don't enjoy either game. And I doubt I'll enjoy any of the sequels either.

But that's just because I dislike fighters.

Carry on.

[Amodaus1]

Sigh, I'm going to have to drop this arguement.

When your main counter-point is "DON'T GET CAUGHT" thats about when you know that you don't have much of an arguement. Thats like saying don't get shot in an fps. seriously, that logic is great.

Your second counter point of, setting up a throw by doing 5 or 6 moves, well it IS done in melee. So i don't know whats your point, what is done in one is done in the other, but it forces to you to think EVEN further ahead because that throw will NOT be a guarenteed kill.

Its a fighter. You will get thrown, you will get juggled, and you will get hit. The masters do lose to other masters and its not cause they suicide... Its becuase they get thrown and juggled and smashed... So please, a silly arguement like "do't get thrown" will not hold up, same as the "don't get juggled" arguement is absurd.

Melee is deeper, most people believe so, i don't need to argue with you, because tournaments for the original i have NEVER seen, but for melee there are a few.

Furthermore, difficulty of getting on the stage is just as bad in melee. You just have more options opening you up for more oprotunities. If you don't know this, it might be becuase you suck at the game. Just because you can't hit a spike now, or delay yourself action past the air dodge, doesn't mean it can't be done. If anything the brokeness of SSB is fixed in melee, but the ability to edge guard is as brutal as ever.

Yeah kirby sucks in the TIERS, i know this, however, noobs are noobs and tiers don't apply to them, and they complain pretty hard about how kirby sucks. They just can't time his spikes, thats all. Kirby contains the most spikes in the game, by technical term spike, he's still a beast.

And tiers aren't everything, in 2004 someone placed second with BOWSER and bowser is very very low teir. So please, cite tiers like you should, tier shows advantage amongst an equal playing field and amongst equal players, and tiers represent how a character is classically and generally played. If some how i revolutionized Zelda play by finding out you can wave-dash and give her a mysterious 4th jump, she would shoot up in tiers, new tactics and gameplay style change the tiers, thats why tiers are remade EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Fox Shiek Marth were top tier in 2005, in 2006 its Fox and Falco. Case and point, kirby is good, not many pros use him because he doesn't pose the easiest learning curve, and his disadvantages may equal his advantages, and most players opt for characters whose advantages outwiegh their disadvantages. This however, does not mean i will not wreck you with kirby in melee, it just mean kirby was GODMODE in the vanilla, with easy spikes that required no calculation, just follow him off the edge and spike ahoy! or do your up-B near the edge, if only the down slice catches your opponent, its a no brainer, easy as pie spike.

They can go backwards (like you claim they are, and it wouldn't suck to be me, i play the original too, i enjoy the game and premise, i was just blown away by how deep melee was) but after watching the last updated video with fox wavedashing, I highly doubt it. Either way i'll enjoy the game, but i can't be sure about you.

You can argue further, but i'm done.

Edited: Hopefully i caught a majority of those spelling errors
     

[Adrock]

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So don't get caught.... So don't get thrown.

That's not strategy. You're basically saying, "Be better at the game."

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In SSB,  In Melee, you just react faster.

Well, that's not true. I don't know how you can say that the same can't be done in Melee. Reacting faster doesn't win matches. It won't help a slower character beat a faster one. Instead, as you suggested, you "plan around your opponent's plans." The dodging system is part of that. Dodging can save you, but can also leave you open for attack. That balance (deciding the right time and which dodge to use) requires strategy.

[Ceric]

So... How about adding Bonk...

[Hocotate]

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1
ALSO despite what you think, most hardcore fighting gamers hate KING OF FIGHTERS

I stoped reading here, you don't know what you're talking about.

edit--
Anyway, anyone remember the rumors that Game&Watch along with another character were getting the axe? I also remember talk of Baby Bowser being "confirmed" back a few months ago (obviously this was false), but I think Baby Bowser with the ability to transform into liquid Mario w/ the paintbrush would be great! I know I've already said this, but the Duck Hunt Dog is another on my wish list.

[Viewtiful mario]

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Originally posted by: Ceric
So... How about adding Bonk...

or Rayman

With this argumanet going on I'd have to say I agree with Amodaus1 more since I agree with everything he says.

[NWR_pap64]

Sorry to bump this, but with the HUGE announcement of DQ IX being a Nintendo exclusive it occurred to me...I wouldn't be surprised if they include a DQ character (either from the DS game or from the other games in the series) as promotion of the game coming to the DS.

[Amodaus1]

I doubt it, just becuase Snake is the only confirmed 3rd party character and Kojima wanted him in the game. I don't think the guys who make DQ are hounding nintendo to put their characters in the game. Kojima acctually loves smash brothers, thats why he put asked for snake to be in the game.

Either way, i think putting characters in smash might acctually be a way of subliminal advertising, i know thats why i was originally intrested in fire emblem, because i got to play with marth and roy and wonder which game they came from and if it was any good. Don't be surprised if we get some sort of Kid Icurus revival if smash sells through the roof, and it probably will.

[Nephilim]

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Originally posted by: Hocotate

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1
ALSO despite what you think, most hardcore fighting gamers hate KING OF FIGHTERS

I stoped reading here, you don't know what you're talking about.

I think its partly true, there is a new bread of street fighter fans, which sudden became "hardcore" after alpha3 was released for ps2/xbox
who arnt aware of great fighting games like kof

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1
I doubt it, just becuase Snake is the only confirmed 3rd party character and Kojima wanted him in the game. I don't think the guys who make DQ are hounding nintendo to put their characters in the game. Kojima acctually loves smash brothers, thats why he put asked for snake to be in the game.

Either way, i think putting characters in smash might acctually be a way of subliminal advertising, i know thats why i was originally intrested in fire emblem, because i got to play with marth and roy and wonder which game they came from and if it was any good. Don't be surprised if we get some sort of Kid Icurus revival if smash sells through the roof, and it probably will.

Actually, Sakurai mentioned that he might two or three more third party characters in the game, plus there was the rumor that Ubi submitted 4 possible characters to be selected to represent them. Plus, with Snake breaking the rule of no third party characters being in the game you know the first character in people's minds is Sonic and I wouldn't be surprised if they are already working with the negotiations.

Sakurai also mentioned that in order to include a third party character the games must have appeared at least three times on a Nintendo console, meaning that they ARE considering adding some more third party characters in.

I don't expect more than 5, since this IS all about Nintendo, but considering we have Snake it would be very weird not to see anyone else in the roster.

[Amodaus1]

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Originally posted by: pap64

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Originally posted by: Amodaus1
I doubt it, just becuase Snake is the only confirmed 3rd party character and Kojima wanted him in the game. I don't think the guys who make DQ are hounding nintendo to put their characters in the game. Kojima acctually loves smash brothers, thats why he put asked for snake to be in the game.

Either way, i think putting characters in smash might acctually be a way of subliminal advertising, i know thats why i was originally intrested in fire emblem, because i got to play with marth and roy and wonder which game they came from and if it was any good. Don't be surprised if we get some sort of Kid Icurus revival if smash sells through the roof, and it probably will.

Actually, Sakurai mentioned that he might two or three more third party characters in the game, plus there was the rumor that Ubi submitted 4 possible characters to be selected to represent them. Plus, with Snake breaking the rule of no third party characters being in the game you know the first character in people's minds is Sonic and I wouldn't be surprised if they are already working with the negotiations.

Sakurai also mentioned that in order to include a third party character the games must have appeared at least three times on a Nintendo console, meaning that they ARE considering adding some more third party characters in.

I don't expect more than 5, since this IS all about Nintendo, but considering we have Snake it would be very weird not to see anyone else in the roster.

Wow i didn't know the creator confirmed there would be more 3rd party characters in the game. I really thought he only put in snake cause kojima loved the game and harrassed him. I mean its not like konami really supports nintendo home consoles much, and the MGS the cube got wasn't even made by Kojima's studio or konami.

But this is good news, not only because of the characters, but it could get some popularity for 3rd party titles that have the characters they add into the game, and maybe get the wii a tad more support
 

[Madcat221]

I'm predicting that if an Ubi character makes it in, Rayman will be the one.

[segagamer12]

Ok so I FINALLY got aroudn to watching the video of this game. I was holding off because I sold my SSBMellee to a guy I owed a lot of money and dind't want to get too anticipated for this game, but me and a friend were looking for that southpark episode where cartmen wants a Wii and we stumbled upon the game trialer and I gavein and watched it.


DAMN YOU NINTENDO FOR NOT MAKING THIS LAUNCH TITLE! Now I have to wait and I was fine witht hat not seeing previews for it now I am back to waiting again.  

[Spak-Spang]

I actually believe the quote about 3rd party characters went more like:  The number of characters for the game is already locked, but 2 or 3 more third party characters could be in the game.

That means, that there is a potential NO other 3rd party characters are in the game.

It could also mean that more than 2-3 more are in the game.  If Snake was already confirmed and placed in the game before we even knew about the game...why couldn't other characters also be put in the game?

Though most likely it means that only 2-3 more character beyond Snake will be in the game.