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Episode 304: Don't Blame Games

by James Jones, Jon Lindemann, Jonathan Metts, and Guillaume Veillette - September 2, 2012, 4:33 pm PDT
Total comments: 43

On this episode: 3DS remorse, Wii U impressions, another Mario mod, and a very memorable Listener Mail segment. Plus: another RetroActive!

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Ladies and gentlemen, we present the return of... Jon Lindemann. It's good to have him back after a couple of weeks when he was pulled away from the show against his wishes. Jon gets the ball rolling with his thoughts on Muramasa: The Demon Blade, Gran Turismo PSP, and his disappointment with the 3DS lineup in 2012. Jonny follows with a report on his visit to the Wii U Experience in Denver, which is very much reminiscent of the old Cube Clubs and features many notable Wii U demos from E3. But will it convince Nintendo fans who still don't know the price, release date, or launch lineup? James doesn't have the answer, but he does have wrap-up thoughts on Rhythm Thief, which is pretty short (but maybe pretty long for a narrative rhythm game). Guillaume completes the set with his continuing trek through New Super Mario Bros. 2 and cautious optimism over the demo for a fan mod called Super Mario Galaxy 2.5, which is still a long way from completion.

The show only gets more passionate in the latter half, as we do some much-needed catching up on Listener Mail. The first letter is on violence and games, with a particular focus on other mainstream activities that seem to escape the constant charges of negative influence on the minds of babes and loonies. We also go deep into emails about must-have interface features and Nintendo's abandonment of motion control with Wii U. In all, it's probably one of the most intense and stimulating Listener Mail segments we've had in a while! You can help make it happen again soon by submitting your own questions for the RFN crew.

In the outro, Jonny has a surprise announcement: the next RetroActive is starting immediately, and the theme is Kirby's 20th anniversary! You've got less than two weeks to vote on which Kirby game we should collectively play and discuss, so get to it before you forget! Voting is quick and easy -- and if you're not sure which game to support, look for comments in the poll thread that might help.

This podcast was edited by Guillaume Veillette.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon (CD) (MP3), or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!

Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo and is included under fair use protection.

Talkback

Looking for someone who's trying to go through that adjustment to shooters and dual analogs right now?

raises his hand

I'm one of those Nintendo/handheld gamers for the last two generations, and I didn't play Sunshine or Metroid Prime until now, so I'm really struggling with independent camera control in NPC Prime 1. I've died twice in the early going of Prime because I got spun around and couldn't tell what way was up (or out).

Is Assassin's Creed the best way for someone to learn, or is there something else I should be playing? (I have access to a PS3/360, fwiw).

PogueSquadronSeptember 02, 2012

Can't wait to listen, Gui! You're doing a great job. Negative World represent.

BboySeptember 03, 2012

James Earl Jones is at this very moment playing the Wii U.

Look at all of them! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jones_(disambiguation)

Hey Einstein!September 03, 2012

On dual analogs:
OK everybody, don't hate me or nothing BUT I think some Nintendo fans have an irrational fear of dual stick control because of the Gamecube C stick.


To clarify: I love the GC controller, had a wave bird for my Wii, adored that massive micro switched A button, so comfortable to hold etc. But the C stick sucked and every time I tried to play an FPS I would give up frustrated after a few hours and get my shooting fix from Perfect Dark or a bit later, Resident Evil 4. When ever I played on a friends consoles I was destroyed and I blamed it all on dual analog controls. "SOOO counter intuitive!".


I have loved FPS games since Golden Eye and I felt left behind by the genre because of dual sticks. So when I read about the DS and Wii control schemes I hoped these would get me back in the game (never been a PC gamer). However I found that FPS experiences on Wii and DS were pretty flat (this was before the COD 4 port and Goldeneye) and I felt I was missing out by only having Nintendo consoles so I bought a PS3. Playing Modern Warfare 2 on easy mode and Super Stardust taught me all I needed to adjust to my long feared dual stick control. It's MUCH better than it was on the GC and it's now my preferred control type for an FPS or 3rd person shooter. I would take it over pointer controls any time! Friends tell me the Xbox controller is even better. Oh, and I really enjoyed Resident Evil Revelations with the frankenstick.


BUT ALSO, I do wish I could split my Dual shock 3 in half. I found whilst playing Mario Galaxy I would naturally sick with my arms far apart without thinking about it. I would even lean my elbows against chair arms and grip the nunchuck at weird angles, etc. It's so much nicer then having to sit with my hands fixed together for a conventional controller. I would love to be able to do this for all stick controlled games.


I don't think that dual sticks is the only decent method of control for all console games or the best system we'll ever have, obviously there are all kinds of things you can't do with it. But I was surprised this generation to discover that despite my concerns, it is actually my favorite control type.

Interesting theory but I don't think it applies to me. I've played plenty of dual stick games on my PS3 and I still think it's a clumsy control scheme.

I think the game that really illustrated this for me was Killzone 2. It was little to no auto-aiming, and because you spend most of your time glued behind a piece of cover, you can't use the old "strafe to adjust your aim horizontally" crutch that I mentioned on the podcast. And you're spending most of your time killing enemies that are also behind cover, so they present a very small target.

I do recall people complaining about the aiming in that particular game at launch, though, but I'm fairly sure I played it after it was patched, and it still sucked.


Meanwhile other FPS games solve the problem by cranking up the auto-aim. In Halo 2, there was a moment where I wasn't really touching the sticks and an enemy jumping across the screen literally shifted my view by 40 degrees because the reticle latched on him for a split second.

I'm not sure if every gamer who loved dual analog controls realize just how much these things are helping them. And hey, Metroid Prime 3 had lock-on and Red Steel 2 still had some auto-aim, so there are crutches in Wiimote FPSes as well. But I still think pointer controls make minute adjustment to your aim much easier.

With the Wii U GamePad, you could use dual analog for most movement and broad aiming, and use the pointer for fine adjustments. Just sayin'.

CëricSeptember 03, 2012

Quote from: Pandareus

But I still think pointer controls make minute adjustment to your aim much easier.

The flipside, though, is that it's also much easier for the slightest twitch in your wrist (momentary itch, the Wiimote carpal tunnel that all Wii motion control games cause, etc.) to instantly screw up your aim dramatically? Is that realistic? Yes, but if I wanted realism I wouldn't be playing a video game.  So I'll take the control method where I can actually relax as I play my game, thanks.  The only exception I'd make would be for rail shooters like the two RE Chronicles games, though Child of Eden plays just fine with a normal controller so maybe not even then.

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

With the Wii U GamePad, you could use dual analog for most movement and broad aiming, and use the pointer for fine adjustments. Just sayin'.

The GamePad isn't great for pointer usage for the reasons I gave on the show. James' example was good: you wouldn't make a gun in the shape of a sourcing rod.

And I'm not talking about realism, here. It has purely to do with ease of use and comfort.

Fiendlord_TimmaySeptember 03, 2012

People have that much trouble with dual analog control? I've never even thought twice about it. Right stick for camera just seems so natural, whether its an FPS, Assassin's Creed, or Final Fantasy. RE4 on Gamecube was pretty painful, what with the inability to use the C stick for the camera. Metroid Prime had the same problem. The controls in both those games were really clunky and unintuitive IMO.

Even back when I was a Nintendo only gamer, I found games like Sunshine and Luigi's Mansion really easy to get used to. I even thought Monster Hunter 3's controls were pretty straightforward. I was kinda surprised to hear so many people bitch about it.

I guess it's just easy for me to adapt to control schemes. Never had a problem with the pointer on Wii, mouse and keyboard controls were very comfortable for Portal when I played that on PC, the DS Zelda games weren't too difficult, etc.

Off the top of my head, the only control schemes that really put (read: pissed) me off were keyboard for platformers (especially for hard ones like Super Meat Boy and IWBTG...) and gyro controls. Yes that includes Fluidity and Mario Kart with the Wii Wheel. I feel like I have little control and I'm always wrestling to get it to do what I want. Fluidity's waggle jump made it even worse. Also iOS games like Rolando suck for the same reason. Oh and Monster Hunter on PSP was an abomination. Movement with the analog nub, camera with the dpad, and L button for Items? Did they not playtest that game? Are the devs not human? WTF.

Just my $.02.

BboySeptember 03, 2012

Quite honestly, I learned dual-analogue from Wind Waker and, like Jonny said, Mario Sunshine. You had to constantly manage the camera in those games constantly. If you've played those games, you can use dual-analogue. Monster Hunter Tri with dual-analogue is no harder to control than Wind Waker in my opinion, though it could use Wind Waker's lock-on. And, going back and playing Majora's Mask, man do I miss the camera control. The camera in Majora's Mask is god awful.

Glad0sSeptember 03, 2012

Fantastic episode. The listener mail segment was the best I've heard in ages. Wow. As far as my thoughts on the whole analog/motion control debate go, I....really don't care. I'm fine with either method. Oh, and the discussion on violence was absolutely fantastic, but I really think that the whole "games are a new medium" phase has reached its end. I haven't heard any sensationalist stories about violence and games being related since Columbine. However, there have been loads of stories about sexuality and games, most recently Mass Effect. But hey, that was, like, four years ago, so the days of sensationalist gaming stories in the mainstream media may soon be completely over. Now....what's next? Sensationalist hologram stories?



(Also, I'm sure that Nintendo was delighted to learn that the man who wrote such great novels as From Here to Eternity was a member of Club Nintendo.)

CëricSeptember 03, 2012

Having listened to the full episode now, a few things:

1.  I'm delighted that James is going to start playing the Lufia 2 DS (not really a) "remake", considering it was one of my games on NFR episode 1.  ;D  Oh, it should be hilarious hearing him talk about how completely broken and weird that game is.

2.  I have to enjoy the irony at the hand-wringing from that last listener mail question (and to some extent Guillaume) over how pointer control people would "have" to join the rest of the gaming world and learn how to play games with dual analog controls.  What was the party line from the pointer control fans to dual analog gamers when the Wii launched and they were looking at having to deal with what they considered inferior controls?  Oh right..."Get over it.  You'll get used to them eventually."

Payback's a Bitch, ain't it?  :P: ;)  I look forward to further ironic hand-wringing if it turns out pointer controls are supported about as much on Wii U as the Classic Controller (and the Pro variant) was supported on Wii.

JargonSeptember 03, 2012

Hey guys, first post here, but I wanted to discuss the RFN crew's answer to my question so I signed up.

First things first, thanks for reading my question!  I couldn't have asked for a more spirited discussion.  Great stuff.

I do want to clarify a few things, if possible.  Jonny did indeed say what I attributed to him, that the Wii U Gamepad can do everything Wiimotion Plus can and that he didn't want to see any games that required Wii Motion Plus on the system.  I went back to check and make sure before I sent my letter in case I had misheard.

I also want to make clear that I have no problem with dual analog controls.  They're not my favorite for FPS, as I grew up playing those games on PC, but they're not the worst thing in the world.  I played hundreds of hours of Halo in college, I'm a proud owner of an Xbox360 and I use a 360 controller on my PC in lots of games.  I'd be happy to challenge anyone to some Deathmatch if they think I'm a n00b ;).  My point wasn't that dual analog controls shouldn't be used, of course they should.  They should certainly be an option in FPS games since some people do clearly prefer them.  And I'm fine with them being the only choice in cross platform games where it doesn't make sense to slap together pointer controls, like Jonny's example of Assassin's Creed.

But my example, Metroid Prime, has never used dual analog.  So it shouldn't be heresy to want to see the pointer controls that worked quite well (for me at least) in Prime 3 and Prime Trilogy continued on the Wii U.  And I'm surprised no one stuck up more for Skyward Sword, the combat of which I know many people find to be a huge step up from previous 3D Zelda games.

And despite the hint of snark I detected in the mention of the "fertile ground of motion control", I think the possibilities for innovation next generation are fertile indeed.  We were dealing with a completely new technology this generation.  For all intents and purposes this was the NES of motion control (or Atari even).  You can't expect these types of gameplay to be perfectly refined by now.  And as James said, the improvement from Dragon Quest Swords to Skyward Sword was quite drastic.  There's no reason to think with a continued focus that couldn't be improved upon more and more.  But if motion control is not the focus of the next Zelda, but just one option alongside the Wii U Gamepad, with an emphasis on completely different types of innovation, I do think it's very unrealistic to think that we'll get to see that improvement come to fruition.

Another thing to consider is not innovation, but cultivation.  James pointed out that no game after Wii Sports really made swinging a golf club much fun.  But Nintendo barely tried.  The best we got was Wii Sports Resort, which was still just one part of ten different modes.  If someone had told me that there wouldn't be a full, blown out Mario Golf or Mario Tennis on Wii, I would have thought they were crazy.  Hell, I would happily take a Mario Bowling.  If these games are to come, they should focus on the Wiimotion Plus to deliver on the untapped potential we all thought about when we first picked up the Wiimote.

I agree that motion controls don't belong in every game, and that one of the Wii's problem was how many games tried to shoehorn them in.  The Wii U provides an opportunity to completely ignore motion controls in favor of the tablet functions, or ignore those too and go with just the Wii U Pro controller, when the game calls for it.  That's great.  But some percentage of games should continue to explore motion controls and when they do, the developer should embrace them fully.

BroodwarsSeptember 03, 2012

NFR3 is up.  You can listen to me rant on Dual Analog controls in the Pokemon Snap section. (M4a will be up before NFR4 ... maybe).

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

CëricSeptember 03, 2012

Quote from: Ceric

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Phil!September 03, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

Ooooh, brood. I disagree on the Classic controller's analogue sticks not being top-of-the-line...compared to the other guys' analogue sticks.

I find the PS3 sticks (and all the previous PS controllers) not having the eight directional hard corners built into cavity of the stick just awful. I'll push and hold up to move forward, and my character will start moving slightly to the left -- all because I can't feel that hard groove when I push up. This doesn't happen when I use the CCPro, or any previous Nintendo analogue stick controller. It's just more precise having those grooves built in.

I also absolutely LOATHE the top/nub portion of Sony's sticks. It's too slick. And in heated gameplay, when my hands/fingers start to get a bit stressed - and slight moisture starts to build up - I just lose all control with those things. Horrible design. Just awful.

As far was Microsoft's sticks go, I've never been a fan of the nub design on their sticks. It's too fat/big, which in turn, ultimately makes it uncomfortable for me. It doesn't ergonomically "click" with me. Pun intended.

I feel that Nintendo has perfected the analogue nub portion with the Wii - both on the nunchuk and the CCPro (CC, too). My only complaint is that it doesn't have the L3/R3 click - but hey, it's on Wii U. So, I'm good to go. :)

CëricSeptember 03, 2012

My problem with the Classic Controller's sticks is that they feel too loose. There's too much give in the sticks (even compared to the Nunchuk's stick), at least in mine.  They work fine for games that were designed with those sticks in mind and don't use them for too much action like Xenoblade or The Last Story.  However, I find them lacking for playing actual Virtual Console games, which is ironic considering that's the controller's very purpose.

BroodwarsSeptember 03, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Nope, have to disagree.  ESPECIALLY for Sniping.  Dual Analog = Junk.  Mouse/Pointer Much Better.  Now there are a ton of Genres that may not be the case but, if it involves Aiming,  Mouse/Pointer all the way.  There will be exceptions but those are remarkably rare.

CëricSeptember 03, 2012

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Nope, have to disagree.  ESPECIALLY for Sniping.  Dual Analog = Junk.  Mouse/Pointer Much Better.  Now there are a ton of Genres that may not be the case but, if it involves Aiming,  Mouse/Pointer all the way.  There will be exceptions but those are remarkably rare.

Hold your mouse in the air for hours at a time with the mouse only actually working 4/5 of the time you need it to and 2 times as heavy, & we'll see how you like pointer devices.  :P:  But hey, at least when you use a mouse, you have a hard surface beneath your hand and gravity in your favor.  Plus, you have a keyboard for as many commands as you might need.  I prefer the tactile feel and force feedback of a controller over the sterile mouse & keyboard, but I can respect that control method even if I don't like it.

In dual analog games, I can shoot w/ great precision over long distances in just about any given game.  In pointer control games, I can barely hit something with precision from medium distance (which is why one of the first things I did in Metroid Prime 3 was turn the lock-on aiming back on, where it belongs).  There are just too many quirks to pointer aiming for my tastes, especially if I actually want to relax while I play these games.

Bear in mind, I just spend 10 hours playing Cursed Mountain to completion, so I've just seen just about every way the Wiimote can FAIL in a given gaming situation.  So yeah, I may be just a tad bit bitter having just seen a decent experience destroyed by the Wiimote.  ;)

BroodwarsSeptember 03, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Sum it up.  Dual analog was the best they could do at the time.  Mouse/Wii Pointer far better.

And I will always fight you on that point, especially since the Classic Controller's analog sticks aren't exactly top-of-the-line compared to the PS3 and 360 controllers' analog sticks.

There are things I like pointer controls for (such as rail shooters), but as someone who likes steady precision in his shot (particularly for sniping) I'll take the not-so-easily-screwed-up aim of the analog sticks any other time.  Plus, I think the Wii proved rather conclusively that pointer control outright sucks for camera control in 3rd person games.  ;)

Nope, have to disagree.  ESPECIALLY for Sniping.  Dual Analog = Junk.  Mouse/Pointer Much Better.  Now there are a ton of Genres that may not be the case but, if it involves Aiming,  Mouse/Pointer all the way.  There will be exceptions but those are remarkably rare.

Hold your mouse in the air for hours at a time with the mouse only actually working 4/5 of the time you need it to and 2 times as heavy, & we'll see how you like pointer devices.  :P:  But hey, at least when you use a mouse, you have a hard surface beneath your hand and gravity in your favor.  Plus, you have a keyboard for as many commands as you might need.  I prefer the tactile feel and force feedback of a controller over the sterile mouse & keyboard, but I can respect that control method even if I don't like it.

In dual analog games, I can shoot w/ great precision over long distances in just about any given game.  In pointer control games, I can barely hit something with precision from medium distance (which is why one of the first things I did in Metroid Prime 3 was turn the lock-on aiming back on, where it belongs).  There are just too many quirks to pointer aiming for my tastes, especially if I actually want to relax while I play these games.

Bear in mind, I just spend 10 hours playing Cursed Mountain to completion, so I've just seen just about every way the Wiimote can FAIL in a given gaming situation.  So yeah, I may be just a tad bit bitter having just seen a decent experience destroyed by the Wiimote.  ;)

Tell me in your own word during that play through what were you actually doing with the controls?  Where you doing gunplay, melee fighting,moving, conquering the mountain, interacting with the environment?  Give it to me in percentages.

So you can honestly tell me with a straight face you prefered RE4 GC over RE4 Wii.

CëricSeptember 03, 2012

Quote from: Ceric

Tell me in your own word during that play through what were you actually doing with the controls?  Where you doing gunplay, melee fighting,moving, conquering the mountain, interacting with the environment?  Give it to me in percentages.

I don't think I could give it to you in percentages (the balance of the game changes so dramatically over the course of the game), but Cursed Mountain is essentially a 3rd person shooter at its core, more Silent Hill than modern Resident Evil, with elements of the Fatal Frame series. You're

- running through 3D environments w/ an auto-camera
- scaling mountain walls (using remote & nunchuk waggling to speed the process up)
- occasionally pushing spirits away at close range with waggle
- blasting spirits with energy from ice your ice pick from a fixed 3rd person perspective with the Wiimote pointer (the Nunchuk stick controlling the camera). So yeah, combat is largely 3rd person shooter with enemies that like to teleport around and sneak up on you, necessitating a lot of camera turning.
- performing finishers on enemies using a series of motion control gestures that are finicky at best due to how the game reads them (using the IR sensor rather than the gyroscopes, which the game never tells you).
- performing similar gestures on symbols in the environment to release seals.
- using the Wiimote to "balance" your way across a handful of small "beams" in the environment (which is actually pretty simple, so it's not really an issue compared to the nightmare it is in Skyward Sword).
- If you have the Wiimote speaker turned on (I didn't, except once to test this), you get radio messages and "climber's logs" out of the speaker, which sound like crap because the Wiimote speaker is such.

Quote:

So you can honestly tell me with a straight face you prefered RE4 GC over RE4 Wii.

No, I definitely prefer the Wii version there, but it's also a game where enemies move extremely slowly so it's easy to line up your shot.  It's also a game where you CAN'T move while aiming so there wouldn't be the usual benefits to dual stick control.  I also greatly prefer having an actual reticule on-screen to a laser sight.

One of these days, actually, I'm going to get to playing Resident Evil 5 on my PS3 with the Move.  I'm curious to see how that game plays with pointer control considering that was a dual analog shooter originally.

LithiumSeptember 03, 2012

@1:28 (pointer vs sticks, FPS controls)

I'm right there with you Guillaume, i absolutely hate using analogue sticks for FPS'. which is why i always play the PC version of the game instead, wiimote pointer controls are great, but like James said most developers don't really try and most games has terrible default settings which forces you to spend some time customizing the controls before you can play the game, assuming the developers even give you that option. As Metroid Prime 3 shows when it's done right it's a pretty big improvement over sticks. during the conversation there seemed to be a theme of "people not knowing how to use dual analogue" i didnt even know that was a factor, in my case its just personal preference. At any rate im glad that the wii remotes are compatable with wiiU and hopefully they'll actually be utilized as an optional interface.

Fiendlord_TimmaySeptember 03, 2012

Quote:

which is why one of the first things I did in Metroid Prime 3 was turn the lock-on aiming back on, where it belongs

Hmm, I dunno. I played through all 3 Prime games in the trilogy collection for Wii. I played all of them with lock on turned off. It felt very restrictive to me. I preferred the freedom to be able to quickly aim elsewhere in my view without having to take the time to fumble with disengaging the target from the enemy you were attacking. I never really had a problem with accuracy either.

GoldenPhoenix¸September 04, 2012

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Grey_NinjaTy Shughart, Staff AlumnusSeptember 04, 2012

DBG, hollaaaaaa!!

Phil!September 04, 2012

Those DBG guys are JERKS.

;)

DBG? What does that even refer to?

Quote from: Plugabugz

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Indeed. Jon read that line really low but really weird and that was my attempt to keep that in while not amplifying his voice (which would have missed the point) and not have the music drown him out.

BroodwarsSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

Tell me in your own word during that play through what were you actually doing with the controls?  Where you doing gunplay, melee fighting,moving, conquering the mountain, interacting with the environment?  Give it to me in percentages.

I don't think I could give it to you in percentages (the balance of the game changes so dramatically over the course of the game), but Cursed Mountain is essentially a 3rd person shooter at its core, more Silent Hill than modern Resident Evil, with elements of the Fatal Frame series. You're

- running through 3D environments w/ an auto-camera
- scaling mountain walls (using remote & nunchuk waggling to speed the process up)
- occasionally pushing spirits away at close range with waggle
- blasting spirits with energy from ice your ice pick from a fixed 3rd person perspective with the Wiimote pointer (the Nunchuk stick controlling the camera). So yeah, combat is largely 3rd person shooter with enemies that like to teleport around and sneak up on you, necessitating a lot of camera turning.
- performing finishers on enemies using a series of motion control gestures that are finicky at best due to how the game reads them (using the IR sensor rather than the gyroscopes, which the game never tells you).
- performing similar gestures on symbols in the environment to release seals.
- using the Wiimote to "balance" your way across a handful of small "beams" in the environment (which is actually pretty simple, so it's not really an issue compared to the nightmare it is in Skyward Sword).
- If you have the Wiimote speaker turned on (I didn't, except once to test this), you get radio messages and "climber's logs" out of the speaker, which sound like crap because the Wiimote speaker is such.

Quote:

So you can honestly tell me with a straight face you prefered RE4 GC over RE4 Wii.

No, I definitely prefer the Wii version there, but it's also a game where enemies move extremely slowly so it's easy to line up your shot.  It's also a game where you CAN'T move while aiming so there wouldn't be the usual benefits to dual stick control.  I also greatly prefer having an actual reticule on-screen to a laser sight.

One of these days, actually, I'm going to get to playing Resident Evil 5 on my PS3 with the Move.  I'm curious to see how that game plays with pointer control considering that was a dual analog shooter originally.

Sounds like most of your problems wouldn't have been fixed with Dual Analog controls but with using buttons instead of gestures.

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

LithiumSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: Pandareus

DBG? What does that even refer to?

Quote from: Plugabugz

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Indeed. Jon read that line really low but really weird and that was my attempt to keep that in while not amplifying his voice (which would have missed the point) and not have the music drown him out.

i thought it was a comedic pause because he was mumbling

nickmitchSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: Ceric

...

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

:Q ???

CëricSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: ejamer

Quote from: Ceric

...

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

:Q :confused;

I was telling him on Twitter that the way my situation is at my house, my game consoles are set up in my bedroom with everything sitting on a metal desk with glass shelves.  As I tend to play massively-long adventure games or RPGs the most, my most common way to play them is lying right down on my bed, with the TV angled to face me (the sensor bar sitting on the edge of the desk in front of the TV at the same angle).  That, to me, is the most comfortable way to play games, and it's where I'm most relaxed.

To play pointer or motion control-based games with this setup, I have to elevate my arm at roughly a 30 degree angle and keep that arm held up for more or less the duration of the game.  Otherwise, I just have to play sitting straight up or lie at an angle where my right arm is propping the rest of my body up at an angle (which is coincidentally how I type), which is not altogether unusual for Wii games.  Either way, it's not a pleasant experience for me playing these types of games.  By contrast, I can play games with a traditional controller pretty much any way I want.  I can play them lying down and with my arms at rest.  I could move the sensor bar somewhere lower or more convenient to point, but then it wouldn't be near the thing I'm supposed to be pointing AT (the TV) and that kind of defeats the point of a pointer device.  :P:  You pretty much just proved my point, Ceric.  ;)

If I have to change the entire orientation of my room and my furniture to make these games work better, they obviously have disadvantages compared to my usual playing style.  There are certain advantages and a certain appeal to motion controlled games, but the vast majority of the time I'll take the way of experiencing them where I can just relax and enjoy the experience.  It's just personal preference.

BroodwarsSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: ejamer

Quote from: Ceric

...

Also,  this is from Twitter Convo, It doesn't help that you are essential holding the controller above your head to play.  I mean if you want to lay in bed and play games fine just adjust the sensor bar to be where your going to be.

:Q :confused;

I was telling him on Twitter that the way my situation is at my house, my game consoles are set up in my bedroom with everything sitting on a metal desk with glass shelves.  As I tend to play massively-long adventure games or RPGs the most, my most common way to play them is lying right down on my bed, with the TV angled to face me (the sensor bar sitting on the edge of the desk in front of the TV at the same angle).  That, to me, is the most comfortable way to play games, and it's where I'm most relaxed.

To play pointer or motion control-based games with this setup, I have to elevate my arm at roughly a 30 degree angle and keep that arm held up for more or less the duration of the game.  Otherwise, I just have to play sitting straight up or lie at an angle where my right arm is propping the rest of my body up at an angle (which is coincidentally how I type), which is not altogether unusual for Wii games.  Either way, it's not a pleasant experience for me playing these types of games.  By contrast, I can play games with a traditional controller pretty much any way I want.  I can play them lying down and with my arms at rest.  I could move the sensor bar somewhere lower or more convenient to point, but then it wouldn't be near the thing I'm supposed to be pointing AT (the TV) and that kind of defeats the point of a pointer device.  :P:  You pretty much just proved my point, Ceric.  ;)

If I have to change the entire orientation of my room and my furniture to make these games work better, they obviously have disadvantages compared to my usual playing style.  There are certain advantages and a certain appeal to motion controlled games, but the vast majority of the time I'll take the way of experiencing them where I can just relax and enjoy the experience.  It's just personal preference.

You can use a mouse.  You don't need the Pointer pointing at the TV.  You should always adjust you environment to suit your needs if you can.  This is much like putting the toilet paper where you have to stand up walk 2 steps to get it from the toilet.

nickmitchSeptember 04, 2012

Dual analog controls don't work. I keep trying use dual analog controlers with one hand because we've got a newborn that needs to be held with my other arm. But there are a bunch of great Wii games I can play one-handed, so it's obviously a better control scheme.
...
Or maybe I'm just using one unusual circumstance to justify my position, even when it's hardly the norm.  You decide.


Either way, it will be hard to trust negative comments from you about motion/pointer controls after that story. When problems are discussed, my first reaction is to wonder whether fault lies with the hardware, software, or user? One part of that equation is looking more suspect than ever...

NeoStar9XSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

With the Wii U GamePad, you could use dual analog for most movement and broad aiming, and use the pointer for fine adjustments. Just sayin'.

I honestly couldn't tell if you were being serious or not when you said this. Using the remote to point at the screen while your left or right hand is free to hold the nunchuck is very different from using the big gamepad to point at the screen either by holding it so it's flat or perhaps using  the screen as a crosshair. Both of those ways with the gamepad is simply not comfortable or even practical for a fast paced game. I see it used in Zombi U but I even question how effective that will be unless you are in a position to really take your time.

I don't think people have an issue with getting used to dual analog nor do I think the question was even talking about having a concern when it came to playing Assassin's Creed 3 or any other non-FPS with analog controls but specifically talking about first person shooters and a concern that pointer controls wouldn't be there because all these other games would now be on the Wii U. Perhaps I'm wrong and need to go back and listen even more closely but that's how I took the question and recall being annoyed about the turn the conversation took. At least that's the direction the answer took.

For a lot of people when it comes to the FPS genre it is a big deal.  For some dual analog is just not a good control scheme. The best is naturally keyboard and mouse and the Wii pointer with nunchuck is as close as you are going to get at the moment on a console. No need to aim assist. Where you aim is where you shoot. Turning and the general speed is also not a problem at all once you get settings to your liking by shrinking the bounding box (or get rid of it. It's the area your pointer on screen moves around in before you hit the edge and you start to turn), up the turn speed, change where the edge of the screen is, etc. The Wii versions of Call of Duty, Conduit series and Goldeneye provide plenty of options to allow you to  react on a dime with far more accuracy then dual analog controllers without the aim assist.

I would suggest doing a quick for videos of the Wii versions of Call of Duty. In fact here are a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX--PcrY1vM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shAscz2PULo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IneLgjDfShs

All done with the Wii remote and nunchuck.

I understand everyone has their personal preference but there are no limitations with pointer controls when it comes to FPS. Those that prefer analog controls always seem to be quick to dismiss pointer controls as if there is something wrong with it. That there aren't enough buttons for example, or that you can't turn quickly, etc  but that has not been a problem at all for the Call of Duty games. Of all the problems the Wii versions had how it controlled was never one of them. Yet they always want to ignore the limits of dual analog.


If the Wii has shown anything it's that dual analog controls should not simply be accepted for all genres. Pointer controls for shooting is simply more efficient and accurate. There is a reason why people call the Wii version of Resident Evil 4 as the definitive version. Why even with classic controller support the majority of players continue to use the Wii remote and nunchuck when it comes to FPS on the Wii. Why strategy games like Dawn of Discovery and RUSE (on the PS3) can be so enjoyable and be controlled as if you were using a mouse. Sure it doesn't work for all genres. I don't like playing Super Mario Galaxy with the pointer. I rather have a controller in both hands. However if there is a new Metroid Prime and when it comes to Black Ops 2 the deal breaker for me would come down to pointer controls or the lack of them do to he fast paced nature of the games.


Sorry. This went on longer then I expected and became a bit more ranty then I'd like but dismissing of pointer controls always bothers me.

CëricSeptember 04, 2012

Quote from: ejamer

Or maybe I'm just using one unusual circumstance to justify my position, even when it's hardly the norm.  You decide.

Having a gaming system in your bedroom is hardly abnormal. My PS3 serves a dual-purpose as my Blu Ray player, so this setup works fine for me for both purposes.  I used to have my Wii hooked up in a living room-type setting with a couch in my old apartment, but honestly I don't enjoy the couch experience very much so when I moved I put the Wii back in with the rest of my systems where it belongs.  Wii games are certainly playable in this state.  Wiimote carpal tunnel sets in quicker than perhaps it would on a couch, but the experience is generally the same.

You have to love the internet, though. Only here can someone else tell you that the way you are most comfortable gaming is wrong.  And all that I have said is how I most enjoy games and how in my experience one control style works best for me, a subject on which I don't give a damn what you think.  If you like using pointer/motion controls for your games, fine. Good for you.  Just don't make me use them if I don't want to.  As I've said constantly on this site, I'm all about letting the player decide how they want to play. I'm just loving the irony of the pointer/motion fans being in the same boat this coming generation that traditional control fans were in this last one.  :D

And before you presume to tell me how my experiences are invalid, I've worked on a Wii development team as a QA tester.  I've used that remote every conceivable way known to man as part of my job, and I'm more than familiar with what it is and is not capable of (and what it is, and is not, good at) probably more than most on this site.

nickmitchSeptember 04, 2012

The way you game isn't wrong. But it's not the same as me, and different in a way that causes you to have a different end user experience. I can totally understand how gaming lying down would change opinions about how well suited motion/pointer controls are to many types of games. But I don't game lying down.

Knowing that your gaming experience isn't the same as mine, and knowing that it biases your comments in a negative way, how can I not take your future comments about controls with a grain of salt?  Maybe you played the game sitting up, maybe not.

But hey, congrats on that QA experience. I guess that makes you a  resident expert about what people will/won't enjoy? Surely being exposed to what Wii couldn't do as part of your daily grind didn't change the way you view the system - you know, QA is probably all fun and games right? Thanks for cluing me in even further just how far removed your experience is from mine.


(Again, none of this invalidates your opinions or experiences. But it clarifies to me that they are so different from mine that our opinions won't be of any use to each other - almost certainly going both ways. Also, don't take something you read online so personally. Life is way too short for that.)

leahsdadSeptember 04, 2012

I've got to throw my hat in with the pointer /anti-dual stick party.  Aim assist just sucks.  Imagine playing a 2D Mario platformer where EAD doesn't trust you to accurate stomp on Goombas, so they implement something like that stupid Sonic lock-on system.  To me, that is about how joy-sucking aim assist is in FPS's.

The Listener Mail question wasn't about whether dual analog is better or worse than pointer controls; our discussion devolved into that at times (mostly between Guillaume and Jon), and I'm a little sad to see the Talkback comments mostly focused on that silly debate. As I literally said on the show, people have their own preferences, and I hope both options will be supported by Wii U games. No, developers won't be forced to support one or the other. Some won't bother. What exactly do you propose is the solution to this quandary? Nintendo could force developers to include pointer support, but I think this would just result in lazy implementation of the feature, or games just not being released on the system.

GoldenPhoenix¸September 04, 2012

Personally, i want to be given the choice. One is not better than the other, although forcing one for no particular reason can cause problems if not done right.

Options is good.

I remember having to shake the remote in Sonic and the Secret Rings so hard for Sonic to respond it gave me headaches. It remains unfinished.

Quote from: Lithium

Quote from: Pandareus

DBG? What does that even refer to?

Quote from: Plugabugz

The backing music during Now Playing stopped for a few seconds.

I believe it was to allow the sultry tones of The Lindemann to take centre stage. I'm fine with that.

Indeed. Jon read that line really low but really weird and that was my attempt to keep that in while not amplifying his voice (which would have missed the point) and not have the music drown him out.

i thought it was a comedic pause because he was mumbling

Yes. The sultry man tones of Jon Lindemann. How could you think he was mumbling?

Spak_SpangSeptember 05, 2012

Both are fine with me. There are games that use pointer controls good and those that don't, just as there are games that use dual analog well and those that don't. I lie both options and I agree that it would be nice for games to offer both so I can choose.

BroodwarsSeptember 05, 2012

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

The Listener Mail question wasn't about whether dual analog is better or worse than pointer controls; our discussion devolved into that at times (mostly between Guillaume and Jon), and I'm a little sad to see the Talkback comments mostly focused on that silly debate. As I literally said on the show, people have their own preferences, and I hope both options will be supported by Wii U games. No, developers won't be forced to support one or the other. Some won't bother. What exactly do you propose is the solution to this quandary? Nintendo could force developers to include pointer support, but I think this would just result in lazy implementation of the feature, or games just not being released on the system.

It was the hottest topic in the Episode. 
Rhythm Thief I'm on record talking about already.
We could talk about the Wiimote Nunchuk controls on MHTri.  Those were good if you understood them.
I'm still surprised that Jon didn't have a Gameboy.
Here we go here something from the episode that might work.  Unskippable talking.

That is really annoying especially in someplace the developer know you will be back to many many times.  In WoW the whole last tier was more story driven which is fine, except don't make me sit through a 3-5 minute monologue in content I've ran daily or weekly for a couple months now.  I don't mind you forcing me to listen through it the first or even the 2nd time but, after that just let me skip it.  You know I'm going to be in here many times so why are you annoying me with these not really even that interesting to re-experience scenes when I have other stuff I need to do.  What often happens is this becomes Bio time so what was a 3-5 minute dialog become a 5-15 minute of waiting.  There is something wrong when I can clear through the first boss trash and all faster then the forced scene.  Its not even a cutscene.  Its just forced monologuing.

Another thing when you are escorting an NPC and you can easily get ahead of them by just walking and you have to confirm your ready when you get there for the love of the Great Murloc just make them go as fast as the player.  Yes, I understand they should be going slower in a Defense Escort scenario but not story kibble.

JargonSeptember 06, 2012

To be fair and give some context to my letter, I wanted to post the exact quote from Jonny I was referencing (found at about 1:18 of Episode 302:

"The Wii U Gamepad does everything a Wii remote can do and more.  So, there are no games coming out at launch or probably ever that won't work with the Wii U Gamepad."

So he didn't actually say that he hoped all games were Wii U Gamepad compatible but I inferred it from the context of his comments in that segment and the fact that he didn't seem to have any problem with what he considered to be the probable future.  I think it was a fair inference, but I wanted to come clean that, thanks to misremembering, my paraphrasing wasn't 100% accurate.  Sorry about that.

Hey Einstein!September 07, 2012

FOR GOODNESS SAKE LINDERMAN!
buy a freakin Gameboy

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