Topic: "The Trouble With Nintendo"

[Kyosho]

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" what I was trying to say is that who cares if Nintendo isn't sales leader? They still sell well enough to keep them going and continue to reward their fans with incredibly good games"

So basically you are saying Nintendo does not need to attract or award their non-fans?

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it's the quality of Nintendo's games and the difficulty it takes to match that

eh.. that's kinda opiniated.  Imho, it's because

1) most multiplatform owners would rather get the 3rd party game for anythin but the Gamecube
2) Since the end of SNES, nintendo's 3rd party developers have decreased dramatically due to Nintendo not offering enough options to those developers

Online play is becoming the wave of the future.  Even though now it isn't that great on consoles, if you jump start on something new, the more variety of people you attract (Look @ EverQuest for PC).  Each generation gets more competitive amongst themselves.  

[mouse_clicker]

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So basically you are saying Nintendo does not need to attract or award their non-fans?

Did I say that? No. Don't put words in my mouth. I said that Nintendo has rewared those who have support them for so long, and that reward is in the form of extremely good games, which are for everyone, not just Nintendo fans.

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1) most multiplatform owners would rather get the 3rd party game for anythin but the Gamecube

You're making a completely unfounded blanket statement- don't do that.

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2) Since the end of SNES, nintendo's 3rd party developers have decreased dramatically due to Nintendo not offering enough options to those developers

That's complete and utter crap- I'd people to actually read my post  before they try to refute it.

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Online play is becoming the wave of the future. Even though now it isn't that great on consoles, if you jump start on something new, the more variety of people you attract (Look @ EverQuest for PC). Each generation gets more competitive amongst themselves.

Even on the PC, where an internet connection is almost standard, the only online PC games that thrive are the free ones. Everquest has what, some 300,000 users? That's not good even for a PC game- I hardly call that the next big thing. That wave is way out in the middle of the ocean, hardly breaking on shore as many seem to think it is.

 

[Ian Sane]

"Who says Nintendo is the loser? I think you completely missed the point of my editorial- what I was trying to say is that who cares if Nintendo isn't the sales leader?"

A lot of fans do and they should.  The sales leader gets the best third party support and the largest variety of games.  Personally I don't really care if Nintendo is the market leader I just want them to be in a postion where their consoles don't get the worst version of multiplatfrom releases and aren't always the console that gets "left out" when it comes to certain non-exclusive games (like GTA).  I want them to get back to the point the mainstream and gaming media isn't constantly bashing them.  It's frustrating as hell to miss out on games and have some of your favourite third parties completely ignore your console.  People don't like constantly owning the console of each generation that gets the least attention.  Therefore I think eventually a lot of them will abandon Nintendo if things don't improve.

"Memory card and disc space are very small obstacles- Factor 5 has released tools allowing developers to fit just as much on a Gamecube disc as on a PS2 or XBox disc, and there's nothing difficult about compressing a save file. It's just that third parties are lazy, and have gotten lazy because they haven't been poked and prodded enough into working hard."

You're making an excuse.  There shouldn't be any excuses.  A third party shouldn't have to use compression if they don't want to.  Lazyness isn't going to hurt Madden sales.  Having to buy a whole memory card just for one game is.  The problem with having smaller storage and telling third parties to use compression techniques is that it's rather elitist.  Realistically why should Nintendo care how much disc space a third party uses?  Nintendo's "holier than thou" attitude towards third parties has always hurt them.  Having smaller storage just isn't accomidating.  A tailor sells a big suit to a fat guy.  He doesn't sell him a small suit and tell him to stop being so lazy and lose weight.

Now like you said that's not a reason third parties aren't supporting the Cube.  But Nintendo's general dickheadish attitude towards third parties is.  Therefore it's important to be as accomidating as possible.  That means storage space and licensing fees that match or beat the competition.

[mouse_clicker]

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A lot of fans do and they should. The sales leader gets the best third party support and the largest variety of games.

I thought you'd say this, but I also thought you'd realise why it as irrelevant- I'm not saying Nintendo SHOULDN'T be the sales leader, but I see it more as a bonus than a necessity, because I have all I could ever need or want from Nintendo with them being in a strong but distance second.

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You're making an excuse. There shouldn't be any excuses. A third party shouldn't have to use compression if they don't want to.

I'm not making an exuse, it's the truth. You shouldn't have to use a popup blocker to surf PGC, but you do. I agree 3rd parties shoudln't need to compress, but that's no excuse not to. It shows how lazy they are. 3rd parties work around the PS2's general bitchiness to program for, so at least there's some motivation- they don't have to do that, but they do. And why? For sales. If they'd put that effort into their Gamecube games, they'd get sales on it as well. That's the whole point I'm trying to make- 3rd parties are too lazy to do anything that doesn't yeild them immediate results. That's why many people think there will be another videogame crash, because the same thing happened with the Atari.

And Nintendo is not a dickhead to 3rd parties- they're not angels, either, but don't exaggerate. They're even supportive of a lot of 3rd parties, like Sega, Namco, Capcom, Konami, and EA. In my humble opinion, that's much better than throwing money hats at them as Microsoft has done.
   

[Ian Sane]

"You shouldn't have to use a popup blocker to surf PGC, but you do."

That's not a very good analogy.  PGC supports itself by it's ads.  Nintendo doesn't support itself by using less storage.  I actually find that Nintendo has improved their third party relations but I don't think it's good enough.  They seem to be doing the bare minimum when really they should be as accomidating as Sony was when the PSX first launched.  They're not as big of dickheads now but they used to be and I think they should being doing more to convince third parties that they've changed.  I think we both agree that Nintendo is doing better in this area we just have different opinions on how much better they're doing.

"I'm not saying Nintendo SHOULDN'T be the sales leader, but I see it more as a bonus than a necessity, because I have all I could ever need or want from Nintendo with them being in a strong but distance second."

Well you're just stating what you personally think.  I actually am quite content with my Cube too though I see room for improvement.  However we're two people and we certainly aren't going to keep Nintendo alive on our own.  Out of the general Nintendo userbase I think there's a strong desire for them to do better and that's why I think a lot of people won't stay around forever without some change on Nintendo's part.

[mouse_clicker]

Oh, I agree Nintendo's 3rd party relations could definitely improve- indeed, unless they want to wait forever, they should actively dog them into developing for their console. Even if I don't agree with MS's methods of getting 3rd parties, I do admire their tenacity in doing so.

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Out of the general Nintendo userbase I think there's a strong desire for them to do better

Yes...

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and that's why I think a lot of people won't stay around forever without some change on Nintendo's part.

No. Ask any Nintendo fan if they're content and I almost guarantee you they'll resound an affirmitive. I'm not saying Nintendo couldn't do better, or that I don't want them to do better, just that even if they don't I'll still be incredibly happy, and I think you'll find almost every Nintendo fan agrees with me. Any better Nintendo gets is just icing on the cake.

[Renny]

I meant that I thought your response is very true, but didn't address what was said in the article. Though I don't agree with [everything in] the GR article. Nintendo has shown change, especially in 3rd-party relations as you said.

But at the same time, they do need to make a lot more progress. I'm beginning to think ignoring online games is going to hurt them next generation when Sony and MS have established reputations for solid online networks, where Nintendo will have to fight to make it known they have online games too. The same issue they have now with their media: their discs are only limiting to the most FMV-laden games [even F-Zero fit on one disc], but they're still feeling the effect of having lost developers over cartidges last generation.

[mouse_clicker]

FMV will become obsolete when the graphical advantage of it over real time graphics grows smaller and smaller, until the point where it disappears altogether.

And I don't adress everything in the editorial because not all of it is relavent and some of it doesn't support even the author's own point.

[AJL221893]

A very nice read, indeed.
So your saying the day Nintendo will come up on top again is when all graphics are so good they can't get any better? So all thats left to compare is gameplay? Makes sense, but that won't be for awhile. And once that does happen, who knows what'll happen next. Virtual reality might be introduced, some 3d type system.  

[Kyosho]

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You're making a completely unfounded blanket statement- don't do that.

I'm basing my judgements from the sales I have done as well as the opinions of multiconsole owners from other boards, in stores, and console gamers.  When was the last time you saw GC's multiplatformed 3rd party game soar in the charts?

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Even on the PC, where an internet connection is almost standard, the only online PC games that thrive are the free ones. Everquest has what, some 300,000 users? That's not good even for a PC game- I hardly call that the next big thing. That wave is way out in the middle of the ocean, hardly breaking on shore as many seem to think it is.

From the statement above, it doesn't appear that you play much PC.

currently 300,000+ users x $12.95 / month equals....

Let's also take in account Verant also has Planetside as well as the upcoming EQ2 coming out in addition to the amount of people who have played EQ and quit etc.  EQ is also big internationally as well.  I don't know where you get your statistics for this MC, but you're wrong here.  MMOFPS in general do not generate much profit because it's a new genre, MMORPG (if successful) has shown to thrive and not even show any signs of slowing down.  This is kind of swaying from the online issue, but it's to point out that if you can pioneer and keep afoot, then it WILL become "the next big thing"

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Ask any Nintendo fan if they're content and I almost guarantee you they'll resound an affirmitive. I'm not saying Nintendo couldn't do better, or that I don't want them to do better, just that even if they don't I'll still be incredibly happy, and I think you'll find almost every Nintendo fan agrees with me. Any better Nintendo gets is just icing on the cake.

I'm glad you would be happy, but unlike you I'm one of those Nintendo fans that looks for BOTH 1st party and 3rd party support for their games.  It decreases every Nintendo generation.  When the next Nintendo system comes out, i'll be even more hesitant in buying, as I'm sure i'm not the only one feeling this way.  I get the feeling each generation's "Nintendo fans" lessens.

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And Nintendo is not a dickhead to 3rd parties- they're not angels, either, but don't exaggerate. They're even supportive of a lot of 3rd parties, like Sega, Namco, Capcom, Konami, and EA. In my humble opinion, that's much better than throwing money hats at them as Microsoft has done.

Those are some of the big named companies.  In the past, much of the smaller companies have also done well for Nintendo.  I'd like to see more support for everyone in general.  They also need to cater more to those companies as well such as programming interfaces, the choice of medium, etc.  

[mouse_clicker]

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I'm basing my judgements from the sales I have done as well as the opinions of multiconsole owners from other boards, in stores, and console gamers. When was the last time you saw GC's multiplatformed 3rd party game soar in the charts?

Soul Calibur 2. Viewtiful Joe. And besides that, read my post- I explain why very few 3rd parties support the Gamecube.

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currently 300,000+ users x $12.95 / month equals....

And how much of that goes into supporting the servers, marketing, developing new titles, etc, etc. MMORPG's aren't profitable because not enough people want to play them. Get out of your jaded little gamer world where all your hardcore friends play them, because the overwhelming majority don't.

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I'm glad you would be happy, but unlike you I'm one of those Nintendo fans that looks for BOTH 1st party and 3rd party support for their games.

I don't care about you- I was talking about myself. Concern yourself all you want, burn a hole in your stomach, it's not my problem. I'm going to enjoy my videogames.

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It decreases every Nintendo generation.

Actually, the Gamecube has much better 3rd party support than the N64- hell, Square came back. That alone should say as much.

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I get the feeling each generation's "Nintendo fans" lessens.

Well, the feeling is unfounded, because I'm almost certain the Gamecube as a console is selling better than the N64 ever did.

As for 3rd parties, I already talked about them to Ian- I have nothing new to say.

Also, sorry I'm really pissed off- it's not because of you, it's because I have the crappiest trackball mouse in the world and it take's an hour just to copy a simple sentence to quote.

[Kyosho]

IN regards to your explanation for poor 3rd party sales, it's true that 3rd parties do it for the PS2 for sales.  It dont matter if 3rd parties are lazy or what not, everything is led by example.  Because Sony already had a large set of 3rd party developers, newer 3rd party developers would choose SONY over Nintendo because of MORE opportunities and a higher user base.  Despite what some people say about the recent companies that make games for PS2/Xbox but not GC, this actually hurts GC's reputation.  ANd because of this, other companies will look down and might also jump ship.  Their games may suck, but it obviously gives casual people a negative image of GC

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And how much of that goes into supporting the servers, marketing, developing new titles, etc, etc. MMORPG's aren't profitable because not enough people want to play them. Get out of your jaded little gamer world where all your hardcore friends play them, because the overwhelming majority don't.

Please explain why are they still around, evolving, and why are many developers diving into the genre.  300,000 is a small estimate.  When I played 4 years ago, it was at 250,000.  Since then, servers have been added as well as support.  Again, this does not mean NIntendo should make MMORPGs, this is just showing an example of what kinda success online gaming COULD bring.

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don't care about you- I was talking about myself. Concern yourself all you want, burn a hole in your stomach, it's not my problem. I'm going to enjoy my videogames.

Like I said before, good for you.  But it sounds like Nintendo is rewarding *you* not all fans

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hell, Square came back

And they decided on a multiplayer hack/slash game over a much needed original RPG.

Lastly, you don't have to quote for me if you don't want to. I just use quoting so I can read what I'm responding to.  

[mouse_clicker]

Kyosho, I've explained the 3rd party situation as much as I can- it was the majroity of my editorial. It's like you're not even recognizing that.

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Please explain why are they still around, evolving, and why are many developers diving into the genre. 300,000 is a small estimate.

Why is Microsoft still supporting the XBox after losing nearly a billion dollars on it last year? I can't claim to know every nuance of every company.

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ike I said before, good for you. But it sounds like Nintendo is rewarding *you* not most Nintendo fans.

I explained this, too- the "reward" for their loyal fans are great games, which can be enjoted by everyone. Nintendo's not picking favorites, my friend, and I'm sorry I made it sound that way.

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And they decided on a multiplayer hack/slash game over a much needed original RPG.

It IS an original RPG- have you read anything about the game? It's one of the best and most original titles Square has put out in years.

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Lastly, you don't have to quote for me if you don't want to. I just use quoting so I can read what I'm responding to.

I'm the same way- I'd feel really lost if I didn't use quotes. I just didn't want you think I was pissed off at you. I'm planning on getting at least an optical mouse soon, hopefully wireless as well.

[ThePerm]

iansane, the bubble will pop in five years when theres a new console generation and the rules have changed...userbase starts all over again.

[Luciferschild]

Mario that was one of the smartest posts I've ever seen in here. Wow. I would just like to mention that in the beginning gc game ads were terrible imo. The one that sticks out in my mind is mario sunshine, it was so bad that it made me not even want to try the game, which I later ended up buying and liking. Their ads are better now but still are outshined by x-box imo.  Ian Sane, you're post was extremely smart too darn what's going on here did the world's intelligence suddenly increase. I likewise am tired of people saying gore is bad. It depends on the game, I mean gore works for some games like say perfect dark. That game had great blood effects and it added to the gameplay, it made it funner. Mouse_clicker I realize that you were saying gore just for the sake of sales, and I don't have a problem with that statement but Nintendo seems to have a policy that there can't be any gore in any of their games which I think is pretty weak. Gamecube definitely doesn't have enough exclusive mature games, it practically doesn't have any. Making a few good mature games wouldn't compromise the other stuff Nintendo does, it would only give the console more variety.    

[mouse_clicker]

Lucifer, what Nintendo game would gore be a fitting addition to?

[Mario]

I dont see why Nintendo would put gore in any of their games, it wouldn't make sense, and it wouldn't result in higher sales of the game either.

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I thought you'd say this, but I also thought you'd realise why it as irrelevant- I'm not saying Nintendo SHOULDN'T be the sales leader, but I see it more as a bonus than a necessity, because I have all I could ever need or want from Nintendo with them being in a strong but distance second.

If Nintendo were the sales leader all the third parties would flock to Nintendo and Xbox and Playstation would be left with nothing but their less than steller first party efforts, and i would only have to buy one console.

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Soul Calibur 2. Viewtiful Joe. And besides that, read my post- I explain why very few 3rd parties support the Gamecube.

Except Viewtiful Joe isnt multiplatform and the GC version of SC2 had two obvious advantages over the other versions (Link + Advertising as "Only on Nintendo GameCube")...

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Actually, the Gamecube has much better 3rd party support than the N64- hell, Square came back. That alone should say as much.

Name every game Square has planned for GameCube. Ok i'll answer my own question, Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles. WOW LOOK OUT N64. Nah, seriously though, GameCube has much more third party support than the N64 ever had, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Capcom, Super Monkey Ball, Sonic, etc.

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Well, the feeling is unfounded, because I'm almost certain the Gamecube as a console is selling better than the N64 ever did.

Well i dont know how much hardware the N64 had sold at this point in it's lifetime, but N64 software sales were much higher than what GameCubes' are now, but GameCube software is still selling, so... we'll just have to wait a few years to judge.

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I explained this, too- the "reward" for their loyal fans are great games, which can be enjoted by everyone. Nintendo's not picking favorites, my friend, and I'm sorry I made it sound that way.

'Everyone' that buys either a new GC or 2 or 3 games that they may not want *coughzeldabonusdisk*

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Mario that was one of the smartest posts I've ever seen in here. Wow.

Thanks

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I mean gore works for some games like say perfect dark. That game had great blood effects and it added to the gameplay, it made it funner.

What new gameplay elements did the blood add though? Did it allow you to use it as a weapon, so when you get wounded you can throw your blood at the enemies eyes? No. It did add to the visual experience, but not the gameplay. I do admit though, a game like Perfect Dark would be a bit strange if there was no blood, and taking blood out, when blood would normally be there, isn't necessary.

And yes, i enjoy quoting too.
 

[mouse_clicker]

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If Nintendo were the sales leader all the third parties would flock to Nintendo and Xbox and Playstation would be left with nothing but their less than steller first party efforts, and i would only have to buy one console

Gah, am I typing in French here? What I MEANT was that Nintendo is certainly not doing bad with their current 3rd party support, and they've still creating the great games they have been for decades now. I know it'd be better IF they had more 3rd party support, but what I'm trying to say is they'renot bad off without it.

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Except Viewtiful Joe isnt multiplatform and the GC version of SC2 had two obvious advantages over the other versions (Link + Advertising as "Only on Nintendo GameCube")...

Yeah, I know- I had a brain fart and though "3rd party games" rather than "multiplatform" for a second.

But as for Soul Calibur 2, both the XBox and PS2 versions had their own exclusive characters as well, and to a lot of people Spawn and Heihachi are a lot better than Link.

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Well i dont know how much hardware the N64 had sold at this point in it's lifetime, but N64 software sales were much higher than what GameCubes' are now, but GameCube software is still selling, so... we'll just have to wait a few years to judge.

I'm almost certain you're wrong- I, too, don't know exact figures, but I'd bet money the Gamecube is selling better than the N64 was.

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Everyone that buys either a new GC or 2 or 3 games that they may not want  *coughzeldabonusdisk*

Again, people need to read my posts better- I was talking about games like Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Eternal Darkness, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Pikmin, Mario Kart: Double Dash, Super Mario Sunshine, Animal Crossing, etc, etc.

[Jordan]

How come Xbox, got GTA and Gamecube didn't?  Gamecube makes to many kiddy games, I'm thinkin of gettin an Xbox, they have Grand Theft Auto, Halo, etc.  Y doen't gamecube have any "really good" games like those?

[Mario]

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I'm almost certain you're wrong- I, too, don't know exact figures, but I'd bet money the Gamecube is selling better than the N64 was.

Total Software sales.

Wave Race 64 - 1,706,024
Wave Race Blue Storm - 265,158

Super Mario 64 - 5,943,556
Super Mario Sunshine - 1,201,895

NBA Courtside 64 - 874,745
NBA Courtside 2002 - 122,953

An exception to this rule is SSBM, which has sold 1,855,743 so far in the US, and is still selling amazingly well, and will most likely catch up to SSB's 2,546,810.

That's all i can go by, i cant compare console install bases because i dont know how much N64 sold 2 years into its lifetime. And if we are talking worldwide, im almost certain N64 was selling better than GameCube, since Nintendo Europe seems to have really screwed up with the GC.

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Again, people need to read my posts better- I was talking about games like Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Eternal Darkness, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Pikmin, Mario Kart: Double Dash, Super Mario Sunshine, Animal Crossing, etc, etc.

Well you didnt provide examples so i jumped on it .

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How come Xbox, got GTA and Gamecube didn't? Gamecube makes to many kiddy games, I'm thinkin of gettin an Xbox, they have Grand Theft Auto, Halo, etc. Y doen't gamecube have any "really good" games like those?

Because Nintendo didn't pay Rockstar a freaking crapload for a 2 year old PS2 port. And the GameCube doesnt 'make' games... bah, there's no point replying to this.

[mouse_clicker]

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That's all i can go by, i cant compare console install bases because i dont know how much N64 sold 2 years into its lifetime. And if we are talking worldwide, im almost certain N64 was selling better than GameCube, since Nintendo Europe seems to have really screwed up with the GC.

Two things- first, I was talking about consoles sales, not software sales. Second, those games you listed had what I call the "Halo Effect"- basically, those are the only games available to choose from. Just like with Halo and the Xbox's launch, the only good games people could get for the N64 at launch and for a very long time afterwards WERE those games. I think you'll agree the Gamecube has many more great games than the N64 already.

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Well you didnt provide examples so i jumped on it .

I thought it was implied.

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How come Xbox, got GTA and Gamecube didn't? Gamecube makes to many kiddy games, I'm thinkin of gettin an Xbox, they have Grand Theft Auto, Halo, etc. Y doen't gamecube have any "really good" games like those?

Because Nintendo didn't pay Rockstar a freaking crapload for a 2 year old PS2 port. And the GameCube doesnt 'make' games... bah, there's no point replying to this.

Yeah, I decided that before I replied at all.

[Mario]

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I think you'll agree the Gamecube has many more great games than the N64 already.

Hell yeah, the GameCube is by far my favourite console of all time and it's only halfway through it's lifespan. Good times.

[Kyosho]

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Hell yeah, the GameCube is by far my favourite console of all time and it's only halfway through it's lifespan. Good times.

Let's just wait for 2004 - appears to be a very important year for Nintendo considering the amount of criticism they are receiving.

[Zeth]

competition w/ nintendo brought out the best in thq w/ quest 64 on n64. it sure did. yup yup yup

[KnowsNothing]

Good read , Mouse_Clicker.  You stupid little GENIUS BABY. ;-P  It's what every Nintendo fan is thinking, put down into words....and posted......here.  YAY.

And also Mario, you didn't sound as dumb as you think you did.   (if that was confusing, it was a compliment)

lol silly me, I forgot there are THREE PAGES () of this madness.  I can't be arsed into reading them right now, so this post is in reply to the first page only.  Huzzah!