Topic: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[ZeldaWarlord]

As much as i absolutely love the idea of having a pick up and play game like original smash, i do think that this game is going to be more complex and strategic than the latest installment... i think nintendo already has the right idea with making pick up and play games like Warioware available, and now should focus on a much more hardcore game and bring us Super Smash... I think most of us would really appreciate a hardcore game to play on our Wiis following a rather hardcoreless opening (excluding Zelda)

And after all the years of people still playing games like Marvel vs Capcom with megaman, i think it would be amazing to have a new installment

Speaking of Marvel vs Capcom, did anyone notice what looked like combo moves/cutscene moves in one of the trailers... e.g. the Link Triforce thing and Mario's Giant Fire Wave...  have they described the actual function of moves like these, or are we led to believe they are finishing moves, combo moves, or some kind of item based attacks?

[Bill Aurion]

They are item-based attacks...(The item is a glowing SSB symbol...)

That said, I sincerely doubt the game will be any more complex than Melee is...It just can't get any more complex without completely destroying what SSB is...

[Amodaus1]

I highly disagree, the game can still get more complex.

If you watch the latest trailer for brawl where fox appears at the end, you can clearly see a wave-dash. Just like L-canceling with the original, the creators have taken the wave-dash glitch and appropriately balanced it, and hopefully made it more accesable (timing wise) for all player now. They most likely improved the input for fast falling (at least i hope you don't need to double tap down anymore). There is alot more they can do with the game.

As for those "CUT SCENE ATTACKS" like mario's gaint fireballs, and link's 50 slashes, or kirby's boiling pot. Those are item based attacks, however, they are another step in pulling melee closer to a conventional but yet unconventional 2D fighter, as they arguablly resemble individual character supers. Conventional in the sense that they are supers, unconventional in the fac tthat there is no super meter dervided for them. See, theres tons more room for innovation and depth in the game still. Just wait for a tag in mode, or tag supers and such, it will all come.  

[zakkiel]

On the day that happens, I will burn Nintendo to the ground. Everything that is good in Smash comes from its simplicity. It pared away the garbage that infests 2-D fighters to create the most compelling multiplayer gameplay formula ever devised in a video game. I would rather see the series end than see it add that crap in. Fortunately, I doubt Nintendo will alter the core gameplay much. They've already tacitly admitted that they want to go back to something more like the original than Melee.

[Amodaus1]

yes, but then why would there be wave-dashing in the lastest video?

and you can have your simplicity, no one is forcing the high level play onto you. That is what makes smash great.

[Hotdiggedydemon]

My pics:

Viewtiful Joe
Banjo Kazooie
Earthworm Jim
Bomberman
Toad
Skull kid (wearing Majoras Mask)
Sonic
Tails (a slower clone version of sonic)
Captain Olimar

Sonics down B move would obviously be that spindash they added in Sonic 2... and since Sonic 2 and Smash bros are both sidescrollers it would translate PERFECTLY

AND IF WINDWAKER LINK IS NOT IN THERE I SWEAR I KILL EVERYONE AT NINTENDER. his up B would be like Peaches up B (the umbrella) but instead, with the Deku leaf. HE TOTALLY FLOATS WITH IT

[Smoke39]

Quote
Originally posted by: ZeldaWarlord
As much as i absolutely love the idea of having a pick up and play game like original smash, i do think that this game is going to be more complex and strategic than the latest installment... i think nintendo already has the right idea with making pick up and play games like Warioware available, and now should focus on a much more hardcore game and bring us Super Smash... I think most of us would really appreciate a hardcore game to play on our Wiis following a rather hardcoreless opening (excluding Zelda)

I'd like some hardcore games as much as the next gamer, but the reason I actually like SSB is because it is so much easier to pick up and play than conventional fighters.  

[Adrock]

Super Smash Bros. was easier to pick up and play, but Melee was just a better game. The original was basically a beat-em-up while Melee required strategy.

As Amodaus1 suggested, Melee allows for simplicity; it simply has more depth than its predecessor. It succeeded in being easy to play and difficult to master.  It's a delicate balance. Smash is one of those series that needs some level of complexity. If it's too simple, why bother?

[Smoke39]

Melee was inferior because they wrecked Link's boomerang.

[ZeldaWarlord]

Okay, saying that melee was inferior for any reason like this weapon sucked, or its too fast, or i couldn't beat my best friend anymore is just ignorant... its a totally different game

If i were to complain that Mario doesn't jump like he does in Mario64 so SuperSmashOriginal Sucks then all of you would call me a dumbass and ignore anything i say...

complexity doesn't ruin a fighting game

overcomplexity does

I personally trust Nintendo to know that giving each person 30 special attacks isn't what the games need, even though some kids might say that would be awesome.  

Nintendo is interested in MAKING a great game just as much as we are interested in PLAYING one.   I guess thats what i mean when i said i hoped it was more complex.   Truthfully a decent storyline would be fantastic.   But let me tell you, i can garuntee if you want it to be just like Original or just like Melee you WILL be sorely dissapointed.

[Smoke39]

Quote
Originally posted by: ZeldaWarlord
If i were to complain that Mario doesn't jump like he does in Mario64 so SuperSmashOriginal Sucks then all of you would call me a dumbass and ignore anything i say...

1: That's not really analogous to what I said.
2: I was kidding anyway (though they did wreck Link's boomerang ;b).

[Madcat221]

As long as they have Zelda and her ridiculously overpowered attacks, I'll be set.  Nothing's more satisfying than going "OMG OMG U GOT BEATED BY A GUUUUUURL" to my buds after the sparkley magic sends 'em flying.

As for the "spectacular special moves", it was stated before that it's an item-based attack, acquired by picking up a flaming Smash Bros icon, from what was gathered from the vid.

[zakkiel]

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Super Smash Bros. was easier to pick up and play, but Melee was just a better game. The original was basically a beat-em-up while Melee required strategy.

Now that's what I call ignorant.

[ZeldaWarlord]

PS. Smoke39 i wasn't saying that you were ignorant, you just happened to be a post before me, there are TONS of people that have said basically the same thing, and i knew you were joking cause the boomerang is pretty insignificant

and zakkiel, if you are going to call me ignorant try backing it up with um.... something, anything.... did you see how long my posts are... random flaming is what i call ignorant, so try using the keyboard a little next time to convey some of those things kept in your brain instead of just blabbing what you think with no support.  

I can see where Smash Original took a lot of strategy, believe me i get my butt handed to me every day by the guys across the hall, but the depth of Melee made it MORE strategic... now please call me ignorant again, cause i enjoy seeing people get upset when i make fun of their favorite games and they have no reason to disagree other than that it IS their favorite and its the best game EVA....

[Spak-Spang]

I don't think the original is remotely comparable to a beat-em-up.  If you say that then you have to say Melee is a Beat-em-up too.  Melee may have added strategy and technique...but it is basically the same formula and same game as the original.  Neither are beat-em-ups.

I may be the odd ball out.  But I actually preferred the fact that the original had very few actual combos or complex moves to learn.  I liked the fact that is was simply jumping around trying to knock your friends off a single level with almost everyone having equal footing.  I liked the power of the throws, though I would agree they were too powerful, Melee made them too weak though.  I like the idea of a game based with a strong throwing mechanic.

What I liked about Melee.  A more robust dodge and counter strike system.  But this system also wasn't perfect because slower characters were screwed by these techniques and their own dodge and counter strike was not nearly quick enough.  I loved the additional types of throws, but felt in the end, the nerfing they did to the throws counter acted their usefulness too much.  

What I love best about Melee was the huge amount of characters, and levels that lived and breathed the awesomeness of Nintendo completely throughout.  No other game I have played felt so wonderful for a Nintendo fan.

I think a blending of the two games is quite possible...and adding new elements can make the game feel original and different.  For example we already know air combos are going to be a bigger part of Brawl over the other two.  That adds complexity to the game fighting system, but doesn't have to be too difficult.  Whereas those Super Moves balance out the complexity by giving a powerful attack that makes it easier to get some KOs for beginners.

I also realize my opinion is based on the fact I personally had more fun with the original and got to share that game with my friends more.  

[Madcat221]

The nerfing of the throws in Melee was offset by the increase in the power of Smash moves.  It's called "Smash" Bros, afterall...

[zakkiel]

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and zakkiel, if you are going to call me ignorant try backing it up with um.... something, anything.... did you see how long my posts are...

Oh dear. I think someone just admitted to having multiple usernames on NWR.  

[ZeldaWarlord]

um, actually i just got my username like.... a week ago... im talking about the fact that any post i make is almost over 5 lines long... i really wish people didn't just constantly try to flame other people on ever forum ever...

Anyway, Spak-Spang i'm glad you ended that last post on the note you did.  Everything you said about the games was completely true, And i agree with everything you said.  And your last point is EXACTLY what i've been trying to get people to realize.  It is the same dynamic why there are people who say multiplayer in Halo 2 sucks cause they didn't spend the time to get used to it at all.  

I played Super Smash Original a ton, but then some kid stole mine about 2 years after it came out... so when Melee came out for GC i bought it and had no Original anymore to play on, now i have both again but i got used to Melee. I don't believe i ever said that either game was better than the other.  I just  said that one was more complex than the original.

Now you can yell at me that there were tons of different dynamics in Original and i just sucked at it, but that says nothing. Melee has more characters and more moves for each character, therefore its more complex.   I didn't say That Original was simple, i'm just stating the fact that Melee is more complex.

In my opinion a more complex game than Melee may be really cool, now it could be too complex and suck, but i think Nintendo can handle that balence.  My hope is that it will be more of the same smash brothers that we all love, with more characters, cooler looking moves, a decent story mode storyline wise, and maybe some sweet looking special attacks to make the game look all the more sweet.

[zakkiel]

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um, actually i just got my username like.... a week ago... im talking about the fact that any post i make is almost over 5 lines long... i really wish people didn't just constantly try to flame other people on ever forum ever...

 My previous post was the very first I've ever addressed to you. If someone writes a response that seems cryptically short, consider that there might be a reason for it before responding. And don't complain about a post flaming you when it quotes a completely different person.

[Amodaus1]

Back to the original question. I want them to make bowser a bit better in the new version. I liked him very much in melee, his air grab is awsome(and unique to him) along with his up-B and f-air. I wish they made him a bit better over all, or make him EVEN HEAVIER.

Anyone else dissapointed that snake is in the game?


And for complexity: Well its like i said before, the complexity will be there i'm sure, it's up to you individually to seek it out. No one willl force it onto you, and thats why Smash Brothers is great, it pleases everyone  

[Adrock]

Zelda Warlord, Zakkiel was calling me ignorant, not you.

In any case, I don't know how my opinions make me ignorant. I accept that other people, here being Spak-Spang, may like the original more. I disagree because I think Melee allows for more strategy which is one of the reasons I think Melee is a better game. I didn't mean that the original offered absolutely no strategy, just that Melee offered significantly more.

Anyway...

1. Link's boomerang was ruined. It's too weak in Melee.
2. I don't mind Snake. I'm just curious why they chose Sons of Liberty Snake. Gamecube was the only console not to get MGS2 in some form. I guess I just liked the Twin Snakes design (sans mullet) more.    

[Madcat221]

Re: Link's Boomerang:

The nerfing of his boomerang was more than made up for by the increase in power of his smash attack (he gets TWO!), and the hit power bonus to his upwards/downwards aerial attacks when timed right.  Link is the quintessential brawler; what he lacks in special B-button attacks he more than makes up for in A-button attacks.  He's heavy enough to endure hard blows, yet nimble enough to evade them.  Plus, there aren't many attacks that can get you un-surrounded quite like Link's spin attack.

Forget the boomerang; Link has a FREAKIN' SWORD while most of the others just have their fists.

Another great thing about Link is that you can opt for a smaller, far more nimble kid-sized version with very little re-training when the gametype demands it.  

[zakkiel]

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In any case, I don't know how my opinions make me ignorant.

They make you ignorant of the incredible depth SSB had to offer. I don't know what it means to say a game has "more strategy," but I do know what it means to say a game is deep: how much difference in skill level is possible. SSB offered a degree of skill differentiation I have never seen equaled in another game. I truly believe there is no limit to how good you can get at that game. And yet it is as simple to pick up and play as you can make a fighting game. SSBM has more stuff and more speed. Contrary to popular belief, this is not the same as depth.

[Amodaus1]

my friend you are dead wrong

melee took what was broken in the original and fixed it. Then they added new stuff, some of which was broken. But overall there is MUCH more depth to melee. The very fact that you can AIR DODGE and thus make edge gaurding harder is proof of this depth. Wave-dashing, which is the offensive/defensive manuveering of melee, cannot even be produced in the original. Fast falling doesn't exist in the original, so shuffling doesn't either. The addition of a new special move for all character, and addition of charged attack, an overall addition of lag time spikes and lag time meteor air attacks which requires MORE SKILL and TIMING to land than simply cordinating the button combination. Theres more that i could go into, like the powered down throws that make you work for the kill, or set up juggles and combos, or the reflecting by power shielding, OR the ABILITY TO GRAB ITEMS MID AIR, or the ability to hook-shot onto ledges. MELEE offers MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more than the original, more then just speed and characters, it offers way more depth.

Melee can be classified as a 2D fighter by the hardcore. The same cannot be said about the original. This may be the reason why you like it, and thats ok, but the fighting game community is pretty dead set on this agreement, and they love melee for its depth. You should visit smashboards.com to see some real depth and download some videos, esspecially the japanese fox on fox or falco videos, as they are the top tier characters of melee.  

[Smoke39]

Madcat, I wasn't saying that Link was a less powerful character because of what they did to his boomerang.  The point is that in SSB it was fun doing tricks with his boomerang, and they took that aspect of his character away in melee.