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Episode 62: Artsy Fartsy

by Karl Castaneda - July 25, 2007, 9:39 pm PDT
Total comments: 29

Art, arguments, and the June NPD!

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Dave Perry's gonna be so pissed.



Jonny's on vacation this week, so we all picked up the slack to make up for his absence. And lo and behold, the show doesn't go five minutes before an argument breaks out. Luckily, we were able to cool down with some listener mail and a truckload of news.

For our feature this week, we go to task to discuss gaming's artistic merits in regard to recent comments made by Roger Ebert. It gets a little transcendental, but we try not to be too snobby.

Remember, if you enjoy RFN, feel free to subscribe and review us on iTunes, and make sure you digg the show at the link above. See ya next week, folks!

Credits:

This podcast was edited by Karl Castaneda.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can also purchase their album directly from the iTunes Music Store

Talkback

BroodwarsJuly 26, 2007

Never guess what I'm listening to you on.

Yeah, but E3 is a hardcore event not casual.

Cube was a good system especially if you were on a budget.

Also no demos and the like.

Yes. The thing is Nintendo is already the most proactive first party. Actual Metriod and Smash. I wouldn't put Mario in there. He is hardcore because he is an icon not because of his gameplay. As I said in another thread. Third Parties are sort of stuck on who to support.

I thought the licensing was much better now.

Thats because triple A game rarely come out of Sony and Microsoft.

Chicken and Egg.

To see the Sites and get the discounts.

Move to the East coast. Someplace like Gaylord Opryland Hotel.

Here in Nashville its cheaper to fly to Seatle then to Atlanta.

Dyack.

Things are just to crammed together now.

It is true. ESA needs to sort of go the opposite and have an independent show because they don't have the budget and really need the support.

I don't want GDC to turn into a new E3 because its for the developers to grow and develop.

Sandbag Jr.

Yes. I mean I'm sort of tired of the platforms. Though the Delfino dumps you off in locals to fight.

I wouldn't say they are really large except for the Bridge.

There are like 14 total "Shown."

No my question went unanswered. I'll never now.

I here Shining Force is really good.

Everyone sold more last month then May.

They are part of the Washed.

Its still pretty good.

Boo.

Yay.

Did you guys see the thread with the story from the ex-Rockstar employee.

Actually GTAIII not GTA. (Even though GTA was fun.)

I'm playing FF12 it looks really nice. Makes you wonder with games like that and those beautiful DS games.

I mean I just got a PS3 and I haven't played my Wii since Odin Sphere and FF12 came in. Once those are done I'll probably play it more. (I know PS2 games with a PS3 I get a lot out of its other functions.)

There can only be ONE. :P

Could you post the books name that BioShock is based off of please. (It sound interesting)

So by your definition Transformer the new movie is not art but Transformers: The Movie is art. (Hence all the kids that locked themselves in there room when Optimus Prime died.)

One of you died out there.

Are Comics consider art in general?

Where was the end talking?

MashiroJuly 26, 2007

Windyman my mom and sister both were extremely interested in Wiifit for they are both in an exercise kick. Nintendo did plan it out perfectly.

GOD why bring up the hardcore discussion thing again. Windy you are right on with this discussion. Yeah Nintendo fans will put up with a LOT. How can you scoff at the N64 era? Windy is right! Come on Nintendo fans lived off of going from 1 first party game to the next. Yeah Nintendo had amazing first party titles but there were so few third party titles that everyone had to live off what Nintendo gave us which took a while to get.

Windy's discussion is dead on right, sorry other guys he's right. Also 3rd party games on SNES? They were contractual obligated to make for that system!

Thank you Windy for bringing that up lol. Windy I agree with your side of the argument.

Lol moving along . . .

Shunning independent developers, bad. Agreed.

LOL Mickey confirmed, awesome.

Yeah but that's good about the stages, those stage designs like the final destination style stage are the best stages to fight on =) IMHO.

<3 <3 <3 Kirbys Dream Course. Awesome game, very awesome.

LOL booo pokemon battle revolution, super yay for RE4! CAPCOM BRING RE5 TO WII DAMN IT.

Wait what? Pay to be black? . . . LOL interesting indeed.

Halo will ruin the universe and everyone shall only play Halo ::rolls eyes::.

God no not Killer 7 X_X.

Ah Prince of Persia <3 <3.

ZOMG SPOILER ALERT!!

Dig dig dig . . . good show.

VuduJuly 26, 2007

I also agree that WIndy was right in the opening argument. Mike made we want to punch him.


Can we get a list of triple A titles released on the 360 (not upcoming, released) I'd like to know what we are dealing with here.

Gears of War and..... what?

BroodwarsJuly 26, 2007

Quote

Halo will ruin the universe and everyone shall only play Halo ::rolls eyes::.
Halo is the end of the world confirmed.
Quote

Ah Prince of Persia <3 <3.
Personally could never get into the original games. I just didn't like them.
Quote

Wait what? Pay to be black? . . . LOL interesting indeed.
Could really pay off in the scholarship department when going to college. I wonder how much I need to slip to be part Indian, female, and be directly related to an army vet?
Quote

Shunning independent developers, bad. Agreed.
Seconded.

MashiroJuly 26, 2007

Well truth be told Ceric, Prince of Persia: Sands of Time was what I was really referring to, I never got into any prior games of the series nor later (I got Warrior Within and was so disappointed I barely got past the beginning).

SvevanEvan Burchfield, Staff AlumnusJuly 26, 2007

Disagree with pretty much everything said about art in this podcast, but meh.

VuduJuly 26, 2007

Go on next week Evan and set them straight!

StogiJuly 26, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I also agree that WIndy was right in the opening argument. Mike made we want to punch him.
I agree, but add Karl to the list.

Yeah, Nintendo has money. But that's not the only limiting resource that stops Nintendo from magically doubling in size over night. When companies grow too fast quality suffers, corporate's goals get diluted, and customers lose interest because the company's values change. Organic growth takes time and resources (not just money).

EDIT: As I listen more, I am really siding with Windy here. I love how he just laughs at Mike when he's rambling on about how Metroid, Mario and Smash Bros don't stack up to Halo 3 and Assassin's Creed. And then Mike has the gall to use the term "standard fare" when referring to Nintendo's lineup. You don't get much more standard fare than Generic Shooter #103 and GTA Clone #67. And I really doubt that Halo 3 or Assassin's Creed (or even GTA4, which Mike forgot to mention) will have 60 hour quests.

EDIT #2: Was Karl even alive during the NES and SNES days?

EDIT #3: Oh God, the hits keep coming!

Mike: One of the biggest games this holiday season is Assassin's Creed from UbiSoft, which would never happen on a Nintendo system.
Windy: Except for Resident Evil 4.
Mike: Yeah, but that's like one game.
vudu: IIRC, Assassin's Creed is one game.

MashiroJuly 26, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: vudu
Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I also agree that WIndy was right in the opening argument. Mike made we want to punch him.
I agree, but add Karl to the list.

Yeah, Nintendo has money. But that's not the only limiting resource that stops Nintendo from magically doubling in size over night. When companies grow too fast quality suffers, corporate's goals get diluted, and customers lose interest because the company's values change. Organic growth takes time and resources (not just money).


QFT. Well said.

Phil!July 26, 2007

Oh my. I definitely side with Windy concerning that topic. For the first time ever, Mike and Karl made me want to grab them out of my iPod and beat the living crap out of them. Gah. Windy was spot on with that one. I, too, loved Windy's laughing when Mike brought up Nintendo's "standard fare".

Overall, great podcast this time. The actual topic at hand was decent, but you guys have had much better things to talk about. I do think that some games can be considered an art form, but not all.

MashiroJuly 26, 2007

Lol I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who felt that way Rachtman.

xaviorq8July 26, 2007

Ok, I haven't listened to an episode of this podcast in several weeks, and I hope they haven't all been reduced to such a juvenile level. Let me clarify something here: I'm not out to attack the podcast, though it shall likely sound that way. I haven't finished listening to it yet, and I'm about to have to go back to class too. I just had to comment though. Thankfully Mashiro has already said many of the things I aimed to point out, especially at the ridiculous idea of Nintendo just going "Hey, why don't we just double our size overnight since we have all this money!" Another thing is the E3 argument. Seriously, E3 badly needed to be changed, and I loved this years E3 in comparison to previous years. (No, I did not attend myself. I comment as a spectator.) In years past E3 had become nothing more than a big male-member contest between publishers with ridiculous cost much better served being invested into new games and technology. The new E3 certainly isn't perfect yet, but it's a step in the right direction. As to E3 being a "hardcore" event, hardcore being a label I despise as it doesn't actually have any real meaning whatsoever, E3 is an industry event. It isn't for gamers, whatever label they may fly on their flag. It is for the industry. It reflects the industry as a whole, and with the industry growing and expanding into a more mass media acceptance, E3 is going to change in the very same way. Gaming "journalist" are less important now, and in the future they will finally find just what a niche they have been representing over the years. E3 is on it's way to becomming a mass media event for the games industry. You want your uber-"hardcore" game events than hold your own, like PAX for instance. I wish I had more time to flesh this out properly, but I'm out of time. I'm sure my rushed response has not come across quite like I would have prefered, but I'll be back in a few hours to clear it up. (and finish the podcast)

CalibanJuly 26, 2007

Killer7 is a work of art, it's a masterpiece.

TrueNerdJuly 27, 2007

Oh, Mike and Karl. You claim that Nintendo has cut their resources in half, one devoted to hardcore games and the other to casual games. And yet, I am completely unable to remember the last time that we the Nintendo hardcore gamers have gotten as good a lineup as the one we're about to get for the rest of this year. Most years we get one premier title. This year we get three. Four, if you include Phantom Hourglass. The lineup for the rest of the year is pretty much as good as it could be for hardcore gamers and anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong.

Also, (I'm nitpicking here) Metroid Prime 2 didn't sell that well because Nintendo sent it out to die. They released it in between a little game called Halo 2 and, perhaps more significantly, the DS, which was the current object of many a Nintendo fan's affection, not to mention the marketing the DS stole away from Echoes.

BroodwarsJuly 27, 2007

and Echoes wasn't as good as its predeccessor.

RedgripmonkeyJuly 28, 2007

"People are waiting to buy an X-Box 360 for Halo 3"

I have a question for Nintendo...WHY DONT YOU COUNTER THE HALO SERIES...so far what I've seen from peers is, Halo = decent multiplayer shooter game(looks back at N64 Golden Eye..Where did you go!). All Nintendo has to do is release a shooter game with minimum story line campain mode and focus more on Multiplayer (Levels, Weapons, Modes, Chars) and BOOM...Half of those who own a Wii and are waiting for Halo 3 wont need to go buy a 360.

MashiroJuly 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Redgripmonkey
"People are waiting to buy an X-Box 360 for Halo 3"

I have a question for Nintendo...WHY DONT YOU COUNTER THE HALO SERIES...so far what I've seen from peers is, Halo = decent multiplayer shooter game(looks back at N64 Golden Eye..Where did you go!). All Nintendo has to do is release a shooter game with minimum story line campain mode and focus more on Multiplayer (Levels, Weapons, Modes, Chars) and BOOM...Half of those who own a Wii and are waiting for Halo 3 wont need to go buy a 360.


Well the easy answer is, Nintendo's never really done a FPS game in lines with Halo (Metroid is far more a FPA than FPS and it doesn't have the multiplayer that Halo players look for). Even looking back at GoldenEye, that was made by Rare.

If you want to know "where" goldeneye went, look no further than the Timesplitters franchise. Most of the key members behind Goldeneye went on to form Free Radical Design. Playing TimeSplitters: Future Perfect was loads of fun because it was very reminiscent of goldeneye while being challenging, funny and unique in it's own right.

I just don't see Nintendo really being the ones to make that "Halo"-esk game that some people want on the Wii.

TrueNerdJuly 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Ceric
and Echoes wasn't as good as its predeccessor.


To be fair, nothing last generation was as good as Echoes' predecessor. And Echoes was still ridiculously awesome.

Grey_NinjaTy Shughart, Staff AlumnusJuly 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: TrueNerd

To be fair, nothing last generation was as good as Echoes' predecessor. And Echoes was still ridiculously awesome.
So you're saying Metroid Prime was the best game last generation?



lol.

MashiroJuly 28, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
Quote

Originally posted by: TrueNerd

To be fair, nothing last generation was as good as Echoes' predecessor. And Echoes was still ridiculously awesome.
So you're saying Metroid Prime was the best game last generation?



lol.


For Cube? Yeah Prime is well . . . I don't want to call it the best ONE of the best is for sure. RE4, WW and ED come to mind as some of my other contenders for best GC game last gen.

Oh god, I already know I'm gonna rant and rave about this. If you're not happy with Mario, Smash, and Metroid, then you need to take a close look at yourself and ask what your expectations are. Is it a BAD thing that Nintendo doesn't have 100% of your gaming dollar? Is it a BAD thing that you want to buy an XBox 360? HUSH! You seem to want some sort of Nintendo market control, some Nintendo hegemony, it's a fanboi PIPEDREAM that is a ridiculous FANTASY! RRAAARRGGHHH!!! It's an AND system, Nintendo isn't competing, this is about INCLUSION instead of exclusion, and you should be mature enough to follow Nintendo and be fine with the idea of buying other systems and games. (whether you have the cash or impetus to do that is another question...)

...Besides, Nintendo already went 100% after hardcore gamers with the N64 and GC. Look where you guys led them.

... If there's anything I've learned as a Nintendo fanboi, it's that life isn't about winning. It's about having fun. It isn't about console wars or strongest hardware or being "hardcore" or being popular, it's about simply having FUN on your own terms, no hard feelings, no malice, simple, innocent, friendly, FUN. Nintendo's doing that, and it's giving me games that I'm sure I'll love, and I don't care if they're hardcore or not. Want an XBox 360? Go ahead, buy one. There's nothing wrong with that.

Geez, it's like everybody drank Ian juice or something.

...oh, you guys are talking about E3 now?

Hmm... you're right about the lack of smaller things at E3. /sad

Bah. Scrolling stage hater! A REAL Smash player can play on ANY stage!

I say "Zeebees!"

Didn't they revise upwards to 290? So it's really 230 huh? Oh well...

100,000+ per week is NORMAL for the DS in Japan...

Hurray Rockstar!!!!!! Hooray Rocksta on Wii!!!! Give us more! And new games too!

AND DON'T FORGET SPACE STATION SILICON VALLEY AND BODY HARVEST! Raaarrrgghhh!!!

...hmm... Well, I think you're underestimating the power of Halo 3. Really.

I still say that Svevan missing out on the art discussion is a darn shame.

Bioshock is connected to Ayn Rand? Oh god... I gotta... I don't have a... darn...darn.

Grrr. the time IS now! But anyways...

Oh boy, an hour podcast! *gasp!* *wheeze!*

MashiroJuly 29, 2007

Quote

It isn't about console wars


I beg to differ, the SNES Genesis war was one of my favorite periods of gaming!

BroodwarsJuly 29, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Quote

It isn't about console wars


I beg to differ, the SNES Genesis war was one of my favorite periods of gaming!


That was one of my favorite time periods period. We were at the height of the Cola Wars and then we move on to the console war. To top that computers were transition into everyones life. It was a great time.

I will believe that the Wii is an "and" system when MS publishes a game on it. (Like the DS and the GBA.)

TrueNerdJuly 30, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
Quote

Originally posted by: TrueNerd

To be fair, nothing last generation was as good as Echoes' predecessor. And Echoes was still ridiculously awesome.
So you're saying Metroid Prime was the best game last generation?



lol.


Yep!

Karl Castaneda #2July 30, 2007

Just wanted to let you guys know that we took a lot of your comments to heart and that they'll be addressed on this week's show.

Quote

Originally posted by: vudu
Quote

Originally posted by: ShyGuy

EDIT: As I listen more, I am really siding with Windy here. I love how he just laughs at Mike when he's rambling on about how Metroid, Mario and Smash Bros don't stack up to Halo 3 and Assassin's Creed. And then Mike has the gall to use the term "standard fare" when referring to Nintendo's lineup. You don't get much more standard fare than Generic Shooter #103 and GTA Clone #67. And I really doubt that Halo 3 or Assassin's Creed (or even GTA4, which Mike forgot to mention) will have 60 hour quests.

EDIT #2: Was Karl even alive during the NES and SNES days?

EDIT #3: Oh God, the hits keep coming!

Mike: One of the biggest games this holiday season is Assassin's Creed from UbiSoft, which would never happen on a Nintendo system.
Windy: Except for Resident Evil 4.
Mike: Yeah, but that's like one game.
vudu: IIRC, Assassin's Creed is one game.


This is pretty much how I felt during the discussion. I largely disagree with Windy's point of view, but the other two had such feeble arguments that he came out sounding like a genius. Which he's not!

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon

Bah. Scrolling stage hater! A REAL Smash player can play on ANY stage!

I say "Zeebees!"

AND DON'T FORGET SPACE STATION SILICON VALLEY AND BODY HARVEST! Raaarrrgghhh!!!


Quoted for truth.

EntroperAugust 03, 2007

It's "zeebz", not "zeb-ess".

Windy, try and keep these guys in line next time. face-icon-small-smile.gif

VuduAugust 03, 2007

Huh, I think I was MISQUOTED from somewhere.

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