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Episode 242: One-Winged Migration

by Michael Cole, James Jones, Greg Leahy, and Jonathan Metts - May 8, 2011, 1:35 pm PDT
Total comments: 39

TYP steps up to the plate as we cover Tiger Woods 12, Conduit 2, and much more... because we love you!

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With Jon dodging oil spills and tornadoes in beautiful Gulf Shores, we continue the parade of guests with our old buddy, Michael "TYP" Cole. Greg is back too, and he follows a quick Bills draft report with impressions of Tiger Woods 12: The Masters and The TENTAI Show, part of Nintendo's student game exhibition in Japan. James shares a few thoughts on the Outland demo (count how many games we compare it to!) and some very cool DLC for Toy Soldiers. Jonny examines Conduit 2's identity crisis and also reports on Bangaio HD: Missile Fury, the follow-up to one of our favorite boutique DS games. Finally, TYP kicks in his take on some recent RFN favorites, including Radiant Historia and Mega Man X.

After the break, it's time for your Listener Mail! This week's letters include the future of Japanese RPGs, comfort games, GameCube recommendations (here are the NWR features we mentioned), a plea to the gaming press regarding Project Cafe, and our (other) favorite gaming podcasts. The emails have been awesome lately; please keep them coming! Also, don't forget that you have until Thursday, May 12 to place your vote in the current RetroActive poll.

This podcast was edited by Greg Leahy.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon (CD) (MP3), or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!

Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo, and is included under fair use protection.

Talkback

tyrian3May 08, 2011

Sunday night, the new RFN, and my week can finally start!
yay  :D

thesignpainterMay 08, 2011

I wish Greg would just start Mass Effect 2 already!

Jonny buried the lead on this one, Greg got Infinite friggin' Space.

Completion Edit: I think my default/depressed and need a cheerup game is running through whatever the current Pokemon game is. Though I will confess to buying Sands of Destruction at a point when I was POed at the world and blowing it up was a good idea.

We all know that the worst game title ever is Awesome Possum... Kicks Dr Machino's Butt, though Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf is a close second.

And now I have the urge to whip up an RFN Episode -1 similar to the Joystiq Podcast's Episode Zero. Though I may do it in two parts like the This Year guy and make the second part a 103/Drunkcast doubleheader.

cricarraMay 09, 2011

After ...Jons/Johns fucked up explanation of Pokemon and some other games I just can't trust his/their rants or views anymore. I played Conduit 2 online and it tells you what team you're on and you over react on the voice acting. (I'm not even mad/defending C2 I think it's shit) You guys aren't stupid, Jonny you got a fucking Ph.D but some of the shit you miss or complain about baffles me. Our game tastes just aren't the same at all and I'm fine with that and I like to listen you talk about games I've never heard of. Now, however, I just don't think I can trust what you say about em. I know it seems I complain a lot but I actually really like the podcast mainly listen for Greg and James conversations.

The_Darkest_RedMay 09, 2011

Hey guys, I'm Isaac, the guy who sent you the question about JRPG's. Thanks for the awesome discussion, it was very informative and interesting. It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one in the Western world who still enjoys the genre, especially now that it is predominantly represented on handhelds. I actually just finished FFIV on the DS for the first time last night so I'm currently in even more of a JRPG mood than usual.


I must admit, though, that I'm still a little concerned about the future of JRPG's. I realize that there is a huge market for them right now, especially in Japan, and that they are well suited for portable play, but I still worry that higher development costs will hurt our chances of seeing another generation of JRPG's as incredible as the DS/PSP one. I don't quite understand how the current state of JRPG's can be used as evidence that they will be successful on the NGP/3DS because to me that seems like using the PS2 to prove that JRPG's would be popular on the PS3. Of course they're popular now, the PSP and DS are perfectly suited for enhanced remakes and ports, but the 3DS (and especially the NGP) are much more powerful and are more similar to the Wii and PS3. I'm sure we will see plenty of great re-makes on the 3DS and NGP, especially from Square-enix, but I wonder how likely we are to see companies like Atlus embrace the newest generation of handhelds. It just seems to me that a game like Radiant Historia would be significantly more costly to make on the 3DS than the DS, but perhaps I'm mistaken.


Also, is it really fair to defend the production values of JRPG's on the DS based on FFIV? To me it seems like an out-lier since it is actually a re-make and a large portion of the development is already done. Square-enix didn't have to worry about putting as much money and effort into things like the story and mechanics because those were already set in stone, which may have allowed them to focus their attention more heavily on the presentation. Still, don't you think FFIV would cost significantly more to develop for the 3DS than the DS, assuming SE was interested in pushing the graphical capabilities of the 3DS as well? Either way I wasn't trying to imply that JRPG presentation was bad on the current generation of handhelds, just that it may be slightly less feasible to push the 3DS and NGP to a comparable point.


Hopefully I'm wrong, though, and as James pointed out there are already some great looking JRPG's lined up for the 3DS. I just hope we get the same amount of original titles with the new generation of handhelds as we have with the current one. Then again, if SE would just re-make FFVI for the 3DS I would gladly stop worrying about the genre and forget about all other JRPG's entirely.  :D


Keep up the awesome work guys, RFN is an absolute blast to listen to every week, and I really appreciate the knowledge and passion you all have for the gaming industry. It's particularly refreshing how you guys actually care about your reader mail, as opposed to many gaming podcasts where the guys just complain about the letters being too long or getting too many questions all the time. Sorry for the seriously huge wall of text!

I think RPGs in general are a great way to cope with loss/hardships.  As a kid, I was a bit overweight and was ridiculed quite often at my school.  At the time, my way to cope was to play Final Fantasy VII and Chrono Trigger.  I think it's the escapism that's at the heart of why RPGs work so well for this.  The fact that you can insert yourself into this character and imagine you're this ridiculously powerful character, or instead of being at home coping with issues you're a young man traveling through time to save the world. 

I know this applies to more than RPGs, but I guess the point to take home is that playing video games can make you feel like you have control over something when you otherwise feel powerless in other aspects of your life. 

happyastoriaMay 09, 2011

Quote from: cricarra

After ...Jons/Johns fucked up explanation of Pokemon and some other games I just can't trust his/their rants or views anymore. I played Conduit 2 online and it tells you what team you're on and you over react on the voice acting. (I'm not even mad/defending C2 I think it's ****) You guys aren't stupid, Jonny you got a fucking Ph.D but some of the **** you miss or complain about baffles me. Our game tastes just aren't the same at all and I'm fine with that and I like to listen you talk about games I've never heard of. Now, however, I just don't think I can trust what you say about em. I know it seems I complain a lot but I actually really like the podcast mainly listen for Greg and James conversations.

You called them stupid, without calling them stupid, just 'cause they disagree with you, ha! Personally, I hate Pokemon, but that's just me; however, I don't attack them, or call them names. For instance, Jonny didn't like Fragile Dreams, and I responded with constructive criticism, not a series of attacks.

It's natural to relate to the person you have more things in common with, but being open minded is something to consider. I like Jonny, even though he listens to some horrible podcasts (Filmspotting) and hates "B" movies (GRRRRRR), but I still respect him and he's my favorite! Actually, I have no favorites - I love them all <3

I think we all need a group hug. Hey, James, stop trying to grab my ass!

happyastoriaMay 09, 2011

Also, The Conduit voice acting is fuckin' stupid.

One more thing, I love how you partially censor yourself.

I played Conduit 2 online multiplayer for a couple of hours and never saw a team designation on the screen. If it's there and I can't find it or don't notice it, that's still a problem. Or maybe they patched it in after I stopped playing? Regardless, it's not a huge problem but certainly added to the confusion and sloppiness of that experience.


Also, I think the voice acting is exactly what game producers wanted. It matches the script perfectly; both are overblown and intentionally stupid. That just happens to be something I dislike.

KisakiProjectMay 09, 2011

I don't understand why anyone thought GE on wii is a good game.  Its like "if you hate everything about FPS for the last 10 years you'll like this."  Really I don't get how anyone other than nintendo fanboys bitterly clinging to their disdain for halo could enjoy that game.

C2 is much smoother and more modern than the first one.  It what you would want out of an FPS.  For me it clicked but I get why it doesn't for some people.  I enjoy the absurd conspiracy theory plot.  Plus the multiplayer is like CoD but slightly slower.  Which works for me cause its a bit more arcadey but not as slow as Halo.  Which per my taste I enjoy.  But if you don't like the pacing you won't like it.

Also your hatred of boss battles.  "Suck less."  J/K  But seriously you find these boss battles bad but like the end of GE Wii?  What?  That sequence was god awful.

I dunno Conduit is stuck between a rock and hard place.  Nintendo fans hate FPS.  FPS fans hate Nintendo. 

Though I think a C3 as a cafe launch title could do well.  Show off the HD, onlien infrastructure, and make you money back on launch hype.

But I guess I'm Conduit defense force.

KDR_11kMay 09, 2011

On the Gamecube I liked (besides all the mentioned games) Gotcha Force, the Lost Kingdoms games, P.N. 03 and Soul Calibur 2.

Quote from: KisakiProject

I don't understand why anyone thought GE on wii is a good game.  Its like "if you hate everything about FPS for the last 10 years you'll like this."  Really I don't get how anyone other than nintendo fanboys bitterly clinging to their disdain for halo could enjoy that game.

Yeah, about 1999 was back when multiplayer FPSes were still good. When rocket launchers were still regular combat weapons instead of rare specialty tools that instakill anything. When jump pads were standard features in arenas. When health floated in bubbles spread across the map. Halo isn't the worst offender, Call of Duty turned everything into a clickfest where it's all about spotting enemies first.

CericMay 09, 2011

The Younger Plumber.  Everyone around the forum should know.

I was just listening to Episode 228 where you first talk about Whomp'em(sp?). 

Still don't remember it being that bad just a Mega Man clone in almost every since of the word.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trudging Its a word.

So the European version of games not Clean cuts?

NoA is the Worse Branch of the big Three Nintendo ones.

Wait Platinum was Clover?

Someone is named Crowd-hammer.

Now we know the target market for Whomp'em.

That sounds interesting to have that Asteroid mechanic.  It sounds good especially for Free.

Maybe in the future one day...

Nintendo not innovating its mechanism during a generation. 0.0  Say it ain't so.

Outland:

1. Ikaruga
2. Portal
3. Fluidity
4. Metroid
5. Castlevania
6. Ghost Trick
7. Limbo (Is that a game?)
8. Donkey Kong Country
9. Fireplace (Maybe)
I'm probably missing some.


I'm sort of surprised you don't like Tower Defence.

You are still playing Phantom Brave? Also Greg has a point their.

Farsight was so uber uber cheap.

Hawx 2 Awful story?

So that is what all the games after Sonic Adventure was based off of.

Hey, "Knowing is half the battle" is awesome. :P:

Get the Staff together and Podcast a discussion of that Feature.

Thanks, Nick.

Yeah, I prefer my JRPG's on my portables.

You gain a lot of lee-way from the Portability.

FF-XIII isn't nearly as good as the older sprite ones.

Sometimes just want to pull out a fighter.

I like to play Bloody Roar.

I need to get the Second Baten Kaitos but I was hoping it was going to have a more complex card system using the other parts of poker but it was not to be.

FF:CC is ok Single player till you get to the last part where you need more memory to actually beat it yeah...  I was sad when things didn't change when you went back.

Phantasy Star Online(PSO) if you like to Hack and Slash things.  I really would love to have that game  totally redone on the next console.  Especially if it could have free online again.  Love that game.  I hate that my wife lost it.

Yeah, Prince of Persia is good.

F-Zero GX thats a good game especially if your GameCube couldn't handle it like mine.

3DS Whiner. :P:

What advertising?

You can use the 360 Developement software for Cafe.  That would be awesome. 

I'ver heard that MS has the best suite of tools for console developers.  I know as a programmer I'm a big fan of Visual Studio, even though it is bloated.

You just love to record yourself talking don't ya.

I still like the live version better of Radio Trivia.

I don't get the One-Winged Migration Sub-Title.

On the thread current Discussion:
I wouldn't blame Call of Duty as much as I blame Counter Strike and Tom Clancy.


The final boss in the new Goldeneye is truly horrible. No excuse for that crap in a modern game. However, it's the only boss like that in the whole game. Conduit 2 has several of them. And my complaint about Conduit 2's bosses is not that they are too hard (Adams is very easy, for instance) but that they take a really long time and aren't much fun.

The title of this episode is a hybrid reference to the listener mail about JRPGs migrating to handhelds, the film Winged Migration, and the famous song "One-Winged Angel" from Final Fantasy 7.

noname2200May 09, 2011

Quote from: KDR_11k

Quote from: KisakiProject

I don't understand why anyone thought GE on wii is a good game.  Its like "if you hate everything about FPS for the last 10 years you'll like this."  Really I don't get how anyone other than nintendo fanboys bitterly clinging to their disdain for halo could enjoy that game.

Yeah, about 1999 was back when multiplayer FPSes were still good. When rocket launchers were still regular combat weapons instead of rare specialty tools that instakill anything. When jump pads were standard features in arenas. When health floated in bubbles spread across the map. Halo isn't the worst offender, Call of Duty turned everything into a clickfest where it's all about spotting enemies first.

Hey man, cool kids know it's not right to fight.
I'm also generally displeased with the direction the FPS has taken in the past few years. Single-player modes are generally too confining, and the regenerating health + "ranks" make me really dislike multiplayer.

Killer_Man_JaroTom Malina, Associate Editor (Europe)May 09, 2011

I'd be interested to hear more about why James likes Toy Soldiers so much. All I've seen of that game is the Quick Look on Giant Bomb - it looked fun, but I got the impression that it was only made more challenging by increasing the number of enemies in a wave. It's a problem that most tower defence games are guilty of, yet one that Plants Vs Zombies manages to avoid, which is the main reason why that is my favourite in the genre.

On the topic of Xbox Live Arcade, having just returned to it on Steam after a few months, I heartily recommend The Misadventures of P.B. Winterbottom, which is apparently $10 on the marketplace, to anybody who likes a good platform puzzle game. It's really unique, the presentation is superb, and new mechanics are layered on thick all throughout the game, right up to the final world. It may be the only game that I felt bad paying a low price for; I bought it for 39p (!!!) during the Steam Christmas sale. Definitely worth way more.

KisakiProjectMay 09, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

The final boss in the new Goldeneye is truly horrible. No excuse for that crap in a modern game. However, it's the only boss like that in the whole game. Conduit 2 has several of them. And my complaint about Conduit 2's bosses is not that they are too hard (Adams is very easy, for instance) but that they take a really long time and aren't much fun.

Ah so its more of a passing thing.  I follow you now.  Yeah I think boss battles in FPS are a bit odd.

adadadMay 09, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I played Conduit 2 online multiplayer for a couple of hours and never saw a team designation on the screen. If it's there and I can't find it or don't notice it, that's still a problem. Or maybe they patched it in after I stopped playing? Regardless, it's not a huge problem but certainly added to the confusion and sloppiness of that experience.

You came out negative on the colour-blind test the other week so we know we can trust your vision credentials.

Ceric - I believe this is going to be the first and last time anyone ever responds to any of your ridiculous, near incomprehensible, mile-long posts in these podcast threads but here goes, just once. Trudging is word, but I believe Jonny said "trodging", which is not...probably. Then again I found out quite recently through the OED that "pagina" is a word, so you never know unless you search. (I'm not going to search it)

motangMay 09, 2011

I used to get rid of all my stuff (games and system) and replace them with newer console(s) and games. but after listen to Retronauts about a couple of years ago I have changed my mind.  I am keeping my stuff (for example even though I bought a 3DS, I still have my DSi).  I have my PS2 still and a lot of games for it and will be getting a PS3 in a month (since there isn't much Wii games coming out), and I will keep my Wii even after I get Nintendo next console.

KDR_11kMay 10, 2011

I think for Project Cafe it's possible that the screen is an "add-on" for the controller like the nunchuk was to split up the controller price and keep it cheaper for games that need only one screen.

NinSageMay 10, 2011

Another very enjoyable episode.  Responses ...

1. Yea Buffalo Bills!  I don't think they needed a quarterback so I'd be happy with the DT pick.  Fitzpatrick can be an above-average QB if you get an offensive line in front of him!

2. As for Conduit 2?  Man, my world is rocked.  I loved the first game so much.  Call the game "old fashioned" ... but maybe that's why I loved it so much!! Because it wasn't ridiculous (my opinion) like "modern" shooters.

Unfortunately, it seems like HVS didn't stick to their guns with the sequel.  They listened TOO MUCH (just like Sega did with Sonic 4).  And the result was we got just what "we" asked for ... a d-bag of a character when he was once one of the few virtuous shooter protagonists.  Instead of getting another legit installment in a franchise, HVS was told that the Wii can't do legit shooters, so they made it intentionally ridiculous.

It's like when a kid starts making fun of himself in an attempt to stop bullies from doing it ... it never works, it just destroys what little respect that kid had left.

It sounds like HVS lost their nerve and it sounds like it's going to make me avoid purchasing C2 ... depending on how much respect they make me lose, I may return C1.  I loved that game, I played through it 5 times. I got my money's worth and I planned to enjoy it as part of a franchise.  If HVS wants to ruin that franchise, I don't need to hold on to it.

I've heard Jonny treat HD shooters with similarly high standards. So in this case, I have no problem with Jonny's harsh criticisms.

Also, story/atmosphere is the most important part of a game to me.  I loved the first one.  But this one sounds like it will SEVERELY disappoint me.

Jonny said "on paper the plot is neat." Bingo!! So many games blow it in the execution.  A certain amount of bad writing just happens in all media.  In this case, I think HVS had a good plot in place from the ending of the first game.  But they compromised everything for the reasons listed above.

3. Do you think the publishers care if day-1 bug fixes happen automatically or not? If being patient and getting it right were important to these companies it wouldn't happen on any console.  It's not the Wii's fault.  Gamers shouldn't have tolerated the concept of day-one DLC... ever.  It blows my mind that gamers have been fooled into thinking DLC makes a game BETTER.  Ya know what makes a game better? more C, zero DLC.

4.  Yea, Squeenix is just living up to its own standard.  Their fans would be PISSED if each new game didn't make them feel like it was the PINNACLE of technological gaming.

Squeenix' messed up when they began focusing more and more on technical grandeur over simple quality of content.  I looooove FF7, 8 and 10... but it is true that beginning with FF7, Squeenix started getting confused.  The cinematics of the earlier games enhanced what was already a great experience - but they weren't THE experience.

5. Yea, Rochester!! My home town! It is indeed "Rah-chess-ter."

6a. Sony and MS would love to be conductor of the hype train.  Don't blame Nintendo for doing it successfully.

6b. I was expecting a Project Café price announcement at E3, but you guys are absolutely right that it won't happen for several reasons.  Thanks for letting me know ahead of time!

7. I concur with the unnamed others, the GiantBomb people are ... aptly named.

Keep up the great work, RFN!

YoshidiousGreg Leahy, Staff AlumnusMay 10, 2011

On the JRPG/development costs topic, there was one point I had intended to make but failed to bring up "on air": there is a very significant distinction to be made between the 3DS and NGP with regard to the technical leaps that are being taken by each platform.

While the 3DS does go beyond the PSP's tech specs, the difference is not nearly of the magnitude that we typically associate with generational change. This is demonstrated by the fact that we're already seeing titles like Blazblue: Continuum Shift shipping for both 3DS and PSP at the same time that (stereoscopic 3D aside) are essentially the same game on the two platforms. In contrast, the NGP clearly goes way beyond the PSP, and its technical superiority compared to both its predecessor and its competitors will surely be a crucial part of its appeal when it launches.

If the PSP can enjoy a diversity of JRPGs that includes games with console-like polygonal graphics (e.g. Monster Hunter) as well as sprite-based remakes of Super Famicom games (Tactics Ogre, FFIV Complete), then I see no reason why the 3DS cannot do the same provided (of course) that it achieves a sufficiently large user base in Japan. The NGP may be another story, moving the goal posts as it does at a time when the original PSP seems to be reaching the peak of its popularity with both consumers and developers in Japan, but for this reason as well as all the ones that were brought up during the episode, I'm not very concerned about the future of JRPGs on 3DS.

gojiraMay 10, 2011

Having played all of the Bangai-O games I feel Missile Fury is pretty different.  It goes back to the one stage at a time setup of the N64/Dreamcast game(although you can skip levels after losing three times).  But the wacky characters and nonsense story are nowhere to be seen.  Also this game is hard from the beginning.  So far it seems the game is very simplistic in level design.  With the inclusion of a timer and leaderboards I wonder if there will be the complicated levels of the previous games. 

The biggest change is in the basic gameplay.  Dashing seems to be a bigger deal.  Also there's this freeze move that I don't think has been in previous Bangai-O games.  My consoles are currently packed up since I'm moving so I can't double check to see if these are new.  But having played a lot of the original games and all of the DS game I know this game isn't played exactly like them.

Oh, and bosses have never been much of a big deal in the Bangai-O games.  A lot are jokes in the original game.  The others are mostly built to pump out as many missiles as possible.  So they themselves are not that impressive.

The_Darkest_RedMay 11, 2011

Quote from: Yoshidious

On the JRPG/development costs topic, there was one point I had intended to make but failed to bring up "on air": there is a very significant distinction to be made between the 3DS and NGP with regard to the technical leaps that are being taken by each platform.

While the 3DS does go beyond the PSP's tech specs, the difference is not nearly of the magnitude that we typically associate with generational change. This is demonstrated by the fact that we're already seeing titles like Blazblue: Continuum Shift shipping for both 3DS and PSP at the same time that (stereoscopic 3D aside) are essentially the same game on the two platforms. In contrast, the NGP clearly goes way beyond the PSP, and its technical superiority compared to both its predecessor and its competitors will surely be a crucial part of its appeal when it launches.

If the PSP can enjoy a diversity of JRPGs that includes games with console-like polygonal graphics (e.g. Monster Hunter) as well as sprite-based remakes of Super Famicom games (Tactics Ogre, FFIV Complete), then I see no reason why the 3DS cannot do the same provided (of course) that it achieves a sufficiently large user base in Japan. The NGP may be another story, moving the goal posts as it does at a time when the original PSP seems to be reaching the peak of its popularity with both consumers and developers in Japan, but for this reason as well as all the ones that were brought up during the episode, I'm not very concerned about the future of JRPGs on 3DS.

Very good point Greg, I think you're right, it's not really fair to lump the NGP and 3DS together when we're discussing this issue.

adadadMay 11, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

2. As for Conduit 2?

It sounds like HVS lost their nerve and it sounds like it's going to make me avoid purchasing C2 ... depending on how much respect they make me lose, I may return C1.  I loved that game, I played through it 5 times. I got my money's worth and I planned to enjoy it as part of a franchise.  If HVS wants to ruin that franchise, I don't need to hold on to it.

Is this serious? If so, wow. Should I return my Simpsons DVDs because I dislike recent seasons? And just because U2 haven't made any decent music in years, does that retroactively prevent War and The Joshua Tree from being good albums? I realise I'm being somewhat antagonistic towards users in this thread but I would love to know what the reasoning behind your mentality is here.

I suppose finally I would add that since Johnny wasn't exactly a fan of the first game (let's face it, everyone on the podcast has shat on it at some point) and your tastes seem to differ from his, does it not sound like the second game might be worth checking out at least? I hope you can at least be persuaded to retrieve your copy of The Conduit from the bin.

Kytim89May 11, 2011

Isn't it true that if Nintendo were to include a Blu Ray drive without an HDD to install games onto then load times would increse? It appears to me that Nintendo being the keeper of efficiency that they are would be attracted to the ability to keep load times low when games are becoming biiger in terms of memory requirements.

Also, Nintendo would be smart to include an HDD into their console to appease third parties. The best way to appease third parties is to allow them to put as much of their DLC as possible onto a gamer's system. This has worked out well for both and Microsoft and has become a market trend, so Nintendo would be smart to adopt it as their standard in order to get more support from third parties.

The truth is that flash memory is still too cost prhibitive for the average gamer to use as a replacement hard drive. I agree with Nathan that a 32GB SD card is more expensive than a 320GB laptop hard drive. Nintendo would be smart to include support for all modern storage devices and let the consumer sort it out themselves.

If Nintendo want to be the market leader again with the Super Wii then they are going to have to adopt market trends. I can not stress this enough that things such as mass storage, adequate online and high definition graphics are no longer a luxery, but a mandatory features that when not given sufficient support can make or break a console. I respect Nintendo's business policies, but I may not buy thier next home console if I have to miss out on all the good DLC that is prolific on their competitor's systems.

Edit:

Wrong thread.

NinSageMay 12, 2011

Quote from: adadad

Quote from: NinSage

2. As for Conduit 2?

It sounds like HVS lost their nerve and it sounds like it's going to make me avoid purchasing C2 ... depending on how much respect they make me lose, I may return C1.  I loved that game, I played through it 5 times. I got my money's worth and I planned to enjoy it as part of a franchise.  If HVS wants to ruin that franchise, I don't need to hold on to it.

Is this serious? If so, wow. Should I return my Simpsons DVDs because I dislike recent seasons? And just because U2 haven't made any decent music in years, does that retroactively prevent War and The Joshua Tree from being good albums? I realise I'm being somewhat antagonistic towards users in this thread but I would love to know what the reasoning behind your mentality is here.

I suppose finally I would add that since Johnny wasn't exactly a fan of the first game (let's face it, everyone on the podcast has shat on it at some point) and your tastes seem to differ from his, does it not sound like the second game might be worth checking out at least? I hope you can at least be persuaded to retrieve your copy of The Conduit from the bin.

Hello, friend.  I welcome this discussion.

You make a good point and some decent analogies.  Believe me when I say that if I return C1 this would be the first time I'd done such a thing.

As for my reasoning, I really got the sense that, especially given the ENDING of the first game, HVS was trying to build a franchise with The Conduit.  Again, considering the cliff-hanger ending, it really makes C2 the second half of one whole work. (Or, the 2nd 3rd of an even larger work since apparently there is a cliff-hanger at the end of C2).

So, let's imagine that after the very enjoyable Batman Begins, Christopher Nolan made Christian Bale's character a wise-crackin', foul-mouthed, bad boy because critics found him too stoic in the original.

Wouldn't that sour the experience of the first film?

Remember, though I acknowledge I'm in the minority, I value plot among all else in games.  Even if it's a game that "shouldn't" have a plot like, say, Bubble Bobble - I still wanna know why those dinosaurs are blowin' bubbles!

So though C1 might still be a great "game" regardless of what happens in any sequels, if the plot/characters are retro-actively gutted? Then... that ruins the experience.... for me.

I'm not basing my opinion on Jonny's critique of the gameplay.  In fact, doesn't it sound like he enjoyed the gameplay?  But, if the new Michael Ford sees a female ally for the first time and remarks "you're a stone cold fox!" then that is not the franchise I fell in love with.

I was weary when I saw the cover art months ago.  I felt they had literally taken the human out of the character and turned the game into the typical HD dude-bro aesthetics.  Plus, the female ally is covered in body armor..... except for her cleavage.  Another classic dude-bro piece of ridiculousness that the first game was blissfully devoid of.

Giant Bomb got around to doing a Quick Look for Conduit 2. While Ryan is horrible at the game, and neither of the guys know a damn thing about it to begin with, the video is funny and showcases a number of the problems I have with the game.


http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-conduit-2/17-4113/


Spoiler: They stop playing when the game hard locks! On the first level!

SundoulosMay 12, 2011

I loved the The Hobbit for the Gamecube; even if you don't keep it, it's worth tracking down for the soundtrack alone.  The combat was okay, but the platforming and controls drove me crazy...lots of climbing up ropes, jumping to other ropes and on to platforms.  Back when it was released, Vivendi allowed people to download the soundtrack for free.  It's still pretty easy to find.

Has anyone ever noticed that cross-platform third party games on the Gamecube are harder to find and tend to be more expensive than the Playstation 2/Xbox counterparts e.g. Beyond Good & Evil, Prince of Persia?  I can only guess that's because fewer were printed.

Sadly, I parted ways with many of my old systems and games years ago.  When Igot married, all the clutter around the house was pretty unbearable...and I had to admit that I wasn't going to go back to play a lot of them.  Hearing about the VC on the Wii also served to push me over reselling edge.

adadadMay 12, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Hello, friend.  I welcome this discussion.

You make a good point and some decent analogies.  Believe me when I say that if I return C1 this would be the first time I'd done such a thing.

As for my reasoning, I really got the sense that, especially given the ENDING of the first game, HVS was trying to build a franchise with The Conduit.  Again, considering the cliff-hanger ending, it really makes C2 the second half of one whole work. (Or, the 2nd 3rd of an even larger work since apparently there is a cliff-hanger at the end of C2).

So, let's imagine that after the very enjoyable Batman Begins, Christopher Nolan made Christian Bale's character a wise-crackin', foul-mouthed, bad boy because critics found him too stoic in the original.

Wouldn't that sour the experience of the first film?

Remember, though I acknowledge I'm in the minority, I value plot among all else in games.  Even if it's a game that "shouldn't" have a plot like, say, Bubble Bobble - I still wanna know why those dinosaurs are blowin' bubbles!

So though C1 might still be a great "game" regardless of what happens in any sequels, if the plot/characters are retro-actively gutted? Then... that ruins the experience.... for me.

I'm not basing my opinion on Jonny's critique of the gameplay.  In fact, doesn't it sound like he enjoyed the gameplay?  But, if the new Michael Ford sees a female ally for the first time and remarks "you're a stone cold fox!" then that is not the franchise I fell in love with.

I was weary when I saw the cover art months ago.  I felt they had literally taken the human out of the character and turned the game into the typical HD dude-bro aesthetics.  Plus, the female ally is covered in body armor..... except for her cleavage.  Another classic dude-bro piece of ridiculousness that the first game was blissfully devoid of.

Well I have to say I am surprised I managed to get away with the U2 analogy so easily. Anyway, I think I can see more where you're coming from now, fair enough. It is a bit strange that they would end the first game with a cliffhanger only to radically change the tone for the second one, and then have another cliffhanger for a potential third game...and, assuming a third gets made, what then? Keep the tone from the second game? Revert to the first game's serious tone? Maybe they ought to make the third like a film noir...avant-garde badass!

Can't imagine there are many people like you out there who value their plot in videogames - have you ever played the Sin and Punishment games? Either one of those ought to put anyone off videogame plots forever.

RazorkidMay 12, 2011

Excellent show as usual gentlemen.  I just want to know what was that podcast that John mentioned that he listens to that is basically a "best of" of older gaming podcasts? I wanna check it out.

SundoulosMay 13, 2011

Quote from: Razorkid

Excellent show as usual gentlemen.  I just want to know what was that podcast that John mentioned that he listens to that is basically a "best of" of older gaming podcasts? I wanna check it out.

I believe it's here:  http://thisyearcollection.blogspot.com/

I haven't listened to them, but I'm in awe of the amount of editing time that was probably required.

NinSageMay 13, 2011

Quote from: adadad

Well I have to say I am surprised I managed to get away with the U2 analogy so easily.

It's cool.  I make all kinds of obscure analogies in my posts ^_^

Quote from: adadad

It is a bit strange that they would end the first game with a cliffhanger only to radically change the tone for the second one, and then have another cliffhanger for a potential third game...and, assuming a third gets made, what then? Keep the tone from the second game? Revert to the first game's serious tone?

PREEEEEEEEcisely!!

Quote from: adadad

Can't imagine there are many people like you out there who value their plot in videogames ...

Sad but true.  I think a lot of people figure if you wanna care about plot it would be better to watch a movie, read a book, etc.  I think my tastes come from the fact that I thirst for interesting plots but most movies (both big budget and indie) tend to rub me the wrong way.  Reading of any kind makes me sleepy, so books are out.

Games it is!

Quote from: adadad

... have you ever played the Sin and Punishment games? Either one of those ought to put anyone off videogame plots forever.

I haven't played either of them but I would really like to.  Keep in mind, I'm OK with a plot that is outlandish as long as it is consistent.  It might not be my favorite, but it can sometimes be fun.  The real problem with the C2 ridiculousness is that, as we determined, it betrays the original.  Also, it sounds like the ridiculousness from C2 is more like "I'm a big ol' d-bag out of nowhere" instead of "giant mutant chickens running around".  Big difference. =D

Good talkin' with ya!

CericMay 13, 2011

I like Plots in my Videogames.  I like to have some sort of motivation to do what I'm doing. I'm playing through FF:IV right now and I'm enjoying the plot in that game.  The pacing is fairly good and I can already identify some places where the developers went "you know we can have them grind this but, it be better for the story if we just did this instead."  Pacing and Predictability are the big things for me.  If I know how the rest of Game, Movie, Book turns out I'm not going to continue with it.  Their are a lot of series that I really don't like the gameplay but I'm as happy as a clam to read the dialogue, lore, etc about. (Metal Gear series comes to mind on that one.)

Quote from: Ceric

I like Plots in my Videogames.  I like to have some sort of motivation to do what I'm doing. I'm playing through FF:IV right now and I'm enjoying the plot in that game.  The pacing is fairly good and I can already identify some places where the developers went "you know we can have them grind this but, it be better for the story if we just did this instead."  Pacing and Predictability are the big things for me.  If I know how the rest of Game, Movie, Book turns out I'm not going to continue with it.  Their are a lot of series that I really don't like the gameplay but I'm as happy as a clam to read the dialogue, lore, etc about. (Metal Gear series comes to mind on that one.)


I think plots are critical to RPGs.  The story is at the core of what makes that genre, and I'd be willing to guess people are more forgiving towards mediocre battle systems than stories in RPGs, because a lot of the time the story of the RPG is what makes it memorable to a person.

Most other genres of games you can tolerate a bad story if the gameplay is spectacular.  I don't care about Ryu and Ken's rivalry if they both move as fluid as someone with epilepsy in front of a strobe light.  I don't care if Link can save Zelda from Ganon if he has to go through a string of quick-time events to beat him.  Great story in other genres can turn a great game into an amazing game, but a bad story in these genres doesn't hurt these games as much as RPGs.

CericMay 13, 2011

Fighters I honestly could care less about the story.  Original Zelda same way but, TP Yeah the story in that game was why I almost didn't complete it.  Same with WW.  It has everything to do with Pacing in the Zelda series.  The last 2 Console ones were not Paced well.  Sometimes you got to know when less is more.

Quote from: Ceric

Fighters I honestly could care less about the story.  Original Zelda same way but, TP Yeah the story in that game was why I almost didn't complete it.  Same with WW.  It has everything to do with Pacing in the Zelda series.  The last 2 Console ones were not Paced well.  Sometimes you got to know when less is more.


Ok, but is it the story pacing that is tedious, or the gameplay pacing that made you unmotivated to complete it?  For a game like Zelda (Twilight Princess, at least), I imagine they create concepts for dungeons/gameplay before story, and paint a thin layer of story on top of it, so i'd be inclined to blame gameplay before story in the example you give.

CericMay 13, 2011

Quote from: lolmonade

Quote from: Ceric

Fighters I honestly could care less about the story.  Original Zelda same way but, TP Yeah the story in that game was why I almost didn't complete it.  Same with WW.  It has everything to do with Pacing in the Zelda series.  The last 2 Console ones were not Paced well.  Sometimes you got to know when less is more.

Ok, but is it the story pacing that is tedious, or the gameplay pacing that made you unmotivated to complete it?  For a game like Zelda (Twilight Princess, at least), I imagine they create concepts for dungeons/gameplay before story, and paint a thin layer of story on top of it, so i'd be inclined to blame gameplay before story in the example you give.

WW definetly gameplay because of that whole Sea Fetching....

I was actually somewhat invested in TP's story until I had they main bad guy trapped in the castle not bothering anyone at all.  At that point it was what is the point.  Why do I care?  I had effectively already saved Hyrule.  Never got a good answer.  The gameplay pacing could have been better in TP as well.  Their is a whole section of the world I didn't know existed till it was to late to be useful.

I'm struggling to understand how James ran out of whale names for Infinite Space. Unless he was limiting himself to a single branch of the Cetacea, there should've been plenty to go around. James, were you using common names or genus names? Or species names? There are even more possibilities if you're using the full binomial. Then you can have, say, a whole sub-fleet of giant Balaenoptera ships.

Character limit

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