Topic: Xbox 360 = awesome system

[JonLeung]

Wow, we're totally not talking about the Xbox 360 anymore...

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard that after Capcom Fighting All-Stars, that Capcom wouldn't make 2D fighting games anymore (other than rereleases), and that Street Fighter IV might actually be in 3D, but better than the weird EX series, however it wouldn't come out until at least after the 20th anniversary of Street Fighter.  Which I guess might not be that long from now, but it's been a while since III was new.  I would like to see more returning characters, and more intertwining stories.

If stories are going to be thrown out the window, I'd like to see a Marvel Vs. Capcom Vs. SNK.  I don't care who has the rights to whatever.  Make it happen!

I remember when I was really into MUGEN...that fighting game engine for the PC where you could make your own fighters, but most people just ripped characters from other games.  I threw them all together, I had 108 characters from different fighting games (and also some games that weren't fighting games).  Good times.

[Spak-Spang]

Jon:  Xbox sucks.  Umm...Ok.

Yeah, I haven't read anything on that, but if Capcom does that I think they will piss alot of people off.  Several fans have been thankful that Capcom has honored the series and kept it 2D.  But if Street Fighter goes 3D then Street Fighter 3 will one of the last great 2D fighter games, and will mark the eventual end of 2D fighers.

Though, it makes since that Capcom is taking their time and waiting to develop a GREAT 3D engine and game design for Street Fighter if it comes out in 3D.  They also better find away to keep that anime look and feel of the series or it will disappear within the mass of all the other 3D fighters.

I hope this doesn't happen.  2D is already almost dead, Capcom don't betray it as well.

[JonLeung]

Hence, play some King Of Fighters (and other SNK/Neo-Geo fighting games) and Guilty Gear.  Ignoring the KoF: Maximum Impact games, those series are keeping 2D going.  Don't know for how much longer, though.

All this talk about fighting games is making me want to play something right now.

[KDR_11k]

Personally I rank Melty Blood (ReACT) at #1 (and changed my avatar to reflect that, Kohaku could beat Ayane up any day of the week). It has simple controls, quite some variety (though some characters are just are just a character at a different point in the story (e.g. Arcueid looking normal and in her evil form)) and any imbalances and faults found were quickly remedied with a patch (the advantage of PC games, on a console you'd release #reload or Turbo to do that). A newbie can learn the moves in five minutes and start developing combos right away. Story's supposedly preetty good since it's a continuation or somesuch of the game Tsuki Hime, the story has a few branches with different endings each. I don't speak japanese so I don't have an idea of what's going on, though. There's rumours of Act Cadenza, the arcade version, being ported to the Dreamcast but so far it's PC only if you don't want to go to a japanese arcade.

Naruto, as Ty said, is easily the best fighting game on the Cube. Easy to pick up and no complex inputs necessary, what you need is tactics. While the same can be said about SSBM, that's a lot more confusing (especially with four players).

And am I the only one who wants to see a proper tournament mode as seen in One Must Fall 2097 again? That'd add quite some variety to Singleplayer...

[JonLeung]

One Must Fall 2097 (PC) rocks.  Another game worthy of recommendation if you like fighting games on the computer.

Too bad the 3D sequel, Battlegrounds, is among the ultimate in suckiness.  I heard they rushed it, which is evident in like five billion spelling errors, among other things.  And I wish they kept more of the 2097 characters.

I keep forgetting about the underdog games among the likes of Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat/Tekken/Soul Calibur/Dead Or Alive/etc.

[KDR_11k]

Battlegrounds sucks because they decided to go 3D 16 player online. That couldn't do anything but go wrong.

[blackfootsteps]

Quote
Originally posted by: Brandogg
I think you could easily rank MK2 over all the Street Fighters UP UNTIL Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, even though personally I'd rank MK2 over any SF game, but I don't see anyone agreeing with me there so I won't try convincing anyone how great it was.

I'll agree with everything you said! I was always horrible at SF

MKII is, i reckon, the best MK game by far.

And for Spak, try playing with Mileena / Kitana then with another character, sweeps and general moves are faster, especially noticeably with the sweep -> throw combo. I'll agree the characters aren't as varied as SF but there's enough there to work with.

EDIT: To be on-topic... my local shopping centre got an XBOX 360 display / tester unit yesterday. Woot!

 

[Spak-Spang]

Speed variations isn't variation its laziness.  The truth is, capturin live-action people for Mortal Kombat was expensive, so they milked the process so that they could make many characters for a cheaper cost.  I completely understand the decision, but it made the game less than spectacular.

I remember watching people play Mortal Kombat 2, and I thought to myself this game looks amazing.  (Seeing some of the really cool combos of Katana and Mileena, Scorpion and Reptile.)  Then I played the game, and I thought it controlled horrible, I thought the entire experience was too stiff.  

A fighting game is more than the overall gameplay I agree, and Street Fighter has failed in that regards, but the gameplay was always very solid.  More balanced than most.  Super Street Fighter 2 is one of the best fighters out there.  Then Street Fighter Alpha 2 was nice with its Custom Combo Supers, that really required you to know how best to link moves together.  Finally Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike went back to the basics of Street Fighter and really just tried to make a very polished very elegant fighting game.  

And I would never use those words to describe Mortal Kombat.  But, I will say this at least Midway released the Mortal Kombat games on the Cube, and Capcom has refused to put those games on Nintendo's Cube.  It really saddens me.  I wish Capcom would at least put it on the DS, so that we can play on the go.

[JonLeung]

Strange that they have Street Fighter rereleases on the GBA and DarkStalkers on the PSP but neither on the DS.  Maybe they felt like if they made a DS game, that they'd HAVE to use some of its features.

Maybe shout "Hadoken!" into the microphone if you're unable to do a basic quarter-circle + punch?  (I guess that wouldn't work for "Tatsumakisenpuukyaku!", which I always swear sounds like "Effective Budoken!" instead.  I don't even know how it's supposed to be Tatsu-etc.)

[blackfootsteps]

That's fair enough, I guess its pretty clear the devs were a tad lazy what with the palette swapping for the male /female /robotic ninjas. MK was a lot more basic than SF, less depth for sure.

I would love a DS SF game, it would be a good way to re-introduce myself to the series and the 2-D fighting genre as a whole. MKII and SSM:B (does that count?) are the only 2D fighters I've played in years, with Naruto GNT 4 my mainstay in 3D fighters.  

[Amodaus1]

Quote
Originally posted by: capamerica
King of Fighters also makes you invincible while standing up, Infact I really can't think of any fighting games that don't make you invincible while getting up. I mean really where is the fun in getting the person on the ground and just continueing to beat the crap out of them. Its not fun. It one of my pet-peves with Soul Calibur.

I love the fact in DoA that you can kick people out windows and down staris, It really adds to the game. I do admit that I find that it takes off to much life when these things happen, But most of the time its pretty hard to do this.

It really sounds like the only reason you hate this game is cause you keep getting your ass handed to you in it.

I absolutly hate all Street Fighter games. They are in my opinion the worst fighting games on the market. And all the Capcom Street Fighter clones also piss the hell out of me. I can deal with the VS. games cause their not as bad but they still suck a lot.

Oh and KDR to answer your question a while ago, I have played a bit of Naruto, but not enought to pass jugment on it and rank it. It was fun what little I played of it.

oh and I'm changeing my list a bit.
#1 Super Smash Bros
#2 Dead or Alive
#3 Soul Calibur
#4 King of Fighters (and other SNK Fighting Games)
#5 Tekken
#6 Guilty Gear
#7 Virtua Fighter
#8 Power Stone
#9 Mortal Kombat
#10 Project Justice
#11 Killer Instinct
#12 Bloody Roar (This one use to be much higher up on my list, then I played Bloody Roar 4)
#13-98 Anything I missed
#99 Dragon Ball Z Fighting games
#100 2D Capcom Fighting Games (Not including Street Fighter)
#? Street Fighter

2 things

1) Street fighter was the first 2d fighting gmae so all others (bar smash brothers) is a clone, so you should hate your SNK fighters as well

2) I was unclear in my logic, DoA is a 3D fighter, this is improtant to note as in every 2D fighter you are invincble on the get up from anyhwere from 1 to 3 frames (yes smash brothers is a 2D fighter so it pertains to it as well) This is a gold standard for 2D fight set by... Capcom... wow "No rly?" yes capcom set it no one changed it

BUT for 3D it is NOT customary to have invinciblity on the get up, as GET UP mind games are part of the game and so are okizina (Spelling) which is hitting grounded opponents, that is why in 3D fighters you can ukemi (spelling) or just ukemi (sp?) roll, attack, side evade all while grounded

i 2D fighter you options are more limited when grounded to just a basic roll, That is why you have invincibility on the get up for 2D and not 3D, now back to Doa sucking because it terminates a great aspect of 3D fighting games


By the way i did get my ass handed to me in my first match of DoA 3, but after i got the "mechanics" down i faired well against the owner who had played it for 2 yrs, the learning curve was small, a mere 2 hours

if you think Street fighter 3 or any SF for that matter is garbage by all means go search the web for evolution tornaments

anyway, i'm acctually an SNK fan boy, with all being said, that why i listed mark of the wolves as my number 3, the reason i COULDN'T place it any higher was because it ripped off SF3 with a whole new cast (but they kept terry) and just defend

[Amodaus1]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Speed variations isn't variation its laziness.  The truth is, capturin live-action people for Mortal Kombat was expensive, so they milked the process so that they could make many characters for a cheaper cost.  I completely understand the decision, but it made the game less than spectacular.

I remember watching people play Mortal Kombat 2, and I thought to myself this game looks amazing.  (Seeing some of the really cool combos of Katana and Mileena, Scorpion and Reptile.)  Then I played the game, and I thought it controlled horrible, I thought the entire experience was too stiff.  

A fighting game is more than the overall gameplay I agree, and Street Fighter has failed in that regards, but the gameplay was always very solid.  More balanced than most.  Super Street Fighter 2 is one of the best fighters out there.  Then Street Fighter Alpha 2 was nice with its Custom Combo Supers, that really required you to know how best to link moves together.  Finally Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike went back to the basics of Street Fighter and really just tried to make a very polished very elegant fighting game.  

And I would never use those words to describe Mortal Kombat.  But, I will say this at least Midway released the Mortal Kombat games on the Cube, and Capcom has refused to put those games on Nintendo's Cube.  It really saddens me.  I wish Capcom would at least put it on the DS, so that we can play on the go.

I agree with what you say about MK and SF3, personally i think SF will never go 3D, 2D is just more polished

I also equate MK to the Grand theft auto series of today, built for gore and violence and extremeness more then actual gameplay. I get bored of GTA very quickly, i don't think the missions are that diverse, most of the time i'm driving into a blue circle, or driving against a timer into a blue circle, i much rather play pikmin 2 then most games released on any other console, but unfortunatly most fighters are not on GC, at least nintendo made one of the newest most innovative, and extremly well detailed fighters in smash brothers, it bothers me when poeple don;t respect it and treat it as a party game

[darknight06]

"A fighting game is more than the overall gameplay I agree, and Street Fighter has failed in that regards, but the gameplay was always very solid. More balanced than most. Super Street Fighter 2 is one of the best fighters out there. Then Street Fighter Alpha 2 was nice with its Custom Combo Supers, that really required you to know how best to link moves together. Finally Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike went back to the basics of Street Fighter and really just tried to make a very polished very elegant fighting game"

Super Street Fighter 2 TURBO was the best of the original series.  Had the best balance and actually felt completed unlike SSF2.  SF3TS was the best one afterward.

None of the Street Fighter Alphas were any good IMO, especially 2 and 3 with their Custom Combo BS.  Yeah, Alpha 1 had chain combos along with Guy and Dan, but they're nowhere near as bad as Chun-Li and Rose in A2 were.  Chun-Li I remember the most with her BS 60%+ CC just spamming on fierce kick.  And Alpha 3 just felt like it was all over the place, with V-Ism Shotos along with Zangief and Dhalsim ruling the root.  

As for Capcom putting any 2D fighter on the DS, forget it.  The only reason PSP got Darkstalkers and SFA3 Max is only because they wouldn't have to do anything huge to get them over, all the main assets were already done, and the ports themselves would be cheap to do.  Same goes for GBA and Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo Revival.  Now they did have to draw the new moves in, but other than that it was a simple cut and paste job.  On DS they'd have to redraw everything like they had to back during SNES days and I doubt anyone over there these days would be worth crap doing sprite art.   They'd also have to resequence the music.  That's too much work, I mean with SFA3 Max on PSP, if they didn't bother to retouch the CvS2 and CFE sprites there, what makes you think they'd do any good of a job doing faithful looking sprite art on the DS?    

[ib2kool4u912]

Xbox 360, more like "sup fighting games?", amirite?

[KDR_11k]

Amodaus: 1. You can like a mechanic while hating a specific implementation. I, for example, think 6 buttons for SF are too much. There's a reason why pretty much all indie games use three attack buttons (weak, medium, strong).
2. Not everybody likes all that hitting downed characters. Never mind that 2d games allow air recovery ("ukemi") these days.

[Infernal Monkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Brandogg
Show me one PC game that looks better than the same game on Xbox 360, and uses video card technology that you can go buy right now.

I can show you two!

[Spak-Spang]

Whoever said 6 buttons is too much for a fighting game I have to agree.  I think 4 two punch and 2 kick is more than enough for a 2D fighter.  IF a third attack is needed hitting both punch or both kick is easy enough.  

That has always been something that frustrated me with Capcom fighters is that 6 button system is sometimes hard to hit all the buttons and perform combos.  It takes away from the experience some.

Mark of the Wolves is very good.  Fatal Fury has always been my second favorite fighting games series, but SNK always went overboard on way too complicated special move commands.  

A game the sucked, but had an intersting controls was Primal Rage.  I liked how you pressed the buttons down, then inputted the command.  It meant you had to think about your moves more carefully, and you could perform the action without accidentally jumping, moving backwards, and so on.  Obviously the fighter was limited because of the character direction, but I always felt that game TRIED to innovate, just failed at it.

[KDR_11k]

I think three attack buttons are sufficient, no need for separating punches and kicks.

[Spak-Spang]

I dunno KDR.  There is something nice about choosing between a punch and kicks, I really don't like how must 3D games just use simple button press combos for special moves and such.  A,A,B  should not be a special move.  

[KDR_11k]

Not having any labels on the attack buttons except for weak, medium and strong means you're more free to have your character act in any way desired. I think most of the characters in Melty Blood never use their feet for attacking, either they use their hands or their weapons/abilities. Same for Eternal Fighter Zero. Some (commercial) games have characters that use their hands when you press kick or use their feet when pressing punch. That could be avoided by simply removing the labels from the attacks. After all there's little effective difference between a kick and a punch, usually one has more range and is slower but that could just be considered a stronger attack. Worst is Tekken which maps limbs to the buttons instead of attack types so you have to learn a character's moveset just to know how you do a jab or a strong attack.

I really don't care what graphic a character uses for representing a strong attack or a jab, all I care is that I can make a quick or a powerful attack when I need it. MB and EFZ don't overload any special move inputs either (means quarter circle forward is always the same move no matter what attack button you use), except for minor variations (e.g. Kohaku throws different plants with her down-down-attack or Warakia mimics different characters with his QCF). Normal specials can be turned into more powerful attacks when your special gauge is full enough and you use strong to finish the input and in EFZ you can choose to use one, two or three bars for your super move but the attack is always executed, no matter which attack button you use. Makes adjusting to a new character much easier since you only have to remember the directions, not the attack button.

[Amodaus1]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Whoever said 6 buttons is too much for a fighting game I have to agree.  I think 4 two punch and 2 kick is more than enough for a 2D fighter.  IF a third attack is needed hitting both punch or both kick is easy enough.  

That has always been something that frustrated me with Capcom fighters is that 6 button system is sometimes hard to hit all the buttons and perform combos.  It takes away from the experience some.

Mark of the Wolves is very good.  Fatal Fury has always been my second favorite fighting games series, but SNK always went overboard on way too complicated special move commands.  

A game the sucked, but had an intersting controls was Primal Rage.  I liked how you pressed the buttons down, then inputted the command.  It meant you had to think about your moves more carefully, and you could perform the action without accidentally jumping, moving backwards, and so on.  Obviously the fighter was limited because of the character direction, but I always felt that game TRIED to innovate, just failed at it.

i used to think the 6 botton set up sucked, however i found it gives many more options over 4, not only with the intial six but more command moves and variants to specials and supers

Primal rage was bad, the specail move inputs were intresting, but extremly hard to combo from effectivily

I acctually perfer the SNK style special moves to the Street fighter ones, Thats why i mainly use Alex in street fighter 3, SNK grapplers never had to use the annoying 360 motion for command grabs, i perfer the half circle as it's buffering is less restrictive, of course you sacrafic priority, i think SNK are the only ones who can do counter moves right as they were the first to use them

if you look at remmy in SF3 his counter super has a FLASH, thats a dead give away, opposed to freemen in Mark of the Wolves, where the flash is only activated after the hit connects (not to mention all hits a garuenteed, if you catch a jumper with Remmy only some will hit) not to mention remmy looks like the unwanted child  of guile and snk

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I think three attack buttons are sufficient, no need for separating punches and kicks.

you should try The last Blade 2, as it has 4 buttons, but one is for parrying, so it's really only 3

[Amodaus1]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Amodaus: 1. You can like a mechanic while hating a specific implementation. I, for example, think 6 buttons for SF are too much. There's a reason why pretty much all indie games use three attack buttons (weak, medium, strong).
2. Not everybody likes all that hitting downed characters. Never mind that 2d games allow air recovery ("ukemi") these days.

in most 2d games i played generally air ukemi just leave you open for juggles, i barely use them, unless its guitly gear, in which some supers can nail you while grounded (the gaint whale....)

[KDR_11k]

Last Blade 2 is DC and NG according to GameRankings. I don't have either. But I have enough japanese indie fighters and all of them use a three button layout (except for an unfinished one that appears to be an abandoned version of EFZ). Most of them also allow double jumps and air dodges (both during the same jump).

Can't say too much about SNK and SF, the newest version of SF I've played was the Anniversary Edition. I can't get used to the command logic in SF2, it just feels completely strange. And while I've had little trouble with the game back when I was a kid I can't even beat the first AI opponent on Easiest now. Don't know what went wrong there (probably because I'm used to the J-indie way of things, e.g. I try to do many quick jabs when the enemy is close and go into stronger attacks once the enemy is pushed a bit away but jabs in SF2 are too slow for that)... SNK I have no experience with outside of KOF 00/01. The sheer number of fighters involved make it hard to get into that game. Manuals suck in either case, no real explaination of the characters.

And why don't these games come with advanced game tutorials? I.e. tutorials that don't just tell you "press left to go left" but also give you some basic combos and strategies for the characters. Character tutorials in general would be nice, some characters require approaches that take forever to figure out and when you're playing against someone you're expected to know all of that. Figuring things out is half the fun in singleplayer games but in competitive games you're expected to know everything if you want to have any chance at all. What the manual doesn't provide GameFAQs does. So why not tell the player right away what's expected from him?

[BranDonk Kong]

GUN looks like crap on every system.

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: JonLeung
Strange that they have Street Fighter rereleases on the GBA and DarkStalkers on the PSP but neither on the DS.  Maybe they felt like if they made a DS game, that they'd HAVE to use some of its features.

Maybe shout "Hadoken!" into the microphone if you're unable to do a basic quarter-circle + punch?  (I guess that wouldn't work for "Tatsumakisenpuukyaku!", which I always swear sounds like "Effective Budoken!" instead.  I don't even know how it's supposed to be Tatsu-etc.)

be patient... I'd love to see Xmen versus Streetfighter or something ported to the DS.

I like the idea of shouting out moves... even if you can't pronounce Tatsumakisenpuukyaku, you should be able to make it sound sufficiently different from the other spoken moves of Ken and Ryu (just hearing "tat" and a bunch of jibberish afterwards could be sufficient).

I'm more worried about the difference between Shoryuken and Shinku Hadoken, since both start with the same sound.

Or worse still... characters like Sagat or Dhalsim, who've got multiple moves with the same word in them (actually didn't Sagat's Tiger Shot and Tiger Knee both just use the shout "Tiger!" before them?)