Topic: What do you want in Smash Bros. Revolution?

[zakkiel]

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i said in one post that if you're good iwth a character, you're good with a character; it comes down to the skill ultimately. balancing/unbalancing characters helps those who want to become skillful to the game. unless i practice with DK or Bowser i'll never win a match because the faster characters will kick my ass. if i go back and play the original smash, i would play no different with dk as i would with yoshi. agian, thats all just my opinion so let me be insane...its my thread!!!!

I have nothing against insanity, I just point it out when I see it. And I absolutely disagree that there was no difference between playing DK and Yoshi in the original. Play styles were every bit as different between characters in the original as they are now. Also, I don't understand how you can sat that lighter characters are whipping boys when the entire top tier is light- to medium-weight.

[EasyCure]

i notice a difference. everyone feels the same to me in smash1, as for the tier you speak of i dont add the lightweights to it. yoshies pichus and such are always the first to go flying, medium weights are at the top and the heavyweights can take the beatings but atleast within my circle of friends/competitors dont get as many ko's because theres always the lightwieght coming in and stealing it at the last second.  

[zakkiel]

Falco, Fox, and Sheik are all lightweights, so far as I'm concerned. Yoshi is not a lightweight by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't understand how anyone could play the original for any length of time at all and claim the characters were basically the same.  

[Kairon]

You guys know so much more than me about Smash Bros...

I just use Pikachu and 90% of the time the C-stick...

... I feel so inadequate.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Luffy1Piece]

As far as characters go, I'd like to see

Wario
9-Volt
Ashley
Jill
Andy
Ivan or Mia
Pit
Little Mac
Alice(Balloon Kid)
Takamaru
Goku & Chamu
Starfi
Stanley the Bugman
Classic Donkey Kong
Donkey Kong Jr.

I want to see this game do things that make it feel fresh and new and not just SSBM with prettier graphics. Perhaps a shift to being fully 3D with the Freehand Controller capabilities would allow many great new ideas to be implemented.

[Michael8983]

"Perhaps a shift to being fully 3D with the Freehand Controller capabilities would allow many great new ideas to be implemented."

I've always thought a Smash Bros game in the fully 3D style of Capcom's Power Stone would be awesome. But I don't know if I'd want it to replace the traditional Smash Bros style.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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Avinash Tyagi: I agree with you that we need more female players, but what other female characters does Nintendo have?    Daisy could become playable, but wouldn't she be similar to Peach? I guess you could change her up and make her a powerhouse.

They have a few characters who have been Japanese only up to this point, you see some of them as trophies in SSBM, also they could use Daisy as a variant character kind of like Luigi is a variant of Mario, and Peach is already a very strong fighter(arguably the best of the current female fighters).

[EasyCure]

i wonder what the controls would be like. i know in an older thread someone siad something along the lines or this:
do smash attacks by holding the controller to the left for a second or two and then swiftly swinging it to the right (sorry i cant give you credit it was so long ago)

how else could it take advantage of the controller though, or does anyone think it might go the Mario Kart DS route and be more traditional. the set up was so simple that adding motion sensing would only complicate it, atleast thats how i feel until someone can give me a good example. actually on second though turning the revmote into a big 3d analog stick would probably be he best way to go the more i think about it. control movement and blocking and pickingup/throwing items with the left hand (analog and z1/2) then you could have the revmote be your action hand. flick up + b or a for a move. maybe they could have more moves if they add diagnal angles to the mix. say you hold b for links arrow and you can then move it anywhere in a 180degree angle in front of you. shoot arrows straight up/down or at angles (like in soul caliber).
you could opt to use the larger A button and B triggers or to keep t hings simple, use the small b + a buttons near the bottom of the controller.

[Caterkiller]

You know EasyCure you just made me think of other ways they could add attacks. Other than the usual ups, downs, lefts, rights, and diagonals in between, a  thrust forward and back with the remote can add quite a few brand new A and B smash attacks. Probably attacking in what ever direction your character is facing. As a matter of fact I bet thats one of the new ways of play will see.

[Ceric]

I could really see the Revmote movement functions only used for Smashes and some other moves, like sidesteps, use the rumorred Nunchuku movement sensing.  This seems most intuitive to me.

[Nile Boogie]

Oh yeah Tag Battles and "tweaked" air combos!  

[Spak-Spang]

I think a really good combo system is definately needed.  Melee worked to include combos in the game, and they were somewhat successful, but I want a better combo system.  One that can caculate combos that hit several people and can transition even to completely different targets.

I don't them to just be push button stuff, but I want something that can calculate stringing moves together to hit several characters.

Perhaps count combos as normal, but also tally Strings in which it is how many successful hits on opponents you can do without getting hit or going 2-3 seconds without attacking someone.

[Kairon]

As long as the game is still very accessible to casuals, non-gamers, and gamers who just suck, I'm happy. Smash was an awesome game because it had something for everyone. Beginners could jump in and very quickly grasp the full breadth of the character's arsenal. And experts could use that arsenal strategically as only experts can, due to their expert timing and strategic positioning.

I LOVED Melee because it was, for once, a fighting game that WASN'T about pressing lots of buttons and stringing combos...much. Especially in 4-player matches, it was about strategy and placement and spatial relationships as much as anything else.

I am a Pikachu player. I use the c-stick. And I'm proud of it.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Hostile Creation]

I use the c-stick, but only if it's strategically sound.  Sometimes the speed of the c-stick makes the difference between getting a hit in and getting hit yourself.  It's a feature, and like any feature, it's only cheap if you abuse it.
I love Melee for exactly the same reason.  I can't stand most fighter games.

[Smash_Brother]

Videogame development cycles have these things called BUDGETS. Games are developed based around the budget available for the game and the time frame in which the game can be developed.

Hypothetical situation:

Say none of the trophies were ever created. That's hundreds of manhours which did not need to be paid to the artists so there's more money in the budget for other additions to the game.

What could these additions be? More levels, characters, testing for balance...generally anything which would enhance the multiplayer longevity of the game.

Anyone who says, "Oh, there wouldn't have been more characters/levels/balance if they hadn't pissed money away on developing the trophies." is a FOOL who clearly doesn't understand economics. With the time and money saved by not having the artists make these idiotic little trophies, I'm more than willing to bet we could have at LEAST given Ganondorf his own moveset, and that ALONE would have been worth scrapping the trophies.

If you weighted the total time played in SSB Single Player vs. total time played in multiplayer, I think you'll find that multiplayer is ahead by a healthy 200:1 ratio. My SSB cartridge logged over 700 hours of gameplay on it before we switched to melee. How often do you think single player was played after all the crap was unlocked? That's right: it WASN'T.

The trophies add NOTHING to the multiplayer gameplay. NOTHING. No one buys SSB so they can play it alone (unless so they can practice and get better against other players, something which happens better in vs. matches than "break the targets" mini-games).

What is the fascination with ensuring that EVERY game has a single player mode? World of Warcraft is probably the most successful MMORPG in the world, and it DOESN'T HAVE A SINGLE PLAYER MODE!!!!! WHOAMG!!!!!!!! You can't even PLAY the damn game OFFline!

SSB should be the BEST MULTIPLAYER EXPERIENCE THAT IT CAN BE. Want a single player experience on the Rev? Buy Twilight Princess, Mario 128, Red Steel, or any of the other dozens of games which are dedicated to offering an excellent single player experience.

SSB: Rev needs to be the BEST multiplayer game that it can be, ever, and if SSB: Rev has clones with textures that don't connect, Ganondorf doesn't have at least ONE goddamn bladed weapon, and there are over a thousand trophies to collect, then someone at HAL Labs needs to commit seppuko because they f*cking FAILED.

AI that learns is a good idea because it's the closest that someone with no online connection has to playing against opponents which will mimic human players. Beyond that, HAL can work on the single player aspect only after the multiplayer is so good it puts the game in the running for GOTY.

Halo outsold SSBM. A brand new franchise on a brand new console beat Nintendo's tried and tested franchise with a huge following.

SSB: Rev is going to be Nintendo's FLAGSHIP multiplayer WIFI title. If someone is going to buy a Rev to go online, this game is going to be the primary reason. This game NEEDS to kick ass and take NAMES in the multiplayer department, and if that means slacking on the single player offering, so be it.

[PaLaDiN]

Except that the reason multiplayer is ahead by a healthy 200:1 ratio is that singleplayer sucks so much.

Sorry, I don't condone making it suck even more. It can be salvaged into a healthy, fun experience... adventure mode was a step in the right direction, but singleplayer needs more work, not less.

[Kairon]

I get the strange feeling that when SSB Rev comes out, NONE of us will be happy...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It's called Ian Flu.

[Kairon]

You mean avIAN FLU? *achoo* uh-oh...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Quick we must quarantine him!

Get me the CDC

[Mario]

In SSBM i spent more time playing single player in the VS mode than the actual single player modes, i'd rather they didn't bother with more Adventure type sparkling innovations and just keep making the gameplay solid, so I can beat people up for hours and never get bored, either multiplayer or with 'bots', like SSBM.

[Spak-Spang]

Mario I think you are one of the few people that desire to play single player only in that means.

SSBM had a single player experience like that called the Event Battles.  They were brilliant in their challenge and design, but rewarded you for accomplishing the tasks, not just random you one this battle screen.

I think it is safe to say that the game will be polished and have solid gameplay (Nintendo usually doesn't have ass its big games.)  So the only question is going to be will we enjoy the control changes that come with the Revolution controller.  I believe we will.  I can see the control system really changing the entire experience for the better.

[Ceric]

The fact that both sides are so diehard on the issue and still say it was a good game mean that Hal in essential did deliver a complete package.  I hate to say this and make more people mad but as Nintendo fans we expect a complete package.  Nintendo has gotten us to expect a certian level of polish and if the trophies werent there I don't think that polish would have been up to snuff.  It's always the little things that amount to a greater whole.  Sure you're right if the trophies didn't exist then in theory they could have spent the man hours working on something else.

I liked getting trophies.  I don't like not having any rewards.  I don't play Smash now because it is very hard for me to find friends to play with and that makes it hard for me to achieve unlocking anything.  No achievement I don't see the point.  I don't play MMORPGs because I find that its very hard to find people to play with, I've tried most and most of the time I end up only doing the quests I can do alone (aka Single Player) because I can't find and sustain a party (Even PSO was the same way, I find a party finally and when I got lucky we have some really good runs or I get unlucky and they want to just stand and talk, and that did take the model that is argued for SSBRev).  Also grinding in anything interesting always takes forever and is super repetative, which was ok in PSO for some reason I don't know what Sega did but I've got over 100 hours logged on 1 character doing almost the exact same thing.  I do play epic RPGs, Mario Karts, Quirky DS games, etc.  All Single player.

I grew up playing Single Player.  To me it really is the heart of the game.  This is what they wanted to get across.  In SSBM Event and Adventure mode offered unique gameplay I couldn't get in Multiplayer.

Smash_Brother:  Comparing World of Warcraft to SSB is like comparing apple to oranges.  You would have been better with comparing StarCraft to SSB if you keep with Blizzard.  I prefer my games well rounded.  Especially Smash Brothers.  If they announced that it would only be Multiplayer style.  I don't care how good it is I won't pick it up.  It be like if you had to have Four people to play Four Swords or FF:CC.  You don't they have single player and are good that way too, though FF:CC would be better if they expanded the little stories they give you at the begining of the level each time you come back but I digress.

So in the end I think that things like the Trophies and the Single player are the Yellow imperfection in the Green Ring  that makes the whole kit and caboodle work as well as it does.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Anyone who says, "Oh, there wouldn't have been more characters/levels/balance if they hadn't pissed money away on developing the trophies." is a FOOL who clearly doesn't understand economics. With the time and money saved by not having the artists make these idiotic little trophies, I'm more than willing to bet we could have at LEAST given Ganondorf his own moveset, and that ALONE would have been worth scrapping the trophies.

Do you think the programmers and level designers spent even one moment just twiddling their thumbs?  They worked full time, probably crunch time, to get the game ready.  I know the old saying "time is money," but freeing up money in the budget DOES NOT free up extra time.  It may allow the hiring of additional programmers, but that does not always (or even usually) make work faster, as anyone in the business world will attest.  You'd have to keep the artists on the payroll anyway to animate all those new moves.

[Spak-Spang]

How about we move this conversation back to the original discussion topic.  What we want to see in Smash Bros. Revolution.

I would like to see some new items with more diversty in their benefits.

Legend of Zelda Items:

Mirror Shield:  Deflects all projectiles and absorbs damage from attacks blocked with it.  After it takes about 75-100% damage it breaks.  The Shield can also be used to attack by swinging it around.

Giant Hammer:  The Hammer can act like the Bat with Smash attacked.  But with a normal attack it reacts as a slow powerful attack causing massive damage percentage.  This weapon can't be thrown.  

Ocarina:  Allows a character to teleport once out of trouble.  

Various Lasers:

Bouncing Beam:  A gun whose blasts will bounce off of walls, shields, and such.  This weapon would be great for trick shots against opponents.

Short Range Spread Beam:  A staple of all shooting games is the spread shot.  Contra is the classic example of this gun.  Smash Brothers needs a short range version of this gun that shoots out a wide spread shot of 4 blasts which have a short range before they disappear.

Metroid Items:

Metroids should be like the Bob-Bombs.  They are unleashed on the field and attack the characters with the strongest life.  After causing knocked off its victim it will automatically move to another victim until killed.

Metroid Health items could replace some of the food items to allow more Metroid items in the mix.

Targeting Visor:  collect the targeting visor and projectiles and items you throw will automatically target the closest character to you.  It won't home in on the characters, but it will give you the ability to attack diagonially and such.

Various other elements.

I would like something new done with Pikachu.  I think it would be cool that if you allow him to take 150%-200% damage he can evolve into Ryachu.  This will cause Pikachu to be slower, but have more powerful attacks and be heavier (harder to knock off) Once evolved Ryachu can use healing items and stay the same.  If the character is killed Pikachu returns to the game.