Author Topic: "The Trouble With Nintendo"  (Read 41261 times)

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Offline mouse_clicker

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"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« on: December 18, 2003, 06:32:57 PM »
Game-Revolution, by far my favorite videogame review website, has recently posted an editorial detailing Nintendo's problems and shortcomings in an editorial entitled The Trouble With Nintendo. I wrote a counter editorial largely based on my post in the Time Magazine thread, which I will send to them, but my email account is currently down. So while I'm waiting for it to get back up, I've decided to post it here for your critique. All comments are welcome, both positive and negative, as long as they are relevant.

EDIT: Eric Josue of Otaku Ezine has posted this editorial on his website, which you can find here.



Dear Game-Revolution and Kaanchy,

I’ve been a faithful reader of Game-Revolution for 7 years now, and I regard you as the best videogame review website on the internet- you’re unbiased, you’re fair, you’re intelligent, and you know what’s relevant to real gamers. And I know this editorial on Nintendo’s future was written out of concern, and I’m not here to bash it as I’m sure many fanboys are. However, that doesn’t mean I haven’t recognized the ignorance in it- indeed, had it been posted on any other website I would have thought it were purely for shock value and the increased traffic it brings.

Quite frankly, though, Nintendo's business practices are perfectly fine, exemplary even- you do realize they've only lost money for one quarter since going public some 40 years ago? Most other companies could never dream of being able to make such a claim. The problem, as I have always said, is the third parties. Nintendo makes the best games in the world- even if you don't care for their style, you have to admit their games are some of the finest made and most polished pieces of software on the planet- it's not a coincidence they have such an incredibly loyal following. This poses a conundrum for 3rd parties- when sitting on a shelf next to a world class Nintendo game, who's going to want to buy a mediocre 3rd party game that's riding more on image than quality? 3rd party games rarely do well on Nintendo consoles as of late because of the simple fact that most owners of Nintendo consoles would rather lay down their hard earned money for the assured quality of a Nintendo game as opposed to taking a gamble on a 3rd party game, which can range from being rare gems to little more than excrement hastily slapped on a disc. This used to not be a problem, back in the NES/SNES/Genesis days, and there's a very good reason for that- the only consoles 3rd parties could develop for were made by extremely talented 1st parties, which forced the 3rd parties to match that level of quality in order to catch the attention of the consumer and convince them to buy their game. Again, it's no coincidence that some of the best 3rd party games ever made were released during those two generations, and the bad ones nearly always floundered- quite the opposite of today.

Then along came Sony- not to disrespect the advancements Sony has made for the industry, and they are improving, but they created a console (the Playstation) completely devoid of a stellar 1st party, or really a good 1st party at all, which meant half-assed crappy games could sell much better than before simply because the consumer didn't have a choice. Conversely, 3rd partiers left Nintendo, whose consoles it was now difficult to garner sales for, requiring at least as much effort as Nintendo put into their own games. When they left Nintendo, all that was left was Nintendo, and, by association, Nintendo fans. Gone were the people who enjoyed a few of Nintendo games but really liked the diversity their consoles offered. Indeed, gone was the diversity altogether, gone to the Playstation. It's truly a testament to Nintendo's quality that their hardcore fans alone could not only support them in such bleak times but turn them an enormous profit as well. When we moved into the next generation, Microsoft released the XBox, which is based on the exact same principle as the PSX/PS2, that without the high quality 1st and 2nd parties, mediocre 3rd parties can thrive.

That's why I truly believe that it's not competition between multiple consoles that brings the best out in developers, but competition between each other on one console, at the very most two if both have extremely good 1st parties. I say this because it forces the 3rd parties to rise to the level of quality of the 1st party to catch the buyer's eye.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that Nintendo is doing all they can do- yes, sometimes they make some bad business decisions, but so does every company (especially Microsoft with the XBox- why no fortellings of doom for the console currently in 3rd place worldwide, not to mention losing hundreds of millions of dollars?), and Nintendo makes far less than most. It's the industry that needs to change, not Nintendo. Sony's 1st parties are gradually improving, but both the PS2 and the XBox are making it okay for 3rd parties to shove half-assed games out the door because they actually SELL. Eventually, though, when image and graphics no longer matter, when the difference in graphical ability between consoles is indistinguishable, actual game quality will be what drives sales, and it's then when Nintendo will rise once again.

As for image, that’s a subject Nintendo fans generally feel very strong about- the day Nintendo changes their image, the day Nintendo throws in blood and gore for the sole purpose of getting sales, is the day they’ve lost my business- I’ll turn away and never look back. If such elements are the result of a creative decision, that’s fine, but Nintendo’s always been about creating the best games possible, and it’s not their fault if people don’t recognize that. You forget that there is such a thing as dignity left in this world, and I’d rather Nintendo lag behind with the best games than nab the #1 spot bowing to the public’s demands. It’s no fluke that most of the developers that still do believe in dignity are Japanese. Nintendo's all I could have ever hoped for, multiplied a hundred times, and there are millions out there who agree with me- we’ve carried Nintendo this far, and have been greatly rewarded, and we will continue to carry them until the time comes when the public finally recognizes Nintendo for the incredible effort and heart they’ve poured into this industry for decades. In a world where a game can ride on image alone, Nintendo is holding true to the one mantra they’ve kept for so long, which is to make the best games possible. If that means they’re not the sales leader, so be it, as long as they still make a profit. I’d rather live as a poor man with a clear conscience than as a rich man with none at all.
"You know you're being too serious when Mouse tells you to lighten up... ^_^"<BR>-Bill

Offline Grey Ninja

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2003, 06:48:05 PM »
Thank you.
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I liked to crawl back into my brain
I think you know the game I mean

Offline Doerr

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2003, 07:08:41 PM »
Thats pretty good hopfully they will put it on the site. or at least reply.

Offline ThePerm

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2003, 07:20:43 PM »
good read mc, Sony needs to start havign a system of aproval...
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2003, 09:12:38 PM »
Very good.  Extremely good.  And I will also say thank you.

If your email is not functioning properly soon, perhaps one of us can send the editorial for you with your email as the reply-to address.
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2003, 09:16:35 PM »
THanks for the kind words, and that would very much be appreciated Hostile. Regardless, I hope my email is working again sometime soon.
"You know you're being too serious when Mouse tells you to lighten up... ^_^"<BR>-Bill

Offline Rancid Planet

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2003, 09:32:49 PM »
Wow, that was REALLY good.

The article was good too. But I swear if I have to read one more article about how nintendo is selling lots of cubes but they're still not doing good business for not caving into public opinion.

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2003, 09:37:36 PM »
I'll need an email address, as well as yours so they know who to reply to.

Actually, I've just been informed that I require sleep.  If your email is still not working and no one else has done it by then, I'll try to do it for you tomorrow.
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
YOUR IWATA AVATAR LOOKS LIKE A REAL HOSTILE CREATION!!!!!<BR><BR>only someone with leoperd print sheets could produce such an image!!!<BR>

Offline Berto2K

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2003, 10:03:35 PM »
That was an awesome read.  One of the best I have read in a long time.  Its like you took all our thoughts and were actually able to put them into words.

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Offline Urkel

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2003, 10:03:46 PM »
Nice post Mouse, though I fear it will fall on deaf ears.

Quote

That's why I truly believe that it's not competition between multiple consoles that brings the best out in developers, but competition between each other on one console, at the very most two if both have extremely good 1st parties. I say this because it forces the 3rd parties to rise to the level of quality of the 1st party to catch the buyer's eye.


My thoughts exactly.

Anyway, to be fair, I didn't find that editorial to be completely idiotic. I didn't agree with it, but at least it's not nearly as bad as the editorial's written by the mainstream press from journalists who know absolutely nothing about games or the games industry, yet they still somehow think they know exactly what Nintendo should be doing.

Also, I cannot believe he actually brought up the whole "OMG! I CANT BELIEVE NINTENDO SOLD RARE! WTF!!!!". I could understand if this editorial was written, oh, say... A YEAR AGO, but Post-Grabbed by the Ghoulies...

Sigh. I just wish that for ONCE, when these editorial writers bring up online gaming, they would at least acknowledge how costly it's been for Microsoft. Just once. Instead, they just make it sound like Nintendo is ignoring online for no reason whatsoever. All online is ever going to be, for this generation anyway, is a loss-leader. It may get people to buy a certain game, or even a system, but by itself online hasn't proven to a cash cow. For now. Maybe next generation, but not now.
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Offline ghostVi

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2003, 10:14:55 PM »
I'm bookmarking this. Thanks mc, IMO you've put to words the thoughts of many on this board.....

Offline Renny

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2003, 10:45:59 PM »
Very true. Though I don't see why you're directing this towards the article. The writer didn't argue against Nintendo's talent, but rather their excessive [in his eyes] conservatism. I'm on a bad sleep schedule, so maybe I'm just missing the incredibly obvious. I'll gladly eat my words if so.
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Offline Mario

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2003, 11:52:13 PM »
Well, i agree in some aspects mouse_clicker, however some things i need to say regarding this issue.

Quote

Originally posted by: mouse_clicker


Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that Nintendo is doing all they can do- yes, sometimes they make some bad business decisions, but so does every company (especially Microsoft with the XBox- why no fortellings of doom for the console currently in 3rd place worldwide, not to mention losing hundreds of millions of dollars?), and Nintendo makes far less than most. It's the industry that needs to change, not Nintendo. Sony's 1st parties are gradually improving, but both the PS2 and the XBox are making it okay for 3rd parties to shove half-assed games out the door because they actually SELL. Eventually, though, when image and graphics no longer matter, when the difference in graphical ability between consoles is indistinguishable, actual game quality will be what drives sales, and it's then when Nintendo will rise once again.


How exactly would you define quality though? I mean, some casual gamers have more fun playing Enter the Matrix than Wind Waker, ive seen it with my own eyes, and yes, they do actually try playing Wind Waker (because i force them), just for some bizzaro reason, they like Enter the Matrix better. Does that make them idiots who cant determine a good game from a bad one? If people enjoy simple (glitchy) games, then let them. Wind Waker and other Nintendo games are just too hard to pick up and play for some, unlike most of the stuff EA, Activision or Joe-Petrol-Station developer churns out. I think this is why Nintendo are re-thinking their philosophy to focuse more on simple games that Joe petrol station worker can enjoy, as well as hardcore gamers, like Wario Ware, which is a perfect example of a game for anyone.

What i think is wrong, is that people are only buying games they know exist. If you had never ever heard of ... say, Skies of Arcadia, and you saw it sitting on the shelf, you would not buy it, why would you? Sony and Microsoft market the hell out of their products, anything they see that's appealing they slap it in a pre-determined ad campaign and bam, the game gets exposure.

Here's an observation. There are more 'hardcore' Nintendo fans on the internet, than Xbox or Playstation fans, just go to any major site, and look in the forums, and you will see the Nintendo section is much more active than the others. Now i ask you to look at sales of multiplatform third party games from a different perspective, Nintendo gamers are usually more informed, since more of them frequent forums (call this a generalisation, whatever, try to prove me otherwise), hence they know by reviews, screenshots, videos, and impressions from their fellow gaming buddies, who share similar tastes to each other, which games are 'quality' games in their perspective, thus the games that we purchase.

The thing is, the average Xbox or Playstation owner doesnt frequent internet forums or anything like that, so they generally have no idea if a game is worth their money or not, they have to rely on the commercials they see, and over the years, their mindset has been set to "realistic games = good" due to the amount of exposure they get. This is why alot of crap sells on Xbox and PS2, because those people just dont know any better.

Supposedly Nintendo have started aggresively advertising in the US, and if they have (i wouldnt know i dont live in the US, therefore dont see many Nintendo ads :\ ), just look at the latest sales. How much better are Nintendo doing now huh? I bet you're all thinking "because they dropped the price you moron", and although that may be a contributing factor, its not the main one. Nintendo ADVERTISED that they dropped the price, and at the same time advertised many of their games to show people that they arent dropping out, and that they are still making great games, which helps counter the "oh gamecube is so cheap now must be chucking a dreamcast" conclusions that certain people have made. Hey, Nintendo dropped the price in Australia too, and it didnt really do much down here, the recent GameCube price cut in Japan also failed to build more momentum for Nintendo in Japan.

What im trying (and failing at? ) to say, is that a large percentage of games sales, are due to the advertising it gets. Word of mouth advertising is part of this(i could go on about this but i wont bore you ), but that doesnt work with every game (its sure working for SSBM and GTA3/VC though). And the actual quality of a game is useless, if nobody knows about it. Maybe advertising is what drives game sales?

But, in the end, Nintendo are in a very comfortable position. The fact that they spent less money on advertising than some other gaming companies, most likely is one of the reasons they are so profitable, and the recent losses they made, which were also the first losses they ever made, might have been perhaps because they reserved a large chunk of it for advertising this year? I dont know, perhaps im totally off the mark, but thats just a conclusion i came to. Of course most of their profit comes from their game sales, and the low manufacturing costs of their hardware, but other things most certainly also factor into it.

At least we can all be comfortable with the fact that Nintendo will most likely not go under for a long time, and i dont see them giving up making videogames ever, because there will always be people who buy the games they make, as long as they keep up the quality they have been achieving for the last... well forever, and continue to give us the games we want, Nintendo will live on forever.  

Offline Zeth

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2003, 01:13:22 AM »

Offline Mario

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2003, 01:29:28 AM »
^ well i was going to respond to you... but i guess i'll leave it alone.

Give me some examples and i'll tell you how well they sold on each console.

Offline Ymeegod

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2003, 02:55:06 AM »
"Supposedly Nintendo have started aggresively advertising in the US, and if they have (i wouldnt know i dont live in the US, therefore dont see many Nintendo ads :\ ), "

Yeah, it's been marketting quite a bit this year, saddly it's a bit late though--it should have been this prior IMO but at least they appear to be going the extra distance (read that nintendo had buggetted 150Million for the last quarter for 2003).   So yeah it has plenty of ads.

 

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2003, 06:33:50 AM »
Mario, I'm pretty convinced that those people have let themselves be brainwashed by mass media.  I play games with two people usually: my friends who all like Gamecube (even the Xbox owner may get one yet) and those who hardly play games at all.  The first group doubtlessly likes all the Gamecube games, but even the people that are not well associated with video games enjoy them.  But I have, on occassion, seen people that did not.  And they were usually Xbox or PS2 users and fanboys.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2003, 07:45:14 AM »
Remmy: Oh I agree, it was a very good article- I'd expect no less from Game-Revolution- but that's more reason for me to direct my attention to it. Too often you see poorly written, heavily misinformed articles that do little more than bash Nintendom and in my opinion those don't deserve any reply whatsoever, if only for the fact that their authors are so far beyond reason that nothing you say could shake them out of their mindset. It's rare that you see a well written, well thoughout editorial detailing Nintendo's problems, and I thought that deserved at least some sort of reply. Like Isaid, I know the author of the editorial wrote it out of conern, not scorn, and I think that's what really sets it apart. I think it's a good editorial, I just happen to disagree with it.

And surprise, Hostile, my email's still not working. If you could, send my editorial to info@game-revolution.com, saying it's from Eric Baker at mrbody54@prodigy.net (I can still recieve email, I just can't connect to my server and see them). Thanks a ton, man.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2003, 07:51:18 AM »
No problem.

Okay, I sent it to them and also to you. . . make sure you approve of what I said, etc. Basically I just told them that your email was down, but that you could still be contacted and I was relaying the message.  Best of luck.
HC: Honourary Aussie<BR>Originally posted by: ThePerm<BR>
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Offline jaz013

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2003, 07:53:59 AM »
Even so, I think they need to make some changes. Online it's not attractive to me (or hardly anyone I know), but having it there could be a great difference. They also should keep "styles", and don't make any drastic change on games (graphics, gameplay, type) from one game to another, that just confuses no-nintendo gamers, and drives them away (no all of us can see a game as "art"). The way nintendo way is approaching the industry in this days may see wrong, but, at least most of us, we don't work there, so then, we don't know what crazy ideas they are having to climb up again. Let's just hope they are not that crazy.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2003, 08:04:58 AM »
I didn't even mention online play because I thought it was obvious why Nintendo isn't supporting it- it doesn't make any money. Despite the XBox being pushed as an "online" console, XBox Live only has some 500,000 subscribers, and the PS2 even less. Nintendo has had far more experience with online play than any other company- every single Nintendo console has gone online at some point, so I think I'd trust them when they say online play is not profitable. I do think Nintendo should look into it, though, and see if there IS a way to make it profitable, but I don't think that will happen for quite a while.

And thanks so much, Hostile.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2003, 08:21:45 AM »
Again, no problem.  It was practically an honor sending something so good
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: "The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2003, 09:08:29 AM »
At the risk of being unpopular, though I thought both Game-Revolution's article and Mouse Clicker's response were well written and had some good ideas, I agree more with Game-Revolution.  In fact I sharply disagree with some of MC's main points.

"Quite frankly, though, Nintendo's business practices are perfectly fine"

A lot of Nintendo fans point to the fact that Nintendo has until recently always made a profit as proof that Nintendo is doing everything right and will continue to be successful for the long term.  I think that their current profitability is a bubble that will eventually pop if they continue in the direction they are going in.  Right now they’re surviving mostly due to the support of hardcore fans.  But how long are these fans going to support Nintendo if their console is always the “loser” of each generation?  How long are they going to put up with a lack of mature or third party games?  Until the recent price drop Nintendo had a pretty big problem: traditionally popular games like Mario and Zelda were not selling as well on the Cube as they did on the N64 because the Cube userbase wasn’t high enough and was limiting game sales.  That suggests to me that the Nintendo userbase is lowering (or was until the price drop anyway).  If Nintendo isn’t progressive I think less and less people are going to support them and eventually the profit bubble is going to burst.  If you want to see Nintendo’s business practices as perfectly fine check out the NES and SNES where they not only had profit but also market share and name recognition on par with Kleenex.

“the point I'm trying to make is that Nintendo is doing all they can do- yes, sometimes they make some bad business decisions, but so does every company”

I agree with you that as long as third parties can sell crappy games on other consoles they’ll ignore Nintendo and Nintendo really can’t do anything about that.  However I don’t think they’re doing even close to “all they can do”.  There are all sorts of stupid little issues that keep third parties from being supportive on the Cube.  Stuff like smaller memory cards, smaller disc storage, a controller that sucks for fighting games, higher licensing fees, etc.  All of these “problems” are Nintendo’s fault and most of them could have been anticipated and avoided from a mile away.  If Nintendo wants to truly bring back third parties they have to fix these issues.  They have to give third parties as few excuses as possible for not supporting their console.

“the day Nintendo changes their image, the day Nintendo throws in blood and gore for the sole purpose of getting sales, is the day they’ve lost my business”

Whenever someone talks about Nintendo going in a more mature direction they always bring up some ridiculous idea that somehow that means that Mario has to start killing people and painting the Mushroom Kingdom with blood.  That’s a really immature thing to assume or even suggest.  Nintendo CAN make games that appeal to the mature audience that have good gameplay and don’t compromise Nintendo’s principles.  Look at games like Eternal Darkness or Metroid Prime.  I didn’t hear anyone complain that those games compromised Nintendo’s principles.  How about Goldeneye which nearly everyone thought was one of the best games ever produced by Nintendo?  Nintendo also doesn’t have to make their existing kid friendly games dark and violent.  They can make them have more market appeal with them still being kid friendly and still being good games.  Not making their most popular franchise into a cartoon is not going ruin Nintendo.  Kiddy games are not always good and mature games are not always bad.

As for the online thing well I’ve always felt that Nintendo is being very short sighted about the whole thing.  Sure it may not be profitable now but it likely will be later.  I can understand them not making a huge MMORPG with huge server costs but something as simple as a peer-to-peer matchmaking service will not bankrupt them and will probably sell more games in the long run.  Online is also good for marketing.  The Cube looks inferior because the other consoles have it and it doesn’t.  Even if someone is never going to play online games the fact that they don’t even have the option if they choose to will make them think twice about getting one.  Plus Nintendo can’t just wait until online is profitable to enter the online market.  By then it will be too late as Sony and MS will already control the market.  I can sort of understand Nintendo not going online with the Cube but they sometimes come across as if they NEVER plan to go online.  That would just be a poor business decision.

Offline Kyosho

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2003, 09:47:51 AM »
^^^^^  excellent post.  Agree wholeheartedly.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:"The Trouble With Nintendo"
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2003, 09:51:45 AM »
Quote

posted by mouse_clicker:
As for image, that’s a subject Nintendo fans generally feel very strong about- the day Nintendo changes their image, the day Nintendo throws in blood and gore for the sole purpose of getting sales, is the day they’ve lost my business- I’ll turn away and never look back. If such elements are the result of a creative decision, that’s fine, but Nintendo’s always been about creating the best games possible, and it’s not their fault if people don’t recognize that.


Please read my post a bit better, Ian. I wasn't implying anything near what you thought I was.

"But how long are these fans going to support Nintendo if their console is always the “loser” of each generation?"

Who says Nintendo is the loser? I think you completely missed the point of my editorial- what I was trying to say is that who cares if Nintendo isn't the sales leader? They still sell well enough to keep them going and continue to reward their fans with incredibly good games. Even if Nintendo was slowly fizzling out, they would still be pumping out great games right until the end. Even if they were dead last they would still be pumping out great games, and I would still be proud to call myself a Nintendo fan. But they AREN'T dead last, and they AREN'T fizzling out, and just because the Gamecube doesn't sell as well as the PS2 doesn't mean it's in any sort of trouble at all.

As for the third parties, yes, I agree that Nintendo isn't the most supportive of them, but they HAVE adressed the issue and DO plan to change. And in any case, it's the third parties that are unwilling to change to get sales on Nintendo consoles. Smaller memory cards and smaller discs are NOT what keep third parties away- it's the quality of Nintendo's games and the difficulty it takes to match that. Memory card and disc space are very small obstacles- Factor 5 has released tools allowing developers to fit just as much on a Gamecube disc as on a PS2 or XBox disc, and there's nothing difficult about compressing a save file. It's just that third parties are lazy, and have gotten lazy because they haven't been poked and prodded enough into working hard.

Onto online play- just because Nintendo isn't supporting it now doesn't mean they won't in the future if and when it becomes profitable. They're not supporting it NOW because it ISN'T profitable. And obviously very few people even care enough about online play to pursue it, as is evident by sales of XBox Live and the PS2's online adaptor. Online play isn't going to become incredibly popular and profitable overnight. Really, Ian, I answered most of your points in either my editorial or my posts. I appreciate your concerns, just as I appreciated Kaanchy's, but you're being paranoid. Even if I'm wrong, and Nintendo IS on their way out, at least this line of thinking gives me the peace of mind necessary to truly enjoy their games.      
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